PvP/WvW Skill Split Release

[Patrick.2987]

@Blackjack.5621 said:Scourge nerf would be ok since other classes get nerfed too, but you have to undo the delay on shade skills, cause it makes no sense that you have to spam your skills and hope to land them. You take away the fun and lower the skill ceiling, noone wants to play with inbuild lag.

Druid nerfs seem over the top, druid is already the weakest of the duelist and can only fight for survival but doesn't include the win condition of killing the opposing duelist. You can hold a point for abit (warrior, engi and mesmer will pressure you into stealth) and its ok for disengaging 1v2 but you cant force decaps nor kill or teamfight. This patch will kill druid.

Firebrand is already very susceptible to burst damage since you won't get time to get your heals off, especially with double steal from thief ccing through stability. Nerfing the healoutput further will bring it to the edge of viability cause you do NOTHING but keep people alive, if you can't do that anymore you are useless. If the last viable support spec drops out of the meta this is also the death sentence of necro and revenant, as those 2 are not selfsustainable classes and kinda function as high dps meat shields.

You are right in what you said about the other specs like thief and mesmer but this? If you consider firebrand to be too weak as a healer maybe try tempest or scrapper again and you will see the difference. If you die to fast maybe use shelter heal or renewed focus elite to stay alive. On top of this the other specs get nerfed aswell. Scourge is skillspam either way as long as it is rewarding. Druid is by far not bad and with spellbreaker nerfed aswell it should stay in a decent position considering 6 seconds lasting signet was not even in need of full 6 seconds and CA was incredibly strong in terms of heal, superspeed, stealth and condition removal.

[Anchoku.8142]

If this split is limited to numbers, why not add toughness and vitality to every profession to tone down damage?

[padreadamo.3986]

I really like some of these changes. The power-curve in PVP is so bad that it makes damage reduction skills all but useless. I'm very much looking forward to these skill-splits. The balance team should be actively seeking to de-meta the meta. It's boring playing against the same builds over and over again. This is why it's crucial to have far more balance patches than we have had in the past.

I'm sure there are many skills in PVP on ALL professions that are simply not up-to-par in that particular game-mode; same goes for WvW. The past few patches and this skill-split are a STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. Speaking purely from en Engineer point-of-view. I like these changes. However, my biggest concern is what we do with the other trait-lines to bring them up to par and how we handle bunker builds that are already extremely powerful (Ranger).

However, more needs to be done for trait-line identity. In particular, the Engineer Scrapper line is a mess but at least has a direction now.

Thanks,-Dhamir

[Aza.2105]

@Anchoku.8142 said:If this split is limited to numbers, why not add toughness and vitality to every profession to tone down damage?

Thats because toughness doesn't work. You won't notice any difference.

[SilensSicarius.8419]

This is too much to even speculate how the PvP scene might look after such a high quantity of changes. Why not make small changes more frequently? There are bound to be serious issues due to oversights when you try to do so much at once. What a shame.

[Kiritodatrth.1548]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:One additional note: The changes we're targeting here are nearly all focused on areas we could split between game modes. Please try to keep feedback focused in that area.

Things outside of basic numbers changes (changing the way a skill works) are not splittable.

Well Ben I gotta be honest, not the changes we need. Just more unbalance that is killing the game.I'm not young anymore, I'm 38 and I play mainly for fun, and mainly PVP and WVW, I have 20 years of MMO ( a little bit more but who is counting) and some hughe background in NUMBERS (I work in machine learning) - Just so you understand why the statements bellow are coming from:First of all: PASSIVES: I'm not the biggest fan of passives and I do agree with majority when stated that it hinders the mechanical player, however you are not solving passives, you are patching it giving it a longer CD, the fact is that passives proc without player effort what makes a novice player believe that this is how things work, there is no effort behind passives. THe passives will remain as they are, they still gonna proc without any effort, just now they will not proc as often (what is not good cause of the next point).Instant skills: Not have been tackle in this patch, passives prevented exactly this problem, one fresh air, or a thief, or a mesmer or... or... or... can instant kill you in a sec, and passives somehow prevented that and kept the fight rolling without the players crying of some lock down due to the amount of instant skills. (just see how many macro players we have in WvW and PvP to have an idea of how important instant skills are.

Now before all, I main a Necro (NECRO and not SCOURGE).

now lets go to professions:

War; I gotta the idea you wanna cut a little the damage output of SB, maybe to mark the class more and more like a brusier, and I'm OK with that (not that I think its needed since the passives are already gone), now: No need to increase the CD in Aura slicer, to keet the game dynamic SB in general will need the mobility and the llonger CD will not gonna help. you have already decreased the DMG what is prolly fine for the near future, otherwise you will kill the profession. (most wars are going to core).You haven't dealt with the Elite, here is trick... the problem with the elite is not the elite per se, is the fact the war can enter in the middle of a blob (invul) put the elite and get out with almost any damage. what you have to do is to prevent that, so they will have to use it in the right time without abusing it. FOr this you already have the solution EP should be the same as in PVP (2 sec 30 sec CD) 2 sec is not enought to enter without losing your life and will avoid the abuse of the elite as it is. (people will stop complaining). - taking into account that you are hurting only roamers and not the Zerg guy.. and is not that SB roaming is performing as top of the chain, core is still better.

Rev: Rev was of as a burst class (like eng is now) you started cutting equilibrium and dmg in sword 2. These features should go back to original, it's not a matter of power creep is just a burst build that is no longer burst. For Renegate, I would think in more synergy with Ventari trait line. rev is missing Synergy in PVP. For WvW hammer has to be reviewed, too ez cheese spec, too much damage for low or none effort.

Guard: Its ok as it is, no need to further decrease, however I understand you are doing that since you are decreasing damage almost across the board. Guard is balanced as spec in PVP and WvW, problem is guard Scourge and I will get there when I get to scourge. But the solution is not to nerf guard actually tempest need to learn something things from FB. Also core guard and DH are OK and viable (maybe DH decrease dmg in the traps and give back dmg in the LB to make it more dynamic).

Teef: It's one of the offenders: 23322332 and roll for iniciative... this is what you created... LS needs to be reduced in dmg, instant dmg as in HS + Steal will now be a much higher offender since you increased the dmg in HS... It is fine just changing the damage in lacerous strike reducing a little bit. and leaving all others as it is... AA is not a problem and should punish the player who is static in the AA chain (for both sword and dagger) the immob has to go tho slow 1 sec is more likely cause still enables counter play (evades). My suggestion just reduce the dmg in LS and it should be fine... all other changes are not necessary. I would increase the iniciative cost for some abilities maybe in the future, but for now, only reducing dmg in LS should be OK to move Daredevil as a viable option.

Ranger: Duid is the GOD today in PVP and in WvW as a roamer. Wanna fix it? Stone sign has to be review and not buffed (3 sec every 30 sec is a buff imo since it was used to prevent burst damage and the sign recharges faster). or you make it as EP (2 sec is enough to avoid the burst dmg in the right time, and give some super speed) and to keep with the simplicity TAKE OUT THE STEALTH IN THE END OF CA... simple the 3 sec the ranger had to heal meantime kite is gone, the target lost is also gone meaning ppl will keep focusing it. and maybe in the future cut a little bit the pets dmg, but again just removing the stealth is already a great deal. All Cds and heals can even remain the same. It will hurt where it's performing better (Roaming and PvP) and not hurt the zerg part of it.

Eng: should be a burst profession, they need the pre cast stability (with Corona Burst) to build it, the problem is that this stability stays too long, so the eng can stay there AA you forever and kite when stability is gone... therefore I thing Stability UPTIME should be decreased (not 4 sec) only the enough to burst, and then leave the change to penalize the player who decides to stay and AA allowing counter play (CC in this case) cause today even if you evade all theirs burst they still can do tons of dmg without drawbacks just AA and evading. Mines damage is ok, venting needs a small reduction in dmg. but 2 things you change already fix it.

Ele: First one in instant skills... OK passives are gone, so the patch should also review of instant skills??? WIth passives and breakstuns gone their dmg will be lock and kill... They don't need (nor want) a macro spec they want something else, and eles are offenders in macro specs (not performing as well as others macro specs). To give something fun to eles that is not an instant burst would be more interesting and sword was coming the way, but it requires time, and fixing instant skills means NO LONGER ANY ELE BUILD feasable, thats why I think you didnt do it. Now tempest should give also some stability in order to compete with FB as support. aura share vs healing is a nice match imo.

Mesmer: Is there something higher than god? Ohh yeahh... Mesmers.... And after the phantams changes now they have all builds. The problem with mesmers are: Instant skills (macro offender and easy to play with 4 times more mobility than an ele), and bunker lock, chrono phant. Mesmer is nowadays so easy to play that makes me smile... and what you are touching EM... stability and break stun in EM needs an ICD, its worse than passives. and Blocks and clones spam is way too much now that you did pahnt becoming clones... I tought the changes in chrono clone respaw in one of the patches was exactly to avoid what you created again. Instant skills have to go if you wanna remove passives. Ez fix for now ICD in EM reduce dmg in Mind wreck based on HP% of target in order to make make mesmers use their mobility to decrease target HP, and not just burst, use mobility to get out and come back to burst again... and reduce the mirror generation in order not to have a 100% evade uptime.

Necro: My main, so sad what you have created... I come to the forum almost never, but when I first saw scourge I came and I forecast exactly what is happening now. Scourge is a design flaw, and increasing the CD will only move scourge (and all potential builds of scourge) to unfeasable. This spec needs to be review as a design review. Now as ez fix just chace the shade side, DO NOT ALLOW the big shade size and the spam of f1. all cds and maybe some dmg have to go back (including the corruption) imo also the shade abilities should be cced, but you can leave to other patch. JUST CHANGE THE GM TRAIT THAT INCREASES SHADE SIZE. this will make scourge still viable but not so much as an offender... 180 radius can be ez avoided (do not allow 3 shades overlap tho 2 180 is ok for most of situations in PVP and WvW. Also this will make FB less an offender, and scourge less brain dead since you have to place shades in right places not just spam it and run with an area of ebola around your body.

Im writing this from my cel in the train, so forgive me for spelling mistakes...

My point is that the fix is closer than you think... and makes all this changes will only make the game unberable... since you already have in mind to do more frequent patchs do a small one with few features, see how it goes, than patch again in small dosis... dont go for the honey when you dont have a stair cause you gonna fall from the tree... (passives and insta skills) and small changes in overperforming abilities.

[Ghos.1326]

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:A message from the Competitive and Skills & Balance Teams:

Hi folks! The Competitive team and the Skills & Balance team have been working together closely on a future balance release that focuses almost entirely on PvP and WvW skill splits. As part of this, we wanted to switch things up and approach this release similar to how we approached the PvP sigil changes we did a while back, when we released our first draft of the proposed changes.

With this set of proposed changes, we'd like to get your thoughts and ideas on both our high level goals and how we're going about accomplishing them. You guys may bring up concerns or thoughts we didn't consider. While reviewing these changes, please consider them as a whole rather than focusing on individual classes.

We're looking forward to a productive discussion!

High Level Goals

Reduce influence of passive traits. (PvP not WvW)

• Passive skills make the game less skillful.
• The prevalence of passives is a common competitive player complaint. (PvP only)

Increase build diversity

• By decreasing the power of some of the more dominant builds, we hope to give increased viability to builds that previously were pushed out by these dominant specs. We're also increasing power levels in some targeted areas that previously were underperforming.

Reduce effectiveness of offensive instant cast skills/traits

• Instant cast spells don't give players an opportunity to respond. While we don't want to remove combos utilizing instant cast abilities, we wanted to reduce the impact they have.

General

• Rune of Surging has been removed from the PvP build panel
• Magi Amulet has been removed from the PvP build panel

Warrior

Skills

• Full Counter: Reduced the power coefficient from 1.75 to 1.5 (-14%) in PvP and WvW
• Dagger Autoattack chain: Reduced the power coefficients from 0.55, 0.55, 0.85 to 0.4, 0.4, 0.85 (-15% overall) in PvP and WvW
• Aura Slicer: Increased cooldown from 6 seconds to 8 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Disrupting Stab: Reduced stun duration from 1.5 seconds to 1 second in PvP and WvW
• Breaching Strike: Reduced the power coefficient from 1.5 to 1.2 (-20%) in PvP and WvW
• Break Enchantments: Reduced the power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.5 (-50%). Increased the number of boons removed from 2 to 3 in PvP and WvW
• Featherfoot Grace: Increased the cooldown from 30 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Frenzy: Reduced the cooldown from 50 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW. Increased Might granted from 5 stacks to 10 stacks in PvP and WvW
• Rampage Reduced the cooldown from 180 seconds to 100 seconds in PvP and WvW. Reduced transform duration from 15 seconds to 10 seconds
  • Kick: Reduced the cooldown from 6 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Dash: Reduced the cooldown from 6 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Throw Boulder: Reduced the cooldown from 12 seconds to 8 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Seismic Leap: Reduced the cooldown from 15 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Battle Standard: Reduced the cooldown from 240 seconds to 180 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Crushing Blow: Increased the power coefficient from 1.2 to 1.5 (+25%) in PvP and WvW. Adjusted Vulnerability applied from 10 stacks for 10 seconds to 15 stacks for 6 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Tremor: Increased knockdown duration from 2 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Sword Autoattack chain: Increased the power coefficients from 0.6, 0.6, 0.6 to 0.6, 0.6, 1.0 (+22%) in PvP and WvW
• Flurry: Increased the power coefficient from 1.04 to 2.0 (+92%) in PvP and WvW
• Savage Leap: Increased the power coefficient from 0.75 to 1.0 (+33%) in PvP and WvW
• Flaming Flurry: Increased the power coefficient from 1.04 to 2.0 (+92%) in PvP and WvW
• "To the Limit!": Increased endurance granted from 50 to 100
• Blood Reckoning: Increased damage to healing conversion from 20% to 25% in PvP and WvW. Increased Adrenaline gained from 10 to 30 in PvP and WvW
• "On My Mark!:" Adjusted Vulnerability applied from 10 stacks for 10 seconds to 15 stacks for 6 seconds in PvP and WvW. Reduced ammo recharge from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW.
• "For Great Justice!": Adjusted Might granted from 6 stacks for 25 seconds to 12 stacks for 15 seconds in PvP and WvW
• "Shake It Off!:" Increased the number of conditions cleansed from 2 to 3 in PvP and WvW

Traits

• Defy Pain: Increased the cooldown from 60 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
• Last Stand: Increased the cooldown from 40 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
• Shrug it Off: Increased the cooldown from 25 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP only
• Dead or Alive: Increased the cooldown from 30 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP only

Revenant

Skills

• Coalescence of Ruin: Reduced the power coefficient of the second impact from 1.75 to 1.5 (-14%) in WvW only. Reduced the power coefficient of the third impact from 2.25 to 1.75 (-22%) in WvW only.
• Razorclaw's Rage: Increased the Bleeding duration from 2 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Icerazor's Ire: Increased the Power coefficient from 3.7 to 4.6 (+24%) in PvP and WvW
• Soothing Stone: Increased the number of conditions cleansed from 3 to 5 in PvP and WvW
• Vengeful Hammers: Reduced the upkeep cost from 7 to 6 in PvP and WvW
• Forced Engagement: Reduced the energy cost from 25 to 10. Increased the cooldown from 10 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Embrace the Darkness: Increased the attribute bonus from 10% to 15% in PvP and WvW
• Banish Enchantments: Increased the number of boons removed from 2 to 3 in PvP and WvW
• Pain Absorption: Reduced the energy cost from 35 to 30 in PvP and WvW

Traits

• Eye for an Eye: Increased the cooldown from 45 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
• Versed in Stone: Increased the cooldown from 60 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
• Soothing Bastion: Increased the cooldown from 25 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP only

Guardian

Skills

• Tome of Resolve – Epilogue: Eternal Oasis: Reduced the bonus heal effectiveness from 33% to 20% in PvP and WvW
• Tome of Resolve – Chapter 2: Radiant Recovery: Reduced the healing power coefficient per condition cleansed from 0.77 to 0.5 (-35%) in PvP and WvW
• Tome of Resolve – Chapter 1: Desert Bloom: Reduced the healing power coefficient from 0.96 to 0.8 (-17%) in PvP and WvW
• Signet of Resolve: Reduced the cooldown from 35 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Leap of Faith: Increased the power coefficient from 1.1 to 1.25 (+14%) in PvP and WvW
• Signet of Mercy: Reduced the cooldown from 150 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Sword of Justice: Reduced the ammo recharge time from 25 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Bow of Truth: Reduced the ammo recharge time from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Hammer of Wisdom: Reduced the ammo recharge time from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Feel my Wrath: Reduced the cooldown from 45 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW

Traits

• Virtuous Solace: Increased the cooldown from 75 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
• Hunter's Determination: Increased the cooldown from 75 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
• Zealous Blade: Increased the bonus damage from 5% to 10% in PvP and WvW

Thief

Skills

• Dagger Autoattack chain: Reduced the power coefficients from 0.8, 0.85, 1.1 to 0.6, 0.65, 1.1 (-15% overall) in PvP and WvW
• Heartseeker: Increased the power coefficients at all thresholds by 20% in PvP and WvW. The new values are as follows.
  • Above 50%: 1.0 to 1.2
  • Below 50%: 1.5 to 1.8
  • Below 25%: 2.0 to 2.4
• Sword Autoattack chain: Reduced the power coefficients from 0.8, 0.8, 1.3 to 0.6, 0.6, 1.3 (-14% overall) in PvP and WvW
• Roll for Initiative: Increased the cooldown from 35 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Shadow Shot: Increased the initiative cost from 4 to 5 in PvP and WvW. Increased Increased the power coefficient from 1.325 to 1.8 (+36%) in PvP and WvW
• Infiltrator's Strike: Increased the power coefficient from .75 to .9 (+20%) in PvP and WvW
• Cloak and Dagger: Reduced the initiative cost from 6 to 5 in PvP and WvW
• Signet of Shadows: Reduced the cooldown from 30 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Assassin's Signet: Reduced the cooldown from 30 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Smoke Screen: Reduced the cooldown from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Dagger Storm: Reduced the cooldown from 90 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Hide in Shadows: Increased the base healing from 5240 to 6026 (+15%) in PvP and WvW
• Skelk Venom: Increased the venom heal per hit from 965 to 1206 (+25%) in PvP and WvW

Traits

• Pulmonary Impact: Reduced the power coefficient from 2.8 to 2.0 (-29%) in PvP and WvW
• Upper Hand: Increased the cooldown from 3 seconds to 5 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Panic Strike: Increased the cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW. The WvW version of this trait will now use the PvP immobilize duration of 1.5 seconds
• Instant Reflexes: Increased the cooldown from 40 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
• Pain response: Increased the cooldown from 16 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP only
• Hard to Catch: Increased the cooldown from 45 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only

Ranger

Skills

• Seed of Life: Increased the cooldown from 1 second to 3 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Rejuvenating Tides: Reduced the base healing per pulse from 650 to 550 (-15%) in PvP and WvW
• Solar Beam: Reduced the power coefficient per strike from 0.3 to 0.25 (-17%) in PvP and WvW
• Signet of Stone: Reduced the duration from 6 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP and WvW. Reduced the cooldown from 80 seconds to 40 in PvP and WvW
• Celestial Avatar: Increased the cooldown from 15 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Ricochet: Increased the power coefficient from 0.7 to 0.8 (+14%) in PvP and WvW. Increased Might duration from 5 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Winter's Bite: Increased the power coefficient from 1.25 to 1.5 (+20%) in PvP and WvW. Increased the Bleeding duration from 8 seconds to 12 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Splitblade: Increased the power coefficient per axe from 0.3 to 0.4 (+33%) in PvP and WvW
• Instinctive Engage: Increased the power coefficient from 0.6 to 1 (+67%) in PvP and WvW
• Healing Spring: Increased the number of conditions cleansed per pulse from 1 to 2 in PvP and WvW

Traits

• Stoneform: Increased the cooldown from 70 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
• Shared Anguish: Increased the cooldown from 60 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
• Protective Ward: Increased the cooldown from 18 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP only
• Refined Toxins: Increased the cooldown from 5 seconds to 15 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Rugged Growth: Reduced the healing power coefficient from 0.245 to 0.1225 (-50%) in PvP and WvW
• Grace of the Land: Reduced the number of Might stacks applied from 3 to 2 in PvP and WvW
• Fortifying Bond: Reduced duration of shared Might stacks from 10 seconds to 5 seconds in PvP and WvW
• "We Heal as One!:" Reduced duration of copied Might stacks from 10 seconds to 5 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Fresh Reinforcement: Reduced shared Might duration 10 seconds to 5 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Ambidexterity: Increased the Condition Damage granted from 150 to 240 in PvP and WvW
• Two-Handed Training: Increased the bonus damage from 5% to 10% in PvP and WvW

Engineer

Skills

• Crystal Configuration: Eclipse: The stability portion of this trait will now be applied only upon successful hits of Corona Burst
• Light Strike: Reduced the power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.6 (-40%) in PvP and WvW
• Holo Leap: Reduced the power coefficient from 1.8 to 1.5 (-17%) in PvP and WvW
• Corona Burst: Reduced the Might stacks granted per pulse from 2 to 1 in PvP and WvW
• Holographic Shockwave: Reduced the power coefficient from 0.96 to 0.75 (-22%) in PvP and WvW
• Spectrum Shield: Increased the shield duration from 3 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP and WvW. Increased the cooldown from 30 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Poison Dart Volley: Reduced the cooldown from 10 seconds to 8 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Glue Shot: Reduced the cooldown from 25 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Mortar Shot: Increased the power coefficient from 0.8 to 1.0 (+25%) in PvP and WvW
• Poison Gas Shell: Increased the power coefficient from 0.75 to 1.0 (+33%) in PvP and WvW. Reduced the cooldown from 12 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Endothermic Shell: Increased the power coefficient from 0.75 to 1.0 (+33%) in PvP and WvW. Reduced the cooldown from 20 seconds to 15 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Flash Shell: Increased the power coefficient from 0.75 to 1.0 (+33%) in PvP and WvW. Reduced the cooldown from 25 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Box of Nails: Reduced the cooldown from 10 seconds to 8 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Magnet: Reduced the cooldown from 25 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Throw Mine: Increased the damage from 1.8 to 2.0 (+11%) in PvP and WvW
• Static Shock (A.E.D.): Increased the stun duration from 1 second to 2 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Elixir X: Reduced the duration of Tornado and Rampage transforms from 15 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP and WvW. Reduced the cooldown from 105 seconds to 75 seconds in PvP and WvW

Traits

• Aim Assisted Rocket: Reduced the power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.5 (-50%) in PvP and WvW
• Minesweeper: Reduced the power coefficient of each mine from 1.0 to 0.67 (-33%) in PvP and WvW
• Vent Exhaust: Reduced the power coefficient from 1.1 to 0.75 (-32%) in PvP and WvW
• Protection Injection: Increased the cooldown from 10 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP only
• Self-Regulating Defenses: Increased the cooldown from 75 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
• Reactive Lenses: Increased the cooldown from 40 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only

Elementalist

Skills

• Glyph of Renewal: Reduced the cooldown from 165 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Stone Resonance: Increased the base Barrier granted per pulse from 972 to 1069 in PvP and WvW
• Lesser Stone Resonance: Increased the base Barrier granted per pulse from 972 to 1069 in PvP and WvW
• Shatterstone Increased the power coefficient from 1.0 to 1.66 (+66%) in PvP and WvW
• Impale: Increased the power coefficient from 0.6 to 0.77 (+28%) in PvP and WvW
• Ashen Blast: Increased the power coefficient from 0.77 to 1.1 (+43%) in PvP and WvW
• Steam Surge: Increased the power coefficient from 1.0 to 1.5 (+50%) in PvP and WvW
• Lightning Touch: Increased the power coefficient from 1.0 to 1.5 (+50%) in PvP and WvW
• Ring of Earth: Increased the number of Bleeding stacks from 1 to 3 in PvP and WvW
• Tornado: Reduced the cooldown from 150 seconds to 100 seconds in PvP and WvW. Reduced the transform duration from 15 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP and WvW.
  • Elemental Requiem: Reduced the cooldown from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Dust Charge: Reduced the cooldown from 10 seconds to 7 seconds in PvP and WvW

Traits

• Burning Fire: Increased the cooldown from 40 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP only
• Tempest Defense: Increased the cooldown from 25 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP only
• Earth's Embrace: Increased the cooldown from 75 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
• Soothing Ice: Increased the cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP only
• Final Shielding: Increased the cooldown from 60 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
• Gale Song: Increased the cooldown from 60 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
• Pyromancer's Puissance: Adjusted the Might granted from 1 stack for 15 seconds to 2 stacks for 10 seconds in PvP and WvW

Mesmer

Skills

• Illusion of Life: Reduced the cooldown from 120 seconds to 75 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Phantasmal Disenchanter – Increased the cooldown from 20 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW

Traits

• Elusive Mind: This trait now applies 4 seconds of Exhaustion when breaking a stun
• Compounding Power: Reduced the outgoing damage buff per stack from 3% to 2% in PvP and WvW
• Phantasmal Force: Reduced the Might granted from 3 stacks to 2 stacks in PvP and WvW
• Mirror of Anguish: Increased cooldown from 60 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only

  Necromancer

Skills

• Garish Pillar: Increased the cooldown from 15 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Desert Shroud: Increased the cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Ghastly Breach: Increased the cooldown from 75 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Plague Signet: Increased the cooldown from 30 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Trail of Anguish: Increased the cooldown from 25 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Signet of Undeath: Reduced the cooldown from 150 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Life Siphon: Reduced the cooldown from 12 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Dark Pact: Reduced the cooldown from 25 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Signet of Vampirism: Reduced the cooldown from 35 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW. Increased the base heal from 3960 to 4950 (+25%) in PvP and WvW
• Well of Blood: Increased the base heal from 5240 to 6026 (+15%) in PvP and WvW. Increased the heal per pulse from 280 to 490 (+75%) in PvP and WvW
• Spectral Grasp: Reduced the cooldown from 50 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Blood is Power: Adjusted the Might granted from 10 stacks for 10 seconds to 15 stacks for 6 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Well of Suffering: Reduced the cooldown from 35 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP only. Increased the amount of Vulnerability applied per pulse from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP only.
• Signet of the Locust: Increased the power coefficient from 0.65 to 1.0 (+54%) in PvP and WvW. Increased the base heal per hit from 970 to 1455 (+50%) in PvP and WvW

Traits

• Reaper's Protection: Increased the cooldown from 60 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
• Last Gasp: Increased the cooldown from 50 seconds to 75 seconds in PvP only

Do away with boon corrupt on Scepter auto attack 3rd phase, and it would be lovely.

[trixantea.1230]

As for necro traits, I'd like to see Reaper's Protection being merged with Fear of Death. The 90s CD is too high for one second fear and very few people will be using it.This will also make people consider picking up Terror in curses.

[shadowpass.4236]

Celestial Shadow

---

Explanation

Celestial Shadow is the real reason why Druids are so hard to kill. I left my suggestions on both the PvP/WvW Skill Split Release thread as well as in the ranger subforums, but Cal Cohen told me that Anet was more concerned with changing numbers than functionality. With that being said, I believe that these suggestions alone would solve a lot of the issues people have with Druid.

So, I'll start off by saying that the 3 seconds of stealth when exiting CA, coupled with Troll Unguent + base regen on the meta menders druid is 6360 uninterruptible healing.

Now, the healing isn't the issue here. Power and condi classes WILL be able to out dps that. The issue is the immediate stealth.

Suggestions

• The stealth should be removed completely from Celestial Shadow. Leave the super speed at 3 seconds but drop a Lesser Smoke Cloud (Smokescale f2) upon leaving Celestial Avatar. This allows us to stealth should we need it, but also gives enemies a chance to interrupt it.

• Overall, this change does reduce the amount of base stealth a Druid has access to. And although the lack of an immediate stealth increases the counterplay significantly (which is good), this change also adds more depth and potential for group play.

  ---

  Celestial Avatar

  ---

  Explanation

Again, my real changes to Celestial Avatar involve changing the functionality of the skills.

I'd recommend removing the healing from every skill in CA asides from Lunar Impact. With that being said, Celestial Avatar should keep its Water Field, either on 4, or through a reworking of Seed of Life.

Suggestions

Cosmic Ray

• Cosmic Ray should be turned into a stronger version of staff auto attack. Remove the healing, increase the base damage per pulse to 333, and apply slow on its 3rd pulse. This change alone would give a much higher incentive to remain in CA, in turn draining our Astral Force more should we choose to take the damage/control over healing.

Seed of Life

• Seed of Life leaving a Water Field behind would be a fantastic change. Not only would it help bring Glyphs back into the meta, but it would also help make up for the loss of healing, if the healing were to be removed from Rejuvenating Tides. This change would give us a reliable, blastable heal, which I believe would help Druid's out a LOT in WvW as well as increasing the potential for group play significantly.

• The amount of conditions cleared should be increased to 2, and the cooldown to 3 seconds as well. This would reduce the total amount of condition clears we have access to in Druid, while giving us more reliable access to it.

• Also, the Seed of Life should blossom immediately and leave the water field behind. This would give Druid's more viability in WvW when casting this skill on moving targets.

Natural Convergence

• Natural Convergence needs to be able to be cast while moving. The skill is pretty much only used for the short stability you gain upon casting it. In WvW, channeling this skill for 2.5 seconds is WAY too long to be stationary. This change would increase the power of the skill, but the stability application could be moved to the last pulse as a tradeoff. Moving the stability to the end allows people interrupt the skill to counterplay, whilst simultaneously increasing Druid's viability heavily in WvW.

Rejuvenating Tides

• If the Water Field is moved to Seed of life, Rejuvenating Tides gets freed up to be completely reworked into a new skill. I'd recommend a short 600 range teleport followed by stability on our pet, but I'll leave the details up to the devs.

  ---

Please discuss!

[Anchoku.8142]

@Aza.2105 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:If this split is limited to numbers, why not add toughness and vitality to every profession to tone down damage?

Thats because toughness doesn't work. You won't notice any difference.

Not even if every amulet added 500 toughness and 500 vitality? Maybe throw in some negative healing stat, too, as an experiment. Team fights can certainly be prolonged and professions leveled by global scaling of base stats.

[Irenio CalmonHuang.2048]

'ey all. As many of you have pointed out, a fair number of the changes posted earlier are not going to have the impact we're looking for, or only impact one of the two competitive modes. So we're going to be reviewing a lot of the posted changes and will be making some of them into just PvP and others into just WvW. The changes will be aimed at the game mode that they most directly impact.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:'ey all. As many of you have pointed out, a fair number of the changes posted earlier are not going to have the impact we're looking for, or only impact one of the two competitive modes. So we're going to be reviewing a lot of the posted changes and will be making some of them into just PvP and others into just WvW. The changes will be aimed at the game mode that they most directly impact.

Will there be a follow-up post at a later date with your revisions?

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:'ey all. As many of you have pointed out, a fair number of the changes posted earlier are not going to have the impact we're looking for, or only impact one of the two competitive modes. So we're going to be reviewing a lot of the posted changes and will be making some of them into just PvP and others into just WvW. The changes will be aimed at the game mode that they most directly impact.

Will there be a follow-up post at a later date with your revisions?

Yep! I'm hoping we'll get a revision within the next week or so. Possibly early next week, given localization time.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

@Blackjack.5621 said:Warrior and Engi nerfs seem reasonable.but you have to undo the delay on shade skills

No.

Every other class in the game has animations, delays, and tells on their biggest AoE skills. If they can deal so can you. Instant cast AoE bombs is a crutch for bad players that results in the game being less fun for everyone else.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:'ey all. As many of you have pointed out, a fair number of the changes posted earlier are not going to have the impact we're looking for, or only impact one of the two competitive modes. So we're going to be reviewing a lot of the posted changes and will be making some of them into just PvP and others into just WvW. The changes will be aimed at the game mode that they most directly impact.

It's great that you guys are taking community input, but it also really has to be stated that despite the flaws these rough draft of changes are still way better than the last 4 balance patches by a longshot.

[Aza.2105]

@Anchoku.8142 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:If this split is limited to numbers, why not add toughness and vitality to every profession to tone down damage?

Thats because toughness doesn't work. You won't notice any difference.

Not even if every amulet added 500 toughness and 500 vitality? Maybe throw in some negative healing stat, too, as an experiment. Team fights can certainly be prolonged and professions leveled by global scaling of base stats.

Nope it wouldn't change much. I'm a buildcrafter so I tend to test a lot of different possibilities that you normally wouldn't see in the meta. One thing I've specifically tested for quite awhile is if you could create a build that has high health and toughness and if they could survive all the extreme amounts of damage that is going around. The answer is no. I tested with rev, since theoretically they have high damage mitigation. With max toughness, scrapper rune, protection boon, minor gm trait from retribution line (with stability up and vengeful hammers up, you still will die in like 1-2 seconds.

Revenant also has the most theoretical condi dmg reduction. With their gm trait from kalla -33% condi damage, vengeful hammers -20%, kalla heal -50% and Rite of the Great dwarf -50%. When the heal is up or rite of the great dwarf, you take less condi damage but its not enough to change the fight at all. Once those two buffs fade, even with the -33% passive and vengeful hammers buff you die in a few seconds to conditions.

My conclusion is that damage is simply out of control. Its too high, too fast with little slow down between the damage being pumped out. The only way toughness or any form of mitigation would matter is if Anet scaled down damage significantly. Which would lead to another problem, there might not be enough damage to actually kill someone who is max mitigation. Ultimately the problem with gw2 pvp combat is the rate at which things are applied. That is damage and potentially mitigation. It just needs to be slowed down. There has to be a vulnerability time between each action you make, so enemies can punish you.

[OriOri.8724]

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:'ey all. As many of you have pointed out, a fair number of the changes posted earlier are not going to have the impact we're looking for, or only impact one of the two competitive modes. So we're going to be reviewing a lot of the posted changes and will be making some of them into just PvP and others into just WvW. The changes will be aimed at the game mode that they most directly impact.

Good to hear. I can't wait to see the second draft of the proposed mesmer changes especially. Please take into consideration our (mesmer players) thoughts on the EM change, many of us would rather lose the stunbreak entirely (and indeed some of us have wanted this change ever since the trait was originally leaked.....) than have exhaustion tacked on haphazardly like the first round of proposed changes suggested. There is some great discussion in the mesmer forums about why exhaustion not only hurts the class quite a bit more than it affects DD, while also not even addressing the root issue with EM, which is stunbreaks on ridiculously short CDs that allow us to then launch back an ambush attack, while also evading attacks.

[Dark Knight.6294]

Rip warrior

[shadowpass.4236]

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:'ey all. As many of you have pointed out, a fair number of the changes posted earlier are not going to have the impact we're looking for, or only impact one of the two competitive modes. So we're going to be reviewing a lot of the posted changes and will be making some of them into just PvP and others into just WvW. The changes will be aimed at the game mode that they most directly impact.@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:'ey all. As many of you have pointed out, a fair number of the changes posted earlier are not going to have the impact we're looking for, or only impact one of the two competitive modes. So we're going to be reviewing a lot of the posted changes and will be making some of them into just PvP and others into just WvW. The changes will be aimed at the game mode that they most directly impact.

Will there be a follow-up post at a later date with your revisions?

Yep! I'm hoping we'll get a revision within the next week or so. Possibly early next week, given localization time.

Oh my god that is wonderful :D

I am beyond happy with the communication. It is refreshing and really, really making a difference with the attitude in the community. Thank you!

---

Aside from this, another suggestion I had would be to give Bountiful Disillusionment a 10 second cooldown on the stability and possibly the removal of Aegis from Chaos Storm.

Not only that, but mesmers also have fairly easy access to permanent protection, as well as every other boon in the game. However, the permanent 2 stacks of stability with Bountiful Disillusionment coupled with the constant Aegis (that blocks the attacks that would strip it), make for a very powerful combination that is hard to stop.

[Shadowcat.2680]

To speak to D/D weaver, as some of these splits seem to be for the sake of buffing it, I think it needs more than damage buffs. Since the splits are limited to number modifications, I'd suggest buffing D/D weaver's healing (Cone of Cold and Steam Surge). Steam Surge is getting a damage buff, but I'd say the healing and the evade portions of that dual attack are more important than the damage. D/D weaver doesn't have as much evade or healing as sword and still has to be pretty much within melee range as most of dagger's dual attacks have a radius of 240. So where D/D seems to suffer is sustain more than it is damage as Cone of Cold and Steam Surge, the only heals associated with the water attunement of main hand dagger weaver, are pretty small heals with low coefficients.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

The one thing I worry about is when these changes go live, the class separation and viability are completely obliterated making some classes completely useless. Then we have to wait weeks/months before anything is even done to address it. That could be enough time to drive people out of the game permanently if they feel their class was destroyed and unusable.

I think with these changes a better direction might be is to just invoke them for a weekend or 2 (when the majority of people are on), to see how exactly it plays out. Then reverse them back to normal for the week. Let players see exactly how it plays out before committing. We can't have a situation where you've increased cool downs or something, or reduced damage completely crippling the class.

I would also encourage everyone at Anet actually jumps on each class and plays for a decent amount of time in each game mode (with the rest of the players during the trial period), to see first hand the effect of the changes you've made. So that way when players (and believe me it will happen en mass) start voicing displeasure about something, you "should" know exactly what they are talking about.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Arenanet, please read:

I'll state my opinions mostly from an spvp point of view, while still taking in to mind how it effects wvw and pve. But first it is important to point out what the problems are that the intra-class dynamic faces at this point in time in spvp. This is not only my opinion, but also the majority opinion of players playing platinum + at least from what I understand:

• Mesmer builds are too strong. There is too much DPS pressure here for how much survivability and utility is present.
• Spellbreakers specifically, not Berserker or Core, are too strong. This is mainly due to the power and utility behind Full Counter.
• Druids specifically, not Soulbeast or Core, are too strong. This is 100% due to Druidic Clarity and Celestial Shadow.
• Firebrand and Scourge are still mandatory choices for 5 man play and generally increase the win rates of any team, even in ranked or unranked, the more of them you have in your team. I wouldn't say they are "over powered" but the utility and function they bring into the dynamic of conquest matches or even wvw squads, is just more heavily evolved than anything else in the game right now. This effect becomes exponentially screwed up the more Firebrands and Scourges that are present on the same team together. They completely break the idea of not having a holy trinity. Firebrand and Scourge is the holy trinity at this point. Other classes/builds do not compare to the importance of these two in competitive play, spvp or wvw.
• The above problems result in the ultimate problem which is, very little class/build diversity in competitive play. Other classes aren't so gimped that they are unplayable but none of them are able to compete in viability with Mesmer based specs/Spellbreaker/Druid/Firebrand/Scourge.

How do I feel about the proposed changes? Well I think there are shortcuts and more simple ways to fix these problems that exist in spvp/wvw, without dabbling in so much change across the board on every character:

• Mesmers - Tone down the damage. It doesn't need to be neutered but it really needs a cut in its damage. However this is achieved, is up to the balance team.
• Spellbreakers - Full Counter needs nerfing. Nothing else needs to be touched! just Full Counter. However this is achieved, go for it balance team.
• Druids - There are way too many nerfs being directed into the wrong places on this one. I main Ranger/Druid/Soulbeast in every game mode and I tell you no lie when I say that the problem with Druid is completely within the two traits Druidic Clarity and Celestial Shadow. This is THE ENTIRE base of the Druid's survivability. Slightly nerfing these two traits wouldn't really effect pve and wvw play and would be better options than the enormous cuts proposed in the OP statement. Please read the previous thread I had opened on this topic as it goes into much deeper detail, with community feedback. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/27812/druid-post-2-6-2018-patch-druid-players-give-feedback/p1 - If you do not read the thread, the point being is: To make Druid Clarity cleanse 3 condis per second, for 4 seconds upon activation instead of immediate 13 condi cleanse and Celestial Shadow's stealth/super speed should be reduced from 3s to 2s. This is more than enough of a nerf to make Druids much easier to kill. Nerfing them too much, will result in Druid losing all viability in any competitive setting.
• Firebrands & Scourges - Honestly, and a lot of people may disagree with this, I don't think these classes need any nerfing. Maybe they need a bit of reallocation to where power lies within the specs or how healing/protections need to be rotated to achieve high end results but they do not need nerfing.

About holy trinity & niches - If anything, I can say to the balance team that there actually needs to be a holy trinity so to say. Every class/specialization should be a stapled kind of gameplay and role within any group. I believe it would be healthy for the game at this point. It also would help with overall balance because, if one class is the stapled boon removal guy "As example" nothing else can ever really replace him, despite how much he is nerfed. But when every class can do every job, naturally it will result in some top 3 statistically superior selections and balance will never be achieved. I think it would be a good idea, to focus on giving core/hot/pof specializtions there own niches that only they can really do. This would make every specialization irreplaceable and always the best at what they are designed to do. Firebrand, Scourge, Spellbreaker, Druid, Thieves are great examples of this competitively. Mesmer should be in that list but Mesmer is better used as an example of a class that can do too much and is too good at everything. Pve wise, you have Druids and Chronos that are the only distinguished roles and the rest are DPS transparently based. How to change that? No idea, probably a lot harder to do than it is competitively. In competitive settings you have more roles that classes can specialize in such as: Team Support, Side Node Monkey Bunker, Bruiser "many subtypes within this", Decap +1 DPS, Point Nuker "Which historically doesn't work well in conquest but works great in wvw backlines".

Oh and PS:

1. Barrier killing all critical hits is questionable and needs to be reviewed.
2. Leave Thief alone. Stop it, stop nerfing it. It doesn't need nerfing.
3. Please be careful who's feedback you listen to, if this is truly a patch dedicated towards competitive areas in the game.

[Vagrant.7206]

@"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:'ey all. As many of you have pointed out, a fair number of the changes posted earlier are not going to have the impact we're looking for, or only impact one of the two competitive modes. So we're going to be reviewing a lot of the posted changes and will be making some of them into just PvP and others into just WvW. The changes will be aimed at the game mode that they most directly impact.

I really appreciate that you've taken the time and the opportunity to hear us out on this. I hope you'll take my engineer suggestions to bring up core and scrapper to heart. The extra communication is wonderful, keep it up!

[Auturgist.8256]

@Turk.5460 said:

@"Auturgist.8256" said:

2. You say you want to increase build diversity, and decrease the power of some of the more dominant builds, but I don't see a single thing here addressing the absurdity of Deadeyes' burst damage from what is essentially perma-stealth (something ArenaNet has been opposed to in principle regarding the design of the Thief since the release of the game, if I'm not mistaken). How does this happen? How do you overlook this?

I main rifle, but I don't use Death's Judgement - I don't even use kneel unless I'm fighting a tower or keep lord and there are no enemy players around. But I have to play devils advocate here...In what world is the stealth driven Death's Judgement build considered a "dominant" build? I see more Dagger/Dagger

power

Thieves than Death's Judgement Thieves.

Maybe "dominant" doesn't describe that very well, but there's very little counterplay to getting one-shot and it happens enough that I feel something ought to be done about it if you want the game to be healthy.

[Mizhas.8536]

In my opinion, shade delay is not much of a problem but i really think that shades should be able to hit different heights like any other AoE in the game. It´s really frustrating in WvW that the enemy scourges can hit you from top of the wall and not having the chance of fighting them back.