[HONEST] Happy core Engi change; Disappointed with Scrapper buff

[MicROpart.7905]

I mean most of engi player ask to rework the trait to have lot of synergy with core trait and they just said "This Spec is supposed to be tank spec" (well duuuuh) and they just buff it by adding barrier in some traits?

Scrapper still have lot of worthless traits and mechanic on it especially GYROS

Here are my thoughts of all Scrapper Traits and GYROS:

1.Shocking Speed trait ll are people still care whether they use any finisher in a heat of battle and know on what field they are using it? maybe water field finisher still usable but lightning field?? are people using this trait? compare to the other trait?? pfft

2.Perfectly Weighted trait ll if u thinking on playing engi in a melee style fighting, i dont think people gonna choose Scrapper over Holosmith, even most of Holosmith utility skills and trait is quite tanky enough to do the most dps in melee range, so im sure people not gonna use hammer at all..

3.Rapid Regeneration trait ll this is actually a good trait but since PoF release and the meta switch to boon corruption u wont benefit most of the time from it..

4.Expert Examination trait ll I remember scrapper is good in stun and daze as well as survivability class but then most stun and daze(of scrapper) are come from the lightning field(leap finisher) which people dont care anymore, with the change of the minor trait "Impact Savant" (it was increasing stun duration or whatever) they forgot that they left this trait. is not going to benefit the spec anymore..

5.Final Salvo trait ll among all the traits of scrapper, this is the only traits that improve Scrapper main mechanic or Selling point GYROS..Firebrand have TOMES AND MANTRAS, 3-4 traits of firebrand is improving their mechanic work, Scourges Have SHADES, almost all their traits are give benefit in using shades, but this??? this is the only traits that improving the main sell point of the Scrapper it self?? and what it give? owh, only 1 stack of Stability and 2 seconds of Superspeed to only our self and gyros?? owh and more lightning field that doesnt do anything??..great! at least make this trait to improve how gyros benefit us, like each gyros have their own effect and improve it with this trait, like what they did to turrets and spirit weapon..or something i dont know..

6.Speaking about Gyros ll almost all the engineer(Scrapper) players are very frustating with how Gyros AI(isnt it called AI?) behave, even Necro minion that half of their brain eaten and covered by flesh and blood with lil bit bone in there are more clever..What happen there???

7.Hammer ll most of the hammer skill are very good, it has area stun and again Lightning field(haha) evade ability that deal damage (uuuh awesome) , block skill damage people (nice!) and even projectile reflector skill..its so good!! I even thinking Why dont they swap Hammer to Sword, so I can use Hammer with Holosmith?? yes this the problem, as I said before if people want to play melee style engi(the only build that viable for engi melee duuuh) people rather to use HOLOSMITH over SCRAPPER but they have to drop their hammer and using that "Ewhh" Sword Holosmith provide..even most of the people choose rifle over that (HAHAHAHA!)

TL;dr After the last balance patch, Scrapper is getting better but not enough, just by adding barrier mechanic and said "This spec is intended to be tank spec", and i was like "What???? Scourges has barrier too and a lot stronger and tankier than Scrapper, this change is not enough". it look like they are out of ideas? or they dont have man power to make their briliant idea works?, i dont know..But for me Scrapper is still in Oblivion and PLS ANET, GYROS NEED MORE LOVE THAN THIS and yes we gonna have to wait another 3-4 months to see anything happen to scrapper which I might thinking that they forgot there is a spec called Scrapper, who knows?? :D

[Obtena.7952]

Saying Scrapper is a tank spec is too general. Tanking for what? Because tanking for PVP, WvW and PVE are alot different things.

I DO think the barriers as implemented are weak/conditional. I guess it was done that way to encourage the use of the specific class tools. Still, I think if you manage to revive someone in competitive PVP/WvW ... your Barrier reward should be significantly higher. Maybe I'm weird but I think the Gyros work well; the AI is weird? What AI do they have? They float and proc effects.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Obtena.7952 said:Maybe I'm weird but I think the Gyros work well; the AI is weird? What AI do they have? They float and proc effects.

• Watch the gyros try to deal with stairs. It's hilariously bad. Blast gyros are particularly bad with this.
• If you have a bad latency, the AI will also flip out trying to stay centered on you, as it's going where the server thinks you are.
• Certain gyros, such as purge or bulwark, will occasionally float towards allies who might need help, only to leave you defenseless while you're locked in combat. They sometimes get caught sauntering between two allies (such as you and your buddy) and do nothing while both allies die.
• Stealth gyro, bulwark, and purge gyro cannot keep up with the player moving at full tilt (problem is amplified under superspeed [ironically] or swiftness). The player has to baby their AI in order for it to keep up.

What they need to do is change defensive gyros so that they're literally bound to the engineer, like the function gyro that floats by the engineer's head. They could still have their own health bars. This would stop a lot of the AI stupidity while still being lore-friendly. Blast gyro should operate like an arrow, not an AI, and shredder's stationary anyway, so that doesn't need changing as far as AI.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

since superspeed doesn't stack, shocking speed+rapid regen+final salvo and utility skills that grant superpeed are pretty incompatible.

[bambi.6214]

Despite ANet's intention, Scapper's traitline doesn't feel tanky enough. Core engi cleansing is good and with potential, but barrier generated by Scrapper if far too weak. Replacing all the superspeed in trait line with barrier might be a cool and interesting step.

[MicROpart.7905]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Maybe I'm weird but I think the Gyros work well; the AI is weird? What AI do they have? They float and proc effects.

• Watch the gyros try to deal with stairs. It's hilariously bad. Blast gyros are particularly bad with this.
• If you have a bad latency, the AI will also flip out trying to stay centered on you, as it's going where the server thinks you are.
• Certain gyros, such as purge or bulwark, will occasionally float towards allies who
  might
  need help, only to leave you defenseless while you're locked in combat. They sometimes get caught sauntering between two allies (such as you and your buddy) and do nothing while both allies die.
• Stealth gyro, bulwark, and purge gyro cannot keep up with the player moving at full tilt (problem is amplified under superspeed [ironically] or swiftness). The player has to baby their AI in order for it to keep up.

What they need to do is change defensive gyros so that they're literally bound to the engineer, like the function gyro that floats by the engineer's head. They could still have their own health bars. This would stop a lot of the AI stupidity while still being lore-friendly. Blast gyro should operate like an arrow, not an AI, and shredder's stationary anyway, so that doesn't need changing as far as AI.

I actualy hope they increase the ammount of healtbar that gyros have, bulwark gyro is to easy to get destroyed!!

[Deniara Devious.3948]

@"Samug.6512" said:Despite ANet's intention, Scapper's traitline doesn't feel tanky enough. Core engi cleansing is good and with potential, but barrier generated by Scrapper if far too weak. Replacing all the superspeed in trait line with barrier might be a cool and interesting step.

Core engi's cleansing is good? The removal of alchemical tinctures trait removed 16 condition cleansing skills from engineer == massive nerf. Engineer has a total of 7 elixir skills (+ 7 toolbelt skills), and healing mist and super elixir from elixir gun and elixir shell from mortar. Previously if you had alchemy line selected all these skills would remove a condition.

It is a fact that elixirs got gutted. Alchemy line is now significantly worse and inventions line got buffed. I don't understand how this is supposedly better for build diversity. Now previously alchemy was almost mandatory. Now making another trait line almost mandatory is basically back to same situation, but with a different twist: now you need 2 trait lines for good condition removal (instead of 1)! To get good condition removal as core engineers, you must take both inventions and alchemy and play XXX/shield. In Core engineer this would mean that pistol/shield is the only weapon set with good condition cleansing potential. There is no way to build pistol/pistol or rifle core engineer with good condition removal. And please don't tell me "You still have elixir C" <-- look at the CD and how often massive condition stacks are reapplied in WvWvW.

[coglin.1496]

This is a discussion about Scrapper, not yet another place for you to make a personal rant about core engineer.

Why do you ignore the cleanses on healing turret?

You do not need two lines for condition cleanses. You keep declaring that in multiple threads. You can use one line and have 7 options for protection (9 with the right runes) as well as direct skills such as elixir c and healing turret, to directly cleanse or convert conditions.

It is clear that you do not really care about adapting and using the tools available to you to do the job. All you care about is how it effected the specific build you were using before and how you feel personally slighted now that you need to adapt and are pushing against change.

[Ardid.7203]

What's the point of superspeed anyway? Does it have a real use?

[Phineas Poe.3018]

@"Deniara Devious.3948" said:Core engi's cleansing is good? The removal of alchemical tinctures trait removed 16 condition cleansing skills from engineer == massive nerf. Engineer has a total of 7 elixir skills (+ 7 toolbelt skills), and healing mist and super elixir from elixir gun and elixir shell from mortar. Previously if you had alchemy line selected all these skills would remove a condition.

Don't forget they also nerfed Transmute. Instead of converting 1 condition every 15 seconds, it converts 2 conditions every 60 (or every 48 with HGH).

I am so sick and tired of them nerfing core engi trait lines on the basis of how scrapper and holosmith operate. Scrapper too tanky? Let's nerf the shit out of Inventions. Holosmith has too much sustain for its damage output? Let's gut Alchemy. I just recently came back to the game on the news of the WvW server revamp, but this balance patch just makes me want to turn around and leave again.

Alchemy was the one trait line that actually had competitive choices at every tier and had three good minor traits. It had solid representation in both WvW and PvP, and even still they felt the need to have it be "cleaned up and [have] a few complete trait replacements to allow for greater synergy within [its] lines"; now the end result is the Alchemy trait line overall being nerfed.

Seriously, what is the rationale for these changes? Who even asked for Alchemy to be adjusted in any way, in the first place? And if you're going to just straight-up nerf the tree, don't tell us it's to "clean up" the trait line or "allow for greater synergy." That's all just bullshit window dressing, like that stupid "purity of purpose" excuse they gave years ago, to conceal your intent to just nerf us. If they genuinely wanted to clean up the engineer, there are way more important issues to focus on:

• Most gadgets are still complete trash
• Gyros still get stuck on terrain
• Turrets are still dumb as a rock and relatively useless
• There is still nothing competitive to the Healing Turret after over 5 years of balance

These changes to Alchemy are almost as aggravating as what they did to Kinetic Battery. They took a trait that was absolutely fantastic and had great utility in WvW (double Toss Elixir X in duels, for example) and they turned it into total garbage. But they didn't do it because they knew Toss Elixir X was overpowered; no, they did it because they have no idea what they're doing.

I'll probably get infracted for this post and I don't even really care; but while I don't know who exactly is signing off on these changes, it's very clear they just don't have a good understanding of what made core engineer a good class to play pre-Heart of Thorns.

They are clueless.

Listen to your veteran players. Listen to the people that have been playing this game for 6 years. Make a point to try and focus on fixes that are actually requested. And if holosmith or scrapper are too powerful, stick to nerfing those trait lines.

[Aetatis.5418]

@Ardid.7203 said:What's the point of superspeed anyway? Does it have a real use?

troll? did you do pvp or wvw at some point ingame? superspeed is a very strong tool !

[Ardid.7203]

Sorry I do very little WvW and rarely PvP, I really don't know how it is used.

[Shadowcat.2680]

@Ardid.7203 said:Sorry I do very little WvW and rarely PvP, I really don't know how it is used.

The 50% movement speed is useful for avoiding or closing in on an enemy. Superspeed also cannot be stripped or corrupted, the only caveat being that it doesn't stack as each new application of it replaces the old.

[Phineas Poe.3018]

@Ardid.7203 said:Sorry I do very little WvW and rarely PvP, I really don't know how it is used.

Super speed is actually the one thing that ArenaNet did right with the scrapper. Proper positioning is a pretty crucial element to winning WvW zerg fights, so any extra bit of mobility you can eke out of your team composition is huge. And when paired with a class that also has a massive stealth reveal on the sneak gyro tool belt, there's quite a few good reasons to bring at least one scrapper. Scrapper was actually a very solid WvW/GvG class early on in the Heart of Thorns meta, but it eventually got edged out by other professions as they whittled down the specialization with every subsequent nerf -- most notably the Slick Shoes nerf and the removal of gyro dazes.

This is why many of us find these patch notes so disappointing. There's no denying that the scrapper was absolutely overpowered at HoT launch, but it's frustrating seeing them continue to tinker with the specialization without addressing the actual big problems of the specialization: gyro pathing is completely unacceptable, and they get frequently stuck on terrain or confused by elevation. Especially with the way Stonemist and some of the towers are designed, not to mention the entire Desert Borderland, your gyros often end up exploding out of position and being ultimately pretty useless. You're better off just using staff elementalists, who can fulfill the many of the same responsibilities while also dropping huge water and fire fields and can layer tons more zonal pressure.

I get it that these are difficult problems to solve, but these kinds of issues are the reason why pet AI builds aren't such a great idea. They willfully walked themselves into this corner, and it's their responsibility to walk themselves out of it. I paid $50 to play this stupid specialization, and for that reason they're kind of obligated to make it useful for more than 18 months of this game's life. Any other result is just poor business decision-making. People will stop buying expansions if the specializations they're paying for always eventually get thrown into the trash heap in place of the next best thing. That kind of Flavor of the Year approach to balance is not sustainable.

[coglin.1496]

@"Phineas Poe.3018" said:Super speed is actually the one thing that ArenaNet did right with the scrapper. Proper positioning is a pretty crucial element to winning WvW zerg fights, so any extra bit of mobility you can eke out of your team composition is huge. And when paired with a class that also has a massive stealth reveal on the sneak gyro tool belt, there's quite a few good reasons to bring at least one scrapper. Scrapper was actually a very solid WvW/GvG class early on in the Heart of Thorns meta, but it eventually got edged out by other professions as they whittled down the specialization with every subsequent nerf -- most notably the Slick Shoes nerf and the removal of gyro dazes.

As far as WvW/GvG there was never a reason at all to bring a scrapper. No commander and absolutely no GvG team or team leader ever even came close to answering the question of "What profession do you want me to bring?" with Scrapper or engineer in any way, at any point in time, preHoT, post HoT or otherwise.

This is why many of us find these patch notes so disappointing. There's no denying that the scrapper was absolutely overpowered at HoT launch, but it's frustrating seeing them continue to tinker with the specialization without addressing the actual big problems of the specialization: gyro pathing is completely unacceptable, and they get frequently stuck on terrain or confused by elevation. Especially with the way Stonemist and some of the towers are designed, not to mention the entire Desert Borderland, your gyros often end up exploding out of position and being ultimately pretty useless. You're better off just using staff elementalists, who can fulfill the many of the same responsibilities while also dropping huge water and fire fields and can layer tons more zonal pressure.

Where was it overpowered and how? The only area anyone considered it even remotely strong was in PvP in which players complained about CC from gyros.

I completely agree with you about gyro pathing. This is not a gyro related issue though. This is an issue plaguing minions in any game in the history of video games. Personally, I feel as far as the Scrapper goes, the solution is simply to attack the gyro to the player character in the fashion that function gyro is and allow the benefit/buff of the gyros functionality to simply work in an AoE around the player. Adjustments would need to be made for blast gyro, otherwise, I think the idea is sound.

I get it that these are difficult problems to solve, but these kinds of issues are the reason why pet AI builds aren't such a great idea. They willfully walked themselves into this corner, and it's their responsibility to walk themselves out of it.

Personally, I feel AI issues are the easiest thing in the world to solve. Avoid AI and refrain from hindering your players by giving player characters AI at all, so I absolutely agree with you that they are not a great idea.

I paid $50 to play this stupid specialization, and for that reason they're kind of obligated to make it useful for more than 18 months of this game's life. Any other result is just poor business decision-making. People will stop buying expansions if the specializations they're paying for always eventually get thrown into the trash heap in place of the next best thing. That kind of Flavor of the Year approach to balance is not sustainable.

Why did you spend money on something you could easily test in betas, just to complain about how you are owed something now? You had multiple opportunities to know what you were getting into.

I have not seen a single core engineer in the game at all, not PvP, WvW, or even PvP, so I am not entirely clear what bases you are using to determine no one likes the engineer elite specs. I mean, I do not personally enjoy the concept and intention behind Holosmith, that is a personal perspective though, but PoF sold rather well and my experience suggest those playing WvW and PvP have Scrapper in good favor all around again.

[Phineas Poe.3018]

@coglin.1496 said:Where was it overpowered and how? The only area anyone considered it even remotely strong was in PvP in which players complained about CC from gyros.

The CC was whatever. Slick Shoes had been in the game since launch, and the nerf to Slick Shoes was more because engineers were crushing Gorseval's break bar single-handedly, and because ArenaNet was then still insistent on balancing all modes across the game. I also actually thought removing the gyro daze was a mistake.

The real problem was the sustain; it was unbelievable. Scrapper at launch could literally sustain 1v2 indefinitely (standing on the point) and reliably win 1v1s against pretty much any class in the game. That was back when Rocket Charge had three leap finishers, when Rapid Regeneration healed for significantly more health, when Adaptive Armor gave you like 100 toughness per tick, and when gyros had much lower cooldowns.

All of these nerfs were justified.

The problem is that they didn't stop there. As you know, Automated Medical Response was nerfed from a 90 to a 120 second cooldown. Bunker Down was nerfed from a 2 to a 3 second cooldown. Protection Injection was nerfed from a 5 to have a 10 second cooldown. They didn't make any of these changes because core engi revealed itself to be an incoming threat to HoT specs; they made these changes because they had no idea what to do with scrappers, so they just nerfed everything. They gutted the overall effectiveness to many of our defensive traits by a significant degree, at times upwards to a 33-50% reduction. Because of scrapper.

And now, instead of properly addressing the issues latent with the holosmith, they grabbed a hatchet in both hands and completely axed our class's condition removal. Not the scrapper's condition removal: Purge Gyro was left alone. Not the holosmith's condition removal: Prismatic Converter is exactly the same as it was in the beta weekend. No, they just chose to completely gut our class's main access to condition removal.

These kinds of decisions are completely indefensible. Nerfing core trait lines like Alchemy and Inventions kills build diversity. It heightens our dependency on elite specializations to carry our builds, and it thrusts the engineer into a house of cards situation. The meta has never been more strict in PvP and WvW, and core engi trait lines have never been more comparatively weaker to their elite counterparts.

Why did you spend money on something you could easily test in betas, just to complain about how you are owed something now? You had multiple opportunities to know what you were getting into.

Coglin, I paid $50 to play the scrapper and have use of it forever. I didn't pay $50 for Heart of Thorns only to have it completely replaced two years later. That's a terrible business practice, and there isn't a single MMORPG in existence that survives under such a model. Even in the worst days of WoW's favoritism toward DKs, warriors and druids still had a place in raids.

Do you really think World of Warcraft would still have the level of permanence it did if it went up to DKs and told them to eff off and swap to demonhunter the second Legion launched? Heck no.

Besides, wasn't Guild Wars 2 not about invalidating old expansion content? If this kind of balance is acceptable, then we need to stop saying that Guild Wars 2 is a horizontal progression game. Core -> Scrapper -> Holosmith in PvP is in every way a form of gated vertical progression.

And if they can't handle balancing multiple elite specializations and keeping them competitive to one another, then they need to stop adding them.

I have not seen a single core engineer in the game at all, not PvP, WvW, or even PvP, so I am not entirely clear what bases you are using to determine no one likes the engineer elite specs.

Core engi was the dominant PvE spec for the entirety of Heart of Thorns. People play what's meta. You don't see core engineers anymore because the F2P players were literally pushed away from PvP/WvW and because core engi simply isn't meta anywhere.

[coglin.1496]

@Phineas Poe.3018 said:

@"coglin.1496" said:Where was it overpowered and how? The only area anyone considered it even remotely strong was in PvP in which players complained about CC from gyros.

The CC was whatever. Slick Shoes had been in the game since launch, and the nerf to Slick Shoes was more because engineers were crushing Gorseval's break bar single-handedly, and because ArenaNet was then still insistent on balancing all modes across the game. I also actually thought removing the gyro daze was a mistake.

What does SS have to do with what I explained about gyro CC?

Can you link me a dev post declaring Gorseval's break bar was the reason for the nerf, because there are 7 post by Anet employees mention it in PvP/WvW setting yet I cannot find a single one supporting your claim here.

The real problem was the sustain; it was unbelievable. Scrapper at launch could literally sustain 1v2 indefinitely (standing on the point) and reliably win 1v1s against pretty much any class in the game. That was back when Rocket Charge had three leap finishers, when Rapid Regeneration healed for significantly more health, when Adaptive Armor gave you like 100 toughness per tick, and when gyros had much lower cooldowns.

What sustainability was nerfed to support that? Can you link me to dev post supporting this?

They nerfed hammer damage in 3 separate updates. Then they nerfed CC and gyro daze. They nerfed Adaptive armor last.

Can you link me to the update that they nerfed gyro cooldowns when you claim they were "much lower" I do not recall that?

All of these nerfs were justified.

That is your subjective opinion. I never felt the nerf to stun/daze was justified and the engineer communities universal outrage seems to suggest almost everyone disagreed with you.

The problem is that they didn't stop there. As you know, Automated Medical Response was nerfed from a 90 to a 120 second cooldown. Bunker Down was nerfed from a 2 to a 3 second cooldown. Protection Injection was nerfed from a 5 to have a 10 second cooldown. They didn't make any of these changes because core engi revealed itself to be an incoming threat to HoT specs; they made these changes because they had no idea what to do with scrappers, so they just nerfed everything. They gutted the overall effectiveness to many of our defensive traits by a significant degree, at times upwards to a 33-50% reduction. Because of scrapper.

You seem to be adding reasons for changes that there is no evidence of. I distinctly recall repeated threads being made in the PvP community that complained about AMR individually and outside of scrapper discussions for a very long period of time.

Bunker down trait was moved trait lines entirely and its functionality was changed entirely in the HoT preparation patch. Don't disingenuously act like it laid around in its current form for years before HoT released and drew its ire there. It had much much less damage, different ICD, and no med pack right up until HoT.

Which core engineer skills are you claiming received a "33%-50%" reduction exactly? I see no evidence that many ( at least more than 50% of the skills) were nerfed by 1/3 - 1/2. I would appreciate if you could offer listed facts to support that please.

And now, instead of properly addressing the issues latent with the holosmith, they grabbed a hatchet in both hands and completely axed our class's condition removal. Not the scrapper's condition removal: Purge Gyro was left alone. Not the holosmith's condition removal: Prismatic Converter is exactly the same as it was in the beta weekend. No, they just chose to completely gut our class's main access to condition removal.

What issues did Holosmith have precisely?

How did they gut out profession exactly?

These kinds of decisions are completely indefensible. Nerfing core trait lines like Alchemy and Inventions kills build diversity. It heightens our dependency on elite specializations to carry our builds, and it thrusts the engineer into a house of cards situation. The meta has never been more strict in PvP and WvW, and core engi trait lines have never been more comparatively weaker to their elite counterparts.

You appear to be confusing your subjective opinion with that of actual objective fact. I feel the decisions are extremely defensible and that the changes to alchemy/inventions lines were quit the positive change.

Coglin, I paid $50 to play the scrapper and have use of it forever. I didn't pay $50 for Heart of Thorns only to have it completely replaced two years later. That's a terrible business practice, and there isn't a single MMORPG in existence that survives under such a model. Even in the worst days of WoW's favoritism toward DKs, warriors and druids still had a place in raids.

Did they remove your ability to play Scrapper? Have you ever played an MMO before, it is not only common, it is the norm, that with each expansion, previous content is replaced and of lesser value.

If you are using WoW as your example, you couldn't have chosen poorer. I can offer massive amounts of proof that with each expansion, the previous material was trivialized.

Do you really think World of Warcraft would still have the level of permanence it did if it went up to DKs and told them to eff off and swap to demonhunter the second Legion launched? Heck no.

If you are using WoW as your example, you couldn't have chosen poorer. I can offer massive amounts of proof that with each expansion, the previous material was trivialized.

Besides, wasn't Guild Wars 2 not about invalidating old expansion content? If this kind of balance is acceptable, then we need to stop saying that Guild Wars 2 is a horizontal progression game. Core -> Scrapper -> Holosmith in PvP is in every way a form of gated vertical progression.

GW2 "wasn't" about a lot of things, yet here I am, seeing garbage mounts trashing up all of my views in every PvE zone I visit. I agree, I would love to never see older content devalued, but I have never seen an MMO not do it, so if you came to an assumption that it wouldn't happen here, I have no idea what you based your precedence on.

And if they can't handle balancing multiple elite specializations and keeping them competitive to one another, then they need to stop adding them.

I do not disagree. Now, who is the authority that gets to decide what elite spec balance is? Doesn't appear to be you. Doesn't appear to be me.

Core engi was the dominant PvE spec for the entirety of Heart of Thorns. People play what's meta. You don't see core engineers anymore because the F2P players were literally pushed away from PvP/WvW and because core engi simply isn't meta anywhere.

So core engineer should dominant GW2 until it shut down? Seems reasonable to me to allow another profession to rotate to the top for a while. Personally, I do not think you have a clue what you are talking about when it comes to engineer/scrapper/holosmith in WvW or GvG at all. Core engineer was not of any great value in WvW EVER. You are making statements about core engineer as if it was. F2P players were not pushed out of WvW. F2P players never existed in WvW in the first place.

[coglin.1496]

@"Phineas Poe.3018" said:

1. They nerfed gyro cooldowns on May 5, 2017.

No. two Gyros received a 5 second nerf in PvP ONLY. You are attempting to imply they were all nerfed and in all modes and that is dishonest.

@"coglin.1496" said:Did they remove your ability to play Scrapper? Have you ever played an MMO before, it is not only common, it is the norm, that with each expansion, previous content is replaced and of lesser value.

Coglin, are you seriously arguing that elite specializations are "content?"

yeah, I am, you see because YOU specifically claimed you bought the expansion purely for Scrapper. You made this about an entire expansion being the value of a single profession elite specialization. You took us here, not me, do not complain about it now.

More importantly, what are you talking about? When World of Warcraft comes out with a new expansion, all the previous expansions are bundled together under a single SKU with the base game. Pretty much every MMORPG does this, and Guild Wars 2 is no different. Heart of Thorns was $50 at launch, but now you can just get both Path of Fire and Heart of Thorns bundled together at $50 on their store. I imagine all future expansions will remain the same way, as it helps avoid the "map DLC" problem of making too many splits in the community, and it keeps late-adopters from feeling like they have to spend hundreds of dollars to buy a complete game -- a lesson I wish Paradox Interactive took to heart.

What does that have to do with anything? I simply stated that the content of new expansions almost always makes previous content devalued. Pick any MMO and I will show you high-end content from a previous expansion that is forgotten about and outdated. I do not know what all of this other stuff you are going on about is or how it has anything to do with the engineer as a profession. Could you try to stay on topic, please.

To address another tangential point you made here, there is definitely not an MMO on the market that sells itself on the basis of adding new builds/classes into the game and then promptly invalidates them two years later. Every class added to World of Warcraft is not only viable, but is even represented in the 2600+ bracket in 3v3s. Every new class added to Final Fantasy XIV is well-represented in raids and dungeons. And Warden has slotted perfectly fine among everyone else in Elder Scrolls Online. And yet you think it's fine that elite specializations like scrapper that you paid money to access should just be "replaced" every time a new specialization comes out?

Thanks for making my point. GW2 doesn't sell itself on that point either. I believe you either do not play FFXIV are you are being dishonest. I play and my experience as well as the forums discussion direction both suggest the opposite of what you are claiming. What does that have to do with anything anyway? I simply stated that the content of new expansions almost always makes previous content devalued. Pick any MMO and I will show you high-end content from a previous expansion that is forgotten about and outdated. I do not know what all of this other stuff you are going on about is or how it has anything to do with the engineer as a profession. Could you try to stay on topic, please.

Should holosmith just be "replaced" the second the third expansion releases? That is absolutely not the message ArenaNet conveyed to us back in 2015 when they announced Heart of Thorns. The elite specializations were intended to be side-grades that filled holes in each profession: scrapper makes engi more sustainable, while holosmith makes engi more bursty. They don't invalidate each other, and nerfs to one build should certainly not affect the other -- and yet here we are.

Almost every profession has been replaced. Yet changes now have brought scrapper back into play lately. As well you continue to make a lot of assumptions based on nothing but how you want things to be, not how they are or were declared to be intended. That is not helping your argument at all.

As I said before, if ArenaNet can't stick to their promises, then they need to reel back on this design philosophy and perhaps take some inspiration from other games in the industry. After spending the past 3-6 months playing Elder Scrolls Online, it amazes me how much better that game is at doing the thing ArenaNet is trying to do.

They will not reel back the design philosophy. They will change it entirely as they have in the past.

It is baffling to me that posters make unconstructive complaint post and expect positive results. If posters want changes, they need to detail positive changes, detail why they will help more than they will hurt, and why. Complaining about how you subjectively dislike an already made change and expecting positive results isn't going to aid your cause.

[Phineas Poe.3018]

I'll make one more reply just because you asserted that I'm being dishonest. It's probably a waste of my time, but I do feel the need to defend myself.

@coglin.1496 said:No. two Gyros received a 5 second nerf in PvP ONLY. You are attempting to imply they were all nerfed and in all modes and that is dishonest.9 months is not years. You can act like it, it doesn't make it true. But it was provably being complained about immediately. That is also provable.

To your first point, I originally said: "The real problem [with scrapper] was the sustain; it was unbelievable. Scrapper at launch could literally sustain 1v2 indefinitely (standing on the point) and reliably win 1v1s against pretty much any class in the game. That was back when Rocket Charge had three leap finishers, when Rapid Regeneration healed for significantly more health, when Adaptive Armor gave you like 100 toughness per tick, and when gyros had much lower cooldowns." There is no way you could interpret that I was talking about anything but PvP from that excerpt; my words are pretty distinct. And even if I wasn't, who cares? You're being kind of pedantic here.

To your second point on gyros, we have a wiki that catalogues all the changes made to every skill in the game, Coglin. This is easily researchable information. Bunker Down was overhauled in June 2015 like everything else was in preparation for Heart of Thorns. It didn't receive the nerf until May 2017, practically two years later.

The time between June 2015 and May 2017 is not a trivial chunk of time. They launched an expansion, ran over a half-dozen seasons of PvP, and announced their second expansion in that time span. Guild Wars 2 in 2015 and Guild Wars 2 in 2017 are very stark in their differences. May 2017 is also around the time I and many other people lost faith that core engineer would ever be viable again.

It's also, interestingly enough, when I quit this game and started playing Final Fantasy XIV. So to your point here:

@coglin.1496 said:I believe you either do not play FFXIV are you are being dishonest.

Here's some more easily researchable information to show that I am not being dishonest. World of Warcraft's and Final Fantasy XIV's raiding communities are both emphatic about logging raid clears. At their best played, classes are literally under 1K in DPS between each other.

I don't think I need to tell you that ever achieving that kind of parity in Guild Wars 2 between DPS roles is a total pipe dream.

@coglin.1496 said:I do not know what all of this other stuff you are going on about is or how it has anything to do with the engineer as a profession. Could you try to stay on topic, please.

The point is that expansion content actually, opposite to your point, increases in value. It's not like any of the content goes away. It's just easier. You might be able to go through Serpentshrine Caverns or whatever and completely one-shot everything as a level 110, but the content is still there. You're still getting literally hundreds of hours of open world quest content under a single $50 SKU, even if you skipped out on Legion. In fact, there are plenty of reasons to go back and roll through some of the old raids. That's where numerous cosmetic skins and mounts come from, and where they can only be obtained. You could literally spend months going back and hitting all those old quests now, too, with the new content scaling patch they put in.

None of that content is "invalidated."

Besides, for someone who claims to have played FFXIV, you apparently forgot that you actually play through all the old content before you get to the new content. You actually are expected to go through the entire vanilla/ARR and Heavensward questlines before you can access Stormblood, which is literally hundreds of hours of content alone.

@coglin.1496 said:I do not know what this aimless complaining is expected to obtain or accomplish. It is baffling to me that posters make unconstructive complaint post and expect positive results. If posters want changes, they need to detail positive changes, detail why they will help more than they will hurt, and why. Complaining about how you subjectively dislike an already made change and expecting positive results isn't going to aid your cause.

I spent years making suggestions and requests. I wrote guides and builds. They eventually added a blast finisher to Flame Blast, which was nice. And I'm glad they took our feedback from the beta weekend and made Hard Light Arena actually apply to allies too.

But they've really left us twisting in the wind, for the most part. So honestly, Coglin? I don't think anyone reads this.

But I wish they did.

[monotony.4931]

I'm glad to see more players feel about Core Engineer the way I do. I'm really sick of the balancing approach we have since HoT (or June 2015) that seemingly favours the new specialisations over the old and established builds (in PvP, don't really care about PvE). I'd happily start supporting GW2 again if only I could play what I was enjoying for years.

[Ghos.1326]

I agree that a few scrapper traits need to be reworked. However, I theory crafted a build that is actually quite tanky, and it works real well. It's made for one role though, and one role only, and that's pure bunker/condi clear support, as well as healing. So in other words, pure support. Scrapper really is a tank role, just have to find the right build to do it.

[Phineas Poe.3018]

@"Ghos.1326" said:I agree that a few scrapper traits need to be reworked. However, I theory crafted a build that is actually quite tanky, and it works real well. It's made for one role though, and one role only, and that's pure bunker/condi clear support, as well as healing. So in other words, pure support. Scrapper really is a tank role, just have to find the right build to do it.

I've only messed around in unranked with it, but this is my current set up and so far it's working "fine." GW2Skills hasn't updated yet, so I'll write it by hand:

Inventions: mid-top-top/211Alchemy: mid-mid-bot/223 (I'd run Purity of Purpose if no opposing necro, though)Scrapper: mid-top-mid/212

Heal: Healing Turret/Medic Gyro (Both are good)Utilities: Blast Gyro, Thumper Turret, Bulwark GyroElite: Supply Crate/Mortar Kit

Sigils: Purging, Revocation (or weapon swap variants with Mortar Kit)Rune: HeraldAmulet: Mender/Avatar (Not sure on this yet)

Build highlights/explanations:

• 5 condition cleanses on Healing Turret (1 from Herald rune, 1 from Cleansing Synergy, 1 from from ACP+RE, 2 from overcharge). Pick it up over blowing up to maximize HPS and cleanses per minute. Medic Gyro is also good, but you're missing out on access to vigor
• Sneak Gyro resurrects are impossible with the amount of burst in this meta, and F-Gyro is bugged right now anyway, so I'm sometimes running Mortar Kit. This is also a good thing because without it I have no access to weapon swap sigils.
• Thumper Turret overcharge plus Blast Gyro is a good decap combination. I'm not yet fully convinced whether keeping it out is better than blowing it up.
• Pretty solid side-point fighter, but I am playing in unranked games so it's hard to tell. I'll probably start doing ranked this weekend.
• Supply Crate can be taken for the nesting potential of Experimental Turrets and its synergy with Iron Blooded, but the toolbelt is also very good and helps off-set the loss of Bunker Down somewhat

[MicROpart.7905]

@Aetatis.5418 said:

@Ardid.7203 said:What's the point of superspeed anyway? Does it have a real use?

troll? did you do pvp or wvw at some point ingame? superspeed is a very strong tool !

I mean the superspeed on the gyro...

[MicROpart.7905]

@Ghos.1326 said:I agree that a few scrapper traits need to be reworked. However, I theory crafted a build that is actually quite tanky, and it works real well. It's made for one role though, and one role only, and that's pure bunker/condi clear support, as well as healing. So in other words, pure support. Scrapper really is a tank role, just have to find the right build to do it.

the core engi change that make engi become heal support not the scrapper, i can still do bunker heal support but I swap scrapper for holosmith, holo also can pulse area protection

[MicROpart.7905]

@Phineas Poe.3018 said:

@"Ghos.1326" said:I agree that a few scrapper traits need to be reworked. However, I theory crafted a build that is actually quite tanky, and it works real well. It's made for one role though, and one role only, and that's pure bunker/condi clear support, as well as healing. So in other words, pure support. Scrapper really is a tank role, just have to find the right build to do it.

I've only messed around in unranked with it, but this is my current set up and so far it's working "fine." GW2Skills hasn't updated yet, so I'll write it by hand:

Inventions: mid-top-top/211Alchemy: mid-mid-bot/223 (I'd run Purity of Purpose if no opposing necro, though)Scrapper: mid-top-mid/212

Heal: Healing Turret/Medic Gyro (Both are good)Utilities: Blast Gyro, Thumper Turret, Bulwark GyroElite: Supply Crate/Mortar Kit

Sigils: Purging, Revocation (or weapon swap variants with Mortar Kit)Rune: HeraldAmulet: Mender/Avatar (Not sure on this yet)

Build highlights/explanations:

• 5 condition cleanses on Healing Turret (1 from Herald rune, 1 from Cleansing Synergy, 1 from from ACP+RE, 2 from overcharge). Pick it up over blowing up to maximize HPS and cleanses per minute. Medic Gyro is also good, but you're missing out on access to vigor
• Sneak Gyro resurrects are impossible with the amount of burst in this meta, and F-Gyro is bugged right now anyway, so I'm sometimes running Mortar Kit. This is also a good thing because without it I have no access to weapon swap sigils.
• Thumper Turret overcharge plus Blast Gyro is a good decap combination. I'm not yet fully convinced whether keeping it out is better than blowing it up.
• Pretty solid side-point fighter, but I am playing in unranked games so it's hard to tell. I'll probably start doing ranked this weekend.
• Supply Crate can be taken for the nesting potential of Experimental Turrets and its synergy with Iron Blooded, but the toolbelt is also very good and helps off-set the loss of Bunker Down somewhat

im not talking about the core engi change, the core engi is really2 good so i dont mind it, but for the scrapper change theres not much different there, all these days engi player ask to fully rework scrapper and gyro mechanic, and they just add barrier to some traits, and theres still more useless traits there in scrapper