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Instead of brutally murdering any chance Scourge has at all in higher level PvP (and not doing other Necro variants much of a favor with other nerfs), why not just rework Sand Savant?

Without the ability to cover an entire point with a single shade in PvP, Scourge loses its oppressive nature while retaining its threat. Remove the radius increase on Shade abilities from Sand Savant, rework the trait as a whole (no more single shade, though target increase and reduced recharge should be fine to keep) and Scourge will actually have to place multiple shades out to cover a capture point, meaning they can't do so indefinitely.

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@Threather.9354 said:

Druid
: Seems like druid CA got the treatment it deserved, it was uninteractive. [Druid] will not be viable in large scale fights which is ok.How is that remotely okay? Group support is entirely
why
Druid exists.

~ Kovu

It wasnt viable before either. Ventari rev, melee tempest, melee rev, firebrand, boonshare chrono etc were all just outperforming it outright. No reliable CC, no unique support, not enough group cleanse or boonshare...

Yeah, so lets nerf it further, instead of addressing those issues.

~ Kovu

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Feedback for changes to rangerI'm a really big fan of the high level changes you've made but I think you might have missed some really good ones and hit some that aren't relevant:

  • rejuvenating tides is seeing a very good nerf, one that was probably a little overdue.
  • solar beam nerf is ok but pretty pointless to nerf damage an a set that doesn't do damage.
  • celestial avatar recharge increase creates too much of a split between PvP and PvE, I don't think this is the right way to nerf druids sustain because it affects every druid build, there is a better way that is more in line with your goals.

Some things that I thought you missed:

  • empathic bond could very much use a buff, as it is it contributes less to dealing with conditions than with wilderness knowledge.Nerf Staff not CAWhen you read complaints about druid on the forum you read "afk pressing 1" not "omg unkillable ca combo." People hate the passive game play of staff, less the active usage of CA. It's not because CA is weak, but rather because staff is too strong. Look at meta battle and it's very clear that the meta kit for druids is almost always staff.
  • solar beam, this is the problem skill in PvP and WvW, more than any CA ability, this skill contributes most heavily to the passive playstyle of druid. I would recommend decreasing the healing contribution by at least 50% if not more.
  • astral wisp, much like solar beam this skill is actually kind of unhealthy, its a set and forget skill that pumps out aoe healing and damage and will hit people who are still fleeing.
  • ancestral grace, this is actually an overall pretty well designed skill, because of the blast combo though I think that it is also a bit too good for what it does. Consider reducing its healing by around 20%.
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@Kovu.7560 said:

@Threather.9354 said:It wasnt viable before either. Ventari rev, melee tempest, melee rev, firebrand, boonshare chrono etc were all just outperforming it outright. No reliable CC, no unique support, not enough group cleanse or boonshare...

Yeah, so lets nerf it
further
, instead of addressing those issues.

~ Kovu

They would need to rework ranger weapons for it. Which is not obviously going to happen in this patch. Theres just no viable weapons for fights that deal enough damage or CC. Also some utility skills would need to give stab, aegis, superspeed, clenase, quickness, resistance etc for allies. Ranger is just too pet reliant for the weapons to be good.

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@Turk.5460 said:

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:A message from the Competitive and Skills & Balance Teams:LB and GS are a ranger or soulbeasts primary DPS weapons in WvW, optionally Sw/x in place of GS. These are the weapons that could use damage increases to make up for the loss of sustain.

The point was to create more options for build diversity. Almost every power SB I see uses LB and GS. Why the heck would they want to further make those weapons the go-to choice? That's the opposite of their end goal.

The simple answer is because those are our best power weapons and GS provides the best cleave we have. The axe is a wannabe hybrid weapon that completely under-performs so why buff it and not buff weapons like LB that when traited can give rangers some cleave or GS. Axe may get used by roamers but thats only one aspect of WvW play and the range is too short to survive the pirate ship.

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@Threather.9354 said:

@Threather.9354 said:It wasnt viable before either. Ventari rev, melee tempest, melee rev, firebrand, boonshare chrono etc were all just outperforming it outright. No reliable CC, no unique support, not enough group cleanse or boonshare...

Yeah, so lets nerf it
further
, instead of addressing those issues.

~ Kovu

They would need to rework ranger weapons for it. Which is not obviously going to happen in this patch. Theres just no viable weapons for fights that deal enough damage or CC. Also some utility skills would need to give stab, aegis, superspeed, clenase, quickness, resistance etc for allies. Ranger is just too pet reliant for the weapons to be good.

I mean, you're right. As it is now I don't disagree.But that said, change the support aspects to be more geared towards supporting your party more consistently instead of relying on supplementary damage. Gear the healing towards being more consistent instead of so bursty and make changes that'll help the Druid be more efficient in those large group situations without turning them into personal sustain gods in the small scale. 'Outgoing Healing' is a thing.I made some suggestions on the previous page in regards to that, though there are any number of directions they could take it.

~ Kovu

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The changes are not bad but....

the mirage problem is not solved. still superior sustain and mobiliy mixed with insane dmg.

i think there shouldve been more nerfs on s/d thief tho and spellbreaker is going to be awful after the patch. so either core war is going to be the "viable warrior build" or u just made war completly unplayable again.

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@Gaile Gray.6029 said:A message from the Competitive and Skills & Balance Teams:

General

  • Rune of Surging has been removed from the PvP build panel
  • Magi Amulet has been removed from the PvP build panel

Guardian

Skills

  • Tome of Resolve – Epilogue: Eternal Oasis: Reduced the bonus heal effectiveness from 33% to 20% in PvP and WvW
  • Tome of Resolve – Chapter 2: Radiant Recovery: Reduced the healing power coefficient per condition cleansed from 0.77 to 0.5 (-35%) in PvP and WvW
  • Tome of Resolve – Chapter 1: Desert Bloom: Reduced the healing power coefficient from 0.96 to 0.8 (-17%) in PvP and WvW
  • Signet of Resolve: Reduced the cooldown from 35 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Leap of Faith: Increased the power coefficient from 1.1 to 1.25 (+14%) in PvP and WvW
  • Signet of Mercy: Reduced the cooldown from 150 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Sword of Justice: Reduced the ammo recharge time from 25 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Bow of Truth: Reduced the ammo recharge time from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Hammer of Wisdom: Reduced the ammo recharge time from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Feel my Wrath: Reduced the cooldown from 45 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW

Traits

  • Virtuous Solace: Increased the cooldown from 75 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
  • Hunter's Determination: Increased the cooldown from 75 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
  • Zealous Blade: Increased the bonus damage from 5% to 10% in PvP and WvW

I am all up for changes, but come on lol more nerfs to FB??! And more buffs to Spirit Weapons?! This cant be serious, Anet gotta be trolling at this point...what is the end goal here, turn FB support into Shout Warrior level or something? If you guys dont want Support/Bunker specs to be viable on the game its cool, but atleast give us something to play that can be competitive.And now Magi will be removed too...FB trying to hold a point is bad, but a power Mesmer being able to erase you in a sec is okay? Next expasion better give guardians some kind of ninja elite spec that can evade, teleport, stealth and deal heavy damage, since in this game the only thing allowed is damage...that or undo the nerfs to DH.

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WvW perspective on most of this

Lot of this is great, Scourge nerfs in are 10000% deserved and i think will do better for the mode overall

But, please, PLEASE change resist ->immobilize corruption; this single interaction heavily discourages any melee builds. I get that this would probably have to be a game-wide change, however this funtionality is practically useless in basically all PvE content, and has next to no meaningful interactions in PvP

Some specific notes:

Battle Standard: Reduced the cooldown from 240 seconds to 180 seconds in PvP and WvW - This is 100% just worse than transfusion in almost every scenario, where transfuse can near instant revive while also moving allies out of WoD or cleave. I'd suggest to increase the banner impact heal by 100% to counteract poison, to make it unique and guarantee a rally so this skill has at least some viability. Basically everything warrior can do, scourge has in its toolbox and does it better.

Vengeful Hammers: Reduced the upkeep cost from 7 to 6 in PvP and WvW - using this skill more often than not just loses you health outright due to retaliation. It's just a complete waste of energy, either increase its healing to mitigate retal dps or make it destroy projectiles or something useful

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Elusive Mind - decent idea to add Exhaustion, although bear in mind Mirage still only has 2 dodge bars therefore 4s of zero endurance regen could be too punishing. Will have to be monitored carefully.

Also bear in mind unique nature of Mirage dodge compared to Daredevil - Mirage can still dodge when stunned even without EM - this puts EM in the weird situation where it can be a detrimental trait.

Example - on Mirage without EM you will be able to dodge while stunned, not break the stun (but if it is short duration wait it out), and maintain endurance regen. With EM you will break the stun but lose endurance regen for 4s - but the question is is breaking the stun always necessary? I'd argue that it isn't always necessary, especially with short duration dazes and stuns (less than 1 second), such that EM becomes a negative effect trait. What if I want to evade but NOT break stun, and clear a condition?

Finally Exhaustion could be addressed at this point because I believe UC was excessively nerfed in the past. Exhaustion could provide only a 50% reduction in endurance regen (same as weakness) rather than 100% reduction.

Alternative solution I would prefer - a flat ICD of 10s on the stunbreak portion, with a clear visual tell - ie icon on status bar, aura arround player, UI effect on endurance meter, etc.

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Kinda funny to see things like Soothing Bastion getting increased cd, but I get that it's for consistency ;D .

When it comes to amulets, I talked about this in the past. Additional profession-specific (or putting 2-3 similar professions into a group and assigning group-specific) amulets and runes would go a long way in bringing new builds to the table. More often than not, an amulet has to be removed because of just one profession abusing it and all builds on other classes which strive to do the same get punished. Removing Magi from Guardian, but leaving it for Necro is an example. You could even make it specialization-specific (so Guardian has access to X amulet on core, but for Y elite guardian specialization it's locked for being too synergistic).

Skimming through the changes, Warrior seems to be getting a noticeable nerf. Time will tell if it's needed, but just a quick note: Since the new Physical trait is cut in 1/3 for WvW and PvP, you could buff Rampage damage in these game modes to match the previous state. Losing 23% damage is a big deal and I think it was just overlooked.

As far as Scourge goes, could you just take out Sand Savant out of the game and nerf Scourge this way instead. Pretty please, it's one of the dumbest traits in history that essentialy, as a final trait, removes the decision-making of Scourge you've added in the first and subsequent minors.

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I am not sure if I agree with reverting the resistance corrupting to immob for WvW like lot of people here suggest.

If there would just be enough players on commander with AoE clenase, there would be no conditions at all with the new specs like scourge, holo, firebrand.

Real guilds have no problem with it. Why do these people do?

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@Felipe.1807 said:

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:A message from the Competitive and Skills & Balance Teams:

General
  • Rune of Surging has been removed from the PvP build panel
  • Magi Amulet has been removed from the PvP build panel

Guardian

Skills
  • Tome of Resolve – Epilogue: Eternal Oasis: Reduced the bonus heal effectiveness from 33% to 20% in PvP and WvW
  • Tome of Resolve – Chapter 2: Radiant Recovery: Reduced the healing power coefficient per condition cleansed from 0.77 to 0.5 (-35%) in PvP and WvW
  • Tome of Resolve – Chapter 1: Desert Bloom: Reduced the healing power coefficient from 0.96 to 0.8 (-17%) in PvP and WvW
  • Signet of Resolve: Reduced the cooldown from 35 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Leap of Faith: Increased the power coefficient from 1.1 to 1.25 (+14%) in PvP and WvW
  • Signet of Mercy: Reduced the cooldown from 150 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Sword of Justice: Reduced the ammo recharge time from 25 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Bow of Truth: Reduced the ammo recharge time from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Hammer of Wisdom: Reduced the ammo recharge time from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Feel my Wrath: Reduced the cooldown from 45 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW

Traits
  • Virtuous Solace: Increased the cooldown from 75 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
  • Hunter's Determination: Increased the cooldown from 75 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
  • Zealous Blade: Increased the bonus damage from 5% to 10% in PvP and WvW

I am all up for changes, but come on lol more nerfs to FB??! And more buffs to Spirit Weapons?! This cant be serious, Anet gotta be trolling at this point...what is the end goal here, turn FB support into Shout Warrior level or something? If you guys dont want Support/Bunker specs to be viable on the game its cool, but atleast give us something to play that can be competitive.And now Magi will be removed too...FB trying to hold a point is bad, but a power Mesmer being able to erase you in a sec is okay? Next expasion better give guardians some kind of ninja elite spec that can evade, teleport, stealth and deal heavy damage, since in this game the only thing allowed is damage...that or undo the nerfs to DH.

Notice how they barely touched mesmer, just giving it a couple of token nerfs and then compare the rest of the nerfs on every single class. Back to getting one shotted for 14k by disenchanter or having 8 berserkers delete you all day every day.

Yea at this point the favouritism is beyond a joke.

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@Rym.1469 said:As far as Scourge goes, could you just take out Sand Savant out of the game and nerf Scourge this way instead. Pretty please, it's one of the dumbest traits in history that essentialy, as a final trait, removes the decision-making of Scourge you've added in the first and subsequent minors.

This. The biggest reason Scourge is so strong in PvP is because Sand Savant lets it cover a point entirely. Rework this trait entirely if you have to, but this is one change that would actually bring Scourge into line without butchering the spec's ability to deal with people that can dodge the biggest tells in the game.

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I don't think the skill balance team spends any time in actual WvW against actually good opponents. They follow around pugmanders and fight trash-tier players during off hours. I don't think I've ever seen a single Anet tag during prime time NA WvW. If they did, and maybe played with a dedicated WvW fights guild, and not a braindead PPT one, they'd see how horrible it is to look at WvW the same as PvP. Coordinated fights between 20+ people on each side is as different from sPvP as playing a raid wing in PvE. It's like saying American football and MMA fighting are the same thing. The mechanics, movement, skill-ceiling, teamwork; everything is different. When you're using PvP as the baseline for these changes and expecting the same outcome for WvW it's asking for widespread imbalances and even rendering some classes either completely useless or pigeon-holed into one single build and playstyle. This method of thinking has made and continues to make this gamemode less and less fun to play.

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@ImperialWL.7138 said:I wouldn't complain, I get you're mesmer main but for an idea of the favouritism just compare the length of nerfs mesmer got to the length of nerfs every other profession in the game received.

I don't disagree with you, but the physical length of a section of patch notes has no bearing on their severity. More text doesn't equal more change. I think that mesmer needs some additional changes, but let's at least try to discuss them in meaningful ways.

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@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

High Level Goals

Reduce influence of passive traits. (PvP not WvW)

  • Passive skills make the game less skillful.
  • The prevalence of passives is a common competitive player complaint. (PvP only)

Why the passive trait nerfs only in PvP and not in WvW?I'd argue that they have an even bigger impact in 'making the game less skillful' in WvW than they do in sPvP

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@ImperialWL.7138 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:Elusive Mind - decent idea to add Exhaustion, although bear in mind Mirage still only has 2 dodge bars therefore 4s of zero endurance regen could be too punishing. Will have to be monitored carefully.

Also bear in mind unique nature of Mirage dodge compared to Daredevil - Mirage can still dodge when stunned even without EM - this puts EM in the weird situation where it can be a detrimental trait.

Example - on Mirage without EM you will be able to dodge while stunned, not break the stun (but if it is short duration wait it out), and maintain endurance regen. With EM you will break the stun but lose endurance regen for 4s - but the question is
is breaking the stun always necessary
? I'd argue that it isn't always necessary, especially with short duration dazes and stuns (less than 1 second), such that EM becomes a negative effect trait. What if I want to evade but NOT break stun, and clear a condition?

Finally Exhaustion could be addressed at this point because I believe UC was excessively nerfed in the past. Exhaustion could provide only a 50% reduction in endurance regen (same as weakness) rather than 100% reduction.

Alternative solution I would prefer - a flat ICD of 10s on the stunbreak portion, with a clear visual tell - ie icon on status bar, aura arround player, UI effect on endurance meter, etc.

I wouldn't complain, I get you're mesmer main but for an idea of the favouritism just compare the length of nerfs mesmer got to the length of nerfs every other profession in the game received.

Oh I'm not that bothered - but I am noting the delicate situation of this trait where it can go from overpowered to becoming something bad for your build, due to the unique nature of Mirage dodge allowing evasion while stunned anyway.

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