How Joko knew what was going on....

[starhunter.6015]

Lets go back to Heart of thorns where the theory starts. Mordremoth got a hold of a Raptor mount at some point after Zhaitan's death. So safe to assume that once Zhaitan was defeated The Order of Shadows, Mordrem Crescent and maybe even Sunspear's sent scouts possibly envoys into Tyria and to Maguma. Now Joko at this time had access to the Inquests Gates so he could of easily sent a few people into the Jungle where at least one of the Raptor's where taken and placed in the blighting tree. One of the explorers most likely made it back to Elona with info on currents events . Info on the pact, the commander (PC) and the info made it's way into Joko's hands.

[Rognik.2579]

Sorry, I'm still stuck on the logic of why a dragon would need a raptor mount. Also, there's zero evidence that the Order of Shadows has any operations outside of Elona. The Order of Whispers has similarly been fractured into an Elona branch and a Tyria branch, at least as far as I understand the setup...

[starhunter.6015]

OoW has stated in personal story and other spots that they still had contact with Elona while Zhaitan was still alive. Joko got his info from someone. He could of caught a Whispers agent, but still doesn't explain the Mordrem Raptor. All the other Mordrem clones have original version's present in HoT. The Raptor doesn't have a original presence there. Plus if you watch the HoT expansion announcement trailor you see a figure holding a polearm/spear that appears to be holding a elona style helm watching the vines take out the air ships.

[Randulf.7614]

@starhunter.6015 said:OoW has stated in personal story and other spots that they still had contact with Elona while Zhaitan was still alive. Joko got his info from someone. He could of caught a Whispers agent, but still doesn't explain the Mordrem Raptor. All the other Mordrem clones have original version's present in HoT. The Raptor doesn't have a original presence there. Plus if you watch the HoT expansion announcement trailor you see a figure holding a polearm/spear that appears to be holding a elona style helm watching the vines take out the air ships.

Can you link a pic of this raptor? Maguuma has long since had all kinds of dinosaurs as seen in gw1, so id just as assume they were templated from existing species. I would not expect us to see every species in such a vast landscape during our headlong charge through the jungle. Plus mord may have retained some old templates

[Cragga the Eighty Third.60]

Maybe referring to this?https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordrem_Guard_Cavalier

[Randulf.7614]

@"Cragga the Eighty Third.6015" said:Maybe referring to this?https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordrem_Guard_Cavalier

I thought it might be. I assumed they were just based off the original GW1 raptors or similar Maguuma species

[Sombra.3246]

@starhunter.6015 said:Lets go back to Heart of thorns where the theory starts. Mordremoth got a hold of a Raptor mount at some point after Zhaitan's death. So safe to assume that once Zhaitan was defeated The Order of Shadows, Mordrem Crescent and maybe even Sunspear's sent scouts possibly envoys into Tyria and to Maguma. Now Joko at this time had access to the Inquests Gates so he could of easily sent a few people into the Jungle where at least one of the Raptor's where taken and placed in the blighting tree. One of the explorers most likely made it back to Elona with info on currents events . Info on the pact, the commander (PC) and the info made it's way into Joko's hands.

Joko knows what is going on because he is secretly being possessed by the spirit of Abbadon. He used his occult knowledge to take over Joko's body after Kormir defeating the giant floating head and arms he was using as a vessel in nightfall. He is now on a path to conquer nations and exploring ways of siphoning the magic of the elder dragons .Now he is going to reveal him self soon when he gathers more power and more magic to take down the 6 gods that betrayed him and also become the new ruler in Tyria, Elona and Cantha.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"starhunter.6015" said:still doesn't explain the Mordrem Raptor. All the other Mordrem clones have original version's present in HoT. The Raptor doesn't have a original presence there. Plus if you watch the HoT expansion announcement trailor you see a figure holding a polearm/spear that appears to be holding a elona style helm watching the vines take out the air ships.

Whoever said that's a raptor? Doesn't look really like a raptor to me. Besides, there are already raptors in the jungle and I don't mean Pocket Raptors, so if it is a raptor then it is simply not a perfect clone like the hylek and other saurians are, and we have our original. It doesn't need to be the featherless raptors of the desert for it to be a mordrem raptor.

However, I will stress that not all mordrem have living counterparts. There are a number of mordrem that are created with a unique purpose and are shaped towards fulfilling that purpose - the vinetooth is just the most obvious example. Here's another mordrem with no clear original. It is based off of the teragriff, which could be argued to be based, in turn, off of colocals local to the Maguuma Wastes, but that in of itself is unique (and sadly, heavily underused for its potential). The Octovines, Vinewraths, Thrashers are all also unique creations of the mordrem, though the Vinewrath could be argued to be "clones of flowers".

These mounts are never called anything else, which to me implies that they are an original creation (perhaps partially inspired by the local jungle raptors) for the sole purpose of being mounts for the mordrem guard.

As to the "a figure holding a polearm/spear that appears to be holding a elona style helm watching the vines take out the air ships." if you mean

- that is a spear and shield he's holding. But there's nothing Elonian about that silhouette.

[Durzlla.6295]

I assumed the mordrem “raptors” were just Mordremoth creations, especially given the fact that they breathe fire.

[Chorne.8195]

@Sombra.3246 said:

@starhunter.6015 said:Lets go back to Heart of thorns where the theory starts. Mordremoth got a hold of a Raptor mount at some point after Zhaitan's death. So safe to assume that once Zhaitan was defeated The Order of Shadows, Mordrem Crescent and maybe even Sunspear's sent scouts possibly envoys into Tyria and to Maguma. Now Joko at this time had access to the Inquests Gates so he could of easily sent a few people into the Jungle where at least one of the Raptor's where taken and placed in the blighting tree. One of the explorers most likely made it back to Elona with info on currents events . Info on the pact, the commander (PC) and the info made it's way into Joko's hands.

Joko knows what is going on because he is secretly being possessed by the spirit of Abbadon. He used his occult knowledge to take over Joko's body after Kormir defeating the giant floating head and arms he was using as a vessel in nightfall. He is now on a path to conquer nations and exploring ways of siphoning the magic of the elder dragons .Now he is going to reveal him self soon when he gathers more power and more magic to take down the 6 gods that betrayed him and also become the new ruler in Tyria, Elona and Cantha.

Uh, that is the exact same plot that Balthazar had. That would be the worst plot twist ever. And I'm pretty sure the devs have stressed that Abaddon is 100% dead at this point.

And as for the raptor thing.... How do we know when Joko got his hands on the Inquest gates? I didn't hear anyone say when that was. And I doubt he had them during HoT. Anyway, everyone in Tyria knows about all Sylvari, Mordremoth and etc., so I doubt it'd be too tremendously difficult for Joko to find a curious outlander, off them and get information off them. It wasn't impossible to visit the Crystal Desert. Hell, Snaff did it in Destiny's Edge so he could get quick materials for a sand golem.

[videoboy.4162]

My theory, that I put in the other topic, is that Joko is/was snatching Pact Members and/or Risen from Orr and getting information out of them. Orr is pretty close to his territory and it would solve the issue of trying to send information across long distances, if he were trying to use spies in Central Tyria.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Chorne.8195 said:

@"Sombra.3246" said:Joko knows what is going on because he is secretly being possessed by the spirit of Abbadon. He used his occult knowledge to take over Joko's body after Kormir defeating the giant floating head and arms he was using as a vessel in nightfall. He is now on a path to conquer nations and exploring ways of siphoning the magic of the elder dragons .Now he is going to reveal him self soon when he gathers more power and more magic to take down the 6 gods that betrayed him and also become the new ruler in Tyria, Elona and Cantha.

Uh, that is the exact same plot that Balthazar had. That would be the worst plot twist ever.

Pretty sure that was Sombra's "joke". Not a good one, either.

@Chorne.8195 said:And as for the raptor thing.... How do we know when Joko got his hands on the Inquest gates? I didn't hear anyone say when that was. And I doubt he had them during HoT.

It's pretty clear in the dialogue.

Upon finding the Rata Novan Teriminal

Spearmarshal Zaeim: What...is that?Rox: Inquest trick?Asura Console: Replaying security log.Taimi: I won't open it. I'd rather die than help you!Mysterious Voice: If you prefer, you can die and help me. The order doesn't matter.Taimi: Cross those two wires...and hit that button.Asura Console: Replay complete.Braham Eirsson: (furious roar)

That dialogue is referring to a holographic security wall blocking access to the final room of the story mission. Joko got Taimi to give him access to that room. So he couldn't have had access to that room (thus the asura gates) before hand. Giving him at most two asura gates to use. If the Awakened Inquest couldn't operate one, it's unlikely they could operate the other.

@Chorne.8195 said:Anyway, everyone in Tyria knows about all Sylvari, Mordremoth and etc., so I doubt it'd be too tremendously difficult for Joko to find a curious outlander, off them and get information off them. It wasn't impossible to visit the Crystal Desert. Hell, Snaff did it in Destiny's Edge so he could get quick materials for a sand golem.

Snaff went to the northern Crystal Desert, where Joko has little to no rule. Even during Path of Fire, he barely has a single outpost in the Desert Highlands, and that group is new, having gone there solely to pursue a Sunspear. Most Awakened are south of the Bone Wall - hence why a deserter Awakened only went so far as the Elon Riverlands to stay away from Joko's men. The only other example of Tyrians going into the desert we have are Priory excavating Forgotten ruins, which would largely be in the Crystal Oasis. So again, out of Joko's typical reach.

Not impossible, but fairly unlikely. Especially when we factor in the questionable nature of what information "Awakening then interrogating" gives per the situation of the Awakened Inquest.

I have little doubt that this is just one of those major oversights that ArenaNet never, somehow, considered. Like why Amnoon uses New Krytan, a written alphabet developed during the century of Joko's invasion and localized to Central Tyria by the Durmand Priory.

[mercury ranique.2170]

those are not raptors, but mordrems. Just like some mordrems look like humans (Silvari as an example), some look like dogs and other look like Hylek. They are all plants just made to look like something else.

[starhunter.6015]

@mercury ranique.2170 said:those are not raptors, but mordrems. Just like some mordrems look like humans (Silvari as an example), some look like dogs and other look like Hylek. They are all plants just made to look like something else.

Sylvari and fenhounds are modeled off of Ronan family and his dog, the tree was planted over the graves. Making the Sylvari from pale tree Human and Dog like. This is explained in personal story, as for the Hylek Mordrem that is explained in HoT story. Mordy was taking the bodies of slain Hylek and others like trolls and making plant clones of them in the blighting pods. Pretty much everything Mordy made was copied from something that was alive or once living. The Vine Tooth and Husks maybe the only original creations of Mordy

[Yereton.8647]

My current theory about this whole 'How did Joko know' business might a little lack-luster. But in my opinion the easiest conceivable way he can know things is to use a magical artifact, a la palanthir from the Lord of the Rings. It might not be exciting but I can see that as a very plausible deus ex machina.

Edit: Typos

[mercury ranique.2170]

@starhunter.6015 said:

@mercury ranique.2170 said:those are not raptors, but mordrems. Just like some mordrems look like humans (Silvari as an example), some look like dogs and other look like Hylek. They are all plants just made to look like something else.

Sylvari and fenhounds are modeled off of Ronan family and his dog, the tree was planted over the graves. Making the Sylvari from pale tree Human and Dog like. This is explained in personal story, as for the Hylek Mordrem that is explained in HoT story. Mordy was taking the bodies of slain Hylek and others like trolls and making plant clones of them in the blighting pods. Pretty much everything Mordy made was copied from something that was alive or once living. The Vine Tooth and Husks maybe the only original creations of Mordy

While it is true that they are copies, the original is not transformed. The copies are also highly modified. So for the mount, it can very well be from the pocket raptors.

[Durzlla.6295]

@Yereton.8647 said:My current theory about this whole 'How did Joko know' business might a little lack-luster. But in my opinion the easiest conceivable way he can know things is to use a magical artifact, a la palanthir from the Lord of the Rings. It might not be exciting but I can see that as a very plausible deus ex machina.

Edit: Typos

It’s also possible that Joko used some good ole divination magic!

However, I think that sorta magic is exceptionally rare in GW universe, which is why the pool in EotN was such a big deal.

[Yereton.8647]

@Durzlla.6295 said:

@Yereton.8647 said:My current theory about this whole 'How did Joko know' business might a little lack-luster. But in my opinion the easiest conceivable way he can know things is to use a magical artifact, a la palanthir from the Lord of the Rings. It might not be exciting but I can see that as a very plausible deus ex machina.

Edit: Typos

It’s also possible that Joko used some good ole divination magic!

However, I think that sorta magic is exceptionally rare in GW universe, which is why the pool in EotN was such a big deal.

It might be a rare magic, but you also have to to consider that Joko is an immortal king, that conquered the second most magical nation in the known world (Orr being the first). From a narrative point of view it could be as simple at Joko having it commissioned and created by the Vabbians and their Djinn servants, or found in the Hidden City of Ahdashim as a previously existing relic. Having a really long lifespan pays dividends when you have all the time on Tyria to find and horde rare artifacts.

[Durzlla.6295]

@Yereton.8647 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:

@Yereton.8647 said:My current theory about this whole 'How did Joko know' business might a little lack-luster. But in my opinion the easiest conceivable way he can know things is to use a magical artifact, a la palanthir from the Lord of the Rings. It might not be exciting but I can see that as a very plausible deus ex machina.

Edit: Typos

It’s also possible that Joko used some good ole divination magic!

However, I think that sorta magic is exceptionally rare in GW universe, which is why the pool in EotN was such a big deal.

It might be a rare magic, but you also have to to consider that Joko is an immortal king, that conquered the second most magical nation in the known world (Orr being the first). From a narrative point of view it could be as simple at Joko having it commissioned and created by the Vabbians and their Djinn servants, or found in the Hidden City of Ahdashim as a previously existing relic. Having a really long lifespan pays dividends when you have all the time on Tyria to find and horde rare artifacts.

Yeah I wouldn’t be surprised if Joko has at least one or two artifacts in his possession given how long he’s been around, and more importantly that he’s been out and about for 250+ years.

[Justine.6351]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"starhunter.6015" said:still doesn't explain the Mordrem Raptor. All the other Mordrem clones have original version's present in HoT. The Raptor doesn't have a original presence there. Plus if you watch the HoT expansion announcement trailor you see a figure holding a polearm/spear that appears to be holding a elona style helm watching the vines take out the air ships.

Whoever said that's a raptor? Doesn't look really like a raptor to me. Besides, there

are already raptors in the jungle

and I don't mean Pocket Raptors, so if it

is

a raptor then it is simply not a perfect clone like the hylek and other saurians are, and we have our original. It doesn't need to be the featherless raptors of the desert for it to be a mordrem raptor.

However, I will stress that

not all mordrem have living counterparts

. There are a number of mordrem that are created with a unique purpose and are shaped towards fulfilling that purpose - the vinetooth is just the most obvious example.

Here's another mordrem with no clear original.

It is based off of the teragriff, which could be argued to be based, in turn, off of colocals local to the Maguuma Wastes, but that in of itself is unique (and sadly, heavily underused for its potential). The Octovines, Vinewraths, Thrashers are all also unique creations of the mordrem, though the Vinewrath could be argued to be "clones of flowers".

These mounts are

never called anything else

, which to me implies that they are an original creation (perhaps partially inspired by the local jungle raptors) for the sole purpose of being mounts for the mordrem guard.

As to the "a figure holding a polearm/spear that appears to be holding a elona style helm watching the vines take out the air ships." if you mean

- that is a spear and shield he's holding. But there's nothing Elonian about that silhouette.

For real?

It's pretty obvious the cavalier mount from hot is linked in some way to elona raptor mounts...

[Yereton.8647]

@Justine.6351 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"starhunter.6015" said:still doesn't explain the Mordrem Raptor. All the other Mordrem clones have original version's present in HoT. The Raptor doesn't have a original presence there. Plus if you watch the HoT expansion announcement trailor you see a figure holding a polearm/spear that appears to be holding a elona style helm watching the vines take out the air ships.

Whoever said that's a raptor? Doesn't look really like a raptor to me. Besides, there

are already raptors in the jungle

and I don't mean Pocket Raptors, so if it

is

a raptor then it is simply not a perfect clone like the hylek and other saurians are, and we have our original. It doesn't need to be the featherless raptors of the desert for it to be a mordrem raptor.

However, I will stress that

not all mordrem have living counterparts

. There are a number of mordrem that are created with a unique purpose and are shaped towards fulfilling that purpose - the vinetooth is just the most obvious example.

Here's another mordrem with no clear original.

It is based off of the teragriff, which could be argued to be based, in turn, off of colocals local to the Maguuma Wastes, but that in of itself is unique (and sadly, heavily underused for its potential). The Octovines, Vinewraths, Thrashers are all also unique creations of the mordrem, though the Vinewrath could be argued to be "clones of flowers".

These mounts are

never called anything else

, which to me implies that they are an original creation (perhaps partially inspired by the local jungle raptors) for the sole purpose of being mounts for the mordrem guard.

As to the "a figure holding a polearm/spear that appears to be holding a elona style helm watching the vines take out the air ships." if you mean

- that is a spear and shield he's holding. But there's nothing Elonian about that silhouette.

For real?

It's pretty obvious the cavalier mount from hot is linked in some way to elona raptor mounts...

Even if it is, and that indeed the Mordrem Cavalier Mounts are copies of a living thing, it is very possible that the original 'mold', so to speak, was just a Maguuma Raptor species. I mean you see certain species strewn all across Tyria. The core tyria griffons being the prime example, they are everywhere, each with small physical nuances. Or maybe a better example is the Shiverpeaks dolyak and the Crystal Desert dolyak. My point is, just because we don't see them in game, nothing says there aren't larger raptors (i.e bigger than pocket raptors and the avian raptors in Tyria) in the jungle.

Thus if Mordremoth used a blighted pod to get his mounts, it would be more likely to have copied an unknown local Maguuma species, rather than the Elonian Saurian Raptor.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Yereton.8647 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"starhunter.6015" said:still doesn't explain the Mordrem Raptor. All the other Mordrem clones have original version's present in HoT. The Raptor doesn't have a original presence there. Plus if you watch the HoT expansion announcement trailor you see a figure holding a polearm/spear that appears to be holding a elona style helm watching the vines take out the air ships.

Whoever said that's a raptor? Doesn't look really like a raptor to me. Besides, there

are already raptors in the jungle

and I don't mean Pocket Raptors, so if it

is

a raptor then it is simply not a perfect clone like the hylek and other saurians are, and we have our original. It doesn't need to be the featherless raptors of the desert for it to be a mordrem raptor.

However, I will stress that

not all mordrem have living counterparts

. There are a number of mordrem that are created with a unique purpose and are shaped towards fulfilling that purpose - the vinetooth is just the most obvious example.

Here's another mordrem with no clear original.

It is based off of the teragriff, which could be argued to be based, in turn, off of colocals local to the Maguuma Wastes, but that in of itself is unique (and sadly, heavily underused for its potential). The Octovines, Vinewraths, Thrashers are all also unique creations of the mordrem, though the Vinewrath could be argued to be "clones of flowers".

These mounts are

never called anything else

, which to me implies that they are an original creation (perhaps partially inspired by the local jungle raptors) for the sole purpose of being mounts for the mordrem guard.

As to the "a figure holding a polearm/spear that appears to be holding a elona style helm watching the vines take out the air ships." if you mean

- that is a spear and shield he's holding. But there's nothing Elonian about that silhouette.

For real?

It's pretty obvious the cavalier mount from hot is linked in some way to elona raptor mounts...

Even if it is, and that indeed the Mordrem Cavalier Mounts are copies of a living thing, it is very possible that the original 'mold', so to speak, was just a Maguuma Raptor species. I mean you see certain species strewn all across Tyria. The core tyria griffons being the prime example, they are everywhere, each with small physical nuances. Or maybe a better example is the Shiverpeaks dolyak and the Crystal Desert dolyak. My point is, just because we don't see them in game, nothing says there aren't larger raptors (i.e bigger than pocket raptors and the avian raptors in Tyria) in the jungle.

Thus if Mordremoth used a blighted pod to get his mounts, it would be more likely to have copied an unknown local Maguuma species, rather than the Elonian Saurian Raptor.

Proportionally, the Mordrem Mounts also look more like pocket raptors, with the stumpier legs and tails, than the desert raptor mounts.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Justine.6351 said:For real?

It's pretty obvious the cavalier mount from hot is linked in some way to elona raptor mounts...

How so?

Because it strikes with its tail? So does every other Saurian in the Maguuma.

Because of it's shape? Every raptor has that.

What makes it uniquely linked to Crystal Desert raptors, as opposed to Maguuman raptors?

Because they're mounted? Put a fucking saddle on an eagle raptor and hop on. If the hylek can do that to beetles, mordrem can do that to a mordrem eagle raptor.

[Justine.6351]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Justine.6351 said:For real?

It's pretty obvious the cavalier mount from hot is linked in some way to elona raptor mounts...

How so?

Because it strikes with its tail? So does every other Saurian in the Maguuma.

Because of it's shape? Every raptor has that.

What makes it

uniquely

linked to Crystal Desert raptors, as opposed to Maguuman raptors?

Because they're mounted? Put a kitten saddle on an eagle raptor and hop on. If the hylek can do that to beetles, mordrem can do that to a mordrem eagle raptor.

Like compare an eagle raptor, an Elona mount raptor and the mordrem raptor mounts side by side. It's painfully obvious elonian raptor mounts were modeled based on the mordrem mounts.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Justine.6351" said:Like compare an eagle raptor, an Elona mount raptor and the mordrem raptor mounts side by side. It's painfully obvious elonian raptor mounts were modeled based on the mordrem mounts.

This looks totally improportionate to this. So I'm going to disagree.

I don't think the Mordrem Mount uses any rigging from the raptors at all, TBH. Or vice versa. The Mordrem Mount were clearly modeled to be quadrupedal based on the artist's own image of it as linked above (came from here if interested; raptor image came from here), but capable of being bipedal; raptors are not like that at all. The Mordrem Mount's forelegs are much too long compared to any raptor's, indicating different rigging.

Even if you were right and the Crystal Desert raptor's rigging is a modified Mordrem Mount rigging, that means nothing in regards to lore. If you argue it does, then you're arguing along the lines that choya are related to quaggan, and the HoT mushrooms are actually skritt in disguise. ArenaNet re-uses old rigging all the time for the sake of shortening work loads, it's not uncommon. But I don't think this was such a case, especially since they had added so many unique animations to every mount. I don't even see similar animation rigging between the griffon mount and Tyrian griffons, or the jackals and wolves.

I'm fairly certain that all five mounts are fully unique rigging.

Now, going back to the lore side of the comparison, there are plenty of raptors for Mordremoth to choose from, and a Crystal Desert raptor would stick out like a sore thumb in Tyria, making the idea of Joko (or any Elonian) sending a raptor and rider to Tyria without ever being detected, yet getting all the way across Tyria to the opposite side of it, seem completely far fetched.