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Did we get hit the hardest?


Sylent.3165

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Looks like we got hit the hardest with nerfs compared to any other elite spec. We are losing a lot of damage with the extremely unnecessary increases of life force needed for our primary damage source but got nothing in return but a very small amount of stability.

What was the purpose in making us deal low damage with no defense? Seems like condition reaper at this rate will still be much better

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We'll need a support spec to keep us alive and be able to support. Great.

The thing I hate the most of my beloved profession is the "innate tankiness" given by our minor traits that seems to prevent us having a good dps build and active defenses.

No good damage modifiers, no good ways to trade survivability for damage.I hope that the next e-spec will bring skills with LF cost that can be used in shroud like revenants can do with their legends.And a "simil burst" mechanic to use our Life Force to deal serious damage.

I'm asking for a "tribal" Voodoo warrior.

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@Sylent.3165 said:What was the purpose in making us deal low damage with no defense? Seems like condition reaper at this rate will still be much betterI've been hearing about necro changes to deathly chill from a condi to power trait so I am pretty worried for my viper reaper.

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@Sylent.3165 said:Looks like we got hit the hardest with nerfs compared to any other elite spec. We are losing a lot of damage with the extremely unnecessary increases of life force needed for our primary damage source but got nothing in return but a very small amount of stability.

What was the purpose in making us deal low damage with no defense? Seems like condition reaper at this rate will still be much better

Reaper will be always superior to Scourge in an offensive perspective, doesn't matter if Scourge is/was overtuned until this pre-release balance notes, at some point it will get brought down even further to stay below Reaper offensively.

I don't quite get all the fuss from these changes, it's not like they completely butchered the whole spec in a swoop but rather toned it down from a state that arguably put Scourge has the big OP new spec, specially in WvW. Most of the complains I read today was on Scourge getting shafted harder than the rest of the specs, maybe because it was necessary? Besides, there's too much to confirm yet until everyone can play Scourge in and out and not half-assedly from the BW to make a full assumption on its state.

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@Lahm.7056 said:Scourge has the big OP new spec, specially in WvW.

Especially? Try "only". Scourge damage was below that of a condi PS warrior. What scourge had was high point-based BURST.

Burst =/= dps. To explain this, imagine a class that has one attack that deals 100000 damage once every minute, but has no other attacks. That sounds obviously OP in PVP/WVW because it's a oneshot.

In PVE, this great attack is only 16k DPS. Not exactly exciting. This is an example so you can understand the difference between burst and sustained damage. In PVE; you usually need the latter, not the former.

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@Zefiris.8297 said:

@Lahm.7056 said:Scourge has the big OP new spec, specially in WvW.

Especially? Try "only". Scourge damage was below that of a condi PS warrior. What scourge had was high point-based BURST.

Burst =/= dps. To explain this, imagine a class that has one attack that deals 100000 damage once every minute, but has no other attacks. That sounds obviously OP in PVP/WVW because it's a oneshot.

In PVE, this great attack is only 16k DPS. Not exactly exciting. This is an example so you can understand the difference between burst and sustained damage. In PVE; you usually need the latter, not the former.

Should've explained more clearly the OP deal, totally my bad there.

I called it in the way that Scourge previous to today's balance notes was going be the big game changer in WvW meta and probably to some extent in PvP due to how Sand Shades would work in those environments and the impact they were going to cause, couple that with the strongest Barrier providing spec, great boon corrupt and above average condi application would make Scourge the undeniable MVP of zerging, but that was kind of cut short today and that was the needed change I called in my previous post.

Unfortunately I can't give any insight into PvE meta and such since I don't play it since pre-HoT other than very scarce exploration for little unlocks here and there, so I have no idea how Scourge will fare in end-game PvE.

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@Sylent.3165 said:Looks like we got hit the hardest with nerfs compared to any other elite spec. We are losing a lot of damage with the extremely unnecessary increases of life force needed for our primary damage source but got nothing in return but a very small amount of stability.

What was the purpose in making us deal low damage with no defense? Seems like condition reaper at this rate will still be much better

There isn't even a comparison we got nuked from orbit other classes got punched in the face. The main problem is all the changes were nerfs, nothing but nerfs we were provided nothing in return. Hell it's so bad they literally betrayed the very core concept of battlefield control they SOLD THE SPEC ON before it even goes live.

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@Lahm.7056 said:

@Zefiris.8297 said:

@Lahm.7056 said:Scourge has the big OP new spec, specially in WvW.

Especially? Try "only". Scourge damage was below that of a condi PS warrior. What scourge had was high point-based BURST.

Burst =/= dps. To explain this, imagine a class that has one attack that deals 100000 damage once every minute, but has no other attacks. That sounds obviously OP in PVP/WVW because it's a oneshot.

In PVE, this great attack is only 16k DPS. Not exactly exciting. This is an example so you can understand the difference between burst and sustained damage. In PVE; you usually need the latter, not the former.

Should've explained more clearly the OP deal, totally my bad there.

I called it in the way that Scourge previous to today's balance notes was going be the big game changer in WvW meta and probably to some extent in PvP due to how Sand kitten would work in those environments and the impact they were going to cause, couple that with the strongest Barrier providing spec, great boon corrupt and above average condi application would make Scourge the undeniable MVP of zerging, but that was kind of cut short today and that was the needed change I called in my previous post.

Unfortunately I can't give any insight into PvE meta and such since I don't play it since pre-HoT other than very scarce exploration for little unlocks here and there, so I have no idea how Scourge will fare in end-game PvE.

Apologies for the tone of my response, too. Just a bit cranky with SOME people (not you, as it turns out) using WvW to justify PvE nerfs.I agree that WvW justified some scourge nerfs in WvW - I argued as much in the old forum. My only problem is that it hurts PVE, too.

COmpare this to the holosmith damage fix, which is PVP only. That's the kind of change we should have gotten, in my opinion :)

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I really don't get where the devs want to go with Scourge pve wise.... Support? Really? Imo every other class will do support better now than us paired with a lot amount of more dmg. What do we bring to the table? Barrier? Decays way to fast imo. Booncorruption. C'mon atm there is no need for a grat amount of booncorruption. Hopefully they will not tear down condireaper.....

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@Svarty.8019 said:So... what happened? Did I miss something?

Manifest Sand Shade: Reduced duration of shade from 25s to 20s. Reduced target cap from 5 to 3.Nefarious Favor: Increased cost from 15% to 21% base vitality in life force.Garish Pillar: Reduced cost from 50% to 40% of base vitality in life force.Desert Shroud: Increased cost from 40% to 50% of base vitality in life force.Harrowing Wave: Now grants 3% life force per enemy struck.Serpent Siphon: Poison from 1 stack for 3s to 2 stacks for 5s.Sand Swell: Increased duration of portal from 6 to 8 seconds. Increased number of allies that can use it from 10 to 20.Trail of Anguish: Now grants stability in addition to swiftness.Desert Empowerment: Reduced base barrier value and healing scaling granted from this trait by 27%.Sand Savant: Reduced the increased number of targets on Manifest Sand Shade from 5 to 2. (So it now increases it to 5)

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A lot of people are saying, "Hey, all the nerfs were justified! Scourge was strong in WvW, therefore it had to be fixed!" I mean, okay, tune it down a bit, but you don't gut the entire point behind the spec. They decided to "tune" Scourge by: increasing life force costs (which already damper the effectiveness of Scourge's F abilities, which from my understanding is where most of the "brokenness" comes from); decreasing duration of sh@des (again reducing the Scourge's effectiveness at both damage and support); decreasing target cap (so now a Scourge cannot effectively support a raid team, and needs to carefully consider shade positioning for even 5-character instanced content). That's 3 different approaches to systematically nerf the spec. Why not just tune any one of them, see how it goes, and then go from there, tuning up or down as necessary?

Why did they feel the need to nerf barrier? It already decays incredibly quickly--now we get less base barrier application, and the already bad scaling got reduced by more than 25%! So now Scourge is a spec built on support and sand shade use, and can effectively do neither. Why? Because some thief got upset they couldn't one shot a Scourge on beta weekend, got in a huff and stood in a sand shade, and died. And then cried about it ad nauseum..

If other professions are allowed to be the BEST at something (and sometimes EVERYTHING), why can't necros be at least GOOD at something? Why can't we have a spec that can absolutely wreck someone if they stand in the shade? Why can't we have good support skills? Why can't we have nice things since we gave up our "second life bar" aka the only thing keeping necros alive since 2012.

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@Lahmia.2193 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:So... what happened? Did I miss something?

Manifest Sand Shade: Reduced duration of shade from 25s to 20s. Reduced target cap from 5 to 3.Nefarious Favor: Increased cost from 15% to 21% base vitality in life force.Garish Pillar: Reduced cost from 50% to 40% of base vitality in life force.Desert Shroud: Increased cost from 40% to 50% of base vitality in life force.Harrowing Wave: Now grants 3% life force per enemy struck.Serpent Siphon: Poison from 1 stack for 3s to 2 stacks for 5s.Sand Swell: Increased duration of portal from 6 to 8 seconds. Increased number of allies that can use it from 10 to 20.Trail of Anguish: Now grants stability in addition to swiftness.Desert Empowerment: Reduced base barrier value and healing scaling granted from this trait by 27%.Sand Savant: Reduced the increased number of targets on Manifest Sand Shade from 5 to 2. (So it now increases it to 5)

Thanks. I'm a big fan of WvW, and it's good to see some WvW-oriented buffs to those utility skills, particularly Trail of Anguish.

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I told it to pple after beta weekend.......pple were whining like little children that scourge is so OP so anet nerfed it as I expected i wanted to play necro again but Iam really happy I didnt buy new xpax because power mes/ pewpew ranger/thief/hammer guard/power rev etc will one shot scourge in pvp before they can put any dmg. so I will stick with my power well vampiric reaper with GS......really glad i didnt buy it.

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