'Bug in the System' Speculations

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@CETheLucid.3964 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:The italicized is entirely false. You seem to be replacing "Ascalon" with "the whole of charr territories". Charr territories in whole is indeed large - nearly the size of all Elona, in fact, if not larger - but Ascalon (the Iron Legion territories) itself is exactly what we see in GW2. The area nestled between the Shiverpeak Mountains and Blazeridge Mountains - the two mountain ranges creating a hook-like shape cradling Ascalon in.

For the purpose of what I've stated "Ascalon" and "the whole of charr territories" are the same thing. It's not false in that I'm trying to mislead anyone. Most people would get that I'm referencing the charr territories when I say "Ascalon". If you want to play semantics on that, sure. That's correct. But you're making much ado about what I said and then essentially confirmed what I was getting at. I feel like we're talking past each other and I don't understand why.

It's not semantics- I didn't get that you were referencing everything the charr hold, and even the charr never use "Ascalon" to mean all of their territories. It's one co-equal territory among three. It's like using "New England" to mean the entire U.S., or "Western Europe" to mean all of Europe, terms that are specifically used to distinguish parts of the whole from the whole.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Except for when they pushed into the Crystal Desert which borders Dzalana, at least two times over (by the Primeval Dynasty and by Turai Ossa - assuming, of course, that the Seekers were not Elonians), in order to try to establish colonies in there.

Yeah, it didn't work out. They all pretty much died in the Crystal Desert. The best Vabbi managed was to hold the line at their border from all the hostile baddies coming out from there before the brand made everything even worse.

To be fair, they had some pretty strong successes in there- the Primeval Dynasty never settled the desert, but they made regular funeral processions to the far end for more than four hundred years, and while Ossa's colony couldn't have made it more than a decade or two, in that time they made a few major settlements.

That said, I agree with you that success in the desert means nothing for Dzalana. There's no mention of the Primeval Dynasty expanding in that direction, and Turai explicitly angled away from it, taking the straight route through the Desolation. Even if they had built colonies in the desert that survived a thousand years, it wouldn't have automatically meant that they'd have any better idea about what was going on in Dzalana than the modern-day Vabbians. A hypothetical Ash Legion homeland beyond Dzalana's northeastern edge would only be more remote.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@CETheLucid.3964 said:For the purpose of what I've stated "Ascalon" and "the whole of charr territories" are the same thing. It's not false in that I'm trying to mislead anyone. Most people would get that I'm referencing the charr territories when I say "Ascalon". If you want to play semantics on that, sure. That's correct. But you're making much ado about what I said and then essentially confirmed what I was getting at. I feel like we're talking past each other and I don't understand why.

As Aaron says, they are not equivilant. Ascalon is always referenced as just the Iron Legion territories. In addition to Aaron's examples, it'd be like referring to England as the whole of UK - ignoring the existence of Scotland, Wales, and Ireland (or technically, Northern Ireland). They simply are not the same, and there's not a single dialogue in either game that ever implies Ascalon is the whole of charr territories (which doesn't ever get referenced with a name, sadly).

This isn't a case of "everyone often refers to the United States of America as just America, without differentiating it from North/South America".

@CETheLucid.3964 said:We don't have any indication that they did or if any of this speculation is even close to the mark. But for the sake of argument suppose the Ash Legion did share a border with Dzalana? The humans never really went into it. It's also probably larger than we can see and there's no evidence the Ash Legion charr pushed into it either. So it's completely possible they never ran into each other with a potentially massive no-mans land territory separating them, later made even worse with Kralkatorrik's flight south.

For the charr to push from the potential Ash Legion Homelands here, they'd have had to cross the whole of Dzalana, the inhospitable Crystal Desert, probably get through that mountain pass at the tail end there, and island hop to Orr. It wouldn't make practical sense when they could just cross through the territory they control and neutral norn lands. Which is what they did. Also of note Ash wasn't in control of it's destiny back then, the Flame Legion was the top dog and called the shots.

The bold is exactly the issue with the claim. The charr are full out expansionists prior to the rebellion Kalla Scorchrazor ended. If they bordered Dzalana, they would have attempted to go through. And as far as we know, the only thing that kept humans out were lack of interest in expanding into harpy and heket filled canyons - such things would be fairly unlikely to stop the charr legions.

And then there's the fact that they never made tactical use of this territory in the war against humanity either. Whether it was to pincer assault Ascalon (if they were north / northeast of Dzalana, they would not need to go through Dzalana or the desert to reach the mountains south of Ascalon), or to bypass Ascalon to reach Orr. Both could have been done, but wasn't. The only logical explanation would be "they didn't have this territory". So IF the Ash legion now controls this land, it was conquered in the past 250 years, but even then it seems unlikely when we have zero indication of such beyond an ambiguous dialogue line that only tells us Ash Legion are closer to Ebonhawke than the Black Citadel.

As to "they have had to cross the whole of Dzalana, the inhospitable Crystal Desert" - you said north of Dzalana. Your sentence here would push them as south of Dzalana, which is Vabbi. And "It wouldn't make practical sense when they could just cross through the territory they control" what territoy would they control that makes it easier than going through the human nation of Ascalon? I think you're getting your geography and timelines messed up. When the charr assaulted Orr, it was 1070/1071 AE - the Searing had just occurred, and the charr were battering against the Great Northern Wall. They had sent a blitzkrieg unit through the human kingdom of Ascalon in order to reach Orr. This meant charging through enemy territory, through a small mountain pass, skirting the edge of the Crystal Desert, and island hopping into Orr - as you put the last bit.

Alternatively, if they controlled the region north of Dzalana, as you had prior suggested (and not the southern lands of Dzalana aka Vabbi you now suggest, apparently?), then they could simply skirt the mountain range, skirt the Crystal Desert, and island hop into Orr. Without need of causing the Searing before leaving.

@CETheLucid.3964 said:Yeah, Flame Legion weren't the nicest guys around. Not that the charr were ever humanities biggest fans what with pushing an entire legion out of it's territory, but the Flame Legion's 'gods' weren't exactly the greatest thing to happen to the charr either. That's in the past though. We're all buddy/buddy now. More or less. Charr and humans are pretty good at killing stuff together when they're not killing each other.

And you completely ignore the fact that the titans ordered the charr to assault every human nation. Yet if they were so close to Elona already, able to skirt around the eastern side of the Crystal Desert and straight into Vabbi, why didn't they?

[Fenom.9457]

East of the Blazeridge is confirmed to be Blood Legion territories - it is where the Blood Citadel, capital of the Blood Legion Homelands, lies.

This makes no sense, the lands NORTH are literally called blood legion homelands

[CETheLucid.3964]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:This isn't a case of "everyone often refers to the United States of America as just America, without differentiating it from North/South America".

We'll agree to disagree on that. The distinction is in semantics. I'm sorry if it wasn't clear what I was getting at. You two seemed to have figured it out regardless to make this grand argument of it at any rate.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The bold is exactly the issue with the claim. The charr are full out expansionists prior to the rebellion Kalla Scorchrazor ended. If they bordered Dzalana, they would have attempted to go through. And as far as we know, the only thing that kept humans out were lack of interest in expanding into harpy and heket filled canyons - such things would be fairly unlikely to stop the charr legions.

And then there's the fact that they never made tactical use of this territory in the war against humanity either. Whether it was to pincer assault Ascalon (if they were north / northeast of Dzalana, they would not need to go through Dzalana or the desert to reach the mountains south of Ascalon), or to bypass Ascalon to reach Orr. Both could have been done, but wasn't. The only logical explanation would be "they didn't have this territory". So IF the Ash legion now controls this land, it was conquered in the past 250 years, but even then it seems unlikely when we have zero indication of such beyond an ambiguous dialogue line that only tells us Ash Legion are closer to Ebonhawke than the Black Citadel.

Yes the Ash Legion could have done this and not do that. It's all speculation. The Flame Legion under the titans were expansionists. Ash, Blood, and Iron were kind of riding shotgun at this time. The Ash Legion Homelands could encompass any region to the north and south of Dzalana without actually pushing into it. Likewise Dzalana could also be very large on the side of it we can't really see.

It's not unreasonable to think the Ash Legion didn't really care about pushing into Dzalana when it could be a hellscape of more desert with bonus harpies and hylek when the main goal of the charr at the time was dealing with the human occupation of Ascalon and then expanding after the human kingdoms it knew about. No indication the charr knew anything of Elona or Cantha at the time. Maybe if the invasion was allowed to play to the end, the titans would keep expanding and destroy the world but we cut it short.

From a 4th wall perspective at this point Cantha and Elona weren't even a thing. If we're going to add to the lore in an official capacity, that'll have to be established now-ish. It just isn't there in the past.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:And you completely ignore the fact that the titans ordered the charr to assault every human nation.

I really didn't though. I suppose I'm sorry if I didn't elaborate on it to your liking? But it certainly wasn't the focus of "what if Ash Legion Homeland is over here". It's clear based on the legendary weapon we're getting the charr are probably going to play some role in the new living story. I'm not saying "yes for sure it's over here", I'm saying "maybe it's over here". I get we don't agree on that and that's fine.

In that regard the past conflict with humanity isn't something I'm focusing on to make that argument. You have that covered. To be fair maybe that'll be a thing about it? Who can say? We'll find out tomorrow.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Fenom.9457" said:East of the Blazeridge is confirmed to be Blood Legion territories - it is where the Blood Citadel, capital of the Blood Legion Homelands, lies.

This makes no sense, the lands NORTH are literally called blood legion homelands

The two are not mutually exclusive. Both areas are Blood Legion territory (calling them homelands though is a bit of a misnomer since charr originate east of the Blazeridge per The Ecology of the Charr - the existence of Kathandrax in GW1 actually hints that before the charr conquered those lands, dwarves lived there).

@"CETheLucid.3964" said:Yes the Ash Legion could have done this and not do that. It's all speculation. The Flame Legion under the titans were expansionists. Ash, Blood, and Iron were kind of riding shotgun at this time. The Ash Legion Homelands could encompass any region to the north and south of Dzalana without actually pushing into it. Likewise Dzalana could also be very large on the side of it we can't really see.

The charr were always expansionists. Particularly prior to 100 BE, when they were led by the Khan-Ur and spread from east of the Blazeridge into what's now dubbed Blood Legion Homelands on the world map, andi nto what is now called Ascalon. They ceased their expansions with the Khan-Ur's death and the war with Ascalon - seemingly under the mentality of "we cannot get more land before we take back what we had lost", given that they never bothered marching into the Shiverpeaks instead of fighting Ascalon.

Under the titans, charr were less expanionist (they never even bothered to occupy Krytan and Orr, the armies sent there was too small), but were rather more of genocidists.

And again, bordering south of Dzalana is Vabbi. The Ash Legion territories cannot be in Vabbi. And we can see on the world map just how big it is.

@"CETheLucid.3964" said:It's not unreasonable to think the Ash Legion didn't really care about pushing into Dzalana when it could be a hellscape of more desert with bonus harpies and hylek when the main goal of the charr at the time was dealing with the human occupation of Ascalon and then expanding after the human kingdoms it knew about. No indication the charr knew anything of Elona or Cantha at the time. Maybe if the invasion was allowed to play to the end, the titans would keep expanding and destroy the world but we cut it short.

We didn't cut anything about the charr invasion short, and nothing would have stopped the charr from sending a third simultaneous company of soldiers to perform a Searing in Vabbi if they were so close. If they were so close, then they surely would have known about Elona. Even if all they knew was "there seems to be humans in that direction."

@"CETheLucid.3964" said:From a 4th wall perspective at this point Cantha and Elona weren't even a thing. If we're going to add to the lore in an official capacity, that'll have to be established now-ish. It just isn't there in the past.

Actually, Cantha and Elona were definitely part of the lore. The entire Crystal Desert in GW1 was all about the "people who come from Elona to the south/southeast" - from Elona Reach to Turai Ossa and all his followers. And there was this NPC who was in prophecies, to give a little bit of lore on Cantha.

Granted that Cantha and Elona were but names of distant human nations during the development of Prophecies, with Elona having more lore to them, but they did exist. They even had the name "Vabbi" down, albeit with zero context beyond Joko's title of Scourge of Vabbi.

"My name was Turai Ossa. I was the Champion of Elona, the protector and leader of my people. At the Battle of Jahai, I single-handedly defeated Palawa Joko, the scourge of Vabbi. It was I who led the Elonians to the Crystal Desert."

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ghostly_Hero_(PvE)

@"CETheLucid.3964" said:I really didn't though. I suppose I'm sorry if I didn't elaborate on it to your liking? But it certainly wasn't the focus of "what if Ash Legion Homeland is over here". It's clear based on the legendary weapon we're getting the charr are probably going to play some role in the new living story. I'm not saying "yes for sure it's over here", I'm saying "maybe it's over here". I get we don't agree on that and that's fine.

In that regard the past conflict with humanity isn't something I'm focusing on to make that argument. You have that covered. To be fair maybe that'll be a thing about it? Who can say? We'll find out tomorrow.

The past conflict actually is something to reflect upon. Unless that land only recently became Ash Legion territory, it would be creating massive inconsistencies and loopholes due to those past conflicts - which is my entire point.

As for the legendary weapon making it "clear" that there's charr involvement - three things.

1. We've had legendaries without direct ties to the story or local before (The Binding of Ipos being a prime example - there's no relation between that and the events of Daybreak). And those that do often have strenuous ties at best (The HMS Divinity - what relation was there between that and Head of the Snake? The name Divinity with the city Divinity's Reach, and a lake that got drained? or Eureka, ties to Rising Flames being... fire theme and scientific/asuranific names?).
2. Charr involvement doesn't mean charr national proximity. The portals could be enough to give such a connection.
3. Leak information tells us
   that the map is Dajkah Isles, which is plenty far away from any hypothetical Ash Legion territory, let alone Ascalon or Blood Legion territory.

Besides, even if the weapon of the sole leader of the unified charr were presented here, how would that hold relevance specifically to Ash Legion territory locations? The Khan-Ur died before Ash Legion even existed... Maybe I'm misunderstanding the apparent leap of connections.

[CETheLucid.3964]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:The Khan-Ur died before Ash Legion even existed... Maybe I'm misunderstanding the apparent leap of connections.

@CETheLucid.3964 said:Hope we end up in the Ash Legion homelands south of Ebonhawke. :+1:

A little bit.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@CETheLucid.3964 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:The Khan-Ur died before Ash Legion even existed... Maybe I'm misunderstanding the apparent leap of connections.

@CETheLucid.3964 said:Hope we end up in the Ash Legion homelands south of Ebonhawke. :+1:

A little bit.

Still not seeing how Elonians, Inquest facility, and all that get negated because apparent Claw of Khan-Ur leads to "hope we go to Ash Legion territory in a location that honestly doesn't make any sense in lore".

[CETheLucid.3964]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@CETheLucid.3964 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:The Khan-Ur died before Ash Legion even existed... Maybe I'm misunderstanding the apparent leap of connections.

@CETheLucid.3964 said:Hope we end up in the Ash Legion homelands south of Ebonhawke. :+1:

A little bit.

Still not seeing how Elonians, Inquest facility, and all that get negated because apparent Claw of Khan-Ur leads to "hope we go to Ash Legion territory in a location that honestly doesn't make any sense in lore".

I just want the lore to elaborate on the Ash Legion Homelands as an excuse to return to Ascalon with a new map because I fancy it. My guesses as to it's actual location are only that, based on some vague dialogue I remember from maybe 3 years ago? It's just a stab in the dark. I've freely admited that several times so I don't see why you're arguing this so fiercely when it's literally a "what if" and "i hope this thing happens".

While this discussion has had it's merits and insights and you're a fantastic lore keeper and I don't want to step on your toes in that regard because you're spot on with most of it that you don't extrapolate on for the sake of argument, I'm essentially just saying it would be cool to go back to Ascalon because Ascalon is awesome and we can elaborate on the Ash Legion which really lacks in lore compared to Iron and Blood. Can we agree on that much? Maybe visit a non-Iron homeland since we haven't done that since GW1 and Ash could feasibly be within the strike zone fo where the story is leading us.

Ash Legion territory isn't officially established. Your hope for it is as good as mine.

[Tom Gore.4035]

I want to see mountains, Frodo. Mountains!

The Shiverpeaks are IMO the prettiest areas in the game, especially Lornar's Pass and Timberline Falls.

So we should definitely explore the Deldrimor Front next.

That or a proper wooded region. The "forests" in the game are a joke.

[Iron.4372]

@"Tom Gore.4035" said:I want to see mountains, Frodo. Mountains!

The Shiverpeaks are IMO the prettiest areas in the game, especially Lornar's Pass and Timberline Falls.

So we should definitely explore the Deldrimor Front next.

That or a proper wooded region. The "forests" in the game are a joke.

Hmmm, one place coming to my head is Bitterfrost Frontier forest, it was cool :)

I would love to see Drakkar's lake and Frostmaw Burrow Dungeon from Guild Wars 1 - it was the best dungeon ever! :)

[Fenom.9457]

@"Tom Gore.4035" said:I want to see mountains, Frodo. Mountains!

The Shiverpeaks are IMO the prettiest areas in the game, especially Lornar's Pass and Timberline Falls.

So we should definitely explore the Deldrimor Front next.

That or a proper wooded region. The "forests" in the game are a joke.

Woodland Cascades

[draxynnic.3719]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Manimarco Devil.1790" said:Joko was one of the more intelligent undead who ventured out instead of thinking in a more limited undead manner (wander around in circles) . He utilized his kin's powers to release the Scarab Plague and decimate Elona so he could begin his rise.

While I once advocated the idea that Joko had origins with the Scarab Plague, let's be honest. Could someone as egotistical, narcissistic, and power hungry as Joko remain silent for the 300 year gap we see between the beginning of the Scarab Plague and when he's first mentioned in all of history? Especially if the Scarab Plague was so he could "begin his rise"?

He could if his plans misfired sufficiently that he needed time to develop new plans. He might have expected Elona to be crippled more than it was (Admun Kolos seemed to take control of mainland Elona pretty soon after the Scarab Plague, while Joko may have been expecting a leaderless Elona to be easy pickings, or might even have expected the Plague to reach the mainland) - this might have required him to take the time to build up a larger army than he had thought he needed while hiding out in the Desolation. It's also possible someone could have smacked him down and it didn't reach the history books - heck, it's possible that the Order of Whispers weren't the first to bind him.

[CETheLucid.3964]

So. Still working on finishing the newest LS, but as far as I've gotten so far:

-Hoping for Ash Legion development--Get a new break away sect of Flame Legion that aren't insane-

Everything went better than expected. This is great. Now we can kill off the crazy Flame Legion without losing a charr legion. :naughty:Olmakhan's can inherit the mantle. :cookie:

I'm guessing they probably got away from the Flame Legion waaaay back during their march to Orr. Very cool development. Didn't see such a thing coming. It's interesting how personable and family-oriented they became, very different from legion life, much less like the Flame Legion they come from. But little things like their talent with elemental effigies hints at their origin.

This is getting good, I gotta wrap this up!

 

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@CETheLucid.3964 said:So. Still working on finishing the newest LS, but as far as I've gotten so far:

-Hoping for Ash Legion development--Get a new break away sect of Flame Legion that aren't insane-

Everything went better than expected. This is great. Now we can kill off the crazy Flame Legion without losing a charr legion. :naughty:Olmakhan's can inherit the mantle. :cookie:

I'm guessing they probably got away from the Flame Legion waaaay back during their march to Orr. Very cool development. Didn't see such a thing coming. It's interesting how personable and family-oriented they became, very different from legion life, much less like the Flame Legion they come from. But little things like their talent with elemental effigies hints at their origin.

This is getting good, I gotta wrap this up!

 

I'll keep this under a spoiler, in case you'd prefer to find it yourself, but:

They split during the early stages of Kalla's rebellion. Basically, they saw her as an inspiration,but since they started as an anti-war sect they scampered off instead of joining the uprising.

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@CETheLucid.3964 said:So. Still working on finishing the newest LS, but as far as I've gotten so far:

-Hoping for Ash Legion development--Get a new break away sect of Flame Legion that aren't insane-

Everything went better than expected. This is great. Now we can kill off the crazy Flame Legion without losing a charr legion. :naughty:Olmakhan's can inherit the mantle. :cookie:

I'm guessing they probably got away from the Flame Legion waaaay back during their march to Orr. Very cool development. Didn't see such a thing coming. It's interesting how personable and family-oriented they became, very different from legion life, much less like the Flame Legion they come from. But little things like their talent with elemental effigies hints at their origin.

This is getting good, I gotta wrap this up!

 

To expand on Aaron:

 

They're not solely from the Flame Legion, but from all four legions. Originally it was a single warband, but as they marched through the western edge of Ascalon / eastern edge of the Shiverpeaks, they picked up more warbands and become a larger people. There's scrolls detailing this in the Lorekeeper's shed on the cliffs in northwestern Atholma.

 

[CETheLucid.3964]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@CETheLucid.3964 said:So. Still working on finishing the newest LS, but as far as I've gotten so far:

-Hoping for Ash Legion development--Get a new break away sect of Flame Legion that aren't insane-

Everything went better than expected. This is great. Now we can kill off the crazy Flame Legion without losing a charr legion. :naughty:Olmakhan's can inherit the mantle. :cookie:

I'm guessing they probably got away from the Flame Legion waaaay back during their march to Orr. Very cool development. Didn't see such a thing coming. It's interesting how personable and family-oriented they became, very different from legion life, much less like the Flame Legion they come from. But little things like their talent with elemental effigies hints at their origin.

This is getting good, I gotta wrap this up!

 

I'll keep this under a spoiler, in case you'd prefer to find it yourself, but:

They split during the early stages of Kalla's rebellion. Basically, they saw her as an inspiration,but since they started as an anti-war sect they scampered off instead of joining the uprising.

 

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@CETheLucid.3964 said:So. Still working on finishing the newest LS, but as far as I've gotten so far:

-Hoping for Ash Legion development--Get a new break away sect of Flame Legion that aren't insane-

Everything went better than expected. This is great. Now we can kill off the crazy Flame Legion without losing a charr legion. :naughty:Olmakhan's can inherit the mantle. :cookie:

I'm guessing they probably got away from the Flame Legion waaaay back during their march to Orr. Very cool development. Didn't see such a thing coming. It's interesting how personable and family-oriented they became, very different from legion life, much less like the Flame Legion they come from. But little things like their talent with elemental effigies hints at their origin.

This is getting good, I gotta wrap this up!

 

To expand on Aaron:

 

They're not solely from the Flame Legion, but from all four legions. Originally it was a single warband, but as they marched through the western edge of Ascalon / eastern edge of the Shiverpeaks, they picked up more warbands and become a larger people. There's scrolls detailing this in the Lorekeeper's shed on the cliffs in northwestern Atholma.

 

Just finished up the new LS, and I got to see what you two were talking about. Great stuff. I also really appreciate the spoiler tags. Thank you. It was nice to experience that for myself.

 

I still say Olmakhan's can be the rightful inheritors of a theoretical Flame Legion cleansing. But at the same time I'm not sure how the rest of the charr legions are going to react to the Olmakhan's. They're completely left-field from any established legion order except maybe the Flame Legion who also favors magic and the arcane, but even they're structured militarily. Do you think the High Legions will attempt contact? Will Rox report about them? She seems quite enamored with them.

I'm still taking it all in.

It was also cool to see Palawa Joko in person again. Barring any switchero shenanigans, I get the impression Joko has just grown into a darker character. Which is kinda sad. Understandable I suppose, but eh. I grew up with GW1 Joko. Saturday morning cartoon tier villain that sassed us across the desert in wurms and hooked us up with cool ancient armor. He was affable and kinda endearing in a weird way. Sort of like Mad King Thorn. Dudes absolutely bonkers to the point it's silly. It's weird. I'm weird. I sorta don't want to end up killing him. lol

 

[draxynnic.3719]

Personally, I'm inclined to think that Palawa was always intended to be the nasty piece of work we're seeing now.

His 'affable' behaviour in Nightfall comes about because he's on the back foot (to the point where the Sunspears and the Order of Whispers considered him defanged) and because he knew he needed the PCs (and vice versa). There's a fair amount even there to indicate that he's actually a nasty piece of work and quite manipulative when he wants to be, though.

He's endearing because he's charismatic, but it's that very charisma that helps to make him dangerous - both in steadily absorbing his neighbours during ancient times, and in persuading many Elonians that he's worthy of their loyalty (and certainly not responsible for their problems that are definitely all caused by local administrators acting outside their responsibility!) now.

[CETheLucid.3964]

@draxynnic.3719 said:Personally, I'm inclined to think that Palawa was always intended to be the nasty piece of work we're seeing now.

His 'affable' behaviour in Nightfall comes about because he's on the back foot (to the point where the Sunspears and the Order of Whispers considered him defanged) and because he knew he needed the PCs (and vice versa). There's a fair amount even there to indicate that he's actually a nasty piece of work and quite manipulative when he wants to be, though.

He's endearing because he's charismatic, but it's that very charisma that helps to make him dangerous - both in steadily absorbing his neighbours during ancient times, and in persuading many Elonians that he's worthy of their loyalty (and certainly not responsible for their problems that are definitely all caused by local administrators acting outside their responsibility!) now.

Yeah, probably. World will be a better place without him. My 4th wall nostalgia sheds a tear for him though. Still hope he gets a grand arc and finale befitting the Scourge of Vabbi. Or he could always be a meme we seal away and he gets loose every dozen hundred of years or so. :naughty:

 

Palawa Joko GW3

 

[draxynnic.3719]

Honestly, I could see the "we seal him away for now, and he becomes the recurring villain of the franchise" working myself.

Just as long as it's a different story each time. We've had releasing him because we need his help. Now we're getting him as the despotic ruler we're (probably) going to try and overthrow. Next there could be a plot where we have to stop him from being released. Or a plot where he's released and we have to stop his next bid for power before it succeeds. He could really be the gift that keeps on giving!