How exactly did DAoC manage to get WvW right?

[Dabrixmgp.4758]

Played both GW2 and DAoC since their launch dates. Yet DAoC RvR is widely considered the greatest while GW2 WvW not so much. Im talking DAoC before all the stupid expansions, Artis, and everyone having buffbots. They both have the same concept. 3 sides and you run around and take stuff using siege. Yet so much love for one and hate for the other. Honestly the CC in DAoC was far worse because there wasnt a cap on AoE stuns and Mezes. There wasnt a cap on targets either so an 8 man with AoE mez and some bombers could literally blow up an entire zerg in seconds if they werent ready. Also people always like to bring up rewards for GW2 WvW. The only noticeable reward you even got from RvR was having access to DF, which kinda didnt really matter as most people used crafted gear that was SCed anyways. Well I guess the bonus from relics was nice but Albs on my realm seemed to have all six of them 90% of the time so I dont know. While on that topic we are having this world restructuring thing happen to hopefully solve population imbalances. Most servers in DAoC had one realm that completely dominated while the others were so bad most people ended up contributing to the problem even more when they rerolled to the winning side. So how exactly did Mythic get it right or was it mostly because MMOs back then still had that new car smell?

[Chorazin.4107]

At the very beginning DAoC was horribly broken, but given that it was the first time anything like that had existed people put up with the bad balance. What game in existence allowed you as part of a realm of unique classes/races with their own lore and thematic to clash vs people playing another faction with totally different races/classes/thematic in an MMO environment. I like the fact that in game you could not communicate at all with players from the other realms, you had to use 3rd party software for that.

If you were there at the start guilds like Fury who leveled faster than most others were renowned for the constant AoE stun/AoE hammers spam from Healers/Thanes. So you would get caught in AoE stun and never move again until the hammers of doom killed you.

But they quickly fixed this with immunity timers, once you had been stunned via a spell you couldnt be stunned via a spell for another minute, same with the long duration mesmerisation, immune for a minute. It broke on any damage, tanks had determination to reduce the duration. Realm abilities could remove it(purge) or make you invulnerable to it like Speed of Sound and Charge and classes spells and abilities could remove it, Bard, Sorc, Healer as well as bolstering roar from heavy tanks was a PBAoE removal of CC.

There was a lot more to earn than Darkness Falls, Realm Abilities, this is direct character progression, you could increase your stats or gain cool abilities to help your group or yourself. And they eventually got it right for progression, initially having purge locked behind other choices was just bad for the game. That just meant high ranked characters could buy purge but starting players could not. Changing this was a big step forward, after the changes buying into abilities was cheap and you accrued points fast at low realm rank. As you got to high realm rank points came a lot slower and ability purchases were much more expensive if you are looking to go to say a level 5 in an ability.

The dominant realm was generally always tag teamed by the other two realms because they had all the relics. Not really much point attacking Hibs/Mids keeps if Alb has all the relics. That is not the case in GW, ur better off from a scoring perspective picking off keeps/forts of the server the dominant server is attacking. Rather than the two smaller servers hitting the larger server.

There were a few death knells for DAoC, ToA was far too much old school MMO PvE grind in a game where a lot of people loved the WvW aspect. And it was absolutely crazy levels of power creep/Pay to Win. You were non competitive in a WvW environment vs a master level 10 player with all his artifacts leveled to 10 if you were on Vanilla plus Shrouded Isles(they got this expansion right). That and it got old, the graphics certainly didnt age well, no fashion wars to speak of. They did try and correct some things by allowing a lot of the artifacts levels and ML's to be purchased rather than ground out for those more WvW focused but it was far too late.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Dabrixmgp.4758 said:So how exactly did Mythic get it right or was it mostly because MMOs back then still had that new car smell?

More like people looking back with rose tinted glasses.

Remember that WvW was also great once? Yeah I'm sure we all remember that.

[Sovereign.1093]

wvw is still fun and epic. there are those who just whine and troll. :/

[FrizzFreston.5290]

I stopped reading at "DAoC RvR was the best... Before the expansions..."

[PariahX.6970]

Mostly it was just luck, right place at the right time, 1st one of its kind with a player-base willing and ready to put up insane bugs, out of whack balance and months of hardcore play to reach max level in an environment where you had to depend on your community for success. These are not things that would work today at the current level of MMORPG evolution and never will again, human nature does not allow us to go backwards. I use to want to believe Jacobs was a genius but really he just won the game development lottery and was there to capitalize on the mood and technology of 2002. Once you were hooked it took years and years of disappointment to see all flaws because even after all that, once in awhile it was still an amazingly thrilling game with outcomes always uncertain. I would never trade my MMO cherry popper experience for the world, made life long friends in that game and learned a ton about myself in the process. <3 For me GW2 could never compare because of the lack of community development which happened organically in DAoC due to how hard it was to start out there but I also could never go back and dedicate that level of commitment to a game again anyways so GW2 is a better fit for the time.

[Turk.5460]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Dabrixmgp.4758 said:So how exactly did Mythic get it right or was it mostly because MMOs back then still had that new car smell?

More like people looking back with rose tinted glasses.

Remember that WvW was also great once? Yeah I'm sure we all remember that.

Absolutely, and some people can't fathom the thought that their first experience may not have been as perfect as they remember.

RvR was incredibly fun, yes, but so is WvW. And GW2 has a FAR superior combat system and balance than DAoC ever did. Multiply previous statement tenfold when referring to gear that came from Trials of Atlantis. Who remembers being mez'd for an entire minute while the enemy has a train of melee /stick to your realmmates one by one? Or PBAoE'd? Don't like evade Thieves in GW2 1v1? Try fighting a Friar...

[Grim West.3194]

GW2 WvW is only about the zerg. Small groups need not apply. DAoC is somewhat balanced around 8 players. There is also the zerg of course, but it isn't the only playstyle. Solo, duo's etc all can find something to do in DAoC.

DAoC had a lot of issues also. GW2 is a technical marvel. And it's much easier to get geared up for GW2. Etc. But the lack of small group content really is a turn off for a lot of old DAoC players. And why many of them gave up on GW2 right after launch.

[Thz.7569]

Mainly just the combat system. First of all, tab target is absolutely the best choice in a game where you're dealing with a large population. Then there comes long range, restricted movement/casting, long duration CC and no aoe caps. You pile these things together, you can out-do larger unorganized #s with a single group.

[devastoscz.9851]

@Grim West.3194 said:GW2 WvW is only about the zerg. Small groups need not apply. DAoC is somewhat balanced around 8 players. There is also the zerg of course, but it isn't the only playstyle. Solo, duo's etc all can find something to do in DAoC.

DAoC had a lot of issues also. GW2 is a technical marvel. And it's much easier to get geared up for GW2. Etc. But the lack of small group content really is a turn off for a lot of old DAoC players. And why many of them gave up on GW2 right after launch.

I disagree there. My guild (JOY) runs 2-15 (average 8 or so) players every night. Avoid zergs, kill their backlines and stragglers, put pressure on towers, prevent structure upgrades, kill off reinforcements during keep sieges. There's plenty to do, its just zergs are common and you have to be very aware of your positioning and escaping abilities if you want to avoid getting run over.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Dabrixmgp.4758" said:So how exactly did Mythic get it right or was it mostly because MMOs back then still had that new car smell?

More like people looking back with rose tinted glasses.

Remember that WvW was also great once? Yeah I'm sure we all remember that.

Ikr...wouldn't we all be there right now?

E.g. it's just "a new car smell."

[Grim West.3194]

@Strages.2950 said:

@Grim West.3194 said:GW2 WvW is only about the zerg. Small groups need not apply. DAoC is somewhat balanced around 8 players. There is also the zerg of course, but it isn't the only playstyle. Solo, duo's etc all can find something to do in DAoC.

DAoC had a lot of issues also. GW2 is a technical marvel. And it's much easier to get geared up for GW2. Etc. But the lack of small group content really is a turn off for a lot of old DAoC players. And why many of them gave up on GW2 right after launch.

I disagree there. My guild (JOY) runs 2-15 (average 8 or so) players every night. Avoid zergs, kill their backlines and stragglers, put pressure on towers, prevent structure upgrades, kill off reinforcements during keep sieges. There's plenty to do, its just zergs are common and you have to be very aware of your positioning and escaping abilities if you want to avoid getting run over.

GW2's small group play is lame compared to DAoC. That's just the way it is. It's the main reason why most of the people I knew from DAoC, etc don't play this game.. Some tried and the vast majority bailed right after launch. Many of them are ex military (or still in) and they like squad play. 8 man's, etc.

That isn't to say GW2 has no place for roamers and small groups but the game's design is for the zerg. Small groups are an after thought. Havoc play is sporadic at best and usually very boring.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Grim West.3194 said:

GW2's small group play is lame compared to DAoC. That's just the way it is. It's the main reason why most of the people I knew from DAoC, etc don't play this game.. Some tried and the vast majority bailed right after launch. Many of them are ex military (or still in) and they like squad play. 8 man's, etc.

That isn't to say GW2 has no place for roamers and small groups but the game's design is for the zerg. Small groups are an after thought. Havoc play is sporadic at best and usually very boring.

Didn't play DAoC, but played WAR until they turned the lights off and am a backer of CU due to that. What content would say that DAoC offered small groups, going to call them Havocs here, that GW2 doesn't? When playing with other DAoC players they made it seem like more options for zerg busting due to the CC and such. For you was it more the synergy in the classes and an 8 man or something else? Just curious.

[Thesilentflute.8761]

I wouldn't put the cart to far in front of the horse. There is a ton of hope out there for crowfall as well which has a swg guy on the team which is probably my fav mmo of all time, but I am staying away because they are using the unity engine. The UC guys say they created the first engine that can truely handle large scale battles, but there have been so many crowdfunded games that promise the world we will see; that being said there is a lot they have to do right. Gw2 does a lot right which is more than i can say for any other mmo.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Thesilentflute.8761 said:I wouldn't put the cart to far in front of the horse. There is a ton of hope out there for crowfall as well which has a swg guy on the team which is probably my fav mmo of all time, but I am staying away because they are using the unity engine. The UC guys say they created the first engine that can truely handle large scale battles, but there have been so many crowdfunded games that promise the world we will see; that being said there is a lot they have to do right. Gw2 does a lot right which is more than i can say for any other mmo.

Don't get me wrong, enjoy GW2 WvW quite a bit, but they did need to innovate since you do have these other MMOs coming out that realize WvW style content is endgame. The new WvW concept here to me is a pre-test to the concept that Ashes of Creation is running with. Let natural player populations create the strife and define the sides that players will take, just in this case there is also a measure of system assignment to handle the rest of the players that might let the wind lead them.

[Grim West.3194]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Grim West.3194 said:

GW2's small group play is lame compared to DAoC. That's just the way it is. It's the main reason why most of the people I knew from DAoC, etc don't play this game.. Some tried and the vast majority bailed right after launch. Many of them are ex military (or still in) and they like squad play. 8 man's, etc.

That isn't to say GW2 has no place for roamers and small groups but the game's design is for the zerg. Small groups are an after thought. Havoc play is sporadic at best and usually very boring.

Didn't play DAoC, but played WAR until they turned the lights off and am a backer of CU due to that. What content would say that DAoC offered small groups, going to call them Havocs here, that GW2 doesn't? When playing with other DAoC players they made it seem like more options for zerg busting due to the CC and such. For you was it more the synergy in the classes and an 8 man or something else? Just curious.

Well WAR had similar places for small havoc groups. We played a lot of WAR. Great game. 2 factions hurt it though.

There are a lot of reasons why GW2 doesn't work as well for havoc groups, and I couldn't name them all.. Certainly not an expert. Thz hit on a few very good reasons above. So much is different about GW2, especially the lack of trinity, cc, etc. Map design in GW2 doesn't help. And the lack of rewards. Although even when GW2 had rewards (that were hacked) it still didn't promote small group play. Whatever the reasons, the reality is that DAoC worked much better for people who didn't enjoy following the zerg.

I think the Alliance system could help small group play in the long run. It should give the Devs more room to play with the other game systems once in place. Right now with the server situation, they seem to be stuck because of the player imbalances.

[Keypek.5716]

Like people have said, there wasn't anything quite as fun as being in a well rounded 8 man with some people you liked and roaming around OF or NF. Yeah, the ridiculous CC was very oppressive if you weren't in a group with competent people but if you were it was so freaking fun. It is the nostalgia factor too. Also, faction/server pride actually existed in the beginning which will never happen in a MMO again unfortunately. Personally, I really enjoyed the classic servers after they came out. Rode out ector>ywain servers till they died. I didn't hate toa just preferred the old school. Still played a few years after classic tanked but once Mythic got bought out by EA the game support died. Enjoyed Warhammer also but not as much as daoc.... if it wasn't so buggy and supported by EA it wouldn't have died so quickly. EA ruins everything.