Damage in WvW needs nerf

[DemonSeed.3528]

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@coglin.1496 said:

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:I was running towards the south camp when from out of invis, a mesmer/mirage burst me and did 27K damage in one second. I'm not even kidding about the timing. He just came out of invis and boom I went down.

Attached the damage log. I'm not sure if he was using macro, but it was all done in a second. I had 2.8K armor and 25K HP but went down in 1 second.

Please nerf. These one-shot burst builds...literally unplayable.

https://imgur.com/wyUin9t

And what is your build precisely? I ask because it is extremely rellavent to the discussion. If you are running a defenseless glass cannon build and we're caught unaware by a glass cannon build it is an entirely different discussion than a full soldiers style of build.

I've been hit by these combos on my warrior with 28-30k hp and about 3.2k armor - fun fact is that their dazes/stuns can also go through warrior bubbles, but deadeyes cannot use their mark and stolen skills through bubble (I tested thoroughly with my deadeye, and with regards to the mes part, I was getting hit everytime I came across this mes while I was inside my bubble with his combos). There was one streamer that even said it's useless even if you went as high as 32k hp cos it'd just drop you anyway with that diarrhea combo lol. Fun times.

WoD blocks only projectiles. Most of a mesmer's burst has nothing to do with projectiles.

Yes, but are deadeye marks/stolen abilities considered projectiles? I just thought it's a bit inconsistent between the two.

[cgMatt.5162]

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@"cgMatt.5162" said:I get these too

17k Backstab

from stealth on Engi 25k armor.

I wish I had 25k armor :(All joking aside, when was that pic taken? Was it a daredevil or deadeye? It's probably dd, but not sure if that can be recent. Would like to know though. Did you mean 2.5k armor? What is your hp and gear stat?

Missing decimal >.<

Daredevil D/P happened within the last month (EU/NA servers) vs stat spread like this http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlUUh+uY7Ww+KQ+FA-j1BXAByq+TI6AEWJDp7P8gSQAUGZgShAAJAzn8BAGahWoFahWo57UOlZ5UOlZ5UOlT5UOSBExQL-w

[Sleepwalker.1398]

Dodge will not save you all the time.You see the torch skill and mesmer go invisible and start your dodges, whats to say if the mesmer added "Mass Invisibility".

[LetoII.3782]

Being able to hit multiple buttons in rapid sequence predates gaming mice, and does not requires them.

[Helly.2597]

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Oozo.7856 said:

@Kirnale.5914 said:Jump dodges can be easily done without macro.

100% jump dodges throughout an entire movie = macro

It means they can hit two keys at the same time and had enough endurance to dodge 100% of the time. It's seriously not complicated, and not worth a macro.

I really don't understand people who think that jump dodging 100% of the time means you're using a macro. If pressing 2 buttons at a time seems like a task to you you've got to reevaluate your personal skill level. Then again, I've been accused of using macros on my videos when I even have my keyboard onscreen for everyone to see.

It is actually laughable to me that people think that most good mesmers are using a macro for their burst as well. Using a macro to pull of a burst is just going to make you predictable and easy to kill since all it takes is one competent opponent to learn how to dodge it. As far as NA roaming mesmers, the 5 I consider the best don't use macros guaranteed, and I have never come across a any class that stood out as having a lot of macro users. Hey what do I know though, only played since launch almost exclusively WvW.

People claim getting 1 shot is rampant with these builds out there, but I can count on my hand the number of times since PoF I have been 1 shot by any class let alone mesmers and that is having played marauder revenant and marauder core guardian the majority of the time since PoF launch. The hardest thing to admit is that you're getting outplayed.

[LetoII.3782]

Buff warrior dps tho

Oh and Warrior speed

Maybe another auto-endure pain

[EremiteAngel.9765]

@Helly.2597 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Oozo.7856 said:

@Kirnale.5914 said:Jump dodges can be easily done without macro.

100% jump dodges throughout an entire movie = macro

It means they can hit two keys at the same time and had enough endurance to dodge 100% of the time. It's seriously not complicated, and not worth a macro.

I really don't understand people who think that jump dodging 100% of the time means you're using a macro. If pressing 2 buttons at a time seems like a task to you you've got to reevaluate your personal skill level. Then again, I've been accused of using macros on my videos when I even have my keyboard onscreen for everyone to see.

It is actually laughable to me that people think that most good mesmers are using a macro for their burst as well. Using a macro to pull of a burst is just going to make you predictable and easy to kill since all it takes is one competent opponent to learn how to dodge it. As far as NA roaming mesmers, the 5 I consider the best don't use macros guaranteed, and I have never come across a any class that stood out as having a lot of macro users. Hey what do I know though, only played since launch almost exclusively WvW.

People claim getting 1 shot is rampant with these builds out there, but I can count on my hand the number of times since PoF I have been 1 shot by any class let alone mesmers and that is having played marauder revenant and marauder core guardian the majority of the time since PoF launch. The hardest thing to admit is that you're getting outplayed.

What is there to 'outplay' though when they are catching you out with a burst from invis that downs you in 1 second?This isn't I won because I outplayed you.

If you guys watched the 2 Vallun stream links I posted, where he got caught by the 1-shot mesmer, no reflexes in the world will save you from that.Taking into account the burst came from invis, with possible lag/delay from connection, and human processing speed, how in the hell are we supposed to survive such 1 second killer bursts? Especially if our attention was already elsewhere in a group fight for example?

Vallun was probably way glassier than I am but I went down in the same way as he did. 1 second.

[X T D.6458]

@Bish.8627 said:

@X T D.6458 said:Yea Mesmer burst damage is ridiculous, and has been for some time. Anet continues to buff their damage while stealth is still unbalanced and broken, power creep is still unbalanced and broken. Balance department doesn't know what they are doing and doesn't care about wvw.

Mesmer power burst and mirage condi application is way over the top.Firebrand healing and sustain is way too powerful.Thief still broken because of stealth spam.Holosmith damage is way over the top.Warriors are still broken in small scale.Rev is a poorly constructed class, and power damage is over the top.Necro is mostly forced into one poorly designed spec.Ele still garbage.

Stealth is broken as always.CC spammed like crazy, like always.

GG balance department, keep up the fabulous job.

Gave you a thumbs up, but do disagree with you moderately. Holosmith and necro. You probably play necro, as do I, but both reaper and scourge need toning down. Reaper needs either changes to shroud so they don't do good damage while having 2 lives and scourge needs less condi application. Holosmith does ok damage, but no where near mesmer, thief, ranger, rev (hammer) and ele (staff) not to mention the Holosmith moves are massively telegraphed and literally flashing lights at you to dodge. Holosmith right now, is the only fully balanced profession, mid reward but high risk, compared to mesmer very low risk high reward.

Warrior is so nerfed now I love seeing the rare warrior roamer on my rev, engi or necro, gg ez. Ele other than staff is garbage I agree. Rev is ok, but does need work, hammer can do good damage and they can survive a good amount of damage, but that is all. And finally firebrand is fine, my holo can do ok against their healing, but I try not to waste time on the zerg builds and focus the spike damage aoe guys.

I agree with thief and mesmer fully.

Main problem with Scourge is not necessarily balance, but design. None of the Scourge skills do enough damage on their own, the only way to kill anything is to Shade Spam. This is why people are instantly bombarded by all those conditions at once, it is not coming from one skill, but rather 4-5 skills used in quick succession in an aoe ring.

Shade skills require life force to use, which require lots of deaths around the necro to fuel them. Therefore bringing high damage, and killing quickly is necessary which further encourages the shade spamming. Shades skills are also used for defensive purposes, barriers/cleanses etc, so when you are spamming them all for offense, you are vulnerable and unable to use them for defense. This is the opposite of what anet intended the Scourge to be used for, as a supportive spec.

I haven't played Reaper since PoF came out, so I cant comment much on the current state. But any melee oriented class/spec will have a difficult time in this era of pirateshipping and aoe/cc spam fest.

I absolutely hate double invulns on a class...warriors, engis etc. I really wish these were nerfed for wvw.

[sephiroth.4217]

@"X T D.6458" said:

Ele still garbage.

Is it tho? I have to agree damage is "slightly" too high.

[Svarty.8019]

What's the betting they put it down to something "doing more damage than was intended"? It's bound to be blamed on a mistake on the programmer's side and not design, when It's clear to all and sundry that this competitive crisis is down to design, not implementation.

[Helly.2597]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@Helly.2597 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Oozo.7856 said:

@Kirnale.5914 said:Jump dodges can be easily done without macro.

100% jump dodges throughout an entire movie = macro

It means they can hit two keys at the same time and had enough endurance to dodge 100% of the time. It's seriously not complicated, and not worth a macro.

I really don't understand people who think that jump dodging 100% of the time means you're using a macro. If pressing 2 buttons at a time seems like a task to you you've got to reevaluate your personal skill level. Then again, I've been accused of using macros on my videos when I even have my keyboard onscreen for everyone to see.

It is actually laughable to me that people think that most good mesmers are using a macro for their burst as well. Using a macro to pull of a burst is just going to make you predictable and easy to kill since all it takes is one competent opponent to learn how to dodge it. As far as NA roaming mesmers, the 5 I consider the best don't use macros guaranteed, and I have never come across a any class that stood out as having a lot of macro users. Hey what do I know though, only played since launch almost exclusively WvW.

People claim getting 1 shot is rampant with these builds out there, but I can count on my hand the number of times since PoF I have been 1 shot by any class let alone mesmers and that is having played marauder revenant and marauder core guardian the majority of the time since PoF launch. The hardest thing to admit is that you're getting outplayed.

What is there to 'outplay' though when they are catching you out with a burst from invis that downs you in 1 second?This isn't I won because I outplayed you.

If you guys watched the 2 Vallun stream links I posted, where he got caught by the 1-shot mesmer, no reflexes in the world will save you from that.Taking into account the burst came from invis, with possible lag/delay from connection, and human processing speed, how in the hell are we supposed to survive such 1 second killer bursts? Especially if our attention was already elsewhere in a group fight for example?

Vallun was probably way glassier than I am but I went down in the same way as he did. 1 second.I'd probably pan my camera more than he does since he didn't he gets punished seems about right. Plays glassy build, tunnel visions and get punished for it. I bet if you dodge that mesmers burst he's dying just as quickly to Vallun or an axe 2 by a power reaper.

[X T D.6458]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@"X T D.6458" said:

Ele still garbage.

Is it tho? I have to agree damage is "slightly" too high.

Yea, sorry forgot to add more to the line about Eles. The problem is that eles basically are stuck with 2 main roles (not builds, roles). Healbot and glass cannon, a class with so many skills, and so much potential and is limited to 2 roles that can be done better by other classes. Healbot is still strong in a way, but Minstrel Firebrand is much better imo for personal and group healing and sustain. The damage can be outdone by other classes not running full glass cannon builds and sacrificing everything to get higher damage.

[sephiroth.4217]

@X T D.6458 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

Ele still garbage.

Is it tho? I have to agree damage is "slightly" too high.

Yea, sorry forgot to add more to the line about Eles. The problem is that eles basically are stuck with 2 main roles (not builds, roles). Healbot and glass cannon, a class with so many skills, and so much potential and is limited to 2 roles that can be done better by other classes. Healbot is still strong in a way, but Minstrel Firebrand is much better imo for personal and group healing and sustain. The damage can be outdone by other classes not running full glass cannon builds and sacrificing everything to get higher damage.

I won't run support ele anymore because of FB but I'm yet to see anything hit higher than a glass cannon Ele... Just sucks if a juvenile brown bear farts in your direction, you find yourself knocked out on the floor.

[Jiminy.8340]

@Helly.2597 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@Helly.2597 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Oozo.7856 said:

@"Kirnale.5914" said:Jump dodges can be easily done without macro.

100% jump dodges throughout an entire movie = macro

It means they can hit two keys at the same time and had enough endurance to dodge 100% of the time. It's seriously not complicated, and not worth a macro.

I really don't understand people who think that jump dodging 100% of the time means you're using a macro. If pressing 2 buttons at a time seems like a task to you you've got to reevaluate your personal skill level. Then again, I've been accused of using macros on my videos when I even have my keyboard onscreen for everyone to see.

It is actually laughable to me that people think that most good mesmers are using a macro for their burst as well. Using a macro to pull of a burst is just going to make you predictable and easy to kill since all it takes is one competent opponent to learn how to dodge it. As far as NA roaming mesmers, the 5 I consider the best don't use macros guaranteed, and I have never come across a any class that stood out as having a lot of macro users. Hey what do I know though, only played since launch almost exclusively WvW.

People claim getting 1 shot is rampant with these builds out there, but I can count on my hand the number of times since PoF I have been 1 shot by any class let alone mesmers and that is having played marauder revenant and marauder core guardian the majority of the time since PoF launch. The hardest thing to admit is that you're getting outplayed.

What is there to 'outplay' though when they are catching you out with a burst from invis that downs you in 1 second?This isn't I won because I outplayed you.

If you guys watched the 2 Vallun stream links I posted, where he got caught by the 1-shot mesmer, no reflexes in the world will save you from that.Taking into account the burst came from invis, with possible lag/delay from connection, and human processing speed, how in the hell are we supposed to survive such 1 second killer bursts? Especially if our attention was already elsewhere in a group fight for example?

Vallun was probably way glassier than I am but I went down in the same way as he did. 1 second.I'd probably pan my camera more than he does since he didn't he gets punished seems about right. Plays glassy build, tunnel visions and get punished for it. I bet if you dodge that mesmers burst he's dying just as quickly to Vallun or an axe 2 by a power reaper.

How precisely do you dodge burst from stealth?

https://twitch.tv/videos/220700118?t=02h46m25s

and

https://twitch.tv/videos/220700118?t=02h55m31s

[DeceiverX.8361]

This build is nothing new and has been used for years. If I weren't on my laptop I'd upload a screen of mine where I random-dodged the combo and still l got hit for a 9k The Prestige from the disengage into S/T after their BT and noclone distortion.

The issue, similar to D/P signet thief, is how it pretty much lacks a tell and how safe it is to execute given its ability to immediately swap into chained invulns and stealth.It's not that it deals too much damage or that stats are too inflated in WvW so much as it's pretty much impossible to see coming and respond to the burst, and even if can randomly dodge, it has means to escape with relative ease.

It's like asking to nerf backstab. Do you think power D/D thief is OP? No. Why? Because you can see the BV'ed backstab coming since it's not set up from stealth and is preceded by another hit that sets it up. Stunbreak, dodge, and the whole skill and combo is negated and they're at a hard disadvantage because the rest of the kit is horrible to fight toe-to-toe with

It's just hiding that setup part like on D/P signet thief or stealth mesmer is a huge issue and appears to break the skill.

Don't go after the damage. Go after the broken mechanics of being able to hide tells entirely and burst without them. Because without the stealth, this build is straight garbage and otherwise only wins by outplaying the hell out of you, in which case... that's totally fine. The fight just ends faster.

[bq pd.2148]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:It's like asking to nerf backstab. Do you think power D/D thief is OP? No. Why? Because you can see the BV'ed backstab coming since it's not set up from stealth and is preceded by another hit that sets it up. Stunbreak, dodge, and the whole skill and combo is negated and they're at a hard disadvantage because the rest of the kit is horrible to fight toe-to-toe with

It's just hiding that setup part like on D/P signet thief or stealth mesmer is a huge issue and appears to break the skill.

you dont need any weapon skill to stack enough stealth for an unpredictable backstab. so in that regard d/d is as good as d/p, but for what comes after the backstab d/p is mostly better. if it succeed tho, then it doesnt matter. most thieves dont deal much damage with their backstab, if you get some to over 20k, then you are running very glassy no matter if d/p or d/d and will still have a hard time after a failed attempt.i am also not sure if you can even compare backstab to mesmer one, cause backstab has 0 tell, i havent been oneshot by a mesmer for ages tho, as they dont even get near me without me noticing. as tradeoff, backstab does way lower damage then mesmer burst.

BTT:with the amount of sustain currently in the game, the damage is just fine. you cant nerf one without the other. currently we got the ability to build for very offensive and very defensive ones, while more balanced builds mostly are kinda weak. this leads to fights being either instant or infinite. nerfing damage and sustain might give us fights that take a while but do end. in that case numbers will again be more important then it is now and groupplay to coordinate your damage and support instead of : 3,2,1 - spamm!but how the combat will look like, how long fights should last, that is a gamedesgin question not a balance question. balancewise current damage is fine. but you might not like the current design of the fights, to change this we would need to tone alot of things down not just one thing or one class or one build, that wont do anything for the better.

[XenesisII.1540]

@Jiminy.8340 said:How precisely do you dodge burst from stealth?

Become inhuman and hope you get psychic powers, being able to mind read those stealth players works wonders.

[ArthurDent.9538]

Just remember , anyone who dies to a power mesmer is just a bad player and should probably uninstall. - Mesmer forum

[Aeolus.3615]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:Just remember , anyone who dies to a power mesmer is just a bad player and should probably uninstall. - Mesmer forum

Show me a video of a guardian with mace shield wining to a mesmer that is not AFK :)Since is my weapon set up i would love really to see how a mesmer player would deal with it, dodges, blocks than get bursted, it is just delaying the inevitable.

[K THEN.5162]

MOM GET THE CAMERA I'M FAMOUS!

I greatly appreciate the attention and I hope you don't mind me sneaking into this discussion =)

First things first, I'd like to attempt to prove that I'm not using macros by showing my keybindings below...and before you ask, yes I can literally only move forward XDPlease don't do jumping puzzles with this set ^

Next thing I'd like to address is the difficulty of the burst: Though it is pretty much muscle memory at this point, it took me quite a lot of practice and repetition to get the rotation down. My personal max damage rotation involves 9 button presses in the span of a second, that being Mirrorblade - Diversion - Mantra Charge 1 - Mindwrack - Mind Stab - Weapon Swap - Mantra Charge 2 - Blurred Frenzy - Cry of Frustration. So from this you can probably see why I don't have A, S, or D binded to movement.

Also I am in full glass right down to the scholars runes so let me outline the pros and cons of my build:Pros:

• Highest untelegraphed burst in the game
• Access to high stealth up time (thank you Prismatic Understanding)
• A bunch of "OH $H!T" buttons via stunbreaks, stealth, and immunities
• I look friggen fabulous

Cons:

• A small gust of wind puts me into the downstate
• I have 1 condi cleanse...on a 30 second cooldown
• Limited Mobility (I have base movement speed and a blink on a 24 second cd)...although mirage can fix this
• Easily countered by passive immunities

Now the question is, is it op or not? Well, I actually think it is. The build instantly places 20-25 stacks of vulnerability on my opponent which pretty much renders armor values irrelevant unless you have 3.5k+. This inherently pigeon holes all the other classes to run passive immunities such as Endure Pain, Instant Reflexes, Signet of Stone, and Elixir S, a mechanic in this game I find too forgiving to bad plays. That being said, there are currently quite a lot of unhealthy to downright oppressive mechanics in this game right now such as the entire condi system (application, clearing, and damage), hacking, might to weakness corruption, stealth stacking (I'm guilty of this), scourge, passives, and many more. So while I think power mesmer should be adjusted in some fashion, I do believe it is not the most toxic thing in WvW right now...but it's definitely up there.

Happy WvWing!

[MedievalThings.5417]

@"K THEN.5162" said:MOM GET THE CAMERA I'M FAMOUS!

I greatly appreciate the attention and I hope you don't mind me sneaking into this discussion =)

First things first, I'd like to attempt to prove that I'm not using macros by showing my keybindings below...and before you ask, yes I can literally only move forward XDPlease don't do jumping puzzles with this set ^

Next thing I'd like to address is the difficulty of the burst: Though it is pretty much muscle memory at this point, it took me quite a lot of practice and repetition to get the rotation down. My personal max damage rotation involves 9 button presses in the span of a second, that being Mirrorblade - Diversion - Mantra Charge 1 - Mindwrack - Mind Stab - Weapon Swap - Mantra Charge 2 - Blurred Frenzy - Cry of Frustration. So from this you can probably see why I don't have A, S, or D binded to movement.

Also I am in full glass right down to the scholars runes so let me outline the pros and cons of my build:Pros:

• Highest untelegraphed burst in the game
• Access to high stealth up time (thank you Prismatic Understanding)
• A bunch of "OH $H!T" buttons via stunbreaks, stealth, and immunities
• I look friggen fabulous

Cons:

• A small gust of wind puts me into the downstate
• I have 1 condi cleanse...on a 30 second cooldown
• Limited Mobility (I have base movement speed and a blink on a 24 second cd)...although mirage can fix this
• Easily countered by passive immunities

Now the question is, is it op or not? Well, I actually think it is. The build instantly places 20-25 stacks of vulnerability on my opponent which pretty much renders armor values irrelevant unless you have 3.5k+. This inherently pigeon holes all the other classes to run passive immunities such as Endure Pain, Instant Reflexes, Signet of Stone, and Elixir S, a mechanic in this game I find too forgiving to bad plays. That being said, there are currently quite a lot of unhealthy to downright oppressive mechanics in this game right now such as the entire condi system (application, clearing, and damage), hacking, might to weakness corruption, stealth stacking (I'm guilty of this), scourge, passives, and many more. So while I think power mesmer should be adjusted in some fashion, I do believe it is not the most toxic thing in WvW right now...but it's definitely up there.

Happy WvWing!

It takes very little effort to learn the rotation. Stuff like this is the reason I stopped playing my mesmer, because it was next to 0 risk and all reward. It's broken and shouldn't be in game, like the myriad of other issues people are mentioning.But, there are a LOT of people who DO have it macro'd.Second, and the point I said many, many posts ago: NO class should be able to fire off that many skills during the time that most classes can fire off 1 (possibly 2).

[Ok I Did It.2854]

This is a doubled edged blade to fix, I love playing necro in WvW, and yes it can put out some serious damage, but 2 things Anet need to fix in WvW are.

Condi spamBoon spam

I watched a warrior today run threw an entire zerg of enemies and took no damage, I seen a thief do the same thing, it seems like boon stripping is about as much use as condi spamming, you can strip condis ( or resistance ) as fast as they are put on, on the flip side you can replace boons as fast as they are stripped,

So yea they really need to look at fixing this issue as both are completely out of hand, but none of this can be fixed until they separate WvW from PvE, and give us WvW only version of skills.

[MadBomber.3719]

WvW hasnt really been condi spam for a while (since they nerfed Epi). Meta has largely shifted more towards power again.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:It's like asking to nerf backstab. Do you think power D/D thief is OP? No. Why? Because you can see the BV'ed backstab coming since it's not set up from stealth and is preceded by another hit that sets it up. Stunbreak, dodge, and the whole skill and combo is negated and they're at a hard disadvantage because the rest of the kit is horrible to fight toe-to-toe with

It's just hiding that setup part like on D/P signet thief or stealth mesmer is a huge issue and appears to break the skill.

you dont need any weapon skill to stack enough stealth for an unpredictable backstab. so in that regard d/d is as good as d/p, but for what comes after the backstab d/p is mostly better. if it succeed tho, then it doesnt matter. most thieves dont deal much damage with their backstab, if you get some to over 20k, then you are running very glassy no matter if d/p or d/d and will still have a hard time after a failed attempt.i am also not sure if you can even compare backstab to mesmer one, cause backstab has 0 tell, i havent been oneshot by a mesmer for ages tho, as they dont even get near me without me noticing. as tradeoff, backstab does way lower damage then mesmer burst.

BTT:with the amount of sustain currently in the game, the damage is just fine. you cant nerf one without the other. currently we got the ability to build for very offensive and very defensive ones, while more balanced builds mostly are kinda weak. this leads to fights being either instant or infinite. nerfing damage and sustain might give us fights that take a while but do end. in that case numbers will again be more important then it is now and groupplay to coordinate your damage and support instead of : 3,2,1 - spamm!but how the combat will look like, how long fights should last, that is a gamedesgin question not a balance question. balancewise current damage is fine. but you might not like the current design of the fights, to change this we would need to tone alot of things down not just one thing or one class or one build, that wont do anything for the better.

This just isn't true. Dodge after CnD and stab is guaranteed to fail unless chasing is made part of the build, which will cut damage at minimum by nearly 18%. You also always know at the very least a stab is coming and a 3 second window of when it's coming when against D/D. Popping Aegis for example shuts down the build, because then CnD can't even be chained since it'll whiff, not put the thief in stealth, and cost them 12 init on two failed bursts. It's worth noting that per unit of time spent in stealth, D/P is also more initiative efficient, 100% dependable, and can inflict blind etc. on the enemy while stacking it.

D/P OTOH can just run BD on DrD and near-permanently stack stealth while getting better damage modifier access, disengage, and out-of-stealth utility.

Losing to D/D is pretty much just a lack of kit awareness and/or the person getting straight-up outplayed or having very slow reflexes. People are playing D/P signets often these days because of the realization you can stab most roaming builds for 15-20k with what is objectively zero tell even from great distances due to its non-hit easily-stacked stealth.

That's why I agree that damage itself isn't the problem, though. What breaks these build isn't the damage they have access to but how they access it. In kits like these, there is no forewarning. While the defenses in this game are pretty out of hand, a lot of them do revolve around cooldowns. 90% uptime on protection etc., which while ridiculous, will not be upheld when no enemies or threats are in sight/noticed, or such uptime is dependent on being in combat, which these builds also bypass.

It's honestly the only defense for keeping passive procs in the game. If everything started having better tells to be responded to, then passives would have no justifiable reason to be kept.

[Baldrick.8967]

Play reaper or staff ele, I might get one fireball cast in the time you can rotate through everything and blink away....

There need to be breaks between skills like Guild Wars had- almost everything had a cast time or a delay timer and it was much better game play for it. This instant mashing of keyboard for 6-10 skills via macro or 'muscle memory' shouldn't exist in a pvp/wvw setting.