PvP/WvW Skill Split Release

[protox.6085]

@Ghos.1326 said:

@protox.6085 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:

@protox.6085 said:Defy Pain: Increased the cooldown from 60 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP onlyLast Stand: Increased the cooldown from 40 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only

This will kill core warriors this is the only thing that keeps us alive now adays.

they should not be able to live forever like a bunker while also being able to deal massive, consistent damages to opponents. This change is needed.

then you havent played gw in a while... defy pain and endure pain allready got nerfed half the time balance stands got nerfed as well a core warrior can't bunker as it used too. Last stands is the last remaining stability option for core warrior. Balanced stance and dolyak signet arent worth taking. And with the amount of knock downs/stuns in the game right now you cant keep dodging every single skill forever. Also warrior as a melee class should be able to tank a little bit of the range pressure else it will be useless.

you totally missed my quote. reread please.

you are saying that they should not life forever like a bunker and also deal alot of damage. And i am basicly saying that core warrior isnt tanky anymore as it used to be. they only have alot of dmg but what can you do with dmg if you get killed by the first aoe you encounter.

[Arcem.7289]

I'm mainly going to talk about engineer here because I believe the solution for scourge, specially in terms of spvp would be rework the fact once they are traited the cover the entire point. Until that's addressed necros will continue getting the same nerfs as engis had to the point they will become living turrets.Now let me give my opinion about the engi changes.

1 - Crystal Configuration: Eclipse: The stability portion of this trait will now be applied only upon successful hits of Corona BurstLosing the stability is probably the biggest nerf in that list, I know it's not totally removed but currently as an engi you have to choose if you will use the skill to do damage or waste it while hitting no one to be able to finally get to your target as you're a melee class pretty much (we haven't had long range grenades in a while and everything else is not even close to it in our arsenal).The very fact you had to choose between wasting it for a little stab or use it for damage means you always have to consider trade-offs with engineer, think of rifle #4 for example, you can cc someone while cc'ing yourself, engi has always been about trade-offs based on the current situation of the fight, last time I remember us having an easy time we could still use kits while in elixir S form aka it was like endure pain or signet of stone.

2 - The damage nerfs on holo form.I can understand when building engi as a glass canon and stacking might you can do some mean damage, even on auto attack but we also have to consider a couple things.Holo is probably the closest class right now to a real glass canon, it combines lack of sustain with high damage and finally mechanics which punish said player if he doesn't manage his abilities and timing well.(Imagine if on mesmer you could lose 8k hp just by screwing up a shatter) Holo you can do that if you stay one second more while trying to maximize your time in photon forge while also having to watch out the rest of the fight aka enemy animations, condis on you, your other cooldowns, etc.

With the changes in alchemy line they aren't even close in terms of sustain to even current scrapper and our current scrapper is not even close to the bruiser monster it was once in it's infancy.One more thing I noticed is that some of the damage modifiers had quite big chunks removed which reminds me of mortar kit once it had it's overhaul. Now I'm seeing mortar possibly being buffed again while the main focus on that skill haven't been addressed yet (It's very slow, if you guys speed that projectile a bit maybe you wouldn't even need to buff it's damage to begin with).

3 - Corona Burst: Reduced the Might stacks granted per pulse from 2 to 1 in PvP and WvWThis change is understandable since you could get 25 might easily in photon forge but at the same time, engis always had it easy with might building, remember HGH cele engi? Not that we can go around playing with elixirs like before since we lost formula 409 aka alchemical tinctures.I would still increase the duration a bit while keeping the lower might stacks since that would allow engis who build on boon duration at the cost of let's say crit dmg to continue building might although said might will be stripped fast specially on wvw anyways.

4 - Overall mortar buffs.I think you guys should get these buffs in pve land as well, core engi had quite the dps reduction in raids, etc while being the hardest thing to play in there, by far it's the most insane rotation this game ever had and their dps is bad. I'm not really that good at pve but I honestly think you guys should throw them a bone and help these people out before they all are playing weaver or something else.

5 - Aim Assisted Rocket: Reduced the power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.5 (-50%) in PvP and WvWI honestly can't imagine any engineer using any trait line other than alchemy and inventions even when building on marauder / berserker on wvw.Let me explain why. We lost a lot of condi removal and sustain. Going explosives is like playing thief without evades and this trait was quite bad even back then.It's basically a slightly stronger air sigil on a longer cd.

6 - Minesweeper: Reduced the power coefficient of each mine from 1.0 to 0.67 (-33%) in PvP and WvWPretty sure this one was the one giving a lot of headache at people fighting holos, specially in spvp. Never really used it but according to some friends it indeed was a pain to anyone fighting on melee against them but at same time.It's not like engineers have infinite endurance this is just like bomb dodges and honestly I don't like any of these traits it's just a modified version of an already flavorless trait which by the way has given engis more trouble than helped specially when you're on stealth.

7 - Vent Exhaust: Reduced the power coefficient from 1.1 to 0.75 (-32%) in PvP and WvWIt's literally evasive powder keg 2.0 with a little spice on it. Another trait that could honestly get something nicer in there instead which is why I always take Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit or Photonic Blasting Module which IMO is probably the most interesting trait in holo since it turns a con from the big list of trade-ins into something nice while at same time keeping you locked out of photon forge while it cools down so again, more trade-ins but at least this one is interesting.

8 - Protection Injection: Increased the cooldown from 10 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP onlyI haven't done spvp in quite a while but does nerfing something by 100% for a second time really makes any difference? May as well rework this trait into something interesting (formula 409 2.0 would be lovely but I'm probably asking too much here)

9 - Self-Regulating Defenses: Increased the cooldown from 75 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP onlyI'm fine with that and you guys should move it to wvw too but I would also love to have endure pain and signet of stone get the same treatment (in wvw) because boy we have a lot of double endure pain yolo spellbreakers out there, etc.

10 - Reactive Lenses: Increased the cooldown from 40 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP onlyBoy that's quite the nerf on a little stunbreaker (albeit passive one) Is this still that problematic on spvp? Are the tools line even that useful in comparison with going alchemy inventions holo if your objective is to survive while doing damage on a little circle? As I said I'm not really into spvp but I can't see this being more useful than these other lines if your objective is to win fights and not die to collateral damage done by some random necro spaming condis around while you have zero cleanses.

Also sorry for any english typos and I believe I'm beating a dead horse here, a lot of you guys already talked about all these things and explained why some of these changes are good / bad in ways much better than I could have.I also think this is the first time Anet asked we about this sort of stuff I'm kinda happy actually and it's probably the first time I'm posting in a balance / nerf / buff / whatever thread. I would love to see this sort of stuff again. Also possibly an explanation why some of the final changes were chosen once it's all sorted out.

[ReaverKane.7598]

This split focus comes too late. If you're doing this, first revert Necro/Scourge's PVE-affecting changes from last patch.Also nothing that you do on scourge will fix the problem. There's simply nothing that you can split that won't just break necromancer and keep scourge's problem.Because scourge's problem is mechanical, and it requires a mechanical solution. I've been saying this since PoF, and the last patch clearly demonstrated it. You need to change shade's mechanics.I think the best solution would probably to switch Revenant's summon mechanics (can be targeted and disbanded) with Shades, just change the HP Bar with a break bar (like Chak Bracer, and Shatterer Pulsating Crystals), increase the duration of shades now that they can be disbanded.Because honestly anything that you stack upon Scourge to nerf a problem that is endemic to scourge mechanics will just negatively impact the rest of Necromancer and ruin it.

Also, if you're really intent on doing a proper split. Do a big as pass, and see what can be boosted in PvE that was broken for PvP/WvW balance (Herald changes come to mind).

If you're keen on actually balancing the game, stop working in a vacuum. The balance team obviously doesn't have a deep enough grasp on gameplay to be able to predict the effects of their changes. So maybe consider creating a PBE of sorts (a server/client where players can test upcoming changes in order to give proper feedback and provide metrics for devs before release), anything less than that, especially with your poor balance cadence of 1 patch every 3 months will never be enough to achieve a good balance before losing enough players.

[Wichidi.9281]

Warrior

Skills

• Full Counter: Reduced the power coefficient from 1.75 to 1.5 (-14%) in PvP and WvW
• Dagger Autoattack chain: Reduced the power coefficients from 0.55, 0.55, 0.85 to 0.4, 0.4, 0.85 (-15% overall) in PvP and WvW
• Aura Slicer: Increased cooldown from 6 seconds to 8 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Disrupting Stab: Reduced stun duration from 1.5 seconds to 1 second in PvP and WvW
• Breaching Strike: Reduced the power coefficient from 1.5 to 1.2 (-20%) in PvP and WvW
• Break Enchantments: Reduced the power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.5 (-50%). Increased the number of boons removed from 2 to 3 in PvP and WvW
• Featherfoot Grace: Increased the cooldown from 30 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Frenzy: Reduced the cooldown from 50 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW. Increased Might granted from 5 stacks to 10 stacks in PvP and WvW
• Rampage Reduced the cooldown from 180 seconds to 100 seconds in PvP and WvW. Reduced transform duration from 15 seconds to 10 seconds
  • Kick: Reduced the cooldown from 6 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Dash: Reduced the cooldown from 6 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Throw Boulder: Reduced the cooldown from 12 seconds to 8 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Seismic Leap: Reduced the cooldown from 15 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Battle Standard: Reduced the cooldown from 240 seconds to 180 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Crushing Blow: Increased the power coefficient from 1.2 to 1.5 (+25%) in PvP and WvW. Adjusted Vulnerability applied from 10 stacks for 10 seconds to 15 stacks for 6 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Tremor: Increased knockdown duration from 2 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Sword Autoattack chain: Increased the power coefficients from 0.6, 0.6, 0.6 to 0.6, 0.6, 1.0 (+22%) in PvP and WvW
• Flurry: Increased the power coefficient from 1.04 to 2.0 (+92%) in PvP and WvW
• Savage Leap: Increased the power coefficient from 0.75 to 1.0 (+33%) in PvP and WvW
• Flaming Flurry: Increased the power coefficient from 1.04 to 2.0 (+92%) in PvP and WvW
• "To the Limit!": Increased endurance granted from 50 to 100
• Blood Reckoning: Increased damage to healing conversion from 20% to 25% in PvP and WvW. Increased Adrenaline gained from 10 to 30 in PvP and WvW
• "On My Mark!:" Adjusted Vulnerability applied from 10 stacks for 10 seconds to 15 stacks for 6 seconds in PvP and WvW. Reduced ammo recharge from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW.
• "For Great Justice!": Adjusted Might granted from 6 stacks for 25 seconds to 12 stacks for 15 seconds in PvP and WvW
• "Shake It Off!:" Increased the number of conditions cleansed from 2 to 3 in PvP and WvW

Traits

• Defy Pain: Increased the cooldown from 60 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
• Last Stand: Increased the cooldown from 40 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
• Shrug it Off: Increased the cooldown from 25 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP only
• Dead or Alive: Increased the cooldown from 30 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP only

With those changes you are kind of making spellbreaker awful to play and will most likely kick them out of the meta.

You are literally nerfing every single spellbreaker skill there is. Every single skill.

i mean you dont want spellbreaker to be relevant in pvp anymore, fair enough. Are you gonna make Berserker viable again then tho?

Berserker is currently useless in pvp due to the Adrenal health gain, Headbutt etc.

Could you maybe reverse the Adrenal health gain and make Berserker skill gain 3 stacks of adrenal health again? and Increase the casttime of headbutt again?

those are 2 quick changes that would have a huge impact on war for pvp. It would simply make Berseker playable in PvP again which leads to a bigger build diversity in PvP which also is very healthy for the PvP enviroment. Pleas consider it.

If you dont want Berserker to be viable in PvP again, would you consider maybe not Overnerfing spellbreaker? some nerfs are rly justified and needed but you are simply nerfing every single spellbreaker skill....

[Qaju.2058]

Thief / deadeyeI’m a rifle/pistol pistol roaming deadeye. But not stalking perma stealth spec kind nor do I use Death’s Judgement.

In WvW, make it so that the Deadeye Rifle skill #4 Death’s Retreat removes the condition before shadowstepping away. Because currently, if you’re immobilized by say ranger root, you can’t even use #4. No shadowstepping away and no condition is being removed. You just stand there and die. Roll for Initiative and Withdrawal both first remove it before the movement occurs. Can you copy that method please?

If I’m in Kneel position on the ground and within shoooting reach of sentinel guards atop keep/tower walls, when I use Mark, the npc only gets the Mark and Malice mechanic. It doesn’t get damaged by Mug trait nor by the condis attached to my Mark. This is strange because all my bullets still will hit fine. The only exception to this is Cursed Bullet, the stealthed rifle #1 skill. It will never reach anything, its pathing follows the ground level and is not a straight projectile.

In WvW, stealth Rifle #1 Cursed Bullet should get its projectile velocity-speed increased a good deal or even match all other rifle skills.

I really appreciate this whole first pass at balancing. I would like to play for a period under this overall toning down for everyone.I’d even want it to go further. Don’t buff Heartseeker and Shadowshot coefficient, nerf larcenous strike coeff a bit. Keep the initiative changes overall. See how the metrics go for this phase and if needed then adjust buff the coefficients for the next balance.

Passive life saving traitsCan we expect the passive “Insurrance” traits to be also affected in wvw? I.e. Lesser signet of Stone to also have its durstion lessened to match the proposed 3sec Signet of Stone with 40s lowered cd. Same goes for all professions.

Resistance & ImmobilizeOn the Resistance boon corruption to Immobilize stance, I’m naturally for it to stay the way it is now.As I rely on that via Shadow Meld to Cursed Bullet to try to catch up to fleeing warriors.I mean it’s only fair if I have to stay alive kiting to wait for all their immunities, reflects and blocking capabilities to go on cool down, and I can then start to deal my own dmg, at which point they usually amd rightly so try to run away for their cooldowns.

The current dark sheep of small fightsPlease don’t ignore the current power mirage and chrono phantasm burst output and repetition capability of it when considering the evasion and mobility. Trade offs are healthy.

Renegade still looking for love in 2018Lastly, how long will players whom want to play a Bow main Renegade have to wait? They are not seen anywhere Yet they have some of the nicest animation and skill effects. I mean I was expecting a Renegade overhaul first instead of a mesmer one.

[trueanimus.4085]

@Lily.1935 said:Could you guys buff the scourge back to its previous state for pve only? I haven't been able to play it with the icd and the reduced condi cleanse because it is literally a chore to play in pve. I'd like to have fun with my main again.....

if you cant play the scourge in pve because its been nerfed too hard... and they want to nerf it in an even more dangerous setting, wvw and pvp... that should tell you something right there.

The problem remains that they do not play half of these classes to know what needs to be nerfed and what doesnt.. they take notes from all the whiners complaining that there are too many scourges and people saying they are too powerful in wvw. No... they are not. Its just the fact that a lot of people play necro.

Wait until the patch hits.. in its current state you will have all rangers and mesmers running around.. and then THEY will be the next to be nerfed... and so on.

Like any other game.. they nerf whatever is being whined about.... Necro has been nerfed 3 patches staight so far.. and now we get another slap in the face. Just once i would like to see anet devs playing the class before they start swinging the bat.

[reikken.4961]

@Labby.5840 said:Instead, significantly reducing the amount of Astral Force gained per heal and per attack would be a better way to address the issue than another cooldown increase. The rate at which Astral Force charges scales up with number of nearby allies there are to heal. A large reduction in the rate at which Astral Force charges will leave solo or small group druids with less access to Celestial Avatar skills, while druids in larger groups will charge much faster and be able to use their heals more often. Astral Force should be the main limiting factor on Celestial Avatar use, not the cooldown.

For PvP, the form itself isn't the issue so much as the traits that trigger on entering/exiting. If you nerf astral force generation, people will still use CA just as often; they will just stay in CA for a shorter time.

[MikeL.8260]

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

Mesmer

• Elusive Mind: This trait now applies 4 seconds of Exhaustion when breaking a stun
• Compounding Power: Reduced the outgoing damage buff per stack from 3% to 2% in PvP and WvW
• Phantasmal Force: Reduced the Might granted from 3 stacks to 2 stacks in PvP and WvW
• Mirror of Anguish: Increased cooldown from 60 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only

PvP:

Mesmer

Give Elusive Mind an internal cooldown (ICD) on the stun break part of the skill, 15 - 20 seconds sounds reasonable, 'cause Exhaustion completely ruins the mechanic the whole spec is based on.

Reaper

I would like to see Reaper Shroud return to it's previous state, it may have better numbers on it's skills now but it decays way too fast to be useful, even in PvE..

[Jojo.6590]

I happen to be very pleased with this coming balance patch! This will fix a whole mess of balance issues. Based on the information presented by the Devs, there was a lot of time, blood, sweat, and tears spent on this balance patch. I truly appreciate that the balance team took their time in figuring out what needed to be balanced. I would however like to see the changes coming to a lot of the traits for several classes to also be carried over into WvW and not just Spvp. In the end, the balance team has done a great job, your time spent is very much appreciated, looking forwards to this patch going live!

[Aza.2105]

@Wichidi.9281 said:With those changes you are kind of making spellbreaker awful to play and will most likely kick them out of the meta.

You are literally nerfing every single spellbreaker skill there is. Every single skill.

i mean you dont want spellbreaker to be relevant in pvp anymore, fair enough. Are you gonna make Berserker viable again then tho?

Berserker is currently useless in pvp due to the Adrenal health gain, Headbutt etc.

Could you maybe reverse the Adrenal health gain and make Berserker skill gain 3 stacks of adrenal health again? and Increase the casttime of headbutt again?

those are 2 quick changes that would have a huge impact on war for pvp. It would simply make Berseker playable in PvP again which leads to a bigger build diversity in PvP which also is very healthy for the PvP enviroment. Pleas consider it.

If you dont want Berserker to be viable in PvP again, would you consider maybe not Overnerfing spellbreaker? some nerfs are rly justified and needed but you are simply nerfing every single spellbreaker skill....

The meta will be totally different with these proposed list of changes.

[Haadi.9764]

I'd suggest making other healer classes viable again. As it is now firebrands are pushing everything else off the table. I believe if every healer class has one niche support role, it'd even out. But right now, Firebrands are dishing out better healing with better boons output while also being the tankiest.

Chronomancer: Heals but more to utility/boonshare - Good spot right nowDruid: Heals and decent damage through pets - Good spot in roaming/small scaleVentari Revernant: Heals with alacrity? - "I don't know" spotHeal Tempest: Heals with aura? CC? - okay-ish spot but pushed out by firebrands. If we go more condition hate, we lose the group aura support. Need to increase healing coefficient or reduce water field skills cooldowns.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

Hey, @Gaile Gray.6029 and @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 ~~

With the recent changes to Phantasms, can we maybe get another look at the Illusionary Reversion Trait? With AoEs and the like and phantasms not shattering, it's a lot harder to get 3 up for that trait to trigger. Can we get it set back to 2 clones needed?

[RazenRaven.6371]

I don't really sPvP so I can't really speak for that, but from a WvW perspective those druid changes... not so great. Druid is already a weak non-meta zerg healer and this is gonna off it entirely if it goes through.

[Blackjack.5621]

Warrior and Engi nerfs seem reasonable.

Scourge nerf would be ok since other classes get nerfed too, but you have to undo the delay on shade skills, cause it makes no sense that you have to spam your skills and hope to land them. You take away the fun and lower the skill ceiling, noone wants to play with inbuild lag.

Druid nerfs seem over the top, druid is already the weakest of the duelist and can only fight for survival but doesn't include the win condition of killing the opposing duelist. You can hold a point for abit (warrior, engi and mesmer will pressure you into stealth) and its ok for disengaging 1v2 but you cant force decaps nor kill or teamfight. This patch will kill druid.

Thief is the strongest class in the current state, yet you want to nerf it less than other specs, which will make thief stand out even more. It is already impossible to win a tournament without s/d thief.

Mesmer comes just right after thief in powerlevel. In its current state the damage output is over the top. You easily stack 25 might S/S staff or simply delete people with greatsword while having great mobility and THE PORTAL.For years this class has been a necessity as it is the only class with access to a portal. Fixing your teams matchups and moving the slower teamfight classes around the map is way too valuable, other teams may have to move 1 player before 2 teamfighters can move out (just calculate the road time for all 3 classes together) against a duelist that would threaten to 1v1 each of them, 3 rotations or more in 1 portal is broken. Either you have to give portal to more classes or keep mesmer at the bottom in fighting power. This would really kill the fun for those people who play without team, so I suggest make mesmers combat power rely on its utilities, so portal becomes a burden to carry or limit portal to only carry 1 additional teammate.

Firebrand is already very susceptible to burst damage since you won't get time to get your heals off, especially with double steal from thief ccing through stability. Nerfing the healoutput further will bring it to the edge of viability cause you do NOTHING but keep people alive, if you can't do that anymore you are useless. If the last viable support spec drops out of the meta this is also the death sentence of necro and revenant, as those 2 are not selfsustainable classes and kinda function as high dps meat shields.

Revenant stays the same as it is, so it may catch up to the nerfed classes and could work well as a firebrand killer.

Weaver may take the role of druid in terms of sustaining on nodes and lacks pressure just like druid. Burst weaver will always be outshined by mesmer and thief like any other roamer if you do not change the balance mentality.

(PS: fix skyhammer jump pads, 30% of the time I won't go up and just do somersaults above the pad)

[warherox.7943]

@"C Cspace Cowboy.5903" said:So first you nerf sword weavers main water heal. Now you're nerfing their passive defense skills.

Loud and clear you don't want anything but heal bots in pvp.

"Balance"

They don't want healing in PvP because they're removing magi amulet.

[Americium.7182]

Currently watching videos from NA GvG tournament and all I hear from casters is "I don't see any use of Holosmith" and "Holosmith didn't do anything". And that's on paper the best environment for Holo. But sure let's nerf him in WvW.

[Nimon.7840]

@protox.6085 said:Defy Pain: Increased the cooldown from 60 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP onlyLast Stand: Increased the cooldown from 40 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only

This will kill core warriors this is the only thing that keeps us alive now adays.

At least you can play core. Necro cant play anything else than scourge. And that wont change with this patch

[moerti.9801]

For the Scourge changes in WvW: Don´t nerf the cd on Tail of Anguish, Scourge is already super immobile. This just seems overkill to me.Overall: Immobilize shouldnt be on the corrupttable. Its just a unhealthy mechanic. (If you want to keep it, you might want to consider that stability could counter immobilize)

[Exitus.3297]

I like the general direction ANet is trying to go here,. They are obviously acknowledging their problems, for sure.

However, I'm not sure why they are arbitrarily splitting skills. Sure, it's necessary some of the time, but I feel like they are starting to go overboard. Changing the consistency of certain skills (Shadowshot is one example jumped out me with its cost increase) is definitely going to throw some people off.

They didn't really fix passive proc traits; they just made them less frequent. If their goal here was to make people feel less inclined to even take them, then maybe they succeeded.

Overall, I think ANet definitely addressed some issues here (for the most part), but I can't help but feel like they are doing less "fine tuning" and more "duct-taping and calling it fixed."

[Nimon.7840]

@aDemoNnDisguisE.8576 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@aDemoNnDisguisE.8576 said:Look anet, core necro and reaper need the ability to jump in to shroud faster.I'm with you so far...Make shroud degen faster if you must....and now I'm not.

As far as the effectiveness of shroud as a defensive is concerned, the base degeneration has a far bigger impact on potency than the cooldown does. The removal of Speed of Shadows was certainly negative for Reaper, but it was not what killed Reaper in any way. The 5% degeneration however did kill Reaper. For example under the current 5% degeneration you need over 20% life force to complete the shroud 5>4 combo, more if somebody is actually hitting you.

There is literally nothing they could give Reaper that would be worth a further increase of Shroud degeneration.

I agree with you.I don't want any more nerfs to non-scourge necro either... but anet does not like shroud period.Every nerf and buff with necro is always about shroud with them... that is all I was acknowledging.

That said I DO want the reduced CD for Shroud back because that is important for Core/Base necro and to a slightly less degree Reaper.

I am thinking about core necro as well as reaper.Core necro in particular needs to be able to jump back into shroud ASAP most of the time.And nothing on their list makes it seem like Anet "gets" that.

Instead they hit necro with a change, almost on a whim, that changes the entire play style of the class that has been played for 4+ years by increasing shroud CD.It is kitten ridiculous.

AENT! UNDO THE SHROUD CD NERF!

... and if you feel like actually helping necro start by undoing the nerfs from the last 6 balance patches caused by Scourge.Well + VP heal ICD.Lich form all skills... etc.

As far as Scourge goes... I don't care anything about that condition spam crazy spec nerf it to the ground, just leave Reaper and Core Necro alone while you do it.In fact I would be ok with it if you gave Scourge as an elite to Rev or Mez... it fits their play style better anyway IMHO.

Well. Actually, mesmer can condispam much more. But only on single target.

There is just one thing needed for necro: A rework of some core traits and traitlines.

Remove some of the shroud passive-traits. Rework them, so you actually have to do something, to get use of them.Rework some utility skills. Like well of power or the other one, that blinds people (i dont even know its name, because its so freakin bad)

Make the corruption skills like consume conditions, blood is power and so on much stronger. There is literally no class, that has to hurt itself, to do max dps for raids, while blowing some defensive cooldowns. That would open viability for pvp/wvw as well.

Give us the trait back, that reduced shroud cd. So scourge will still be in a good spot.

I highly recommend reworking deathmagic completely.Its of no use in any gamemode right now. And its only pushing afk farming necros.And i thought, thats something you dont want to see.Give rev a little bit of love. Even doe it hits pretty hard, it starts to feel rlly clunky after some time playing it.But first necro pls. There are problems with this class since 2k14 or so...

[will de grijze jager.6594]

@BeLZedaR.4790 said:S/D thief is the main thief build now and it got relatively minor changes aside from instant reflexes which just increase the skill cap, but the build was not reliant on that all that much.

Auto damage got reduced but sword 2 got increased, and RFI got a slight nerf and upper hand. That’s it for a top tier meta build.

To prove my point let’s look at thief matchups:In 1v1 thief only loses to holo, scourge and druid. It has the capability to teamfight and is the best and only real counter to firebrand. one of the best mobility in the game after d/p thief.This is prepatch. This gets better.

Post patch, druid and holo sustain gets nerfed HARD. Thief being able to pure 1v1 those might still be questionable, but they’re easy prey for its +1 capabilities which are the best in the game as of now (maybe d/p will beat it at that post patch, but will fall short on other things).Necro also gets nerfed pretty hard, so will become less prevalent and thief might not even need to worry about them much.This puts thief with positive matchups across the board, getting even better with rune of surging removed that was one of the most common ways to catch a thief with his burning hat.

Now what i think should be done is simply a damage reduction on the sword 3. It is unblockable 2 hit chain with an evade and boon rip with no cooldown (cost yes but technically spammable). This attack can hit for 1-2k + 4-6k. That’s absurd coupled with steal (which you got 2 of, but it makes acro attractive so it should stay).

Just either increase the cost, or reduce the damage of sword 3. Too strong as is. Or give it the revenant treatment and slap a cooldown on it OMEGALUL

I can't say it better myself.

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:With the nerfs to fb (assuming that's why everyone jumped to s/d) then d/d should be reverted. Flanking strike should be done blockable again, leave the AA but remove the 20% on LS. Dunno what to say about SE. It's nice but OK in some cases, especially with da line.

[Ghos.1326]

@Blackjack.5621 said:Warrior and Engi nerfs seem reasonable.Agreed

Scourge nerf would be ok since other classes get nerfed too, but you have to undo the delay on shade skills, cause it makes no sense that you have to spam your skills and hope to land them. You take away the fun and lower the skill ceiling, noone wants to play with inbuild lag.Scourge does not need to spam skills in order to be viable. A good scourge will time his fears properly and then start laying shades and shade skills on you, capitalizing on that very moment.

Druid nerfs seem over the top, druid is already the weakest of the duelist and can only fight for survival but doesn't include the win condition of killing the opposing duelist. You can hold a point for abit (warrior, engi and mesmer will pressure you into stealth) and its ok for disengaging 1v2 but you cant force decaps nor kill or teamfight. This patch will kill druid.This is not accurate. A druid can not only 1v1 to self sustain forever ( or very long periods of time) but can also kill opponents.

Firebrand is already very susceptible to burst damage since you won't get time to get your heals off, especially with double steal from thief ccing through stability. Nerfing the healoutput further will bring it to the edge of viability cause you do NOTHING but keep people alive, if you can't do that anymore you are useless. If the last viable support spec drops out of the meta this is also the death sentence of necro and revenant, as those 2 are not selfsustainable classes and kinda function as high dps meat shields.Their healing to self and team is way over the top. They are unkillable, even with 2-3 players present to damage them. This is not a good thing for pvp.

[Kraitan.8476]

Mesmer needs more gutting before it becomes fun to play against rlly

[Turk.5460]

@"Auturgist.8256" said:

2. You say you want to increase build diversity, and decrease the power of some of the more dominant builds, but I don't see a single thing here addressing the absurdity of Deadeyes' burst damage from what is essentially perma-stealth (something ArenaNet has been opposed to in principle regarding the design of the Thief since the release of the game, if I'm not mistaken). How does this happen? How do you overlook this?

I main rifle, but I don't use Death's Judgement - I don't even use kneel unless I'm fighting a tower or keep lord and there are no enemy players around. But I have to play devils advocate here...In what world is the stealth driven Death's Judgement build considered a "dominant" build? I see more Dagger/Dagger power Thieves than Death's Judgement Thieves.

[Recursivision.2367]

Speaking primarily from a WvW perspective, I think that a lot of these changes are a step in the right direction. I think the best outcome would be a slight increase to TTK in large scale fights, while reducing the benefits of stacking scourges and firebrands.

ScourgeFurther steps do need to be taken to tone down scourge. But I'm not sure that significant cooldown increases are the best option. Cooldown increases do make it easier to bait key abilities to your advantage. However, they do make the class less engaging as mentioned by others. In addition they don't do much to deal with the up front power of the specialization, which is pretty important when a good portion of fights are decided within seconds of engaging in the current meta. I feel like a a solution that meets half way between CD increase and numbers reduction would be best. However, I don't think any tweaks will reduce the dominance or benefit of stacking scourges unless barrier effectiveness and scourges 10 target cap are touched.

FirebrandYou created a support monster. The previous and suggested number changes aren't making a significant difference when the nerfs to damage and boon strip on other professions are factored in. Guardians will always have a slot in party and that's not an issue, but I feel like some numbers could be tweaked on other specs support capabilities in wvw. For example, scrapper has received some nice buffs to support via condi clear but is still outclassed by firebrand even in that regard -- a buff to toss elixir b radius and stab stacks might at least make them a decent second support. Soulbeast could also probably see some use with a couple small buffs to group utilities so that rangers don't necessarily need to be told to reroll.

RevenantCoR nerf isn't unwarranted. Could use some buffs to support capabilties (retribution?) and/or undoing of the resistance corruption change.

SpellbreakerNot sure the change to break enchantments is a positive for wvw. Winds of disenchantment is still oppressive and generally un-fun.

Also, please think long and hard before making anything 10+ enemy target cap in the future. These things end up stupidly strong and dominant in WvW while the additional targets are irrelevant in other game modes (See: WoD and Scourges)