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PvP/WvW Skill Split Release


Gaile Gray.6029

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:To render a ranger's class mechanic 100% useless? Probably not intentionally.But this happens to all classes. when you dodge them. An Engineer's toolbelt is rendered useless when it's avoided altogether. So why shouldn't Ranger be subject to the same treatment...

No that's not a good comparison. An Engineer's toolbelt at least has the potential to hit the mesmer. There's still a chance for it to do something.

The difference is, if you target break with MH axe off cooldown, a ranger's pet literally will not do anything.

But that same thing can happen to engineer's skills if you used them after targeting is broken. You can kite away the warrior's adrenaline by avoiding combat with him. i mean, saying that a ranger's pet should always stay on a target, regardless of the means the target used to defensively maneuver around your offense, is just absurd.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:To render a ranger's class mechanic 100% useless? Probably not intentionally.But this happens to all classes. when you dodge them. An Engineer's toolbelt is rendered useless when it's avoided altogether. So why shouldn't Ranger be subject to the same treatment...

No that's not a good comparison. An Engineer's toolbelt at least has the potential to hit the mesmer. There's still a chance for it to do something.

The difference is, if you target break with MH axe off cooldown, a ranger's pet literally will not do anything.

If the pet reacquired the correct target before the player that would be kind of ruining the whole point of target break as it would help the player identify the mesmer faster than they would otherwise (and the few seconds breathing room of real confusion it gives is the reason target break exists).

If they could do something like have the pet not run back to the ranger but rather hold still at it's current location upon losing target, stopping its attack and waiting - and only retarget immediately whatever target the player themselves decides to target initiate a skill cast on or simply auto attack (so if the player gets confused and targets a clone then that's their error in skill) surely that should be ok?

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@"Ghos.1326" said:I also want to point out a good "nerf" so to speak to scourge's sand savant. Maybe instead of lowering the cd AND increasing the size, simply increase the size of the said shades, however ELONGATE the cd of said shade charges, to not spam massive death bombs on the ground.

You have it reversed. Sand Savant needs to not increase the radius. The lower recharge is fine, but the increased radius means that the F skills all cover the entire point. Remember: the Scourge doesn't need a Shade out to use them, so increasing the shade cooldown isn't going to affect much.

Reduce/remove the radius increase on Sand Savant, possibly rework the trait entirely.

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@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@"Ghos.1326" said:I also want to point out a good "nerf" so to speak to scourge's sand savant. Maybe instead of lowering the cd AND increasing the size, simply increase the size of the said shades, however ELONGATE the cd of said shade charges, to not spam massive death bombs on the ground.

You have it reversed. Sand Savant needs to not increase the radius. The lower recharge is fine, but the increased radius means that the F skills all cover the entire point. Remember: the Scourge doesn't need a Shade out to use them, so increasing the shade cooldown isn't going to affect much.

Reduce/remove the radius increase on Sand Savant, possibly rework the trait entirely.

This would bring about the importance of give and take though. By taking x trait, you gain x benefit, but lose the benefits of x if you traited elsewhere. Which is why I suggested leaving the radius increase, but increasing the charge cooldown times of shades, that way, if they lay a shade on you lets say, from afar, but you were able to avoid it, now it's punishable at close range, opening up some counterplay from melee range. Or, if you lay one right on you, or on a node, but your opponent is a ranged build variant, now you're likely to be punished because you can't lay another shade for another x amount of seconds. It would give scourges the necessity to actually think about what they do, instead of just "oh i put my shade down at the wrong spot, WELL OMEGALUL I JUST LAY ANOTHER RIGHT AFTER THAT ON ANOTHER SPOT CLOSER TO YOU".

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@Ghos.1326 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:I also want to point out a good "nerf" so to speak to scourge's sand savant. Maybe instead of lowering the cd AND increasing the size, simply increase the size of the said shades, however ELONGATE the cd of said shade charges, to not spam massive death bombs on the ground.

You have it reversed. Sand Savant needs to not increase the radius. The lower recharge is fine, but the increased radius means that the F skills all cover the entire point. Remember: the Scourge doesn't need a Shade out to use them, so increasing the shade cooldown isn't going to affect much.

Reduce/remove the radius increase on Sand Savant, possibly rework the trait entirely.

This would bring about the importance of give and take though. By taking x trait, you gain x benefit, but lose the benefits of x if you traited elsewhere. Which is why I suggested leaving the radius increase, but increasing the charge cooldown times of shades, that way, if they lay a shade on you lets say, from afar, but you were able to avoid it, now it's punishable at close range, opening up some counterplay from melee range. Or, if you lay one right on you, or on a node, but your opponent is a ranged build variant, now you're likely to be punished because you can't lay another shade for another x amount of seconds. It would give scourges the necessity to actually think about what they do, instead of just "oh i put my shade down at the wrong spot, WELL OMEGALUL I JUST LAY ANOTHER RIGHT AFTER THAT ON ANOTHER SPOT CLOSER TO YOU".

It wouldn't work like that, though. In the case of melee foes, the Scourge doesn't need a shade at all, since they can simply use the F skills to the same effect. Against foes that attack them from long range, the Scourge already doesn't have the ability to really pressure them due to the ability to just walk out of shades, which definitely wouldn't be any different with your suggestion.

Your suggestion would accomplish next to nothing in practice.

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@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:I also want to point out a good "nerf" so to speak to scourge's sand savant. Maybe instead of lowering the cd AND increasing the size, simply increase the size of the said shades, however ELONGATE the cd of said shade charges, to not spam massive death bombs on the ground.

You have it reversed. Sand Savant needs to not increase the radius. The lower recharge is fine, but the increased radius means that the F skills all cover the entire point. Remember: the Scourge doesn't need a Shade out to use them, so increasing the shade cooldown isn't going to affect much.

Reduce/remove the radius increase on Sand Savant, possibly rework the trait entirely.

This would bring about the importance of give and take though. By taking x trait, you gain x benefit, but lose the benefits of x if you traited elsewhere. Which is why I suggested leaving the radius increase, but increasing the charge cooldown times of shades, that way, if they lay a shade on you lets say, from afar, but you were able to avoid it, now it's punishable at close range, opening up some counterplay from melee range. Or, if you lay one right on you, or on a node, but your opponent is a ranged build variant, now you're likely to be punished because you can't lay another shade for another x amount of seconds. It would give scourges the necessity to actually think about what they do, instead of just "oh i put my shade down at the wrong spot, WELL OMEGALUL I JUST LAY ANOTHER RIGHT AFTER THAT ON ANOTHER SPOT CLOSER TO YOU".

It wouldn't work like that, though. In the case of melee foes, the Scourge doesn't need a shade at all, since they can simply use the F skills to the same effect. Against foes that attack them from long range, the Scourge already doesn't have the ability to really pressure them due to the ability to just walk out of shades, which definitely wouldn't be any different with your suggestion.

Your suggestion would accomplish next to nothing in practice.

Considering you have condi clear and stun break, and also most well known melee oriented professions have resistance, it would accomplish a great deal.

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@Ghos.1326 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:I also want to point out a good "nerf" so to speak to scourge's sand savant. Maybe instead of lowering the cd AND increasing the size, simply increase the size of the said shades, however ELONGATE the cd of said shade charges, to not spam massive death bombs on the ground.

You have it reversed. Sand Savant needs to not increase the radius. The lower recharge is fine, but the increased radius means that the F skills all cover the entire point. Remember: the Scourge doesn't need a Shade out to use them, so increasing the shade cooldown isn't going to affect much.

Reduce/remove the radius increase on Sand Savant, possibly rework the trait entirely.

This would bring about the importance of give and take though. By taking x trait, you gain x benefit, but lose the benefits of x if you traited elsewhere. Which is why I suggested leaving the radius increase, but increasing the charge cooldown times of shades, that way, if they lay a shade on you lets say, from afar, but you were able to avoid it, now it's punishable at close range, opening up some counterplay from melee range. Or, if you lay one right on you, or on a node, but your opponent is a ranged build variant, now you're likely to be punished because you can't lay another shade for another x amount of seconds. It would give scourges the necessity to actually think about what they do, instead of just "oh i put my shade down at the wrong spot, WELL OMEGALUL I JUST LAY ANOTHER RIGHT AFTER THAT ON ANOTHER SPOT CLOSER TO YOU".

It wouldn't work like that, though. In the case of melee foes, the Scourge doesn't need a shade at all, since they can simply use the F skills to the same effect. Against foes that attack them from long range, the Scourge already doesn't have the ability to really pressure them due to the ability to just walk out of shades, which definitely wouldn't be any different with your suggestion.

Your suggestion would accomplish next to nothing in practice.

Considering you have condi clear and stun break, and also most well known melee oriented professions have resistance, it would accomplish a great deal.

It's like you didn't just read how it wouldn't change a thing in melee.

Placing a shade is ENTIRELY OPTIONAL against a melee opponent. It's completely not needed. Why? Because all of the F skills pulse around the Scourge himself! The only thing placing a Shade does is:

  1. trigger the Minor traits
  2. trigger the Master tier major trait.

It doesn't affect the Scourge's ability to kill you by sharing a point with him.

If, however, you reduced the radius granted from Sand Savant, now you the Scourge has to try and stay on top of his opponent in order to pressure them instead of getting it for free.

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@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:I also want to point out a good "nerf" so to speak to scourge's sand savant. Maybe instead of lowering the cd AND increasing the size, simply increase the size of the said shades, however ELONGATE the cd of said shade charges, to not spam massive death bombs on the ground.

You have it reversed. Sand Savant needs to not increase the radius. The lower recharge is fine, but the increased radius means that the F skills all cover the entire point. Remember: the Scourge doesn't need a Shade out to use them, so increasing the shade cooldown isn't going to affect much.

Reduce/remove the radius increase on Sand Savant, possibly rework the trait entirely.

This would bring about the importance of give and take though. By taking x trait, you gain x benefit, but lose the benefits of x if you traited elsewhere. Which is why I suggested leaving the radius increase, but increasing the charge cooldown times of shades, that way, if they lay a shade on you lets say, from afar, but you were able to avoid it, now it's punishable at close range, opening up some counterplay from melee range. Or, if you lay one right on you, or on a node, but your opponent is a ranged build variant, now you're likely to be punished because you can't lay another shade for another x amount of seconds. It would give scourges the necessity to actually think about what they do, instead of just "oh i put my shade down at the wrong spot, WELL OMEGALUL I JUST LAY ANOTHER RIGHT AFTER THAT ON ANOTHER SPOT CLOSER TO YOU".

It wouldn't work like that, though. In the case of melee foes, the Scourge doesn't need a shade at all, since they can simply use the F skills to the same effect. Against foes that attack them from long range, the Scourge already doesn't have the ability to really pressure them due to the ability to just walk out of shades, which definitely wouldn't be any different with your suggestion.

Your suggestion would accomplish next to nothing in practice.

Considering you have condi clear and stun break, and also most well known melee oriented professions have resistance, it would accomplish a great deal.

It's like you didn't just read how it wouldn't change a thing in melee.

Placing a shade is ENTIRELY OPTIONAL against a melee opponent. It's completely not needed. Why? Because all of the F skills pulse around the Scourge himself! The only thing placing a Shade does is:
  1. trigger the Minor traits
  2. trigger the Master tier major trait.

It doesn't affect the Scourge's ability to kill you by sharing a point with him.

If, however, you reduced the radius granted from Sand Savant, now you the Scourge has to try and stay on top of his opponent in order to pressure them instead of getting it for free.

yeah that wouldn't change much either considering your point. so i guess your suggested change wouldn't change a single thing either. -shrug- gg though.

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@Ghos.1326 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:I also want to point out a good "nerf" so to speak to scourge's sand savant. Maybe instead of lowering the cd AND increasing the size, simply increase the size of the said shades, however ELONGATE the cd of said shade charges, to not spam massive death bombs on the ground.

You have it reversed. Sand Savant needs to not increase the radius. The lower recharge is fine, but the increased radius means that the F skills all cover the entire point. Remember: the Scourge doesn't need a Shade out to use them, so increasing the shade cooldown isn't going to affect much.

Reduce/remove the radius increase on Sand Savant, possibly rework the trait entirely.

This would bring about the importance of give and take though. By taking x trait, you gain x benefit, but lose the benefits of x if you traited elsewhere. Which is why I suggested leaving the radius increase, but increasing the charge cooldown times of shades, that way, if they lay a shade on you lets say, from afar, but you were able to avoid it, now it's punishable at close range, opening up some counterplay from melee range. Or, if you lay one right on you, or on a node, but your opponent is a ranged build variant, now you're likely to be punished because you can't lay another shade for another x amount of seconds. It would give scourges the necessity to actually think about what they do, instead of just "oh i put my shade down at the wrong spot, WELL OMEGALUL I JUST LAY ANOTHER RIGHT AFTER THAT ON ANOTHER SPOT CLOSER TO YOU".

It wouldn't work like that, though. In the case of melee foes, the Scourge doesn't need a shade at all, since they can simply use the F skills to the same effect. Against foes that attack them from long range, the Scourge already doesn't have the ability to really pressure them due to the ability to just walk out of shades, which definitely wouldn't be any different with your suggestion.

Your suggestion would accomplish next to nothing in practice.

Considering you have condi clear and stun break, and also most well known melee oriented professions have resistance, it would accomplish a great deal.

It's like you didn't just read how it wouldn't change a thing in melee.

Placing a shade is ENTIRELY OPTIONAL against a melee opponent. It's completely not needed. Why? Because all of the F skills pulse around the Scourge himself! The only thing placing a Shade does is:
  1. trigger the Minor traits
  2. trigger the Master tier major trait.

It doesn't affect the Scourge's ability to kill you by sharing a point with him.

If, however, you reduced the radius granted from Sand Savant, now you the Scourge has to try and stay on top of his opponent in order to pressure them instead of getting it for free.

yeah that wouldn't change much either considering your point. so i guess your suggested change wouldn't change a single thing either. -shrug- gg though.

Reducing shade radius with Sand Savant would change EVERYTHING about Scourge being overbearing.

  1. You could contest a point with a Scourge on it without being completely required to tank the F skills. The Scourge himself can be kited.
  2. In WvW, the Scourge has a harder time hitting more than one target.
  3. It requires more skilled play to keep a target inside the danger zone.

I honestly have no idea how you can think changing these would have no effect on the PvP modes.

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@LinhZeri.6412 said:

=Stealth suggestion which would fix this mechanic: Make it so you see the target with the blurred outline like you see on the players own screen for everyone to see (possibly a bit harder by increasing the invisibility aspect or maybe make that a trait to be even more invisible if you wish to make a line dedicated to stealthing. This way you can do the stealth while also being harder to see. Also while in stealth you cannot be targeted but easily tracked since you can slightly see them but hard. This promotes a playstyle of actually sneaking up on targets rather than simply doing whatever and unseen. If this style of stealth is made you can even make it not moving will make you 100% invisible which promotes a unique style of cloaking sniper for deadeye and other classes to get the jump they desired (however your rooted In place as a downside) This is an idea ive always thought would be really interesting

This entire suggestion is horrible and I hope this isn't even considered.This isn't LoL and some skills (like all of thief stealth kit) requires you to be behind the target.Are you trying to invalidate an entire class ( classes really) because you don't like stealth?

Stealth isn't long lasting for most classes and it's not complete damage immunity.This game also has to many AoE's for this suggestion to even be serious.

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@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:I also want to point out a good "nerf" so to speak to scourge's sand savant. Maybe instead of lowering the cd AND increasing the size, simply increase the size of the said shades, however ELONGATE the cd of said shade charges, to not spam massive death bombs on the ground.

You have it reversed. Sand Savant needs to not increase the radius. The lower recharge is fine, but the increased radius means that the F skills all cover the entire point. Remember: the Scourge doesn't need a Shade out to use them, so increasing the shade cooldown isn't going to affect much.

Reduce/remove the radius increase on Sand Savant, possibly rework the trait entirely.

This would bring about the importance of give and take though. By taking x trait, you gain x benefit, but lose the benefits of x if you traited elsewhere. Which is why I suggested leaving the radius increase, but increasing the charge cooldown times of shades, that way, if they lay a shade on you lets say, from afar, but you were able to avoid it, now it's punishable at close range, opening up some counterplay from melee range. Or, if you lay one right on you, or on a node, but your opponent is a ranged build variant, now you're likely to be punished because you can't lay another shade for another x amount of seconds. It would give scourges the necessity to actually think about what they do, instead of just "oh i put my shade down at the wrong spot, WELL OMEGALUL I JUST LAY ANOTHER RIGHT AFTER THAT ON ANOTHER SPOT CLOSER TO YOU".

It wouldn't work like that, though. In the case of melee foes, the Scourge doesn't need a shade at all, since they can simply use the F skills to the same effect. Against foes that attack them from long range, the Scourge already doesn't have the ability to really pressure them due to the ability to just walk out of shades, which definitely wouldn't be any different with your suggestion.

Your suggestion would accomplish next to nothing in practice.

Considering you have condi clear and stun break, and also most well known melee oriented professions have resistance, it would accomplish a great deal.

It's like you didn't just read how it wouldn't change a thing in melee.

Placing a shade is ENTIRELY OPTIONAL against a melee opponent. It's completely not needed. Why? Because all of the F skills pulse around the Scourge himself! The only thing placing a Shade does is:
  1. trigger the Minor traits
  2. trigger the Master tier major trait.

It doesn't affect the Scourge's ability to kill you by sharing a point with him.

If, however, you reduced the radius granted from Sand Savant, now you the Scourge has to try and stay on top of his opponent in order to pressure them instead of getting it for free.

yeah that wouldn't change much either considering your point. so i guess your suggested change wouldn't change a single thing either. -shrug- gg though.

Reducing shade radius with Sand Savant would change EVERYTHING about Scourge being overbearing.
  1. You could contest a point with a Scourge on it without being completely required to tank the F skills. The Scourge himself can be kited.
  2. In WvW, the Scourge has a harder time hitting more than one target.
  3. It requires more skilled play to keep a target inside the danger zone.

I honestly have no idea how you can think changing these would have no effect on the PvP modes.

Easy. because shades only have a 1 sec charge cd, 8 seconds recharge for each charge traited, if i am not mistaken? he can still spam shades until the node is covered. it would work, considering each shade lasts what was it, 10 seconds? yeah, i honestly have no idea how you think your changes would have ANY effect on pvp modes.

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@Ghos.1326 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:I also want to point out a good "nerf" so to speak to scourge's sand savant. Maybe instead of lowering the cd AND increasing the size, simply increase the size of the said shades, however ELONGATE the cd of said shade charges, to not spam massive death bombs on the ground.

You have it reversed. Sand Savant needs to not increase the radius. The lower recharge is fine, but the increased radius means that the F skills all cover the entire point. Remember: the Scourge doesn't need a Shade out to use them, so increasing the shade cooldown isn't going to affect much.

Reduce/remove the radius increase on Sand Savant, possibly rework the trait entirely.

This would bring about the importance of give and take though. By taking x trait, you gain x benefit, but lose the benefits of x if you traited elsewhere. Which is why I suggested leaving the radius increase, but increasing the charge cooldown times of shades, that way, if they lay a shade on you lets say, from afar, but you were able to avoid it, now it's punishable at close range, opening up some counterplay from melee range. Or, if you lay one right on you, or on a node, but your opponent is a ranged build variant, now you're likely to be punished because you can't lay another shade for another x amount of seconds. It would give scourges the necessity to actually think about what they do, instead of just "oh i put my shade down at the wrong spot, WELL OMEGALUL I JUST LAY ANOTHER RIGHT AFTER THAT ON ANOTHER SPOT CLOSER TO YOU".

It wouldn't work like that, though. In the case of melee foes, the Scourge doesn't need a shade at all, since they can simply use the F skills to the same effect. Against foes that attack them from long range, the Scourge already doesn't have the ability to really pressure them due to the ability to just walk out of shades, which definitely wouldn't be any different with your suggestion.

Your suggestion would accomplish next to nothing in practice.

Considering you have condi clear and stun break, and also most well known melee oriented professions have resistance, it would accomplish a great deal.

It's like you didn't just read how it wouldn't change a thing in melee.

Placing a shade is ENTIRELY OPTIONAL against a melee opponent. It's completely not needed. Why? Because all of the F skills pulse around the Scourge himself! The only thing placing a Shade does is:
  1. trigger the Minor traits
  2. trigger the Master tier major trait.

It doesn't affect the Scourge's ability to kill you by sharing a point with him.

If, however, you reduced the radius granted from Sand Savant, now you the Scourge has to try and stay on top of his opponent in order to pressure them instead of getting it for free.

yeah that wouldn't change much either considering your point. so i guess your suggested change wouldn't change a single thing either. -shrug- gg though.

Reducing shade radius with Sand Savant would change EVERYTHING about Scourge being overbearing.
  1. You could contest a point with a Scourge on it without being completely required to tank the F skills. The Scourge himself can be kited.
  2. In WvW, the Scourge has a harder time hitting more than one target.
  3. It requires more skilled play to keep a target inside the danger zone.

I honestly have no idea how you can think changing these would have no effect on the PvP modes.

Easy. because shades only have a 1 sec charge cd, 8 seconds recharge for each charge traited, if i am not mistaken? he can still spam shades until the node is covered. it would work, considering each shade lasts what was it, 10 seconds? yeah, i honestly have no idea how you think your changes would have ANY effect on pvp modes.Because Sand Savant also doubles the radius of the shades. Removing it makes handling a Scourge a bit easier. Although I doubt it would kill scourge as hard as Drarnor thinks it will.
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@Crinn.7864 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:I also want to point out a good "nerf" so to speak to scourge's sand savant. Maybe instead of lowering the cd AND increasing the size, simply increase the size of the said shades, however ELONGATE the cd of said shade charges, to not spam massive death bombs on the ground.

You have it reversed. Sand Savant needs to not increase the radius. The lower recharge is fine, but the increased radius means that the F skills all cover the entire point. Remember: the Scourge doesn't need a Shade out to use them, so increasing the shade cooldown isn't going to affect much.

Reduce/remove the radius increase on Sand Savant, possibly rework the trait entirely.

This would bring about the importance of give and take though. By taking x trait, you gain x benefit, but lose the benefits of x if you traited elsewhere. Which is why I suggested leaving the radius increase, but increasing the charge cooldown times of shades, that way, if they lay a shade on you lets say, from afar, but you were able to avoid it, now it's punishable at close range, opening up some counterplay from melee range. Or, if you lay one right on you, or on a node, but your opponent is a ranged build variant, now you're likely to be punished because you can't lay another shade for another x amount of seconds. It would give scourges the necessity to actually think about what they do, instead of just "oh i put my shade down at the wrong spot, WELL OMEGALUL I JUST LAY ANOTHER RIGHT AFTER THAT ON ANOTHER SPOT CLOSER TO YOU".

It wouldn't work like that, though. In the case of melee foes, the Scourge doesn't need a shade at all, since they can simply use the F skills to the same effect. Against foes that attack them from long range, the Scourge already doesn't have the ability to really pressure them due to the ability to just walk out of shades, which definitely wouldn't be any different with your suggestion.

Your suggestion would accomplish next to nothing in practice.

Considering you have condi clear and stun break, and also most well known melee oriented professions have resistance, it would accomplish a great deal.

It's like you didn't just read how it wouldn't change a thing in melee.

Placing a shade is ENTIRELY OPTIONAL against a melee opponent. It's completely not needed. Why? Because all of the F skills pulse around the Scourge himself! The only thing placing a Shade does is:
  1. trigger the Minor traits
  2. trigger the Master tier major trait.

It doesn't affect the Scourge's ability to kill you by sharing a point with him.

If, however, you reduced the radius granted from Sand Savant, now you the Scourge has to try and stay on top of his opponent in order to pressure them instead of getting it for free.

yeah that wouldn't change much either considering your point. so i guess your suggested change wouldn't change a single thing either. -shrug- gg though.

Reducing shade radius with Sand Savant would change EVERYTHING about Scourge being overbearing.
  1. You could contest a point with a Scourge on it without being completely required to tank the F skills. The Scourge himself can be kited.
  2. In WvW, the Scourge has a harder time hitting more than one target.
  3. It requires more skilled play to keep a target inside the danger zone.

I honestly have no idea how you can think changing these would have no effect on the PvP modes.

Easy. because shades only have a 1 sec charge cd, 8 seconds recharge for each charge traited, if i am not mistaken? he can still spam shades until the node is covered. it would work, considering each shade lasts what was it, 10 seconds? yeah, i honestly have no idea how you think your changes would have ANY effect on pvp modes.Because Sand Savant also doubles the radius of the shades. Removing it makes handling a Scourge a bit easier. Although I doubt it would kill scourge as hard as Drarnor thinks it will.

exactly. even if a shade does not cover a node fully, he can still use another shade 1 second later due to the shade skill having 3 charges. At least putting shade skills on a 3-4 second charge cooldown (traited with sand savant) would stop spamming, heavily punishing scourges for just facerolling and laying shades where ever they want.

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@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:NecromancerPlease consider splitting Shroud size and degeneration between game modes. Shroud as a defensive mechanic does not scale with incoming damage which means that it overperforms in PvE where mobs do little damage, and underperforms in PvP where the damage is extremely high. Both core necro and REaper are currently suffering from completely inadequate defensive and sustain capabilities.

  • Plague Signet: Increased the cooldown from 30 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvWStill think you are looking at the wrong thing. While Plague Signet has a high pick rate, it's not what is making Scourge meta nor is it what made any of necro's old meta builds meta. Nerfing the cooldown will not make necros use other utilities because there literally are no other options for the slot.

  • Life Siphon: Reduced the cooldown from 12 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP and WvW

  • Dark Pact: Reduced the cooldown from 25 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvWThe cooldowns are not why necro dagger is never taken. It's the cast time. Dark Pact's immobilize is nearly impossible to use well because of it's long cast. Life Siphon is even worse as the channel is pretty much always be interrupted and the skill itself is too weak for how long it takes to channel.

  • Signet of Vampirism: Reduced the cooldown from 35 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW. Increased the base heal from 3960 to 4950 (+25%) in PvP and WvWLikewise Vamp Siggy needs a cast time reduction, otherwise it'll only ever be camped for it's passive, but of course since it's passive is very weak due to the "on hit" requirement no necro will ever take it even with these changes.

  • Blood is Power: Adjusted the Might granted from 10 stacks for 10 seconds to 15 stacks for 6 seconds in PvP and WvWStill not going to touch this skill. There are better ways to get might as a necro that don't involve both self harm and a long cast time.

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@Ghos.1326 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:I also want to point out a good "nerf" so to speak to scourge's sand savant. Maybe instead of lowering the cd AND increasing the size, simply increase the size of the said shades, however ELONGATE the cd of said shade charges, to not spam massive death bombs on the ground.

You have it reversed. Sand Savant needs to not increase the radius. The lower recharge is fine, but the increased radius means that the F skills all cover the entire point. Remember: the Scourge doesn't need a Shade out to use them, so increasing the shade cooldown isn't going to affect much.

Reduce/remove the radius increase on Sand Savant, possibly rework the trait entirely.

This would bring about the importance of give and take though. By taking x trait, you gain x benefit, but lose the benefits of x if you traited elsewhere. Which is why I suggested leaving the radius increase, but increasing the charge cooldown times of shades, that way, if they lay a shade on you lets say, from afar, but you were able to avoid it, now it's punishable at close range, opening up some counterplay from melee range. Or, if you lay one right on you, or on a node, but your opponent is a ranged build variant, now you're likely to be punished because you can't lay another shade for another x amount of seconds. It would give scourges the necessity to actually think about what they do, instead of just "oh i put my shade down at the wrong spot, WELL OMEGALUL I JUST LAY ANOTHER RIGHT AFTER THAT ON ANOTHER SPOT CLOSER TO YOU".

It wouldn't work like that, though. In the case of melee foes, the Scourge doesn't need a shade at all, since they can simply use the F skills to the same effect. Against foes that attack them from long range, the Scourge already doesn't have the ability to really pressure them due to the ability to just walk out of shades, which definitely wouldn't be any different with your suggestion.

Your suggestion would accomplish next to nothing in practice.

Considering you have condi clear and stun break, and also most well known melee oriented professions have resistance, it would accomplish a great deal.

It's like you didn't just read how it wouldn't change a thing in melee.

Placing a shade is ENTIRELY OPTIONAL against a melee opponent. It's completely not needed. Why? Because all of the F skills pulse around the Scourge himself! The only thing placing a Shade does is:
  1. trigger the Minor traits
  2. trigger the Master tier major trait.

It doesn't affect the Scourge's ability to kill you by sharing a point with him.

If, however, you reduced the radius granted from Sand Savant, now you the Scourge has to try and stay on top of his opponent in order to pressure them instead of getting it for free.

yeah that wouldn't change much either considering your point. so i guess your suggested change wouldn't change a single thing either. -shrug- gg though.

Reducing shade radius with Sand Savant would change EVERYTHING about Scourge being overbearing.
  1. You could contest a point with a Scourge on it without being completely required to tank the F skills. The Scourge himself can be kited.
  2. In WvW, the Scourge has a harder time hitting more than one target.
  3. It requires more skilled play to keep a target inside the danger zone.

I honestly have no idea how you can think changing these would have no effect on the PvP modes.

Easy. because shades only have a 1 sec charge cd, 8 seconds recharge for each charge traited, if i am not mistaken? he can still spam shades until the node is covered. it would work, considering each shade lasts what was it, 10 seconds? yeah, i honestly have no idea how you think your changes would have ANY effect on pvp modes.

With Sand Savant, it's a 10 second charge time (Vital Persistence has no effect on this). Yes, you can put out the shades quickly, but then you have a long period without any shades at all. Without Sand Savant you can cover most of the point (turns out, even with 3 shades + Scourge, you still will have open area on point) for 8 seconds, then you have at least 30 seconds before it can happen again, giving plenty of time for fighting.

Now, let's say the radius buff and single-shade aspects were removed on Sand Savant, leaving the cooldown reduction as the primary draw of the trait. Again, the Scourge could cover most (not all!) of the point for 8 seconds, then be unable to do it for the next 20. That gives plenty of time for actually fighting the Scourge.

If you kept the radius increase and upped the Shade charge cooldown, you would still have a Scourge covering the entire point 100% of the time because he himself pulses those effects out.

It really is quite simple how one change (reducing radius) would work while the opposite (increasing cooldown) does nothing practical. If it isn't, I just have to guess you've never played Scourge or have never actually fought one.

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It has been said before lots of times...

Necro needs the reduced shroud CD back.It is unplayable without it.

Make it a grand master in SR or Spite so that only power builds will benefit from it and take it.There is no current grand master trait I would take over a shroud CD reduction.

It really is that important to core necro and reaper.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:'ey all. As many of you have pointed out, a fair number of the changes posted earlier are not going to have the impact we're looking for, or only impact one of the two competitive modes. So we're going to be reviewing a lot of the posted changes and will be making some of them into just PvP and others into just WvW. The changes will be aimed at the game mode that they most directly impact.@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:'ey all. As many of you have pointed out, a fair number of the changes posted earlier are not going to have the impact we're looking for, or only impact one of the two competitive modes. So we're going to be reviewing a lot of the posted changes and will be making some of them into just PvP and others into just WvW. The changes will be aimed at the game mode that they most directly impact.

Will there be a follow-up post at a later date with your revisions?

Yep! I'm hoping we'll get a revision within the next week or so. Possibly early next week, given localization time.

Oh my god that is wonderful :D

I am beyond happy with the communication. It is refreshing and really, really making a difference with the attitude in the community. Thank you!

Aside from this, another suggestion I had would be to give Bountiful Disillusionment a 10 second cooldown on the stability and possibly the removal of Aegis from Chaos Storm.

Not only that, but mesmers also have fairly easy access to permanent protection, as well as every other boon in the game. However, the permanent 2 stacks of stability with Bountiful Disillusionment coupled with the constant Aegis (that blocks the attacks that would strip it), make for a very powerful combination that is hard to stop.

which build are you refering to? the bunker/support or the current meta power demolisher?you do know that nerf to the traits will result hurting the support build in all game mode (pve/pvp/wvw) while i think the problem is the the dmg .ask yourself what made this build meta only now?
  1. condi was nerf
  2. mirage appearedso you see the build was long ago nerfed but only now with the mirage got reemerge again. so the problem is within mirage trait line which got nerfed hard.so take scourge with curroption abilities or spellbreaker and mesmer will feel the pressure.

Bountiful Disillusionment provides a permanent 1 or 2 stacks of stability depending on how much boon duration the mesmer has. The constant Aegis and Permanent protection make it too strong against power builds.

Not to mention I don't think Anet had ranger in mind when designing Mirage, because the target breaks literally screw over our pet. A good Mirage can make a ranger's pet 100% useless.

Anyways, I've seen it work with a variety of amulets:

Harriers, marauders, demolisher, diviner, seeker, etc. etc.

as i said the trait was long before mirage so the problem is not with the trait rather mirage which by the way got nerfed

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All people want to play is Mesmer for strong reasons. If Mesmer not brought into balance with other classes and this patch goes through, you gonna have games where two join as Mesmer, then one or two swaps class to Mesmer, then one guy is playing firebrand or scourge. 3 or 4 Mesmer on one team and firebrand/scourge meta.

Please stop making Mesmer the god tier character. People want to play other classes.

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@messiah.1908 said:

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:'ey all. As many of you have pointed out, a fair number of the changes posted earlier are not going to have the impact we're looking for, or only impact one of the two competitive modes. So we're going to be reviewing a lot of the posted changes and will be making some of them into just PvP and others into just WvW. The changes will be aimed at the game mode that they most directly impact.@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:'ey all. As many of you have pointed out, a fair number of the changes posted earlier are not going to have the impact we're looking for, or only impact one of the two competitive modes. So we're going to be reviewing a lot of the posted changes and will be making some of them into just PvP and others into just WvW. The changes will be aimed at the game mode that they most directly impact.

Will there be a follow-up post at a later date with your revisions?

Yep! I'm hoping we'll get a revision within the next week or so. Possibly early next week, given localization time.

Oh my god that is wonderful :D

I am beyond happy with the communication. It is refreshing and really, really making a difference with the attitude in the community. Thank you!

Aside from this, another suggestion I had would be to give Bountiful Disillusionment a 10 second cooldown on the stability and possibly the removal of Aegis from Chaos Storm.

Not only that, but mesmers also have fairly easy access to permanent protection, as well as every other boon in the game. However, the permanent 2 stacks of stability with Bountiful Disillusionment coupled with the constant Aegis (that blocks the attacks that would strip it), make for a very powerful combination that is hard to stop.

which build are you refering to? the bunker/support or the current meta power demolisher?you do know that nerf to the traits will result hurting the support build in all game mode (pve/pvp/wvw) while i think the problem is the the dmg .ask yourself what made this build meta only now?
  1. condi was nerf
  2. mirage appearedso you see the build was long ago nerfed but only now with the mirage got reemerge again. so the problem is within mirage trait line which got nerfed hard.so take scourge with curroption abilities or spellbreaker and mesmer will feel the pressure.

Bountiful Disillusionment provides a permanent 1 or 2 stacks of stability depending on how much boon duration the mesmer has. The constant Aegis and Permanent protection make it too strong against power builds.

Not to mention I don't think Anet had ranger in mind when designing Mirage, because the target breaks literally screw over our pet. A good Mirage can make a ranger's pet 100% useless.

Anyways, I've seen it work with a variety of amulets:

Harriers, marauders, demolisher, diviner, seeker, etc. etc.

as i said the trait was long before mirage so the problem is not with the trait rather mirage which by the way got nerfed

Not enough

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@babazhook.6805 said:

  1. You say you want to increase build diversity, and decrease the power of some of the more dominant builds, but I don't see a single thing here addressing the absurdity of Deadeyes' burst damage from what is essentially perma-stealth (something ArenaNet has been opposed to in principle regarding the design of the Thief since the release of the game, if I'm not mistaken). How does this happen? How do you overlook this?

I main rifle, but I don't use Death's Judgement - I don't even use kneel unless I'm fighting a tower or keep lord and there are no enemy players around. But I have to play devils advocate here...In what world is the stealth driven Death's Judgement build considered a "dominant" build? I see more Dagger/Dagger
power
Thieves than Death's Judgement Thieves.

Maybe "dominant" doesn't describe that very well, but there's very little counterplay to getting one-shot and it happens enough that I feel something ought to be done about it if you want the game to be healthy.

I do not understand what you mean by Counterplay when you claim there little when it comes to a deaths judgement thief. There some few I meet in wvw (the vast majority are s/d and d/p when it comes to thief) and there plenty of counterplay. There certainly more counterplay then there is to a backstab or shadowshot. If you would play a Rifle DE thief you would learn this. It more effective to use the other rifle skills then DJ in very many cases simply because DJ can miss so often. For every DJ shot that hits there are many that do NOT hit. When you are on the receiving end you are not always seeing the ones that missed due to your counterplay. You only see what hits you and from that conclude there no counterplay.

I mean you either succeed or you die. There's no margin for error or opportunity for correction; if you don't dodge the shot, you are dead. Basically, if you aren't prescient, you die.

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@darwinslittlehelper.7182 said:One more thing. WvW has one kill=one rally. PvP needs this as well. Multiple rezzes off one kill is ridiculous in a 5 man to a side game. Looks terrible as well.One kill=one rally is fine.

I'm not sure what the algorithm is for who rallies in WvW, but in sPvP, it should be the person closest to dying, so that it's consistently impactful.

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@Auturgist.8256 said:

  1. You say you want to increase build diversity, and decrease the power of some of the more dominant builds, but I don't see a single thing here addressing the absurdity of Deadeyes' burst damage from what is essentially perma-stealth (something ArenaNet has been opposed to in principle regarding the design of the Thief since the release of the game, if I'm not mistaken). How does this happen? How do you overlook this?

I main rifle, but I don't use Death's Judgement - I don't even use kneel unless I'm fighting a tower or keep lord and there are no enemy players around. But I have to play devils advocate here...In what world is the stealth driven Death's Judgement build considered a "dominant" build? I see more Dagger/Dagger
power
Thieves than Death's Judgement Thieves.

Maybe "dominant" doesn't describe that very well, but there's very little counterplay to getting one-shot and it happens enough that I feel something ought to be done about it if you want the game to be healthy.

I do not understand what you mean by Counterplay when you claim there little when it comes to a deaths judgement thief. There some few I meet in wvw (the vast majority are s/d and d/p when it comes to thief) and there plenty of counterplay. There certainly more counterplay then there is to a backstab or shadowshot. If you would play a Rifle DE thief you would learn this. It more effective to use the other rifle skills then DJ in very many cases simply because DJ can miss so often. For every DJ shot that hits there are many that do NOT hit. When you are on the receiving end you are not always seeing the ones that missed due to your counterplay. You only see what hits you and from that conclude there no counterplay.

I mean you either succeed or you die. There's no margin for error or opportunity for correction; if you don't dodge the shot, you are dead. Basically, if you aren't prescient, you die.

Well I am not prescient and I rarely die to a DJ. It has a lot of tells and ways to counter it. the DJ shot has one of the biggest tells in the game. s/d thief is much deadlier.

Reflects, Blocks , using LOS all work against DJ in addition to dodge and various immunities.

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@babazhook.6805 said:

  1. You say you want to increase build diversity, and decrease the power of some of the more dominant builds, but I don't see a single thing here addressing the absurdity of Deadeyes' burst damage from what is essentially perma-stealth (something ArenaNet has been opposed to in principle regarding the design of the Thief since the release of the game, if I'm not mistaken). How does this happen? How do you overlook this?

I main rifle, but I don't use Death's Judgement - I don't even use kneel unless I'm fighting a tower or keep lord and there are no enemy players around. But I have to play devils advocate here...In what world is the stealth driven Death's Judgement build considered a "dominant" build? I see more Dagger/Dagger
power
Thieves than Death's Judgement Thieves.

Maybe "dominant" doesn't describe that very well, but there's very little counterplay to getting one-shot and it happens enough that I feel something ought to be done about it if you want the game to be healthy.

I do not understand what you mean by Counterplay when you claim there little when it comes to a deaths judgement thief. There some few I meet in wvw (the vast majority are s/d and d/p when it comes to thief) and there plenty of counterplay. There certainly more counterplay then there is to a backstab or shadowshot. If you would play a Rifle DE thief you would learn this. It more effective to use the other rifle skills then DJ in very many cases simply because DJ can miss so often. For every DJ shot that hits there are many that do NOT hit. When you are on the receiving end you are not always seeing the ones that missed due to your counterplay. You only see what hits you and from that conclude there no counterplay.

I mean you either succeed or you die. There's no margin for error or opportunity for correction; if you don't dodge the shot, you are dead. Basically, if you aren't prescient, you die.

Well I am not prescient and I rarely die to a DJ. It has a lot of tells and ways to counter it. the DJ shot has one of the biggest tells in the game. s/d thief is much deadlier.

Reflects, Blocks , using LOS all work against DJ in addition to dodge and various immunities.

Yes but that is just dumb. Because the enemy is working purely on anticipation. They don't know when exactly you will use death's judgement since you are stealthed. So its not really counter play in that sense. What you are saying is the result of the nonsense gw2 has created with pvp. Its not ok to be able to one shot someone from stealth. Its not healthy for a competitive game.

If I was in charge of balancing the game, the first thing I would do is add a -damage debuff upon exiting stealth with a attack or make it so exiting stealth with a attack automatically puts all of your skills on global cooldown accept auto attack.

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@Aza.2105 said:Yes but that is just dumb. Because the enemy is working purely on anticipation. They don't know when exactly you will use death's judgement since you are stealthed. So its not really counter play in that sense. What you are saying is the result of the nonsense gw2 has created with pvp. Its not ok to be able to one shot someone from stealth. Its not healthy for a competitive game.

If I was in charge of balancing the game, the first thing I would do is add a -damage debuff upon exiting stealth with a attack or make it so exiting stealth with a attack automatically puts all of your skills on global cooldown accept auto attack.

Even WoW, which has permastealth for Rogues (and Feral Druids) does a good job of ensuring that equally geared players can't one-shot someone from stealth. Attacks from stealth do a lot to put your opponent on the defensive, but it's hard to kill someone straight out of stealth.

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