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Pay to win element in expansions.


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My primary concern is surrounding my main character. The guardian. I picked Guardian to play like the description in character creation. Now, since the introduction of firebrand and dragonhunter I get kicked from fractals for not running those. I find this counterproductive to the whole objective of GW2 which is to eliminate the RPG trinity of DPS-Healer-Tank.

Onto my point here in the title. I am being gated from content simply because i want to play a certain way. I'd like to join a fractal guild but even that is gated because as i start playing they harass me to get dragon hunter. IDK if its just i keep finding AH** but i'd rather have 10x better survivability taking honor INSTEAD of dragonhunter and doing only 10k more dps.

It's as if you need to buy the expansion to fully participate in even base game content. My Idea is a Guardian Elite Specialization where you are just as important but used symbols and shouts instead of traps and burst or tomes and burn.

If you dont mind a Hammer Guardian i'd like to join a fractal guild. I'm having no luck in Map chat.

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By this logic every expansion in every game ever, including singleplayer games is pay to win.

You could just buy them you know. Both expansions are well worth it for the hundreds or thousands of hours you can get out of them. If you dont want to, well there you go. You wont get invited to fractal guilds that want expansion classes.

Its kind of weird to imagine someone buying a game like WoW today, looking at the expansions and going "omg this is so much pay to win, why dont anyone want to run max level raids with me!?!?!"

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I really don't recommend playing with anyone but guildmates, as it solves most f the problems people encounter in PvE. Most guilds will take you into any dungeon or fractal on any class or build (possibly with some gentle suggestions), and sometimes even raids. The whole "efficiency" thing is mostly a relic of PUG play that is just very noticeable because its public, people who play in other ways keep it private between friends.

Also another tip, don't join "fractal" or "raid" guilds, you're just going from an elite party of five to an elite party of five hundred.

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@"Fallingfloor.4709" said:My primary concern is surrounding my main character. The guardian. I picked Guardian to play like the description in character creation. Now, since the introduction of firebrand and dragonhunter I get kicked from fractals for not running those. I find this counterproductive to the whole objective of GW2 which is to eliminate the RPG trinity of DPS-Healer-Tank.

Onto my point here in the title. I am being gated from content simply because i want to play a certain way. I'd like to join a fractal guild but even that is gated because as i start playing they harass me to get dragon hunter. IDK if its just i keep finding AH** but i'd rather have 10x better survivability taking honor INSTEAD of dragonhunter and doing only 10k more dps.

It's as if you need to buy the expansion to fully participate in even base game content. My Idea is a Guardian Elite Specialization where you are just as important but used symbols and shouts instead of traps and burst or tomes and burn.

If you dont mind a Hammer Guardian i'd like to join a fractal guild. I'm having no luck in Map chat.

Sorry but that "instead of only 10k more dps" made me spit out my tea! I would love to have 10k more dps.

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@Fallingfloor.4709 said:I am being gated from content simply because i want to play a certain way. I'd like to join a fractal guild but even that is gated because as i start playing they harass me to get dragon hunter.If you dont mind a Hammer Guardian i'd like to join a fractal guild. I'm having no luck in Map chat.

No, you are NOT gated from fractal content.You may access fractals. You may start a group in LFG and specify, if you wish, that everyone else must be vanilla too.

And incidentally, even if only having vanilla prevented you from accessing the fractal portal, it still wouldn't qualify as 'pay to win'Pay to win means the company selling something that increases the power of your character, which cannot also be acquired in game. Fractals provide no stat bonus or armor type that can't be acquired ingame by other means.

Tired of seeing that accusation thrown around when people actually mean they're missing out on some convenience.

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As long as there have been MMOs, there has been elitists who will kick people for their gear, build, or perceived inadequacy. This is no different. Unfortunately, there is not a "solution" that will make everyone happy. The only advice I have is to play the best you can, with the gear you can get, and play with guildies or start your own group. Good luck to you!

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I agree with everyone else: the elite specilisations didn't cause this elitism, it's simply the most recent thing the elitists have decided to ask for. They've been around since GW2 was released, and probably long before that - doing the exact same thing in other games.

The best solution is to find or create groups that suit your requirements. If you want to play Fractals (or whatever else) with a core build then tell people that when looking for guilds to join and make sure they're ok with it. If you want to run with a PUG then make your own LFG listing and put your requirements in there (or say something like "everyone welcome" if you don't have any requirements). Maybe something like "I'm using core Guardian - bring what you want". If anyone joins and then complains you shouldn't be using that build you're well within your rights to kick them.

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Expansions are not pay to win, those are pay to play element, just as with the base game.

If you want to play those elite specs, you have to pay for it. If you want to play with pug that only wants elite spec classes in their team, you have to pay for it. It's just that easy, you are not really gated by the game but by some of the players only and most likely yourself for not wanting to play the spec that the team you joined wants you to.

TL;DRIt's pay to play not pay to win.You have to adjust if you join someone else' team and you can demand the same if other people join yours.

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By this definition playing a necro or a ranger made the core game pay to win because they were often kicked out of parties for years before HoT. This is simply the wrong definition of pay to win. There's always going to be more or less effective builds. And there's always an option to start your own LFG and say all welcome, which works just fine.

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"Pay2win elements in expansions" in fact should be translated to "Annoying elitist players" for this post to make any sense. The expansions that you may buy if you want to are totally NOT the reason for the problem, and anyone with a little knowledge about online games and their monetization will be able to tell you that you will be hard pressed to find any game with an item shop which is further away from pay2win than GW2.

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So you played with a bad/elitist pug -> Get kick -> suddenly call this game p2w? Okay.

Base guardian actually have a pretty decent damage build with somewhat benefits of be able to instantly activate virtues and better maintain of Retaliation boon.

I got pug in t4 that play support base guardian too and he's support our party well.

Use the LFG . Find a party with no requirement or create your own lfg. Do your best. You will run into those elitists every now and then. It's normal.

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@artemis.6781 said:

@"Fallingfloor.4709" said:My primary concern is surrounding my main character. The guardian. I picked Guardian to play like the description in character creation. Now, since the introduction of firebrand and dragonhunter I get kicked from fractals for not running those. I find this counterproductive to the whole objective of GW2 which is to eliminate the RPG trinity of DPS-Healer-Tank.

Onto my point here in the title. I am being gated from content simply because i want to play a certain way. I'd like to join a fractal guild but even that is gated because as i start playing they harass me to get dragon hunter. IDK if its just i keep finding A
H**
but i'd rather have 10x better survivability taking honor INSTEAD of dragonhunter and doing only 10k more dps.

It's as if you need to buy the expansion to fully participate in even base game content. My Idea is a Guardian Elite Specialization where you are just as important but used symbols and shouts instead of traps and burst or tomes and burn.

If you dont mind a Hammer Guardian i'd like to join a fractal guild. I'm having no luck in Map chat.

Sorry but that "instead of only 10k more dps" made me spit out my tea! I would love to have 10k more dps.

No point in all that damage if im not alive to revive after my team gets wiped. Heck, half the time i just run around and they can rally at a checkpoint. Unless its molten furnace. you are constantly getting damage ticked so it doesnt work there. Anyway, my point is going ham on dps doesnt make the fractal go that much faster especially bosses with "phases"

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@Celsith.2753 said:

@"Fallingfloor.4709" said:I am being gated from content simply because i want to play a certain way. I'd like to join a fractal guild but even that is gated because as i start playing they harass me to get dragon hunter.If you dont mind a Hammer Guardian i'd like to join a fractal guild. I'm having no luck in Map chat.

No, you are NOT gated from fractal content.You may access fractals. You may start a group in LFG and specify, if you wish, that everyone else must be vanilla too.

And incidentally, even if only having vanilla prevented you from accessing the fractal portal, it still wouldn't qualify as 'pay to win'Pay to win means the company selling something that increases the power of your character, which cannot also be acquired in game. Fractals provide no stat bonus or armor type that can't be acquired ingame by other means.

Tired of seeing that accusation thrown around when people actually mean they're missing out on some convenience.

"Pay to win means the company selling something that increases the power of your character, which cannot also be acquired in game" That is the dragon hunter/fire brand specialization is it not?? and yes i am gated if i get kicked simply because i dont have it. there are even times where i am kicked simply because new players that join the party say things like "do you have dragon hunter?" i reply no, and they leave the party. Then i get kicked for scareing people off.

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@Vayne.8563 said:By this definition playing a necro or a ranger made the core game pay to win because they were often kicked out of parties for years before HoT. This is simply the wrong definition of pay to win. There's always going to be more or less effective builds. And there's always an option to start your own LFG and say all welcome, which works just fine.

Yes, you are right. THEN ANET REWORKED CONDITIONS TO FIX THAT.I am suggesting Anet do the same. Buff core guardian utility skills so we dont have a mono build of dragons maw, test of faith, procession of blades.

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@"Fallingfloor.4709" said:I am suggesting Anet do the same. Buff core guardian utility skills so we dont have a mono build of dragons maw, test of faith, procession of blades.

I don't have a problem with your interest in requesting buffs to the core classes. Just please don't insist that the term "pay to win" is a sufficient argument as to why ANet should do this. Explain how it's good for the community overall, for the paying community, for core-only players, and for free-to-play. Your insistence on stretching the definition of "Pay to Win" to fit your argument distracts from your goal.

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Im seeing the same redundant arguments against what i mean by "gateing". It doent have to be strictly game code like the # of ecto refinement in crafting. It can also be community.

We can all agree that there is Eliteism going on. We can also agree that there are casuals. Im looking for a casual fractal guild. I did not find one in map chat. Now i am on the forums. So far no one has helped me. The only logical conclusion is that core guardian is so bad even casuals dont want it.

Don't give me B S telling me to create a "casual" LFG because i have sat at my computer waiting for 2 hours doing that. it doesnt work. Even when a party is started casuals cant even complete chaos fractal. Everyone wipes and i gotta spend 5 minutes soloing the Gladiator or reviving. Which, BTW, enforces my preference for Honor over Dragonhunter.

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@"Fallingfloor.4709" said:"Pay to win means the company selling something that increases the power of your character, which cannot also be acquired in game" That is the dragon hunter/fire brand specialization is it not??

Nope it's not. The DH and FB specialization are acquired in game - but you have to buy the game first before you can acquire something in it. Seems logical, no?

@"Fallingfloor.4709" said:and yes i am gated if i get kicked simply because i dont have it. there are even times where i am kicked simply because new players that join the party say things like "do you have dragon hunter?" i reply no, and they leave the party. Then i get kicked for scareing people off.

This problem you encounter has nothing to do with the expansions. There was a "meta" before the expansions as well. I remember times where you were kicked for being an Ele, right when fractals came out. The reason? "Most Eles are bad and die too quickly/often". Rangers were a no-go anyway... etc. etc.

You are looking for a solution to your problem in the wrong place. As others have already stated: Start your own LFG and don't run with people who set requirements for their runs you can't fulfill. There are enough people out there who don't give a hoot what class or build you are running -> find those, make friends with them, enjoy.

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@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Fallingfloor.4709" said:I am suggesting Anet do the same. Buff core guardian utility skills so we dont have a mono build of dragons maw, test of faith, procession of blades.

I don't have a problem with your interest in requesting buffs to the core classes. Just please don't insist that the term "pay to win" is a sufficient argument as to why ANet should do this. Explain how it's good for the community overall, for the paying community, for core-only players, and for free-to-play. Your insistence on stretching the definition of "Pay to Win" to fit your argument distracts from your goal.

"Pay to win means the company selling something that increases the power of your character, which cannot also be acquired in game"I do not have access to DPS boosting utility skills like dragons maw, test of faith, procession of blades without buying the expansion.

this wouldnt even be a problem if the community wasnt so hung up on it. Im not even mad at the community. Yes, we should have optimal builds. However, Anet hasnt buffed core skills to make it where it would simply be an alternative method of damage with traps instead of symbols.

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People were excluded from instanced content due to their inefficient builds long before there were any expansions. No offense, caling people after certain holes in your body for expecting you to play something decent does not exactly make you seem like someone anyone would want to party with. I could take some time to explain to you why increasing personal survivability at a loss of damage or group support is very inefficient in group content but I rather not.

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@"Fallingfloor.4709" said:"Pay to win means the company selling something that increases the power of your character, which cannot also be acquired in game"If you want to stretch that to include the cost of expansions, then sure, you can use any explanation you like to make your point.What I'm saying is: that distracts from your argument, it undermines your rhetoric, and more importantly, it's not going to convince ANet to change how they do things.

You want to see them make changes? Then offer them a rationale that appeals to what is important to them.

I do not have access to DPS boosting utility skills like dragons maw, test of faith, procession of blades without buying the expansion.Correct. That's one of the fundamental features of the game that makes it worth purchasing for some people. Apparently you, too, think it's valuable, so ANet hopes it will encourage you to pony up US$30 retail (less when it's on sale, from their very own official retailers).

this wouldnt even be a problem if the community wasnt so hung up on it. Im not even mad at the community. Yes, we should have optimal builds. However, Anet hasnt buffed core skills to make it where it would simply be an alternative method of damage with traps instead of symbols.You want to PUG with everyone, why does it surprise you that some of the "everyone" wants to you to run some of the same builds to which they have access? Start your own LFG and point out that core builds are welcome.

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@"Fallingfloor.4709" said:Im seeing the same redundant arguments against what i mean by "gateing". It doent have to be strictly game code like the # of ecto refinement in crafting. It can also be community.

We can all agree that there is Eliteism going on. We can also agree that there are casuals. Im looking for a casual fractal guild. I did not find one in map chat. Now i am on the forums. So far no one has helped me. The only logical conclusion is that core guardian is so bad even casuals dont want it.

Don't give me B S telling me to create a "casual" LFG because i have sat at my computer waiting for 2 hours doing that. it doesnt work. Even when a party is started casuals cant even complete chaos fractal. Everyone wipes and i gotta spend 5 minutes soloing the Gladiator or reviving. Which, BTW, enforces my preference for Honor over Dragonhunter.

If you want to look for a guild, you shouldnt wait for someone seeing your post here and writing you, but instead become active yourself. This forum has a guild section. Alternatively, you might wanna take a look at reddits guild recruitment.

Your last sentence sounds like you actually have the expansion and are just unwilling to change your build. If so, have you even tried out dragonhunter yet? At least in higher fractals you almost always have a chrono and a druid for boons and heal, so taking more support on a dps-class doesnt make so much sense.

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The hell are you talking about? You're calling elite specs pay to win, which is just wrong, but all you're really talking about is how pugs kick you for playing base guardian, and being upset because you can't play the build you want to play.

  1. Make your own LFG with zero requirements or specific requests, and play base guardian to your heart's content.
  2. Don't join groups asking for meta builds. People have the right to set requirements for their own groups, just like you do (see point #1). If you get kicked from those groups for playing base guardian, don't be surprised.
  3. Elite Specs are not pay to win. There's nothing to discuss here.
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