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Holosmith Specialization Updates for the Path of Fire Launch


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@That Guy.5704 said:

@Xyonon.3987 said:

Heya, I'm the guy who creates the Engi Spreadsheets on each patch and worry not, the Forge AA is already 25% stronger than the bomb AA. If they would have kept the PvP values for PvE, we'd have a 32k AA for Raids, which we probably all agree on would be op af. So the current Forge AA may be strong but we won't have a 100% uptime of it and sword AA being slightly lower than bomb AA, i think we're in a pretty good spot right now.

The Holo Spreadsheets will be aviable within 7 days after PoF release. :)

Hey how much lower is "slightly lower" by your estimation? Does sword have a longer after cast to account for? just accounting for cast times, sword looks a bit higher but I know cast times are very deceiving.

Bomb: 21k, Sword (beta): 18.6k. (~11.5% lower). Sword #2 is great tho, so no worries about that.

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@Bovan.9481 said:You guys are making way too big of a deal over other weapons not having a heat modification. Realistically, the only things that could be added would be quite insignificant because the weapons need to stand on their own. We're talking about things like Rifle#1 gaining a short bleed on auto, Rifle#3 getting +1 bleed stack, Rifle#5 apply extra vulnerability and so forth. It's just not worth the trouble.

The only thing that needs to be balanced properly is the damage output of Photon Forge. We're giving up a couple of things to be able to get Photon Forge and we are unable to use kits during it. Personally I'm very worried whether Photon Forge lives up to the DPS loss from not being able to use other kit skills in PvE. PvP modes I'm sure it will work out just fine through the sheer utility it brings.

You're right, we are.

As silly as it may sound, to me it's more of a feeling thing which I think just as an important factor to devs as other balance factors. It doesn't feel good to spec into Holo and potentially have zero heat bonus mechanics on your skills. That's a pretty large portion of what makes the spec awesome not available to you. Going one step further, just by not using sword you have practically zero bonus from being over 100% heat with ECSU (one measly extra condi removal using the relevant trait). None of the Exceed skills get bonuses at that level.

It's not without precedent in this game, and it isn't a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, but I thought it was a pretty simple relatively small factor to balance that they could have added to make the spec feel a lot better. There's also precedent to allow the elite spec to affect the core Profession more directly (Ele, Thief, etc).

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@Adamantium.3682 said:

@Bovan.9481 said:You guys are making way too big of a deal over other weapons not having a heat modification. Realistically, the only things that could be added would be quite insignificant because the weapons need to stand on their own. We're talking about things like Rifle#1 gaining a short bleed on auto, Rifle#3 getting +1 bleed stack, Rifle#5 apply extra vulnerability and so forth. It's just not worth the trouble.

The only thing that needs to be balanced properly is the damage output of Photon Forge. We're giving up a couple of things to be able to get Photon Forge and we are unable to use kits during it. Personally I'm very worried whether Photon Forge lives up to the DPS loss from not being able to use other kit skills in PvE. PvP modes I'm sure it will work out just fine through the sheer utility it brings.

You're right, we are.

As silly as it may sound, to me it's more of a feeling thing which I think just as an important factor to devs as other balance factors. It doesn't feel good to spec into Holo and potentially have
zero
heat bonus mechanics on your skills. That's a pretty large portion of what makes the spec awesome not available to you. Going one step further, just by not using sword you have practically zero bonus from being over 100% heat with ECSU (one measly extra condi removal using the relevant trait). None of the Exceed skills get bonuses at that level.

It's not without precedent in this game, and it isn't a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, but I thought it was a pretty simple relatively small factor to balance that they could have added to make the spec feel a lot better. There's also precedent to allow the elite spec to affect the core Profession more directly (Ele, Thief, etc).

Random Development dayBig Anet Guy: "Ye let's give ele a new skill with every elemental attunement combination for every primary weapon".Lesser Anet Guy: "What about the underwater weapon?"Big Anet Guy: "OMG are you dense? It's the big new mechanic on ele! Of course the underwater weapon needs new weapon skills too."Lesser Anet Guy: "Right away Sir."

Next Development dayBig Anet Guy: "How's the holosmith coming along?"Lesser Anet Guy: "I just finished making heat mechanics for the sword."Big Anet Guy: "Good leave it at that and move on to do skills for EVERY SINGLE ranger pet in the entire game."Lesser Anet Guy: "But sir what about the other engi weapons, won't it do engi justice to have all the weapons interact with the new engineer mechanic? I mean yesterday i added skills for a trident that will be used for less than 0.01 % of gameplay, I only need to add some numbers to them for the community to think it's cool.""Big Anet Guy: "Naw no time we have to add skills for SOOO many pets."

I realize that the people who made the different specializations are probably not the same but it think they should have done a bit more communication inbetween the teams so the effort put in the content would feel more equal in the end.

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@insanemaniac.2456 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Arimas.3492 said:Nice. These are some solid changes. Will core engi be getting any changes in launch update?

Yes, but mostly just bugfixes.

Can I ask why heat mechanics were not implemented for other weapons?

cuz other weapons are not exclusively holosmith weapons

weaver gets new weapon skills with base weaponsmirage gets new ambush skills with base weaponsengi gets the short end of the stick

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@WeedyZeGreedy.8635 said:

@Adamantium.3682 said:

@Bovan.9481 said:You guys are making way too big of a deal over other weapons not having a heat modification. Realistically, the only things that could be added would be quite insignificant because the weapons need to stand on their own. We're talking about things like Rifle#1 gaining a short bleed on auto, Rifle#3 getting +1 bleed stack, Rifle#5 apply extra vulnerability and so forth. It's just not worth the trouble.

The only thing that needs to be balanced properly is the damage output of Photon Forge. We're giving up a couple of things to be able to get Photon Forge and we are unable to use kits during it. Personally I'm very worried whether Photon Forge lives up to the DPS loss from not being able to use other kit skills in PvE. PvP modes I'm sure it will work out just fine through the sheer utility it brings.

You're right, we are.

As silly as it may sound, to me it's more of a feeling thing which I think just as an important factor to devs as other balance factors. It doesn't feel good to spec into Holo and potentially have
zero
heat bonus mechanics on your skills. That's a pretty large portion of what makes the spec awesome not available to you. Going one step further, just by not using sword you have practically zero bonus from being over 100% heat with ECSU (one measly extra condi removal using the relevant trait). None of the Exceed skills get bonuses at that level.

It's not without precedent in this game, and it isn't a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, but I thought it was a pretty simple relatively small factor to balance that they could have added to make the spec feel a lot better. There's also precedent to allow the elite spec to affect the core Profession more directly (Ele, Thief, etc).

Random Development dayBig Anet Guy: "Ye let's give ele a new skill with every elemental attunement combination for every primary weapon".Lesser Anet Guy: "What about the underwater weapon?"Big Anet Guy: "OMG are you dense? It's the big new mechanic on ele! Of course the underwater weapon needs new weapon skills too."Lesser Anet Guy: "Right away Sir."

Next Development dayBig Anet Guy: "How's the holosmith coming along?"Lesser Anet Guy: "I just finished making heat mechanics for the sword."Big Anet Guy: "Good leave it at that and move on to do skills for EVERY SINGLE ranger pet in the entire game."Lesser Anet Guy: "But sir what about the other engi weapons, won't it do engi justice to have all the weapons interact with the new engineer mechanic? I mean yesterday i added skills for a trident that will be used for less than 0.01 % of gameplay, I only need to add some numbers to them for the community to think it's cool.""Big Anet Guy: "Naw no time we have to add skills for SOOO many pets."

I realize that the people who made the different specializations are probably not the same but it think they should have done a bit more communication inbetween the teams so the effort put in the content would feel more equal in the end.

"Yo give ele all these weak extra skills that have little use in PvE, so some random guy with no clue about ele can complain in the engineer fora"

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@Zenith.7301 said:

@WeedyZeGreedy.8635 said:

@Adamantium.3682 said:

@Bovan.9481 said:You guys are making way too big of a deal over other weapons not having a heat modification. Realistically, the only things that could be added would be quite insignificant because the weapons need to stand on their own. We're talking about things like Rifle#1 gaining a short bleed on auto, Rifle#3 getting +1 bleed stack, Rifle#5 apply extra vulnerability and so forth. It's just not worth the trouble.

The only thing that needs to be balanced properly is the damage output of Photon Forge. We're giving up a couple of things to be able to get Photon Forge and we are unable to use kits during it. Personally I'm very worried whether Photon Forge lives up to the DPS loss from not being able to use other kit skills in PvE. PvP modes I'm sure it will work out just fine through the sheer utility it brings.

You're right, we are.

As silly as it may sound, to me it's more of a feeling thing which I think just as an important factor to devs as other balance factors. It doesn't feel good to spec into Holo and potentially have
zero
heat bonus mechanics on your skills. That's a pretty large portion of what makes the spec awesome not available to you. Going one step further, just by not using sword you have practically zero bonus from being over 100% heat with ECSU (one measly extra condi removal using the relevant trait). None of the Exceed skills get bonuses at that level.

It's not without precedent in this game, and it isn't a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, but I thought it was a pretty simple relatively small factor to balance that they could have added to make the spec feel a lot better. There's also precedent to allow the elite spec to affect the core Profession more directly (Ele, Thief, etc).

Random Development dayBig Anet Guy: "Ye let's give ele a new skill with every elemental attunement combination for every primary weapon".Lesser Anet Guy: "What about the underwater weapon?"Big Anet Guy: "OMG are you dense? It's the big new mechanic on ele! Of course the underwater weapon needs new weapon skills too."Lesser Anet Guy: "Right away Sir."

Next Development dayBig Anet Guy: "How's the holosmith coming along?"Lesser Anet Guy: "I just finished making heat mechanics for the sword."Big Anet Guy: "Good leave it at that and move on to do skills for EVERY SINGLE ranger pet in the entire game."Lesser Anet Guy: "But sir what about the other engi weapons, won't it do engi justice to have all the weapons interact with the new engineer mechanic? I mean yesterday i added skills for a trident that will be used for less than 0.01 % of gameplay, I only need to add some numbers to them for the community to think it's cool.""Big Anet Guy: "Naw no time we have to add skills for SOOO many pets."

I realize that the people who made the different specializations are probably not the same but it think they should have done a bit more communication inbetween the teams so the effort put in the content would feel more equal in the end.

"Yo give ele all these weak extra skills that have little use in PvE, so some random guy with no clue about ele can complain in the engineer fora"

Wait, that's your complaint? That people are pointing out that ArenaNet clearly spent days working on all the elementalist core weapons for weaver... and engineer didn't get any mechanical improvements to its core weapon sets, that might've taken 10 minutes because we only have like... 4 core weapons and they could've easily added some BS modifiers?

Yeah, we definitely whine too much. :expressionless:

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you think engineer changes and lack of dev work on core is bad, try looking at the necro forum, the devs already seem to have fk'd Scourge for them and their elite spec announcement already at 12 pages of pointing out just how bad anet are at balance and they clearly have no clue how to balance or what to balance

balance you say? fk it just use a sledgehammer where a tiny tweak would be better :cold_sweat: :dissapointed:

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@Robert Gee.9246 said:

  • Crystal Configuration Storm: Fixed a bug which allowed projectiles to be fired behind you. Lowered damage by 10% when compared to normal photon forge auto attacks. Changed projectile behavior to fire in straight lines rather than hovering relative to ground height.

CCS should just deal the same damage as the normal AA, I don't see a reason behind this. The other buffs/nerfs were great! I knew holosmith wouldn't be killed.

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@OnyX.9027 said:you think engineer changes and lack of dev work on core is bad, try looking at the necro forum, the devs already seem to have kitten'd Scourge for them and their elite spec announcement already at 12 pages of pointing out just how bad anet are at balance and they clearly have no clue how to balance or what to balance

balance you say? kitten it just use a sledgehammer where a tiny tweak would be better :cold_sweat: :dissapointed:

Dunno what ppl's problems are with Scourge changes. Overall buffed only less targets, but still 10+. I believe lots of people complaining are just scared the spec will be useless, that combined with the fact that noone has expirience with any spec at all.

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@LoreChief.8391 said:What did the community ask for?

"We want heat mechanics for all our weapons, not just sword!"

What did we get?

"Nerfs!"

Sure, why? Because too many people complain about the fact that holosmith were overpowered!And so don't see why heat don't apply to others weapon, it's a synergy concept, How your sword could capture more heat than your shield or pistol hum? The fact is just they was tired of make new skills for pistol/shield when you have sword like thief can actually do by changing between left and right handed weapons! And so all Elite aren't 100% finished, it's a reality, they are just making bugfixes which are more NERF NERF NERF. Enough of nerfs! Every extention, classes became weakier.Consclusion, stop saying heat shouln't affect other engi weapons! We DON'T have weapons swap, and the worst number of weapons choices! (Kits don't count!!)

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@Nephalem.8921 said:Holosmith the glass cannon with just the glass part. Forge lacks damage. Burn duration with 1sec too low. I don't want to run base engi for another 2years in pve.Whats the point of a "dps" spec that deals less damage than the core engi

If you don't give examples this sounds like just another pointless and baseless whining post.

Traits, gear, did you use raid test arena, rotations, etc...

You may be right! But your post provides no information without context.

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@Kaizoku.1298 said:

  • Crystal Configuration Storm: Fixed a bug which allowed projectiles to be fired behind you. Lowered damage by 10% when compared to normal photon forge auto attacks. Changed projectile behavior to fire in straight lines rather than hovering relative to ground height.

CCS should just deal the same damage as the normal AA, I don't see a reason behind this. The other buffs/nerfs were great! I knew holosmith wouldn't be killed.

I think the reasoning behind this is you're safer at a distance so the damage should be slightly less to compensate for less risk. It's not a big nerf either, so far I've went with the stability config mostly because a lot of mobs have a CC or 2. Auto attack range is already really good at 240 I haven't really had a reason to take Storm.

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@Adamantium.3682 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:Holosmith the glass cannon with just the glass part. Forge lacks damage. Burn duration with 1sec too low. I don't want to run base engi for another 2years in pve.Whats the point of a "dps" spec that deals less damage than the core engi

If you don't give examples this sounds like just another pointless and baseless whining post.

Traits, gear, did you use raid test arena, rotations, etc...

You may be right! But your post provides no information without context.

I tested with vipers and berserker. Berserker holo with lazer disc and new elite was an improvement over core power but still worse than vipers. Tried vipers with all kits. and 3 kits + new elite. Got best results with 3 kits + new elite but still worse than core with tools.

Forge is just undertuned. Burning duration too low. The 15% modifier only works in forge and when exploding. You need to take the exploding trait for the modifier on bomb aa.1sec base burning on forge 4 is just too short. same for 2sec base burning on the trait.You even reduce your dmg now if you take the aa explosion trait on a power build.

The 25% dmg nerf on all forge skills was an overkill.Meanwhile weaver is beyond broken again. All forge does is selfstack might really good.It is a glass cannon spec without the cannon part. 16k aa crits in forge on last chain? thats way too low. 40-50k on 4 fullbuffed.Compared to weaver and renegade this is just lacking damage everywhere

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@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Adamantium.3682 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:Holosmith the glass cannon with just the glass part. Forge lacks damage. Burn duration with 1sec too low. I don't want to run base engi for another 2years in pve.Whats the point of a "dps" spec that deals less damage than the core engi

If you don't give examples this sounds like just another pointless and baseless whining post.

Traits, gear, did you use raid test arena, rotations, etc...

You may be right! But your post provides no information without context.

I tested with vipers and berserker. Berserker holo with lazer disc and new elite was an improvement over core power but still worse than vipers. Tried vipers with all kits. and 3 kits + new elite. Got best results with 3 kits + new elite but still worse than core with tools.

Forge is just undertuned. Burning duration too low. The 15% modifier only works in forge and when exploding. You need to take the exploding trait for the modifier on bomb aa.1sec base burning on forge 4 is just too short. same for 2sec base burning on the trait.You even reduce your dmg now if you take the aa explosion trait on a power build.

The 25% dmg nerf on all forge skills was an overkill.Meanwhile weaver is beyond broken again. All forge does is selfstack might really good.It is a glass cannon spec without the cannon part. 16k aa crits in forge on last chain? thats way too low. 40-50k on 4 fullbuffed.Compared to weaver and renegade this is just lacking damage everywhere

I was so excited for Holosmith and it's fun in open world, but once you take into the dps testing arena you just get so disappointed. I really hope we get a buff, although I should maybe just abandon the thought, considering how terrible the balance updates usually are.I really wonder why Anet didn't let people dps test the specs in the beta. The feedback from that would be so much more consistent.I built a legendary extra for my Holosmith, please let me use it :/

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ye, holosmith is way too undertuned, there is basically no point in going to Photon Forge atm as its AA's do less dmg than Bomb AA's. For condi, the burning duration is too short and making us camp 6s in it makes you lose more dmg than spamming nades and other stuff (more condies).

Atm there is really no reason to play this spec. I'm a bit dissapointed. Was so hyped after the beta testing, the release killed holo :( (I envy weavers and other dps classes)

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I share the feeling that Holo needs buffs in PvE to the sustained damage output. I really see no reason this should not be the absolute top power DPS build for raiding and within the top 2 or 3 overall. It's glassy and has a risk to it with the forge mechanic, and it's an entire elite spec dedicated almost wholly to damage so it better be good at it.

It has great burst so far, and I'm still not concerned at all with that but early results show there's probably some room to bump up the sustained damage.

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