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[SUGGESTION] Redemption for Brahmm


Ithilwen.1529

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Brahmm has thoroughly annoyed some players with his immaturity.

As a way to potentially bring him back into the story; Why not have him publicly challenge the Commander? This is a typically Norn way of resolving "who is the alpha" type conflicts. Giving him a good kitten whupping would give the players some recompense ... and Norn that he is, Brahmm would have to respect/fall into line with the Commander who bested him.

This would be a way of re-inserting Eir's son into the storyline.

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Just make sure that the sword I use to cut him with gets accidentally poisoned and I'm game. So long as this doesn't end like it did for the viper in GoT...

Truthfully, Brahmm character shift really pissed me off, but if he does challenge us, I hope we abandon him for a bit. He needs to not only realize how much stronger the PC is, but that he's worth respecting. I say, let him try to take out Jormag, let him fail horribly, lose tons of fellow norn to the Dragon. Have it be humiliating, and shameful. Then when we speak, have our PC say something like: "You can't keep going at it without us!" And then Brahmm challenges us, and then we woop his ass. Let him disappear for a bit and then do something heroic to regain his honor. From there, I could possibly take him back into my team.

I need to both humiliate him, beat him and abandon him (temporarily) to get my satisfaction from repeatedly insulting the commander in front of his team, and pretending like he's surpassed us. Still, if he survives and joins us again, I don't mind it. So long as we've gotten our fill of "teaching" him a lesson.

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The problem with that idea is that a lot of people don't WANT him back into the storyline. They want him gone, and replaced with a character that actually does the norn justice.

If he's to be redeemed, it should be at the cost of his life. Let him face the weight of his actions. Then we can bring in someone better that can show us what norn are really about.

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@Palador.2170 said:The problem with that idea is that a lot of people don't WANT him back into the storyline. They want him gone, and replaced with a character that actually does the norn justice.

If he's to be redeemed, it should be at the cost of his life. Let him face the weight of his actions. Then we can bring in someone better that can show us what norn are really about.

Like that drunken guy.. whatshisface! Or that other guy with all the axes? Or was it guns?...I really wish we could get a competent rep of the Norn.

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@Palador.2170 said:replaced with a character that actually does the norn justice.

This. Oh so much this. I don’t mind Braham being a terrible character were it not for the fact that they “fridged” a much better Norn character, Eir, to force him down the path of being a terrible character.

@Rauderi.8706 said:

@Palador.2170 said:The problem with that idea is that a lot of people don't WANT him back into the storyline. They want him gone, and replaced with a character that actually does the norn justice.

If he's to be redeemed, it should be at the cost of his life. Let him face the weight of his actions. Then we can bring in someone better that can show us what norn are really about.

Like that drunken guy.. whatshisface! Or that other guy with all the axes? Or was it guns?...I really wish we could get a competent rep of the Norn.

There is one: the old Warmaster in the personal story if you pick the Vigil.

He’s awesome both as a representative of the Norn way and as an old Warrior who just wants a glorious death.

When he told my budding little Norn Warrior to run as he was going to face down that Risen Dragon... I was emotionally touched. Oh how I wish I could replay the Vigil chapters of the story.

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I am not sure why you wouldn't think they already have a plan for Braham. The key to good character development is through conflict, strife allows characters to grow. From here they probably already have a path for Braham to return as a stronger character or a path for him to become an antagonist. The fact that they have already been able to trigger some ire from the player base says they aren't doing to bad.

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@TheGrimm.5624 said:The fact that they have already been able to trigger some ire from the player base says they aren't doing to bad.

No. People hate Braham because he is a terrible character, not a well-written terrible person. Also the fact that they “fridged” Eir just to start him down this awful character arc doesn’t sit well with many Norn-fanatics - myself included.

A “good bad character” is one you love to hate. Braham is no such a character at all. Far from it.

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@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Palador.2170 said:replaced with a character that actually does the norn justice.

This. Oh so much this. I don’t mind Braham being a terrible character were it not for the fact that they “fridged” a much better Norn character, Eir, to force him down the path of being a terrible character.

@Palador.2170 said:The problem with that idea is that a lot of people don't WANT him back into the storyline. They want him gone, and replaced with a character that actually does the norn justice.

If he's to be redeemed, it should be at the cost of his life. Let him face the weight of his actions. Then we can bring in someone better that can show us what norn are really about.

Like that drunken guy.. whatshisface! Or that other guy with all the axes? Or was it guns?...I really wish we could get a competent rep of the Norn.

There is one: the old Warmaster in the personal story if you pick the Vigil.

He’s awesome both as a representative of the Norn way and as an old Warrior who just wants a glorious death.

When he told my budding little Norn Warrior to run as he was going to face down that Risen Dragon... I was emotionally touched. Oh how I wish I could replay the Vigil chapters of the story.

Forgal Kernsson was indeed a Norn I very much admire. The Vigil was my first character's order and I was practically in tears when we escaped Claw Island. My thinking is a public duel ( like another of the Norn personal story arc, "The Championship Fight" .)

Losing before the Norn at Hoelbrak could reasonably teach Brahmm some humility and motivate him to clean up his act. From there, ANET could pivot him to a better character.

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We both know who will win if they were to go that route, I don't even need to spoiler tag because we have way to much damn plot armor. I use to enjoy Braham. Then they brought us HoT and everything that followed. There is no more redemption for him, nor would any heroic event bring him back. The "writers" took it were they wanted and what is done is done.

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@Oglaf.1074 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:The fact that they have already been able to trigger some ire from the player base says they aren't doing to bad.

No. People hate Braham because he is a terrible character, not a well-written terrible person. Also the fact that they “fridged” Eir just to start him down this awful character arc doesn’t sit well with many Norn-fanatics - myself included.

A “good bad character” is one you love to hate. Braham is no such a character at all. Far from it.

This.

So much this.

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@"Ithilwen.1529" said:Brahmm has thoroughly annoyed some players with his immaturity.

As a way to potentially bring him back into the story; Why not have him publicly challenge the Commander? This is a typically Norn way of resolving "who is the alpha" type conflicts. Giving him a good kitten whupping would give the players some recompense ... and Norn that he is, Brahmm would have to respect/fall into line with the Commander who bested him.

This would be a way of re-inserting Eir's son into the storyline.

Seems most of you don’t understand this character, or how the back story and recent events made a shift in attitude. It’s one dimensional to look at this as “my character is the cool commander, and only my character matters, so everyone else must “fall in line” and behave how I want them to behave because it’s all about me”.

Spend some time reading the story of the character, because there is a lot more to him than a character designed to be your obedient servant in the story.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Braham

Edit- and to convey an important point...

The devs didn’t aim to create a team dynamic where we are like Darth Vader and our group is made up of obedient stormtroopers that “fall in line”. This story is more like we are Captain America, and our team is made up of unique characters that have their own background and personality. The Avengers team doesn’t always agree, or even get along, but their individuality is actually one of their greatests strengths when working together as a team. It’s about strength through diversity, not strength through assimilation.

Also, any story would be completely boring if all surrounding characters were just loyal subjects, and all of their dialogs revolved around some version of “yes my lord”.

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@"Swagger.1459" said:

Seems most of you don’t understand this character, or how the back story and recent events made a shift in attitude. It’s one dimensional to look at this as “my character is the cool commander, and only my character matters, so everyone else must “fall in line” and behave how I want them to behave because it’s all about me”.

Excelsior.

But it's that way. Also, we are not "cool" because of putting others down, we are cool by doing cool stuff together (like with Catlock and Kasmeer and Canach).I honestly do not care about what Braham's life is outside of that, he can go elsewhere when he can not respect "us". What is this? (At least Charr seem to understand the term "hierachy"). I mean, look at all the other dudes and dudettes at our command. They are seemingly fine with us, and vice-versa. Braham is strange. He is like that guy that you never want to be around you, but for some reason, you are forced to see him.

I had a workmate like that and gained some senses when this kind of person is around, so my personal aversion is fuelled by that a bit more..What do I care exactly when he drank so much that he just barks at me or behave like a child?

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@Zedek.8932 said:

@"Swagger.1459" said:

Seems most of you don’t understand this character, or how the back story and recent events made a shift in attitude. It’s one dimensional to look at this as “my character is the cool commander, and only my character matters, so everyone else must “fall in line” and behave how I want them to behave because it’s all about me”.

Excelsior.

But it's that way. Also, we are not "cool" because of putting others down, we are cool by doing cool stuff together (like with Catlock and Kasmeer and Canach).I honestly do not care about what Braham's life is outside of that, he can go elsewhere when he can not respect "us". What is this? (At least Charr seem to understand the term "hierachy"). I mean, look at all the other dudes and dudettes at our command. They are seemingly fine with us, and vice-versa. Braham is strange. He is like that guy that you never want to be around you, but for some reason, you are forced to see him.

I had a workmate like that and gained some senses when this kind of person is around, so my personal aversion is fuelled by that a bit more..What do I care exactly when he drank so much that he just barks at me or behave like a child?

I understand, but you are not looking at the bigger picture with this character.

Looking at the wiki shows Braham lost his father as a child and only found out about his mother, Eir, from that tragic event. He carried resentment toward her, but eventually grew to love her. She was then killed by a servant of Mordremoth, and his pain has driven him to hold anger and want revenge...

Braham story quote that sums up a lot... “With every moment we wait, someone else's mother dies! I won't give Jormag a few days! I won't give Jormag a few minutes!”

You, as a human, would probably experience those same emotions and start being antisocial and negative to the people around you. And I’m sure you wouldn’t take it well to being told by anyone to “get over it”, and to just “fall back in line”.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:Brahmm has thoroughly annoyed some players with his immaturity.

As a way to potentially bring him back into the story; Why not have him publicly challenge the Commander? This is a typically Norn way of resolving "who is the alpha" type conflicts. Giving him a good kitten whupping would give the players some recompense ... and Norn that he is, Brahmm would have to respect/fall into line with the Commander who bested him.

This would be a way of re-inserting Eir's son into the storyline.

Seems most of you don’t understand this character, or how the back story and recent events made a shift in attitude.

Yes we do.

Terrible, terrible writing.

I get what they are trying to do with him, but it is so hamfisted and stupid in it's execution. Especially how our PCs respond to it all.

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@Oglaf.1074 said:

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:Brahmm has thoroughly annoyed some players with his immaturity.

As a way to potentially bring him back into the story; Why not have him publicly challenge the Commander? This is a typically Norn way of resolving "who is the alpha" type conflicts. Giving him a good kitten whupping would give the players some recompense ... and Norn that he is, Brahmm would have to respect/fall into line with the Commander who bested him.

This would be a way of re-inserting Eir's son into the storyline.

Seems most of you don’t understand this character, or how the back story and recent events made a shift in attitude.

Yes we do.

Terrible, terrible writing.

Nah, you just don’t understand the character or care enough to look at the back story and connect the dots.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:Brahmm has thoroughly annoyed some players with his immaturity.

As a way to potentially bring him back into the story; Why not have him publicly challenge the Commander? This is a typically Norn way of resolving "who is the alpha" type conflicts. Giving him a good kitten whupping would give the players some recompense ... and Norn that he is, Brahmm would have to respect/fall into line with the Commander who bested him.

This would be a way of re-inserting Eir's son into the storyline.

Seems most of you don’t understand this character, or how the back story and recent events made a shift in attitude.

Yes we do.

Terrible, terrible writing.

Nah, you just don’t understand the character or care enough to look at the back story and connect the dots.

That terrible strawman is all you have to contribute with in this discussion?

Yeah, you're not worth responding to at all, then.

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@Oglaf.1074 said:

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:Brahmm has thoroughly annoyed some players with his immaturity.

As a way to potentially bring him back into the story; Why not have him publicly challenge the Commander? This is a typically Norn way of resolving "who is the alpha" type conflicts. Giving him a good kitten whupping would give the players some recompense ... and Norn that he is, Brahmm would have to respect/fall into line with the Commander who bested him.

This would be a way of re-inserting Eir's son into the storyline.

Seems most of you don’t understand this character, or how the back story and recent events made a shift in attitude.

Yes we do.

Terrible, terrible writing.

Nah, you just don’t understand the character or care enough to look at the back story and connect the dots.

That terrible strawman is all you have to contribute with in this discussion?

Yeah, you're not worth responding to at all, then.

Yeah, well I just provided 2 posts in this thread, but you just selectively quote me and accuse the devs of bad writing... And my input was a heck of a lot more than you just posted.

Try reading my posts and learning about the character before you start acting like the current Braham... Maybe you’ll learn something.

Edit- And I’ll even be helpful to you...

@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:Brahmm has thoroughly annoyed some players with his immaturity.

As a way to potentially bring him back into the story; Why not have him publicly challenge the Commander? This is a typically Norn way of resolving "who is the alpha" type conflicts. Giving him a good kitten whupping would give the players some recompense ... and Norn that he is, Brahmm would have to respect/fall into line with the Commander who bested him.

This would be a way of re-inserting Eir's son into the storyline.

Seems most of you don’t understand this character, or how the back story and recent events made a shift in attitude. It’s one dimensional to look at this as “my character is the cool commander, and only my character matters, so everyone else must “fall in line” and behave how I want them to behave because it’s all about me”.

Spend some time reading the story of the character, because there is a lot more to him than a character designed to be your obedient servant in the story.

Edit- and to convey an important point...

The devs didn’t aim to create a team dynamic where we are like Darth Vader and our group is made up of obedient stormtroopers that “fall in line”. This story is more like we are Captain America, and our team is made up of unique characters that have their own background and personality. The Avengers team doesn’t always agree, or even get along, but their individuality is actually one of their greatests strengths when working together as a team. It’s about strength through diversity, not strength through assimilation.

Also, any story would be completely boring if all surrounding characters were just loyal subjects, and all of their dialogs revolved around some version of “yes my lord”.

Seems most of you don’t understand this character, or how the back story and recent events made a shift in attitude. It’s one dimensional to look at this as “my character is the cool commander, and only my character matters, so everyone else must “fall in line” and behave how I want them to behave because it’s all about me”.

Excelsior.

But it's that way. Also, we are not "cool" because of putting others down, we are cool by doing cool stuff together (like with Catlock and Kasmeer and Canach).I honestly do not care about what Braham's life is outside of that, he can go elsewhere when he can not respect "us". What is this? (At least Charr seem to understand the term "hierachy"). I mean, look at all the other dudes and dudettes at our command. They are seemingly fine with us, and vice-versa. Braham is strange. He is like that guy that you never want to be around you, but for some reason, you are forced to see him.

I had a workmate like that and gained some senses when this kind of person is around, so my personal aversion is fuelled by that a bit more..What do I care exactly when he drank so much that he just barks at me or behave like a child?

I understand, but you are not looking at the bigger picture with this character.

Looking at the wiki shows Braham lost his father as a child and only found out about his mother, Eir, from that tragic event. He carried resentment toward her, but eventually grew to love her. She was then killed by a servant of Mordremoth, and his pain has driven him to hold anger and want revenge...

Braham story quote that sums up a lot... “With every moment we wait, someone else's mother dies! I won't give Jormag a few days! I won't give Jormag a few minutes!”

You, as a human, would probably experience those same emotions and start being antisocial and negative to the people around you. And I’m sure you wouldn’t take it well to being told by anyone to “get over it”, and to just “fall back in line”.
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@"Oglaf.1074" said:You argument still boils down to us not "understanding" the character.

Again, as I said previously, the issue is that we do.

Correct.

Nah.

Edit- and if you know and understand this character so well, why don’t you explain him and contribute to the discussion, as opposed to selectively quoting and using those shallow 1 liners you just posted?

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@"MrForz.1953" said:I don't like how he behaved since all this time, if there's even such a thing as "redemption" for him I can bet he'll behave like we should be grateful that he came to that.

If anything, the ones needing redemption from this whole fiasco is our PC for letting Braham behave the way he does.

Especially if you're playing as a fellow Norn.

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Its a bit odd for one to argue that if someone dislikes the character, considers him poorly written, that it can only mean that they dont understand him.

I understand the backstory, the supposed motivations, etc...and consider him, and the circumstances around his current state, to be poorly written.

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@Ashen.2907 said:Its a bit odd for one to argue that if someone dislikes the character, considers him poorly written, that it can only mean that they dont understand him.

I understand the backstory, the supposed motivations, etc...and consider him, and the circumstances around his current state, to be poorly written.

I do not care if anyone likes the character or considers anything poorly written.... There are a series of facts and events that have led the character to behave a certain way that players don't like, but Braham was NOT WRITTEN TO BE YOUR PERSONAL STORY SLAVE THAT MUST OBEY COMMANDS AND FALL IN LINE.. as some are assuming the role of this character should be... So I'll tell ya clearly, most of you don't understand Braham the character or the intended relationship role to our player characters.

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