Holosmith same destiny of scrapper?

[whoknocks.4935]

Due to the recent post about the next balance patch seems that holo will become pretty useless in both spvp and wvw.

Holosmith is just a power dps spec, bad at support and bad at condition.

They plan to nerf the damage for more than 50% overall, what's remain if you take away the damage on a spec that is only good at dishing out damage?

I hope anet things about the nerf before making holosmith a scrapper 2.0 post nerf.

The best support holo can provide is with the new inventions traitline and hard light arena for aoe cleanse every 45 seconds and that's all, photon forge doesn't bring any support or condition, just pure dps.

Making corona burst get stab only on hit will give holo the last strike to death.

[Ivantreil.3092]

No, i think it will get a mix of scrapper/condi engi threatment, if the nerfs send Holo to the Bronze tier, it will still be a spec with a use in raids, (unlike Scrapper), and then... A straight nerf to dps power in pve for obliterating his existence just like condi engi had it.

[rank eleven monk.9502]

People have to understand that along with their favorite 'not-op-at-all' class, everything else that is meta or generally very viable build, WILL GET NERFED.

[FyzE.3472]

@rank eleven monk.9502 said:People have to understand that along with their favorite 'not-op-at-all' class, everything else that is meta or generally very viable build, WILL GET NERFED.

Say that again to mesmers?

[will de grijze jager.6594]

@FyzE.3472 said:

@rank eleven monk.9502 said:People have to understand that along with their favorite 'not-op-at-all' class, everything else that is meta or generally very viable build, WILL GET NERFED.

Say that again to mesmers?ANET said that they will most another post for mesmer

[EpicName.4523]

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:

@FyzE.3472 said:

@"rank eleven monk.9502" said:People have to understand that along with their favorite 'not-op-at-all' class, everything else that is meta or generally very viable build, WILL GET NERFED.

Say that again to mesmers?ANET said that they will most another post for mesmer

Kinda funny indeed. When the mesmer gets nerfed or changed in some way, there is always something "additional" announced for the profession. In the end, mesmers are never handicapped or underpowered as if someone is constantly watching out for them not to fall out of grace. Other professions, though...

[will de grijze jager.6594]

Kinda funny indeed. When the mesmer gets nerfed or changed in some way, there is always something "additional" announced for the profession. In the end, mesmers are never handicapped or underpowered as if someone is constantly watching out for them not to fall out of grace. Other professions, though...

mesmer has been the same able to 1 shot people and the last patch made it even easier

[Vagrant.7206]

@"rank eleven monk.9502" said:People have to understand that along with their favorite 'not-op-at-all' class, everything else that is meta or generally very viable build, WILL GET NERFED.

The difference is the severity of the proposed nerfs. For a spec that is supposed to spell "glass cannon," heavy-handed nerfs like those proposed eliminate its purpose altogether.

[Vyrulisse.1246]

@rank eleven monk.9502 said:People have to understand that along with their favorite 'not-op-at-all' class, everything else that is meta or generally very viable build, WILL GET NERFED.

Uh what? Holosmith is all damage... if that gets nerfed please tell me what's left for it? I mean I know what you're saying in general and I'm just asking like what's left for Holosmith if they kill its damage as they plan to do

[Crinn.7864]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"rank eleven monk.9502" said:People have to understand that along with their favorite 'not-op-at-all' class, everything else that is meta or generally very viable build, WILL GET NERFED.

The difference is the severity of the proposed nerfs. For a spec that is supposed to spell "glass cannon," heavy-handed nerfs like those proposed eliminate its purpose altogether.

Holosmith does way more damage than other "glass cannons."

Also calling Holosmith a glass cannon is misleading to the extreme.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@"rank eleven monk.9502" said:People have to understand that along with their favorite 'not-op-at-all' class, everything else that is meta or generally very viable build, WILL GET NERFED.

Is that a good thing though?Is under-tuning everything the best way to go? If you look outside of GW2, the most successful pvp games usually are either very reliant on skill (PUBG, CS) or have very OP characters and rely on counter-play to provide balance (LoL, DOTA).Honestly, i don't want to go back to the place the game was in early 2015's tank meta. But what do i know, PvP in gw2 has been less and less fun for me, to the point that i haven't even done my placements this season.The balance team consistently misses the mark and with such lengthy intervals between patches i don't feel like playing to be frustrated because the game never gets proper balance.It's bad enough that people are even forced away from their favourite classes in PvE because balance consistently misses the mark. And yet people keep saying that "the game is balanced for PvP", which is ironic to the extreme.

[Zintrothen.1056]

You're losing a percentage of damage given by power, and it varies per attack. You still have tons of CCs, perma protection (and cleansing as a result), rifle will still hit hard (don't give me this AA is weak bullshit because a ranged AA should never hit harder than a melee one), Forge AA is keeping its 240 range, and you'll find a way to make Corona Burst hit both times with all your CCs. And let's remember that other professions are being nerfed too. SB is being nerfed, FB healing is being nerfed again, Druid is being slightly nerfed. It's the fact that other professions are keeping some of their insane damage that should worry you. Larcenous Strike is keeping its moronic, unblockable damage, phantasms are keeping their moronic damage (blockable at least), and Scourge will remain the AoE condi spamming machine. Holos will be fucking fine though. Everyone thinks necessary nerfs to their profession will result in a total gutting of viability. This happens every time, and it's never a change in numbers that change anything. It's always mechanics. You have the mechanics that'll allow you to remain viable. You will adapt to your nerfs and still be viable with enough skill.

[Vyrulisse.1246]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"rank eleven monk.9502" said:People have to understand that along with their favorite 'not-op-at-all' class, everything else that is meta or generally very viable build, WILL GET NERFED.

Is that a good thing though?Is under-tuning everything the best way to go? If you look outside of GW2, the most successful pvp games usually are either very reliant on skill (PUBG, CS) or have very OP characters and rely on counter-play to provide balance (LoL, DOTA).Honestly, i don't want to go back to the place the game was in early 2015's tank meta. But what do i know, PvP in gw2 has been less and less fun for me, to the point that i haven't even done my placements this season.The balance team consistently misses the mark and with such lengthy intervals between patches i don't feel like playing to be frustrated because the game never gets proper balance.It's bad enough that people are even forced away from their favourite classes in PvE because balance consistently misses the mark. And yet people keep saying that "the game is balanced for PvP", which is ironic to the extreme.

That's the biggest issue. A.net has fostered this idea that every balance patch has to be perfect because if it's not then the players know it'll be MONTHS before anything changes. They really need to be more agile and stop following this weird seasonal schedule for balance changes. When something comes up that is blatantly obvious isn't working they should fix it asap, not wait around for a big patch.

[pah.4931]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"rank eleven monk.9502" said:People have to understand that along with their favorite 'not-op-at-all' class, everything else that is meta or generally very viable build, WILL GET NERFED.

The difference is the severity of the proposed nerfs. For a spec that is supposed to spell "glass cannon," heavy-handed nerfs like those proposed eliminate its purpose altogether.

A "glass cannon" that automatically goes invulnerable for three seconds when taking enough damage and then can do it AGAIN actively, and can stealth AND has some of the best cc in the game... probably shouldn't even be allowed to have a glass cannon build... right?

[apharma.3741]

I mean, lets not forget that one of the reasons scrapper is dead is because the function gyro doesn't work more than once, it actually got some pretty interesting changes last patch but what's stopped me even trying it was the function gyro only working once without reloading the map, pretty crippling for any spec when your mechanic doesn't work.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Vyrulisse.1246 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"rank eleven monk.9502" said:People have to understand that along with their favorite 'not-op-at-all' class, everything else that is meta or generally very viable build, WILL GET NERFED.

Is that a good thing though?Is under-tuning everything the best way to go? If you look outside of GW2, the most successful pvp games usually are either very reliant on skill (PUBG, CS) or have very OP characters and rely on counter-play to provide balance (LoL, DOTA).Honestly, i don't want to go back to the place the game was in early 2015's tank meta. But what do i know, PvP in gw2 has been less and less fun for me, to the point that i haven't even done my placements this season.The balance team consistently misses the mark and with such lengthy intervals between patches i don't feel like playing to be frustrated because the game never gets proper balance.It's bad enough that people are even forced away from their favourite classes in PvE because balance consistently misses the mark. And yet people keep saying that "the game is balanced for PvP", which is ironic to the extreme.

That's the biggest issue. A.net has fostered this idea that every balance patch has to be perfect because if it's not then the players know it'll be MONTHS before anything changes. They really need to be more agile and stop following this weird seasonal schedule for balance changes. When something comes up that is blatantly obvious isn't working they should fix it asap, not wait around for a big patch.

Problem is they are rarely "perfect", usually far from it.They more often than not bounce classes from god-tier to trash with ease, and many times go about fixing issues through very roundabout ways that don't address the actual problems, and usually have consequences in other game modes.

Case in point, the recent scourge changes, did very little (from feedback i got) to change its PvP (and especially WvW) performance, but pretty much killed the class for PvE. All this because instead of addressing the mechanics of shades, they just nerfed the damage output (via direct damage nerfs, boon corruption amounts and cooldown nerfs), but the problem with shades is left intact (or was actually made worse in WvW with a lot of people complaining of lag spikes when too many scourges gather up).

But that's not it. Because of a OP interaction on WvW Herald was made useless in PvE going from meta in Raids to useless everywhere. This also cemented the mirror comp in Raids which reduced build variety for a long time in Raids.

The balance team simply shows an inability to foresee the consequences of their changes, and if you add the Elite spec development to that pool, then it just becomes ridiculous how badly they miss the marks.

What the game needs is something like League's PBE client. A special client (restricted to PvP maybe) that allows players to volunteer to test upcoming balance changes and provide feedback and metrics to the developers.

[zealex.9410]

@EpicName.4523 said:

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:

@FyzE.3472 said:

@"rank eleven monk.9502" said:People have to understand that along with their favorite 'not-op-at-all' class, everything else that is meta or generally very viable build, WILL GET NERFED.

Say that again to mesmers?ANET said that they will most another post for mesmer

Kinda funny indeed. When the mesmer gets nerfed or changed in some way, there is always something "additional" announced for the profession. In the end, mesmers are never handicapped or underpowered as if someone is constantly watching out for them not to fall out of grace. Other professions, though...

4sec exaustion on every dodge. Surelly that wont hurt them much at all. lol

[zealex.9410]

@Vyrulisse.1246 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"rank eleven monk.9502" said:People have to understand that along with their favorite 'not-op-at-all' class, everything else that is meta or generally very viable build, WILL GET NERFED.

Is that a good thing though?Is under-tuning everything the best way to go? If you look outside of GW2, the most successful pvp games usually are either very reliant on skill (PUBG, CS) or have very OP characters and rely on counter-play to provide balance (LoL, DOTA).Honestly, i don't want to go back to the place the game was in early 2015's tank meta. But what do i know, PvP in gw2 has been less and less fun for me, to the point that i haven't even done my placements this season.The balance team consistently misses the mark and with such lengthy intervals between patches i don't feel like playing to be frustrated because the game never gets proper balance.It's bad enough that people are even forced away from their favourite classes in PvE because balance consistently misses the mark. And yet people keep saying that "the game is balanced for PvP", which is ironic to the extreme.

That's the biggest issue. A.net has fostered this idea that every balance patch has to be perfect because if it's not then the players know it'll be MONTHS before anything changes. They really need to be more agile and stop following this weird seasonal schedule for balance changes. When something comes up that is blatantly obvious isn't working they should fix it asap, not wait around for a big patch.

There were 3 or more balance patches since pof came out and we already got word on the new upcomming balance patch.

[apharma.3741]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vyrulisse.1246 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"rank eleven monk.9502" said:People have to understand that along with their favorite 'not-op-at-all' class, everything else that is meta or generally very viable build, WILL GET NERFED.

Is that a good thing though?Is under-tuning everything the best way to go? If you look outside of GW2, the most successful pvp games usually are either very reliant on skill (PUBG, CS) or have very OP characters and rely on counter-play to provide balance (LoL, DOTA).Honestly, i don't want to go back to the place the game was in early 2015's tank meta. But what do i know, PvP in gw2 has been less and less fun for me, to the point that i haven't even done my placements this season.The balance team consistently misses the mark and with such lengthy intervals between patches i don't feel like playing to be frustrated because the game never gets proper balance.It's bad enough that people are even forced away from their favourite classes in PvE because balance consistently misses the mark. And yet people keep saying that "the game is balanced for PvP", which is ironic to the extreme.

That's the biggest issue. A.net has fostered this idea that every balance patch has to be perfect because if it's not then the players know it'll be MONTHS before anything changes. They really need to be more agile and stop following this weird seasonal schedule for balance changes. When something comes up that is blatantly obvious isn't working they should fix it asap, not wait around for a big patch.

There were 3 or more balance patches since pof came out and we already got word on the new upcomming balance patch.

Yeah thankfully ANet has moved away from this idea of preserving the sanctity of seasonal balance, I'd rather have 12 patches a year than 5 and the joke of a PvP season to be stable while WvW gets months of being horrible.

[zealex.9410]

@apharma.3741 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vyrulisse.1246 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"rank eleven monk.9502" said:People have to understand that along with their favorite 'not-op-at-all' class, everything else that is meta or generally very viable build, WILL GET NERFED.

Is that a good thing though?Is under-tuning everything the best way to go? If you look outside of GW2, the most successful pvp games usually are either very reliant on skill (PUBG, CS) or have very OP characters and rely on counter-play to provide balance (LoL, DOTA).Honestly, i don't want to go back to the place the game was in early 2015's tank meta. But what do i know, PvP in gw2 has been less and less fun for me, to the point that i haven't even done my placements this season.The balance team consistently misses the mark and with such lengthy intervals between patches i don't feel like playing to be frustrated because the game never gets proper balance.It's bad enough that people are even forced away from their favourite classes in PvE because balance consistently misses the mark. And yet people keep saying that "the game is balanced for PvP", which is ironic to the extreme.

That's the biggest issue. A.net has fostered this idea that every balance patch has to be perfect because if it's not then the players know it'll be MONTHS before anything changes. They really need to be more agile and stop following this weird seasonal schedule for balance changes. When something comes up that is blatantly obvious isn't working they should fix it asap, not wait around for a big patch.

There were 3 or more balance patches since pof came out and we already got word on the new upcomming balance patch.

Yeah thankfully ANet has moved away from this idea of preserving the sanctity of seasonal balance, I'd rather have 12 patches a year than 5 and the joke of a PvP season to be stable while WvW gets months of being horrible.

And they talk about them in advance so we ca vive early feedback which is always a plus.

[apharma.3741]

@zealex.9410 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vyrulisse.1246 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"rank eleven monk.9502" said:People have to understand that along with their favorite 'not-op-at-all' class, everything else that is meta or generally very viable build, WILL GET NERFED.

Is that a good thing though?Is under-tuning everything the best way to go? If you look outside of GW2, the most successful pvp games usually are either very reliant on skill (PUBG, CS) or have very OP characters and rely on counter-play to provide balance (LoL, DOTA).Honestly, i don't want to go back to the place the game was in early 2015's tank meta. But what do i know, PvP in gw2 has been less and less fun for me, to the point that i haven't even done my placements this season.The balance team consistently misses the mark and with such lengthy intervals between patches i don't feel like playing to be frustrated because the game never gets proper balance.It's bad enough that people are even forced away from their favourite classes in PvE because balance consistently misses the mark. And yet people keep saying that "the game is balanced for PvP", which is ironic to the extreme.

That's the biggest issue. A.net has fostered this idea that every balance patch has to be perfect because if it's not then the players know it'll be MONTHS before anything changes. They really need to be more agile and stop following this weird seasonal schedule for balance changes. When something comes up that is blatantly obvious isn't working they should fix it asap, not wait around for a big patch.

There were 3 or more balance patches since pof came out and we already got word on the new upcomming balance patch.

Yeah thankfully ANet has moved away from this idea of preserving the sanctity of seasonal balance, I'd rather have 12 patches a year than 5 and the joke of a PvP season to be stable while WvW gets months of being horrible.

And they talk about them in advance so we ca vive early feedback which is always a plus.

Also generates a bit of hype so people have a reason to care about the game again and look at it again. We used to have this then ANet went silent with the loss of Grouch, it's good to have a little buzz about balance changes, makes you stay interested imo.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"rank eleven monk.9502" said:People have to understand that along with their favorite 'not-op-at-all' class, everything else that is meta or generally very viable build, WILL GET NERFED.

The difference is the severity of the proposed nerfs. For a spec that is supposed to spell "glass cannon," heavy-handed nerfs like those proposed eliminate its purpose altogether.

Holosmith does way more damage than other "glass cannons."

Also calling Holosmith a glass cannon is misleading to the extreme.

In what way is it misleading?

And it also doesn't do more damage than other glass cannons in a short period. As far as burstiness goes, thief and mesmer are still more bursty. Even a one-shot glass cannon weaver can burst harder (with significantly fewer tells). The difference is that holo can maintain damage for longer, which is something that could easily be adjusted by modifying the heat values for different skills (ya'know, like anybody who understands how the spec plays might balance it).

Instead, they want to nerf the damage directly, which might make the spec worthless and doesn't actually address the core of the issue -- the length at which a holo can maintain their burst. If holo mode lasted half as long, I can bet you it wouldn't be seen as big of an issue.

@pah.4931 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"rank eleven monk.9502" said:People have to understand that along with their favorite 'not-op-at-all' class, everything else that is meta or generally very viable build, WILL GET NERFED.

The difference is the severity of the proposed nerfs. For a spec that is supposed to spell "glass cannon," heavy-handed nerfs like those proposed eliminate its purpose altogether.

A "glass cannon" that automatically goes invulnerable for three seconds when taking enough damage and then can do it AGAIN actively, and can stealth AND has some of the best cc in the game... probably shouldn't even be allowed to have a glass cannon build... right?

The passive invuln you refer to only defends the engineer in the sense that they can't be bursted down quite so easily by another power build (condi will still murder you). And ArenaNet is doing something about that -- a CD nerf which I actually agree with. I think they should also lower the duration of the passive invuln to 2 seconds as well.

As for the active invuln... that I'm ok with, because engineers really can't do much with that other than stop a burst while it's happening or reposition (and stomp or rez). The active invuln is significantly more skillful, because unlike signet of stone or endure pain, it's extremely defensive and very little can be done while in that mode.

With exception for overcharged shot, which is a core skill btw, the rest of the CC has a very obvious tell. Holographic Shockwave and Prime Light Beam are some of the most obvious CC's in the game (unlike almost every other class's CC's). If you don't see them coming, you really aren't paying attention. You can easily stunbreak/invuln/block them as soon as you see them, or dodge.

[Brandon.8294]

Good riddance, I won't be missing them.

[pah.4931]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"rank eleven monk.9502" said:People have to understand that along with their favorite 'not-op-at-all' class, everything else that is meta or generally very viable build, WILL GET NERFED.

The difference is the severity of the proposed nerfs. For a spec that is supposed to spell "glass cannon," heavy-handed nerfs like those proposed eliminate its purpose altogether.

Holosmith does way more damage than other "glass cannons."

Also calling Holosmith a glass cannon is misleading to the extreme.

In what way is it misleading?

And it also doesn't do more damage than other glass cannons in a short period. As far as burstiness goes, thief and mesmer are still more bursty. Even a one-shot glass cannon weaver can burst harder (with significantly fewer tells). The difference is that holo can maintain damage for longer, which is something that could easily be adjusted by modifying the heat values for different skills (ya'know, like anybody who understands how the spec plays might balance it).

Instead, they want to nerf the damage directly, which might make the spec worthless and doesn't actually address the core of the issue -- the length at which a holo can maintain their burst. If holo mode lasted half as long, I can bet you it wouldn't be seen as big of an issue.

@pah.4931 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"rank eleven monk.9502" said:People have to understand that along with their favorite 'not-op-at-all' class, everything else that is meta or generally very viable build, WILL GET NERFED.

The difference is the severity of the proposed nerfs. For a spec that is supposed to spell "glass cannon," heavy-handed nerfs like those proposed eliminate its purpose altogether.

A "glass cannon" that automatically goes invulnerable for three seconds when taking enough damage and then can do it AGAIN actively, and can stealth AND has some of the best cc in the game... probably shouldn't even be allowed to have a glass cannon build... right?

The passive invuln you refer to only defends the engineer in the sense that they can't be bursted down quite so easily by another power build (condi will still murder you). And ArenaNet is doing something about that -- a CD nerf which I actually agree with. I think they should also lower the duration of the passive invuln to 2 seconds as well.

As for the active invuln... that I'm ok with, because engineers really can't do much with that other than stop a burst while it's happening or reposition (and stomp or rez). The active invuln is significantly more skillful, because unlike signet of stone or endure pain, it's extremely defensive and very little can be done while in that mode.

With exception for overcharged shot, which is a core skill btw, the rest of the CC has a very obvious tell. Holographic Shockwave and Prime Light Beam are some of the most obvious CC's in the game (unlike almost every other class's CC's). If you don't see them coming, you really aren't paying attention. You can easily stunbreak/invuln/block them as soon as you see them, or dodge.

The fact that they have a tell doesn't negate the fact that they exist, and on one of the strongest Power Damage professions in the game (that has access to stealth). I don't really think you can use the term "glass cannon" on a profession like that.

Yes, holos die fast, but they have PLENTY of tools to mitigate or avoid damage -- with great CC, great mobility, stealth, passive invuln, tons of access to stab. I don't think y'all should be nerfed into the ground, but you also do not deserve the highest amount of damage (or top tier, I should say).

I mean ... Holos do more raw damage than a Power Reaper and reapers have almost no mobility, less CC, very crappy access to stab, almost no invulnerability, and no stealth (and you want to talk about telegraphed abilities that are easy to dodge???).

[Lighter.5631]

wheres the post?