Skill Splitting feedback

[Exitus.3297]

So the Skill Split patch is coming soon, and I wanted to give my feedback and get other's feedback as well.

In order to preserve skill cohesion, it is usually not the greatest idea to split skills in my opinion. While I agree it is sometimes necessary, Game Developers should avoid skill splitting between game modes unless absolutely necessary as a general rule. I accept the reality that some skills that work well in one mode may be completely broken on either end of the spectrum in another. It is in these circumstances a skill may need to be tuned. Generally speaking, you still want to maintain the functionality of the skill as much as possible. You also want to avoid fixing things that aren't broken.

So here is my general feedback on the incoming patch (at least from reading it) and the general vibe from it: to me it seems that the skill splitting has been getting out of hand. ANet went from trying not to split skills as a rule, to now where even auto attacks get their own scaling based on game mode. The past couple of patches have been almost dedicated to splitting PvP and PvE game modes. Once again, I do not have an issue with this as long as skills maintain their cohesion, general functionality, and overall "feel". In this upcoming patch, we actually see skills changing quite radically.

One example is Shadowshot, where the damage in PvP is going up a whopping 36%, but going from a 4 to 5 Initiative cost. While I'm sure players are mostly okay with this tradeoff, the problem I have here is that most decent Thief players can more or less track Initiative in their head without evening thinking about and only brief glances at the Initiative bar. Because of the new cost, this is going to throw Thief players in for a loop. The skill went from being a move Thieves generally used to blind and just catch up to an opponent and do okay damage, to basically being a skill that is intended to hit hard with a higher cost. Any Thief that routinely used Shadowshot > stow weapon > Backstab will really feel this change. While it isn't drastic, it will certainly be noticeable. I'm sure mains from other classes will be able to chime in similar concerns (I main Thief so this is the change that stood out to me the most).

I'm not trying to make any complaints regarding the general state of Thieves. If anything, these changes may put them in a good spot, relative to all of the other changes taking place. My concern here is that ANet going a little overboard with the skill splits. I can definitely say I'm a player that would rather have consistency between the game modes to some degree, and seeing massive skill splits every patch is getting a bit unnerving, because my primary concern is that classes will reach a point where their PvP and PvE counterparts will feel completely different, even with the same trait setup (although I do admit I could be paranoid).

What is everyone else's thoughts?

[rank eleven monk.9502]

There are numerous threads already, including a stickied announcement in the exact same subforum you posted (official feedback thread).

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29690/pvp-wvw-skill-split-release#latest

Maybe try here.

[Exitus.3297]

@"rank eleven monk.9502" said:There are numerous threads already, including a stickied announcement in the exact same subforum you posted (official feedback thread).

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29690/pvp-wvw-skill-split-release#latest

Maybe try here.

Thank you for the assistance, but the feedback I was trying to provide was less about this specific patch and more of the overall direction of the game. I already gave my 2 cents on that thread

[BeLZedaR.4790]

I prefer the current direction than the other option which is they balance for PvE and everyone else gotta deal with it and suck it up. Reality is there is no 3rd option as PvE is their biggest audience, and despite many of its population not being affected by the meta (content is clearable on full rev squad even though it’s “dead”), they like to try and be like the elites of SC and such so they grief the nonmeta players. As a result it becomes an issue there.

They did mention however and they are sticking to maintaining shared functionality, and only changing numbers.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

@"Exitus.3297" said:So the Skill Split patch is coming soon, and I wanted to give my feedback and get other's feedback as well.

In order to preserve skill cohesion, it is usually not the greatest idea to split skills in my opinion. While I agree it is sometimes necessary, Game Developers should avoid skill splitting between game modes unless absolutely necessary as a general rule. I accept the reality that some skills that work well in one mode may be completely broken on either end of the spectrum in another. It is in these circumstances a skill may need to be tuned. Generally speaking, you still want to maintain the functionality of the skill as much as possible. You also want to avoid fixing things that aren't broken.

So here is my general feedback on the incoming patch (at least from reading it) and the general vibe from it: to me it seems that the skill splitting has been getting out of hand. ANet went from trying not to split skills as a rule, to now where even auto attacks get their own scaling based on game mode. The past couple of patches have been almost dedicated to splitting PvP and PvE game modes. Once again, I do not have an issue with this as long as skills maintain their cohesion, general functionality, and overall "feel". In this upcoming patch, we actually see skills changing quite radically.

One example is Shadowshot, where the damage in PvP is going up a whopping 36%, but going from a 4 to 5 Initiative cost. While I'm sure players are mostly okay with this tradeoff, the problem I have here is that most decent Thief players can more or less track Initiative in their head without evening thinking about and only brief glances at the Initiative bar. Because of the new cost, this is going to throw Thief players in for a loop. The skill went from being a move Thieves generally used to blind and just catch up to an opponent and do okay damage, to basically being a skill that is intended to hit hard with a higher cost. Any Thief that routinely used Shadowshot > stow weapon > Backstab will really feel this change. While it isn't drastic, it will certainly be noticeable. I'm sure mains from other classes will be able to chime in similar concerns (I main Thief so this is the change that stood out to me the most).

I'm not trying to make any complaints regarding the general state of Thieves. If anything, these changes may put them in a good spot, relative to all of the other changes taking place. My concern here is that ANet going a little overboard with the skill splits. I can definitely say I'm a player that would rather have consistency between the game modes to some degree, and seeing massive skill splits every patch is getting a bit unnerving, because my primary concern is that classes will reach a point where their PvP and PvE counterparts will feel completely different, even with the same trait setup (although I do admit I could be paranoid).

What is everyone else's thoughts?

mate put it on the post of the skill splitting not here it. they read the skill splitting.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

For a health game skill splitting is really important. If you get the numbers of pve(what is needed for pve enemy more hp and so), but bring it against a enemy wiht max 25 k hp you can 1 shot people and dont' forget powercreep. Skills that work in pve are OP in pvp and WVW and skills that are normal in pvp and wvw are weak in pve. So skillsplitting is really important.

[Exitus.3297]

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:For a health game skill splitting is really important. If you get the numbers of pve(what is needed for pve enemy more hp and so), but bring it against a enemy wiht max 25 k hp you can 1 shot people and dont' forget powercreep. Skills that work in pve are OP in pvp and WVW and skills that are normal in pvp and wvw are weak in pve. So skillsplitting is really important.

I definitely understand the sentiment here and completely agree. However, other games to balance around that fact typically by making player-character's strong enough that they can't be 1-shotted by other play-characters unless explicitly designed to so, which usually comes at the cost of being very glassy themselves. Long story short, these skills are typically taken into account when balancing, but I agree sometimes it is necessary.

Ultimately, I'm glad ANet released these patch notes early to get feedback. Generally speaking, I think they are going in the right direction, but these are my concerns with the patch so far in a nutshell:

1. I think they are going a little crazy with skill-splitting (auto-attacks are now getting split which is just plain bizarre to me).
2. They are going a bit too far with the changes to healing/damaging skills in 1 patch (even a 20% nerf/buff to ANYTHING is a lot)
3. Auto-Proc traits aren't actually fixed. They are just less frequent. All it does is encourage players to simply not take them in PvP/WvW, which does the opposite for build diversity. They need to redesign the Auto-Proc traits altogether to fix this.

There is a forum-thread that is taking a vote, where on a scale of 1-5 how good ANet is at balancing. Most people, including myself, voted 3, which in this case meant ANet is good at identifying issues and general goes in the right direction, but often goes overboard and creates bigger issues. This should be a pretty good indicator that I am not the only one thinking this.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

I definitely understand the sentiment here and completely agree. However, other games to balance around that fact typically by making player-character's strong enough that they can't be 1-shotted by other play-characters unless explicitly designed to so, which usually comes at the cost of being very glassy themselves. Long story short, these skills are typically taken into account when balancing, but I agree sometimes it is necessary.

Ultimately, I'm glad ANet released these patch notes early to get feedback. Generally speaking, I think they are going in the right direction, but these are my concerns with the patch so far in a nutshell:

1. I think they are going a little crazy with skill-splitting (auto-attacks are now getting split which is just plain bizarre to me).
2. They are going a bit too far with the changes to healing/damaging skills in 1 patch (even a 20% nerf/buff to ANYTHING is a lot)
3. Auto-Proc traits aren't actually fixed. They are just less frequent. All it does is encourage players to simply not take them in PvP/WvW, which does the opposite for build diversity. They need to redesign the Auto-Proc traits altogether to fix this.

There is a forum-thread that is taking a vote, where on a scale of 1-5 how good ANet is at balancing. Most people, including myself, voted 3, which in this case meant ANet is good at identifying issues and general goes in the right direction, but often goes overboard and creates bigger issues. This should be a pretty good indicator that I am not the only one thinking this.

i really thing they are not even going far enough with skill-splitting. They should split everything and nerf everything to a level that was like pre-hot. There were no 1 shot build then and believe me if there were i have seen them and i lived in wvvw.

[Exitus.3297]

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:

I definitely understand the sentiment here and completely agree. However, other games to balance around that fact typically by making player-character's strong enough that they can't be 1-shotted by other play-characters unless explicitly designed to so, which usually comes at the cost of being very glassy themselves. Long story short, these skills are typically taken into account when balancing, but I agree sometimes it is necessary.

Ultimately, I'm glad ANet released these patch notes early to get feedback. Generally speaking, I think they are going in the right direction, but these are my concerns with the patch so far in a nutshell:

1. I think they are going a little crazy with skill-splitting (auto-attacks are now getting split which is just plain bizarre to me).
2. They are going a bit too far with the changes to healing/damaging skills in 1 patch (even a 20% nerf/buff to ANYTHING is a lot)
3. Auto-Proc traits aren't actually fixed. They are just less frequent. All it does is encourage players to simply not take them in PvP/WvW, which does the opposite for build diversity. They need to redesign the Auto-Proc traits altogether to fix this.

There is a forum-thread that is taking a vote, where on a scale of 1-5 how good ANet is at balancing. Most people, including myself, voted 3, which in this case meant ANet is good at identifying issues and general goes in the right direction, but often goes overboard and creates bigger issues. This should be a pretty good indicator that I am not the only one thinking this.

i really thing they are not even going far enough with skill-splitting. They should split everything and nerf everything to a level that was like pre-hot. There were no 1 shot build then and believe me if there were i have seen them and i lived in wvvw.

Prior to HoT, nothing was really split. Splitting was pretty much non-existent then, and yet it seems to me that the game was more balanced and less cancerous then... At least for the most part.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

Prior to HoT, nothing was really split. Splitting was pretty much non-existent then, and yet it seems to me that the game was more balanced and less cancerous then... At least for the most part.

it was becuase they focuessed on pvp back then now they are focessing on pve so splitting is needed.