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The state of PvP (after the 6/2/2018 balance patch)


Dostymen.1269

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Oh boy, when I saw those changes I was like "Oh yes!", then I played 3 games and I was like "Oh fuck yeah!" but then I played more games and the sweet taste of not getting fucked by a scourge + firebrand combo turned sour. Who would have thought that fixing one problem (scourge + firebrand combo) would create 3 more (that being spellbreaker, druid and mesmer).

I'll try to go through what we are looking at in this balance patch and what would I change. I'll try to tell you what builds are in the mix and what they are but remember, I play a power burst build on EU around 1600 SR so our opinions will differ.

Let's just look at the build that are being played:

Spellbreaker:This is the big winner. This build had very restricted use in PvP beacause of the scourge + firebrand combo that dominated mid, it just didn't have enough resistance to get through the cancer. Now that it is gone, this buid shines. It has big mobility, damage, damage mitigation and regenration. It has basiclly everything other than range pressure. It more or less beats every power build in the game so you need a ranged condi build to fight it and that is with scourge being less popular harder and harder to do. Kite builds won't cut it either cause there is only so much space to kite in a PvP map. This build needs to be nerfed somewhere, this should be a build that dominates WvW zerg fights with its boon removal but now it is a much better warrior with a one more block and the theme of the spec (boon removal) is just an added bonus. I would suggest giving power builds more windows to damage it because it can maintain near invuln with its full counter, 2 endure pains, shield stance, evade on greatsword and dodges between all of that for almost 15 seconds while it is dealing 4k crits to you and regenerating like crazy and shift more of the power into the boon removal.

Druid:I have only one question for you. Why is this build still around? This build is the definition of unfun. If you are having problems with falling asleep just play this build because it is designed to make you sleep. This was supposed to be a support build, like firebrand, but in reality it is a nasty bunker build that is hard to even 2v1 (it is literally un1v1able). It just sits on a node defending it and hoping to draw at least 3 people in and hold them as long as it can. If you are 2v1ing it you are basiclly losing at other nodes. This needs to be gone, there is no fun at hitting it with your perfect combo, getting it to 25% health and just watch it press F5 and heal to full and god forbid you have no sustain casue it will actually kill you. Not mentioning you need only to target and press F1 to kill some builds (yeah, talking about you smokescale).

Mesmer:This is a tough one. The changes to phantasms were massive so there isn't a "meta" build as of yet. But there are 3 floating around.Ineptitude: Condi kite build, annoying but effective in the hands of a good player. Don't see any problems with it just because it isn't widely used.Werid boon spam well chrono: Powerful mid build that can survive anything while buffing all of your teammates. It gets shut down by spellbreaker tho so I don't see it being that good.Power shatter: This is the scariest one. There was a problem with this in the past but it always phased out and it seems it is comming back. The worst thing that can happen to you is getting a 20k burst out of nowhere and that is what this build usualy does. With the phantasms doing a shitton of burst damage now we really need a bigger reaction time window for the phantasm burst or the shatter.

Scourge:The literal scourge of solo queue. This build dominated PvP since the PoF launch but the devs have finaly managed to balance it. I really think that scourge is in a good place right now (still a very powerful and potent build), the visual effects might ruin the zerg or mid fight experience but now you actually know when to dodge when fighting a scourge (you couldn't see shit in the mid fight anyway). Although I would say scourge is in a bad place design-wise. I always thought it was supposed to be a condi support spec (devs have said it themselves) but it always felt like it was a dps spec and the barrier was something on top, a bonus (just like with spellbreaker). I would balance it by shifting its condi capabilities into more barrier application and boon corrupt but the changes the devs made will do.

Firebrand:This is the build that made scourge that much powerful and I have to give it to Anet, this was exactly what they said it will be, although enormously overtuned. And they finally brought it down to a good level. Don't get me wrong, the build is still very good it is just not broken. Props to you Anet.

Holosmith:The best elite spec they have ever done. Period. And it is well balanced too. You could argue that minesweeper was too strong but that was nerfed and it was a minesweeper problem not a holosmith problem. The spec is so much fun to play and play against.

D/P (S/P) thief:Nothing new here. The kite potential in PvP maps makes it fairly balanced.

Hammer guard:Ugh...so boring, but it will get you places so I guess. It is an eazy build to pick up. Nothing special. Outclassed by spellbraker.

Meditrapper DH:I mean, it was around for a long time, it is good but outclassed by spellbreaker.

Scrapper:I see it pop up from time to time after the buff so I guess it is on a slow return. I don't mind having scrapper in the meta, it is an eazy build to play and it doesn't really have anything bullshit in its kit. But it will probably get shut down by spellbreaker 1v1.

Power reaper:I wish this was the spellbreaker of today's meta. I mean, the build deserves it. It was played condi for 2 years thanks to Anet and when it is finally back to power it gets outclassed by spellbreaker in every single way. Quite sad, really, because it is so much fun to play.

Berserker:We had 2 years of this shit. Please don't ever come back with your skull grinder bullshit.

Revenant:Core/Herald: You see those pop up in one or two games but the problem is that rev is just meh. It dies too quickly on mid and it can't beat druid and spellbreaker on close/far. It needs a small buff because it is extremely potent if you know what the fuck you are doing.Renegade: Oh man, this whole spec is just underpowered...and it is a shame too, the whole theme of the spec is so cool. This needs a heavy buff, the one in the patch wasn't enough.

Soulbeast:I see some of them here and there and although it is a cool playstyle and it requires a lot of though (not the longbow sniper tho), it is basiclly a burstable druid. It is played by people that are too tired of playing druid. I would love to see some more of this spec but druid is just better.

Deadeye:A rare sight this one BUT not because it is bad....no, no. Rifle is really hard to use, it is a different playstyle to thief and a lot of people can't get used to it. But if you do, oh man...the things you can do. The build is really fun, does insane damage and is really fun to watch. I recommend this fully.

Weaver:The elementalist class itself is in a bad spot and that transcends to weaver. It is just subpar and the lack of ANY elite skill isn't helping. Playing the sustain version or the fresh air version won't really make a difference. It needs some buffs for sure.

Tempest:Outclassed by firebrand, nothing more to say. We got enough of that build in HoT so let's enjoy it's departure.

That is for the classes, I'll point out some of problems in PvP just for a bonus:

AFKers:This happend to me so many times...lose the first mid fight -> AFK, don't wanna swap to firebrand -> AFK. It is so frustrating and it feels that people are just not being punished for it. I feel that it is becomming more and more of a problem.

RNG pet hard CC:Cmon Anet, that should be on the F2, this is so bad to play and play against and it can usualy just decide the fight. Hard CC is a serious playmaking thing, it shouldn't be decided by RNG.Just move everything to the F2 and we'll be alright.

So this is it, now go and discus in the comments, I will be happy to see your thought.I surely made some mistakes and forgot something so I apologize about that but I tried to make it not too long so anyone could read it.So have fun a see you in the comments.

Dosty

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@Dostymen.1269 said:Who would have thought that fixing one problem (scourge + firebrand combo) would create 3 more (that being spellbreaker, druid and mesmer).Anyone with critical thinking skills.

Balance is a mess because of poor elite spec design and the arms race mentality used to address it. Look at PvP balance as an onion: peel back one layer and it still stinks. The scourge nerf made PvP at least bearable to play.

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Eh, I don't think spellbreaker is so op. It's tank and has good damage and cc, but unlike old scourge, you can play around it. It's attack pattern is very binary and predictable, all they can do is basically charge straight at you with a telegraphed cc skill and try to burst you while you're stunned. Almost everything can play around it with good timing. It's strong, but nothing like what scourge was.

Druid is cancer incarnate, why does this exist.

Power mesmer is probably overtuned but that's because once again a mesmer build has insane burst combined with the same overload of defenses every mesmer build has. Still not as bad as condi mirage or scourge was.

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Eh, the meta is pretty decent right now. I’ll take druids and Spellbreakers over Scourge any day. At least you can see their animations and dodge them as opposed to Scourge who just passively paint half the map in condis.

My only complaint is that there’s too much invuln. Signet of Stone needs a duration lowered. Y a couple sec, and some traits like the ones that trigger Endure Pain/Elixir S need to have some ICD that prevent them from being chained with the actual utility skill.

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Don't mind spellbreakers...

Mirage is a cancer and one more slip in the huge pile of evidence of ANet's terrible ability to balance. Mes has unreasonably high uptime on invulns, has evades that do not require giving up any pressure, has no real break in its ability to burst, and has instant cc to fill in the gaps of invulns. On top of this, stupid amounts of mobility, portal, and downed pressure that is higher than most build's alive pressure.

Druid is a huge mistake in that they just mindlessly spam sustain while pets whittle you down. They are literally like old spirit ranger or cele ele back in the day.

In a week, it will be just all mirages and druids, with some random spellbreakers, scourges, firebrands, and holos sprinkled in, and we will truly have balance between PvE and PvP. Druids and Mesmers dominate PvE raids (required in all) and pvp now too!! I want whoever balances these two classes to work on eles pls.

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Welcome to "saw that a mile away" town?The problem is, Scourge was domineering, but it was also the "super-predator" keeping all the other op builds in check.Now they killed the super-predators, the rabbits are growing rampant.

You're right when you say that scourge's issue was a mechanical issue. Which they fixed by not changing the mechanics, but the effects. Which broke the spec outside of pvp, and will just allow for the problem to resurge if they ever need to improve conditions again.

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@Exedore.6320 said:

@Dostymen.1269 said:Who would have thought that fixing one problem (scourge + firebrand combo) would create 3 more (that being spellbreaker, druid and mesmer).Anyone with critical thinking skills.

Balance is a mess because of poor elite spec design and the arms race mentality used to address it. Look at PvP balance as an onion: peel back one layer and it still stinks. The scourge nerf made PvP at least bearable to play.

It is not actually that bad, it is better than it was for a long time. Although I really don't like the spellbreakers, druids and mesmers running around even I have to say that there is a high variety of builds in the mix. We shouldn't be so harsh.

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I wish people would stop talking about "BALANCE" and start talking about the REAL problems.

1) Conquest only maps needs to change. This is bad design made even worse by random solo-queue ranked (we'll get to that soon). It makes it very hard to have a checks-and-balances system for professions where one might do well at one thing and poorly at another.

2) Solo-queue ranked mode should be eradicated. Instead, solo-queue should be a place to have fun, play quick games, enjoy off-meta builds, and still get rewarded with pips/chests. Gold/hour should be as close to what one can do in a normal hour of PvE (not hardcore farming), if even a little better. This is also where the new game modes like capture the flag and maybe a 10v10 mode with 5 nodes instead of 3, etc. GvG as well.

3) 5-man premade ONLY should replace current ranked. ATs alone aren't enough. let folks make teams and play other teams in a ranked setting. This would be incentivized with really good rewards, especially for top tier teams. This would also be where "seasons" come into play.

4) 3v3 deathmatches need to be added. It would be nice for 2v2 as well, but this game really isn't built for either so numbers would need adjusting (maybe reduce all healing by XX%).

That's where I would start.

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@"ReaverKane.7598" said:Welcome to "saw that a mile away" town?The problem is, Scourge was domineering, but it was also the "super-predator" keeping all the other op builds in check.Now they killed the super-predators, the rabbits are growing rampant.

You're right when you say that scourge's issue was a mechanical issue. Which they fixed by not changing the mechanics, but the effects. Which broke the spec outside of pvp, and will just allow for the problem to resurge if they ever need to improve conditions again.

Agree. With one correction: it was condi mesmer who kept other builds in a row. Because of good dueling capabilities and mobility using portal.Especially during HoT times. Power Chrono was unable to compete with Chronophantasma Shatter as duelist. And as teamfight dps it was also not really good choice.

But now condi mesmer is dead (both Chrono and Mirage). Roamer niche is occupied by Spellbreaker and Druid. Of course mesmers changed specialization to teamfight dps.By the way, ranged dps is heavily demanded in current meta because of Scourge and Holosmith.

Is Power Mirage overpowered now? I'm not ready to say. Despite all cries on forum there is too few time passed since Feb 6. Need at least month to stabilize meta and for people to learn to counterplay it. Than it will be possible to make some conclusions.

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@"pah.4931" said:I wish people would stop talking about "BALANCE" and start talking about the REAL problems.

1) Conquest only maps needs to change. This is bad design made even worse by random solo-queue ranked (we'll get to that soon). It makes it very hard to have a checks-and-balances system for professions where one might do well at one thing and poorly at another.

2) Solo-queue ranked mode should be eradicated. Instead, solo-queue should be a place to have fun, play quick games, enjoy off-meta builds, and still get rewarded with pips/chests. Gold/hour should be as close to what one can do in a normal hour of PvE (not hardcore farming), if even a little better. This is also where the new game modes like capture the flag and maybe a 10v10 mode with 5 nodes instead of 3, etc. GvG as well.

3) 5-man premade ONLY should replace current ranked. ATs alone aren't enough. let folks make teams and play other teams in a ranked setting. This would be incentivized with really good rewards, especially for top tier teams. This would also be where "seasons" come into play.

4) 3v3 deathmatches need to be added. It would be nice for 2v2 as well, but this game really isn't built for either so numbers would need adjusting (maybe reduce all healing by XX%).

That's where I would start.

Those are not real problems.

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@Crinn.7864 said:

@"pah.4931" said:I wish people would stop talking about "BALANCE" and start talking about the REAL problems.

1) Conquest only maps needs to change.
This is bad design made even worse by random solo-queue ranked (we'll get to that soon). It makes it very hard to have a checks-and-balances system for professions where one might do well at one thing and poorly at another.

2) Solo-queue ranked mode should be eradicated.
Instead, solo-queue should be a place to have fun, play quick games, enjoy off-meta builds, and still get rewarded with pips/chests. Gold/hour should be as close to what one can do in a normal hour of PvE (not hardcore farming), if even a little better. This is also where the new game modes like capture the flag and maybe a 10v10 mode with 5 nodes instead of 3, etc. GvG as well.

3) 5-man premade ONLY should replace current ranked.
ATs alone aren't enough. let folks make teams and play other teams in a ranked setting. This would be incentivized with really good rewards, especially for top tier teams. This would also be where "seasons" come into play.

4) 3v3 deathmatches need to be added.
It would be nice for 2v2 as well, but this game really isn't built for either so numbers would need adjusting (maybe reduce all healing by XX%).

That's where I would start.

Those are not real problems.

Lol. You're right. Those are solutions to problems. Let me try again.

1) Conquest-only maps, as a philosophy, is a problem.2) Solo-queue and any form of "ranking" that is NOT dependent on personal performance ONLY (with some damn smart maths involved) is a problem.3) No 5-man premade team ranking is a problem.4) I want deathmatch arenas. :P

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@"pah.4931" said:I wish people would stop talking about "BALANCE" and start talking about the REAL problems.

1) Conquest only maps needs to change. This is bad design made even worse by random solo-queue ranked (we'll get to that soon). It makes it very hard to have a checks-and-balances system for professions where one might do well at one thing and poorly at another.

2) Solo-queue ranked mode should be eradicated. Instead, solo-queue should be a place to have fun, play quick games, enjoy off-meta builds, and still get rewarded with pips/chests. Gold/hour should be as close to what one can do in a normal hour of PvE (not hardcore farming), if even a little better. This is also where the new game modes like capture the flag and maybe a 10v10 mode with 5 nodes instead of 3, etc. GvG as well.

3) 5-man premade ONLY should replace current ranked. ATs alone aren't enough. let folks make teams and play other teams in a ranked setting. This would be incentivized with really good rewards, especially for top tier teams. This would also be where "seasons" come into play.

4) 3v3 deathmatches need to be added. It would be nice for 2v2 as well, but this game really isn't built for either so numbers would need adjusting (maybe reduce all healing by XX%).

That's where I would start.

I only really agree with the last one and the first just follows the last one. I think that a 3v3 deathmatch is needed so badly, since people are just tired of Conquest at this point. I would probably bring at least a decent portion of people back into the game, as winning by killing other players is much more fun than winning through objectives (look at games like the new Battlefront 2, or LoL, people just don't care about objectives).The first point kinda logically follows the last point, but a 3v3 only really needs 1 or 2 maps with good design. I'm still unsure if a 3v3 arena would need any other mechanics, so bunkering wouldn't become too much of a thing there too.

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As the OP pointed out, there's a common theme that runs through the list of rarely seen builds... outclassed by Spellbreaker. A great deal of build diversity is suppressed because many physical damage builds just straight up have no chance in fight against a decent Spellbreaker. Not "will probably lose"... they literally have no hope of killing Spellbreaker 1v1 because Spellbreaker is still overtuned in it's low cooldown counter/block/immunity rotation and ability to wear an amulet with both great damage and high armor. It's current survivability against everything that isn't specifically high condi damage + boonstrip is just too high. It's fine to have good 1v1 classes, or bunker classes that can hold out 1v2 or even 1v3 for a while, but not as long as SB currently can, and not while still being able to dish out very high damage and be hyper mobile.

It's a similar issue to why Druid's sustain via stealths and regen feels like there's little counterplay, but with considerably more damage due to SB's sustain not requiring healing power, and having high enough base HP to use Demolisher's amulet, instead of Mender's or Avatar's. At least fighting a Druid, they can't contest the point while in stealth, whereas an SB still contests even while blocking or damage immune. I'm glad Anet finally got around to nerfing some of the overtuned condi builds, but SB's deserve similar treatment since those classes were the only thing holding it in check.

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@"Dostymen.1269" said:Oh boy, when I saw those changes I was like "Oh yes!", then I played 3 games and I was like "Oh kitten yeah!" but then I played more games and the sweet taste of not getting kitten by a scourge + firebrand combo turned sour. Who would have thought that fixing one problem (scourge + firebrand combo) would create 3 more (that being spellbreaker, druid and mesmer).

I'll try to go through what we are looking at in this balance patch and what would I change. I'll try to tell you what builds are in the mix and what they are but remember, I play a power burst build on EU around 1600 SR so our opinions will differ.

Let's just look at the build that are being played:

Spellbreaker:This is the big winner. This build had very restricted use in PvP beacause of the scourge + firebrand combo that dominated mid, it just didn't have enough resistance to get through the cancer. Now that it is gone, this buid shines. It has big mobility, damage, damage mitigation and regenration. It has basiclly everything other than range pressure. It more or less beats every power build in the game so you need a ranged condi build to fight it and that is with scourge being less popular harder and harder to do. Kite builds won't cut it either cause there is only so much space to kite in a PvP map. This build needs to be nerfed somewhere, this should be a build that dominates WvW zerg fights with its boon removal but now it is a much better warrior with a one more block and the theme of the spec (boon removal) is just an added bonus. I would suggest giving power builds more windows to damage it because it can maintain near invuln with its full counter, 2 endure pains, shield stance, evade on greatsword and dodges between all of that for almost 15 seconds while it is dealing 4k crits to you and regenerating like crazy and shift more of the power into the boon removal.

Druid:I have only one question for you. Why is this build still around? This build is the definition of unfun. If you are having problems with falling asleep just play this build because it is designed to make you sleep. This was supposed to be a support build, like firebrand, but in reality it is a nasty bunker build that is hard to even 2v1 (it is literally un1v1able). It just sits on a node defending it and hoping to draw at least 3 people in and hold them as long as it can. If you are 2v1ing it you are basiclly losing at other nodes. This needs to be gone, there is no fun at hitting it with your perfect combo, getting it to 25% health and just watch it press F5 and heal to full and god forbid you have no sustain casue it will actually kill you. Not mentioning you need only to target and press F1 to kill some builds (yeah, talking about you smokescale).

Mesmer:This is a tough one. The changes to phantasms were massive so there isn't a "meta" build as of yet. But there are 3 floating around.Ineptitude: Condi kite build, annoying but effective in the hands of a good player. Don't see any problems with it just because it isn't widely used.Werid boon spam well chrono: Powerful mid build that can survive anything while buffing all of your teammates. It gets shut down by spellbreaker tho so I don't see it being that good.Power shatter: This is the scariest one. There was a problem with this in the past but it always phased out and it seems it is comming back. The worst thing that can happen to you is getting a 20k burst out of nowhere and that is what this build usualy does. With the phantasms doing a shitton of burst damage now we really need a bigger reaction time window for the phantasm burst or the shatter.

Scourge:The literal scourge of solo queue. This build dominated PvP since the PoF launch but the devs have finaly managed to balance it. I really think that scourge is in a good place right now (still a very powerful and potent build), the visual effects might ruin the zerg or mid fight experience but now you actually know when to dodge when fighting a scourge (you couldn't see kitten in the mid fight anyway). Although I would say scourge is in a bad place design-wise. I always thought it was supposed to be a condi support spec (devs have said it themselves) but it always felt like it was a dps spec and the barrier was something on top, a bonus (just like with spellbreaker). I would balance it by shifting its condi capabilities into more barrier application and boon corrupt but the changes the devs made will do.

Firebrand:This is the build that made scourge that much powerful and I have to give it to Anet, this was exactly what they said it will be, although enormously overtuned. And they finally brought it down to a good level. Don't get me wrong, the build is still very good it is just not broken. Props to you Anet.

Holosmith:The best elite spec they have ever done. Period. And it is well balanced too. You could argue that minesweeper was too strong but that was nerfed and it was a minesweeper problem not a holosmith problem. The spec is so much fun to play and play against.

D/P (S/P) thief:Nothing new here. The kite potential in PvP maps makes it fairly balanced.

Hammer guard:Ugh...so boring, but it will get you places so I guess. It is an eazy build to pick up. Nothing special. Outclassed by spellbraker.

Meditrapper DH:I mean, it was around for a long time, it is good but outclassed by spellbreaker.

Scrapper:I see it pop up from time to time after the buff so I guess it is on a slow return. I don't mind having scrapper in the meta, it is an eazy build to play and it doesn't really have anything kitten in its kit. But it will probably get shut down by spellbreaker 1v1.

Power reaper:I wish this was the spellbreaker of today's meta. I mean, the build deserves it. It was played condi for 2 years thanks to Anet and when it is finally back to power it gets outclassed by spellbreaker in every single way. Quite sad, really, because it is so much fun to play.

Berserker:We had 2 years of this kitten. Please don't ever come back with your skull grinder kitten.

Revenant:Core/Herald: You see those pop up in one or two games but the problem is that rev is just meh. It dies too quickly on mid and it can't beat druid and spellbreaker on close/far. It needs a small buff because it is extremely potent if you know what the kitten you are doing.Renegade: Oh man, this whole spec is just underpowered...and it is a shame too, the whole theme of the spec is so cool. This needs a heavy buff, the one in the patch wasn't enough.

Soulbeast:I see some of them here and there and although it is a cool playstyle and it requires a lot of though (not the longbow sniper tho), it is basiclly a burstable druid. It is played by people that are too tired of playing druid. I would love to see some more of this spec but druid is just better.

Deadeye:A rare sight this one BUT not because it is bad....no, no. Rifle is really hard to use, it is a different playstyle to thief and a lot of people can't get used to it. But if you do, oh man...the things you can do. The build is really fun, does insane damage and is really fun to watch. I recommend this fully.

Weaver:The elementalist class itself is in a bad spot and that transcends to weaver. It is just subpar and the lack of ANY elite skill isn't helping. Playing the sustain version or the fresh air version won't really make a difference. It needs some buffs for sure.

Tempest:Outclassed by firebrand, nothing more to say. We got enough of that build in HoT so let's enjoy it's departure.

That is for the classes, I'll point out some of problems in PvP just for a bonus:

AFKers:This happend to me so many times...lose the first mid fight -> AFK, don't wanna swap to firebrand -> AFK. It is so frustrating and it feels that people are just not being punished for it. I feel that it is becomming more and more of a problem.

RNG pet hard CC:Cmon Anet, that should be on the F2, this is so bad to play and play against and it can usualy just decide the fight. Hard CC is a serious playmaking thing, it shouldn't be decided by RNG.Just move everything to the F2 and we'll be alright.

So this is it, now go and discus in the comments, I will be happy to see your thought.I surely made some mistakes and forgot something so I apologize about that but I tried to make it not too long so anyone could read it.So have fun a see you in the comments.

Dosty

Tl;dr nerf spellbreaker i suppose.

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@"pah.4931" said:I wish people would stop talking about "BALANCE" and start talking about the REAL problems.

1) Conquest only maps needs to change. This is bad design made even worse by random solo-queue ranked (we'll get to that soon). It makes it very hard to have a checks-and-balances system for professions where one might do well at one thing and poorly at another.

2) Solo-queue ranked mode should be eradicated. Instead, solo-queue should be a place to have fun, play quick games, enjoy off-meta builds, and still get rewarded with pips/chests. Gold/hour should be as close to what one can do in a normal hour of PvE (not hardcore farming), if even a little better. This is also where the new game modes like capture the flag and maybe a 10v10 mode with 5 nodes instead of 3, etc. GvG as well.

3) 5-man premade ONLY should replace current ranked. ATs alone aren't enough. let folks make teams and play other teams in a ranked setting. This would be incentivized with really good rewards, especially for top tier teams. This would also be where "seasons" come into play.

4) 3v3 deathmatches need to be added. It would be nice for 2v2 as well, but this game really isn't built for either so numbers would need adjusting (maybe reduce all healing by XX%).

That's where I would start.

Oh today were thinking something similar. It would be nice that they add a new game modes (death matches, 1v1, 3v3, 10v10) and could add new leaderboards too for each game mode. So there would be more options and something fun to play. And other thing what I thought is that when season starts they could add same rewards to unranked, so that people who don't care about rank and are there only for gold could go to unranked to farm gold. (however probably it's not gonna work as I imagined ?)And new maps too. Now they only focus only in Pve to make huge map, which is kinda dead after a month, but can't make a new (tiny) map for a PvP. It's kinda triggers me alot.

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@"pah.4931" said:

3) 5-man premade ONLY should replace current ranked. ATs alone aren't enough. let folks make teams and play other teams in a ranked setting. This would be incentivized with really good rewards, especially for top tier teams. This would also be where "seasons" come into play.

Just so you know, 5v5 was removed cos there weren't enough people queueing for it. So... that's not a solution to the problem. Perhaps when the balance isn't quite so god awful people will look to other ways to improve pvp - but balance is the top problem.

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@andyhens.4172 said:

@"pah.4931" said:

3) 5-man premade ONLY should replace current ranked.
ATs alone aren't enough. let folks make teams and play other teams in a ranked setting. This would be incentivized with really good rewards, especially for top tier teams. This would also be where "seasons" come into play.

Just so you know, 5v5 was removed cos there weren't enough people queueing for it. So... that's not a solution to the problem. Perhaps when the balance isn't quite so god awful people will look to other ways to improve pvp - but balance is the top problem.

I know. I've played this game since the very first beta (though with plenty of breaks in there lol). But I'm not certain it's that simple. If dedicated 5v5 was incredibly WORTH IT (read: rewarding) then maybe it would be fine and people would play it. Balance will never, ever be achieved perfectly. But a fun, good experience could be.

Also... adding more game modes would help achieve balance. This is because if each map is different then some classes are OP on some and not on others (obviously class-swapping would be disabled).

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