Thief down state - worst of them all

[emblack.3754]

I dare you to contradict me on this one. Did an spvp match where a scourge dominated the match, go figure. I tried to push far and just my luck the scourge defended it. After gut wrenching gameplay and inhuman reactions (at least by my standards) I managed to down him while being downed myself after 2 seconds. Guess what, his down state > my down state - life leach > tickle damage. Naturally I lost that encounter after I technically won it.

You`d be hard pressed to find a downed state more useless than a thief's.

[kash.9213]

The port suffers the same path issues as shadowstep and it's not far enough to even make a difference in any game mode. All the daggers do is tell someone that you're over in some corner and ready to be stomped. The stealth is alright to stall a stomp so that's about it to help your friends get you back in the game.

[Turk.5460]

Our self-stomp deny is pretty darn good, we can do it twice, only Engies can match that, and theirs isn't even as reliable as it is negated by stability. The damage of the dagger throw is a little low, and it's cripple effect is pretty much worthless in downstate - but if you have condition damage and dagger training traited, that skill is a beast as those poison stacks add up FAST.

I think you're being a little over-dramatic. But I do believe our dagger throw should be considered for a minor buff, or at least replacing the cripple with something like a .5s immob.

[emblack.3754]

@Turk.5460 said:Our self-stomp deny is pretty darn good, we can do it twice, only Engies can match that, and theirs isn't even as reliable as it is negated by stability. The damage of the dagger throw is a little low, and it's cripple effect is pretty much worthless in downstate - but if you have condition damage and dagger training traited, that skill is a beast as those poison stacks add up FAST.

I think you're being a little over-dramatic. But I do believe our dagger throw should be considered for a minor buff, or at least replacing the cripple with something like a .5s immob.

Well it's not that our down state is that bad, it's that the other professions have it way better. I'm still stunned by how effective the necro drain is, and don't get me started on the ranger pet heal...

[saerni.2584]

Thief downstate damage is ok if you run a poison based condition build and the enemy has lower condition clears.

That said, the power damage is fairly low unless you are really glassy and the escapes are relatively short range or duration.

For how little HP we have our downstate could afford to do more damage (say via a stealth attack while downed).

Or we could have a longer cooldown but Lesser Shadow Refuge that heals us and provides a longer duration stealth than a blinding powder.

[reikken.4961]

necro is going to beat out most classes in a 1v1 downed state fight because of the self heal, butcondi thief has one of the best downed states in the game. really strong poison application, keeping up about 10 stacks, which lets you continue to apply damage pressure while downed, plus ability to reposition, and a secondary reliable stomp interrupt.power thief lacks the damage, yes, but it still has the other things. about on par with ele

[TheWolf.1602]

ranger probably has the best down state, not only because of the pet heal, but often the pet stands inbetween players, blocking your attacks...

[MrForz.1953]

Engi has some low, somewhat condition based attack that triggers all the conditions except damaging ones and some pull everyone doesn't care about anyways.

[arenta.2953]

@TheWolf.1602 said:ranger probably has the best down state, not only because of the pet heal, but often the pet stands inbetween players, blocking your attacks...

and necro has the 2nd best

its pulse heals itself

add on Vamperic, Vamperic Presense

and it heals faster than it loses hp

add that pve trait where attacking when downed heals you. and its a near guarenteed res

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

I'm honestly fine with thief being weak when down. A good thief is usually a pain in the butt to knock down in the first place.

As for Necros... well there's a joke that tends to actually be true about this. A necro generally feels at their strongest when they are lying down.

The one suggestion I'd make here... is to change the invisible to a camoflauge state that NPCs have, where you're invisible indefinitely as long as you don't take another action.

This seems overpowered, but a little more justified than you'd think.

A warrior can immediately get back onto his feet and do a lot of damage to rally.Ele can get up and run for a pretty good distance, so they can go through doors and even round corners and jump off of ledges.A Ranger has his pet to heal him while he heals.A Guardian is able to heal people while he's on the ground.A Revenant can forcefully reposition people, which is actually more useful than shadow stepping yourself.Mesmer better damage than thief on the ground.

Honestly... Thief should be more slippery on the ground, but you got a 1sec stealth and a short ranged teleport.

[DeceiverX.8361]

The only situation where thief's downed state is weak is when fighting another player also in downed state in a mutual down. Otherwise, it's probably one of the best ones from how reliable it can avoid stomps and save itself from cleave.

Necro's is super strong but honestly only really from the damage perspective. A person stomping with stability, stealth, distortion, blocks, etc. and it's tied for worst.

Thief's downed state is in a good spot. It's utility-heavy, but that's okay. We have enough damage while we're alive and most of the time, the utility is more helpful.

[Crinn.7864]

@arenta.2953 said:

@TheWolf.1602 said:ranger probably has the best down state, not only because of the pet heal, but often the pet stands inbetween players, blocking your attacks...

and necro has the 2nd bestits pulse heals itselfadd on Vamperic, Vamperic Presenseand it heals faster than it loses hp

Vamperic Presence does not apply in downstate. Only the minor lifesteal does.

Also even with a blood magic build necro downstate still does less healing than the base bleed out rate.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@arenta.2953 said:

@TheWolf.1602 said:ranger probably has the best down state, not only because of the pet heal, but often the pet stands inbetween players, blocking your attacks...

and necro has the 2nd bestits pulse heals itselfadd on Vamperic, Vamperic Presenseand it heals faster than it loses hp

Vamperic Presence does not apply in downstate. Only the minor lifesteal does.

Also even with a blood magic build necro downstate still does less healing than the base bleed out rate.

Unless this was changed without mentioning it in a recent patch, this isn't true. It's always net-gained health.

[Imperadordf.2687]

At least Thief has 2 abilities that are worth to use.Revenant #3 - Absolute TrashNecromancer #3 TrashMesmer Auto - TrashMesmer #2 - Stealths you but sometimes doesn’t even interrupt stomp.Elementalist Auto - TrashElementalist #3 - Trash

Thief has 2 stomp interrupting skills and a decent power auto - perfect condi auto

[Boulder.3589]

Necro downed state is just super strong. Even stronger in pve with the mastery downed signet. Was soloing some champ , couldn't out sustain the damage and went down, then the champ couldn't out dps my lifesteal. Had to stop attacking every one in a while to make sure I don't accidentally revivie myself, eventually killed champ ofcourse.

[Llethander.3972]

I defy you. Mesmer has the worst down state imaginable. I mean, the 1 skill is condi so if you're running a power build it hits like a wet noodle and the 2 skill ports you in a random direction while generating the most obvious clone. And I swear, the "random" blink from the 2 knows where the damaging AoE fields are and actively works to deposit you in the middle of one whenever possible.

[Dahkeus.8243]

Is this a joke? Just because you can't out-tank a downed necro in thief downed state doesn't make it bad.

I mean, even if you're just comparing thief downed state to necro downed state, a 1 v 1 downed state fight is the only situation where necro is better. In almost every other circumstance thief is better since we have 2 ways to avoid stomps and necro only has one that's easily countered by stability. There's far less counters to land a stomp on a thief than there is for necro.

[Faaris.8013]

In PvE, I cannot tell how often the port got me out of very bad situations. Downed in lava, the shore might just be in range of the port. Get downed at MAMA and a poison field is coming up? No problem, downed port got your back. Doing the heat room and get downed on the last meters? Just port into the console chamber and you are immediately up again. Get downed at an orb at Ensolyss? Maybe you can port to that spot where the blue healing ball is going, bang, immediately up again. Thaumanova, got downed at a platform that is about to vanish or fell and are in downed state in the center? No problem, just port to your buddies who get you up again.

In WvW, I sometimes manage to get out of reach while my thieves guild buddies keep hitting the other downed guy.

[Ghost.5637]

I love thief downstate I have never let someone stomp me :)

[shippage.1983]

Just because you lost to the best downstate in game, doesn't mean Thief has the worst. It's actually pretty high up there compared to the others.

[Aplier.7829]

Thief downstate isn't really about doing damage or healing yourself, so yeah it's probably gonna lose in a 1v1 downstate fight against most other professions. Thief downstate is more about doing what thief does best: avoiding bad stuff as long as possible. Cripple on the bouncing attack makes it a bit slower for other players to get up to you and stomp you, and when they get there you have both stealth and a shadowstep for further delay.

Will you still get stomped eventually if no allies comes to your aid? Yeah but the same is true of just about everyone else too.

[Razi.6031]

I just wish they allow us to port through portals in wvw. That pathing needs a fix. Or nerf ele to not be able to port in during downstate mist form.

Its become a meme how many times ele make sure they aren't further than 600 range from a tower portal.

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

@emblack.3754 said:I dare you to contradict me on this one. Did an spvp match where a scourge dominated the match, go figure. I tried to push far and just my luck the scourge defended it. After gut wrenching gameplay and inhuman reactions (at least by my standards) I managed to down him while being downed myself after 2 seconds. Guess what, his down state > my down state - life leach > tickle damage. Naturally I lost that encounter after I technically won it.

You`d be hard pressed to find a downed state more useless than a thief's.

Fire a black powder cloud off pistol 5 over them. Shuts their leeching right down. Interrupts can help as well.

[Faaris.8013]

@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:

@emblack.3754 said:I dare you to contradict me on this one. Did an spvp match where a scourge dominated the match, go figure. I tried to push far and just my luck the scourge defended it. After gut wrenching gameplay and inhuman reactions (at least by my standards) I managed to down him while being downed myself after 2 seconds. Guess what, his down state > my down state - life leach > tickle damage. Naturally I lost that encounter after I technically won it.

You`d be hard pressed to find a downed state more useless than a thief's.

Fire a black powder cloud off pistol 5 over them. Shuts their leeching right down. Interrupts can help as well.

From downed state?

[Tails.9372]

Let's see:

Trail of Knives: best AoE P/P has to offer, works well with Signet of Agony if multiple targets are present

Shadow Escape: quite useful, no complaints here

Smoke Bomb: takes to long to be available and the stealth is too short to be useful

One skill could use some improvements but overall it's actually one of the better downstates.