Fractal Random Mistlock Instabilities

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Gilburt.9146" said:If you're going to make instabilities random, can you consider removing some of the instabilities that aren't particularly fun?

• Social Awkwardness: This one is really frustrating, especially in fights that have a lot of zoning. If you have to move a lot to avoid damage, it's very annoying having to constantly check that you're not standing too close to an ally. It's especially frustrating when playing with pugs that constantly run on top of you. I just want to be able to focus on the fight rather than constantly monitoring my position relative to 4 other players.
• Mists Convergence: This one is just too random and feels like it gets in the way rather than adding anything meaningful.
• Last Laugh: This isn't hard to deal with most of the time, but it just makes cleaving trash more annoying. In most boss fights this doesn't add too much challenge anyway.

At the very least can Social Awkwardness removed? It's just so annoying being able to stack perfectly in every single raid encounter, but then not being allowed to do so in many of the Fractals.

Edit: Removed salt/fixed grammar.

I'm of the opposite opinion.

Social Awkwardness can be annoying on certain fractals where placement and movement matters (Volcanic for example), but otherwise I think it's a good for a randomly showing instability. The entire purpose of it is to force people into tactics other than stacking, and I fully support this. With how often stacking is used, it more often feels like exploiting the game's mechanics than being an actual tactic.

Mists Convergence is my all time favorite instability, since it mixes the fractals together a bit. I've been downed by the rabbit but I've never had an "FFS THAT STUPID RABBIT" moment, or the same for the others, but rather it's been "Ah! Bunny! lol" moments.

And I think Last Laugh is good because it makes the non-boss fights more interactive. Otherwise they just feel like mindless "kill the red dots" situations more often than not.

The whitelisting may need alteration (some decent points here and there in this thread), but I advocate against complete removal. I don't find that any instability is unfun in every circumstance - just some. Unless you find everything that prevents "the most optimal method in any other situation" to be unfun (I don't; variety is the spice of life as they say).

That said, I will say that there are certain combinations that should never happen, and for that purpose I am hopeful that the devs go the same route that bounty effects seem to be - where there's two or three (or in the case of fractals, one, two, or three) slots which have a random set, so you could never get a dupe but also so that you never get two that function similarly together (e.g., you'll never get both Exploiter and Phaser on bounties).

[reapex.8546]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Gilburt.9146 said:If you're going to make instabilities random, can you consider removing some of the instabilities that aren't particularly fun?

• Social Awkwardness:
  This one is really frustrating, especially in fights that have a lot of zoning. If you have to move a lot to avoid damage, it's very annoying having to constantly check that you're not standing too close to an ally. It's especially frustrating when playing with pugs that constantly run on top of you. I just want to be able to focus on the fight rather than constantly monitoring my position relative to 4 other players.
• Mists Convergence:
  This one is just too random and feels like it gets in the way rather than adding anything meaningful.
• Last Laugh:
  This isn't hard to deal with most of the time, but it just makes cleaving trash more annoying. In most boss fights this doesn't add too much challenge anyway.

At the very least can Social Awkwardness removed?

It's just so annoying being able to stack perfectly in every single raid encounter, but then not being allowed to do so in many of the Fractals.

Manaage your cleave better so you kill all the adds around the same time. Easy.

Those instabilities are fun imo, makes you more aware of your character and prevents lazy stacking that you can do in dungeons.

[zealex.9410]

@Khisanth.2948 said:

@nortask.8351 said:

@"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:Some people have wanted to see the whitelist, I see no problem with disclosing the current iteration since people will figure it out anyways and there's no point to hiding it.

https://imgur.com/a/ChoU5

I may be alone here but I personally think that hamstrung is one of the harder instabilities for pugs and for beginners, especially for lower tier groups because they won't likely have any support or anything. At least for volcanic and swampland, I've had t2 and t3 groups that just quit on them or just do a lower fractal level version without hamstrung. Volcanic is just rude because once you take damage you slow down, when you slow down you take damage, pugs get so rattled by it.

That ramp up on Hamstrung is a bit crazy ... you take one hit and it is suddenly -75% movement speed.

if you like lose 70% of your life in one hit u might need to re-evaluate your knowledge of that fractal.

[Benjamin Arnold.3457]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:

@Bugabuga.9721 said:Hamstrung in swampland is extremely unfair and sadistic. Especially with toxic trail. Do you really think players enjoy that particular combo when t4's whisp carry timer is very tight as-is? I understand it in twilight oasis (as that's mostly for higher organized teams) but swampland? ?

You're probably right here.

Idk about that. The timer before the boss does the group wide aoe is around 25+ sec which is usually more or the same with the cd of you heal. Also mobility wise your dodge is u afected by the insrability so dodging twice cover a good deal of distance.

Yeah we did test this combination internally and it ended up being fine. We took almost no damage at the beginning at T4, most of the pressure of that puzzle is jumping over the trees. In the end we managed to make it just fine with movement skills and dodges, though we were all pretty familiar with it. Im curious how other groups fare.

[Benjamin Arnold.3457]

@Shikaru.7618 said:I'm sure Vindicators during Ensolyss bullet hell will create a wholesome non toxic gaming experience for everyone involved.

Vindicators are getting nerfed. Stay tuned.

[zealex.9410]

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:

@Shikaru.7618 said:I'm sure Vindicators during Ensolyss bullet hell will create a wholesome non toxic gaming experience for everyone involved.

Vindicators are getting nerfed. Stay tuned.

Dont one liner us. Giv information!!!

[zealex.9410]

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:

@Bugabuga.9721 said:Hamstrung in swampland is extremely unfair and sadistic. Especially with toxic trail. Do you really think players enjoy that particular combo when t4's whisp carry timer is very tight as-is? I understand it in twilight oasis (as that's mostly for higher organized teams) but swampland? ?

You're probably right here.

Idk about that. The timer before the boss does the group wide aoe is around 25+ sec which is usually more or the same with the cd of you heal. Also mobility wise your dodge is u afected by the insrability so dodging twice cover a good deal of distance.

Yeah we did test this combination internally and it ended up being fine. We took almost no damage at the beginning at T4, most of the pressure of that puzzle is jumping over the trees. In the end we managed to make it just fine with movement skills and dodges, though we were all pretty familiar with it. Im curious how other groups fare.

Theres also these guns that give swiftness iirc if the group is strugling extra hard on that part.

[Khisanth.2948]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Gilburt.9146" said:If you're going to make instabilities random, can you consider removing some of the instabilities that aren't particularly fun?

• Social Awkwardness:
  This one is really frustrating, especially in fights that have a lot of zoning. If you have to move a lot to avoid damage, it's very annoying having to constantly check that you're not standing too close to an ally. It's especially frustrating when playing with pugs that constantly run on top of you. I just want to be able to focus on the fight rather than constantly monitoring my position relative to 4 other players.
• Mists Convergence:
  This one is just too random and feels like it gets in the way rather than adding anything meaningful.
• Last Laugh:
  This isn't hard to deal with most of the time, but it just makes cleaving trash more annoying. In most boss fights this doesn't add too much challenge anyway.

At the very least can Social Awkwardness removed?

It's just so annoying being able to stack perfectly in every single raid encounter, but then not being allowed to do so in many of the Fractals.

Edit: Removed salt/fixed grammar.

I'm of the opposite opinion.

Social Awkwardness can be annoying on certain fractals where placement and movement matters (Volcanic for example), but otherwise I think it's a good for a randomly showing instability. The entire purpose of it is to force people into tactics other than stacking, and I fully support this. With how often stacking is used, it more often feels like exploiting the game's mechanics than being an actual tactic.

Mists Convergence is my all time favorite instability, since it mixes the fractals together a bit. I've been downed by the rabbit but I've never had an "kitten THAT STUPID RABBIT" moment, or the same for the others, but rather it's been "Ah! Bunny! lol" moments.

Bunny doesn't matter but getting the giant tentacle in the middle Uncategorized's jumping section or boss of Thaumanova feels like bullshit.

And I think Last Laugh is good because it makes the non-boss fights more interactive. Otherwise they just feel like mindless "kill the red dots" situations more often than not.

The whitelisting may need alteration (some decent points here and there in this thread), but I advocate against complete removal. I don't find that any instability is unfun in every circumstance - just some. Unless you find everything that prevents "the most optimal method in any other situation" to be unfun (I don't; variety is the spice of life as they say).

That said, I will say that there are certain combinations that should never happen, and for that purpose I am hopeful that the devs go the same route that bounty effects seem to be - where there's two or three (or in the case of fractals, one, two, or three) slots which have a random set, so you could never get a dupe but also so that you never get two that function similarly together (e.g., you'll never get both Exploiter and Phaser on bounties).

but bounties are even worse than the instabilities. social awkwardness plus toxic trails would be less annoying than phase shift or exploiter on Silkears or any djinn with phase shift and it ends up flashing constantly

[Professor Sprout.1560]

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:

@"Shikaru.7618" said:I'm sure Vindicators during Ensolyss bullet hell will create a wholesome non toxic gaming experience for everyone involved.

Vindicators are getting nerfed. Stay tuned.

Indeed? This is good news. I'm really not a fan of this one as I don't like the negative social dynamics it can generate in an "all players welcome" PUG when you want to support casual players. That instability, Twilight Oasis and the Molten Boss rework are the three main reasons I stopped doing fractals.

[Gilburt.9146]

@FrostDraco.8306 said:They already changed social awkwardness to effect the person who moves on top of you rather than you. If you are having trouble with this instability, then chances are you are probably the person moving into other people.

I've literally never had a problem with this one except for on mai trin, nightmare, and twilight, when we dont bring a heal support.

You don't understand how Social Awkwardness works. If a player attacks while within a certain range of a party member, that player gets agony. It doesn't matter who moves onto whom, anyone using attacks while within the radius of another player gets agony. Test it yourself if you don't believe me.

[Eramonster.2718]

Will need a nerf on Toxic Trail too. Honestly, I it the hardest, followed by Social Awkwardness. It's the reason why I avoid playing T3 and anything lower than lv80+ for T4. I can deal with Social Awkwardness(an inexperienced group will probably end up messy but do-able), vindicators, hamstrung, flux bombs etc is okay (even if the group made mistakes its can be dealt with). Toxic Trail however, I can't grasp the NPCs as they target and move at random. Some NPCs with smaller hitbox, forces melee players to take dmg in order to get in range. If the NPC decides to run pass a player and causes the player to drop(downed) on the trail, no one will save him/her. And overlapping Toxic Trail stacks :astonished:

[Malediktus.9250]

Yes. make t4 fractals even more boring and casual, what could go wrong

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Khisanth.2948 said:Bunny doesn't matter but getting the giant tentacle in the middle Uncategorized's jumping section or boss of Thaumanova feels like kitten.

One shot (or nearly so) by an unseen bunny does matter. And so would a giant tentacle in the muddle of a jumping section (I would argue that during the boss of Thaumanova is not that big of a deal - unless it's one of those uncommon situations where you're stuck on a singular platform and then bam it shows up, but that's (un)luck of the draw and can occur with anything really).

@Khisanth.2948 said:but bounties are even worse than the instabilities. social awkwardness plus toxic trails would be less annoying than phase shift or exploiter on Silkears or any djinn with phase shift and it ends up flashing constantly

This is why there's whitelisting though. Bounties, by all appearances, have no whitelisting - though they certainly could use some.

Honestly, some of the posts in this thread are beginning to read off to me as "it's not faceroll easy, make it easier!" And that's just the wrong attitude to go after.

There should be variety. There should be occasional difficulty.

I just hope this doesn't result in a similar case to rolling for swamp. Because at the moment, with all these complaints of "needing it to be as easy as possible", it feels like that's how it'll go...

[Eramonster.2718]

Honestly, some of the posts in this thread are beginning to read off to me as "it's not faceroll easy, make it easier!" And that's just the wrong attitude to go after.There's truth in that :lol:

[zealex.9410]

@Malediktus.9250 said:Yes. make t4 fractals even more boring and casual, what could go wrong

w8 what?

[zealex.9410]

@"Eramonster.2718" said:

Honestly, some of the posts in this thread are beginning to read off to me as "it's not faceroll easy, make it easier!" And that's just the wrong attitude to go after.There's truth in that :lol:

nerfing every single instability coz ppl dont want to > @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Khisanth.2948 said:Bunny doesn't matter but getting the giant tentacle in the middle Uncategorized's jumping section or boss of Thaumanova feels like kitten.

One shot (or nearly so) by an unseen bunny does matter. And so would a giant tentacle in the muddle of a jumping section (I would argue that during the boss of Thaumanova is not that big of a deal - unless it's one of those uncommon situations where you're stuck on a singular platform and then bam it shows up, but that's (un)luck of the draw and can occur with anything really).

@Khisanth.2948 said:but bounties are even worse than the instabilities. social awkwardness plus toxic trails would be less annoying than phase shift or exploiter on Silkears or any djinn with phase shift and it ends up flashing constantly

This is why there's whitelisting though. Bounties, by all appearances, have no whitelisting - though they certainly could use some.

Honestly, some of the posts in this thread are beginning to read off to me as "it's not faceroll easy, make it easier!" And that's just the wrong attitude to go after.

There should be variety. There should be occasional difficulty.

I just hope this doesn't result in a similar case to rolling for swamp. Because at the moment, with all these complaints of "needing it to be as easy as possible", it feels like that's how it'll go...

Nerfing every instability because ppl cant abjust their playstyle to counter is equally wrong.

[Benjamin Arnold.3457]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:

@Shikaru.7618 said:I'm sure Vindicators during Ensolyss bullet hell will create a wholesome non toxic gaming experience for everyone involved.

Vindicators are getting nerfed. Stay tuned.

Dont one liner us. Giv information!!!

If I tell you guys everything, there will never be any mystery. That's no fun.

[Linken.6345]

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:

@Shikaru.7618 said:I'm sure Vindicators during Ensolyss bullet hell will create a wholesome non toxic gaming experience for everyone involved.

Vindicators are getting nerfed. Stay tuned.

Dont one liner us. Giv information!!!

If I tell you guys everything, there will never be any

mystery

. That's no fun.

Would you do it for a Scoobie Snack?

[LazySummer.2568]

@Godot.3259 said:

Hi!Earth focus 5 is a 3s invuln, earth focus 4 is a i think 3s reflect, air focus 4 is a 6s projectile destruct air focus 5 is a single target knockdown and water focus 5 is a aoe daze.conjure earth shield gives you a 3s invuln and there are a lot of other skills that can help you survive adding to at part the fact that you can actually blind them. There are also a multitude of kits that grant special skills that you can use on any class to help you clear that encounter.

Hope that helps!I've tried all the invuls + projectile block ele has (mist form/earth shield/twist of fate/arcane shield/focus) + summon elemental running on berserk armor (because who carries useless toughness ascended armors in fractals other than rich people). It certainly is enough to keep you on a button assuming the gate opener doesn't get interrupted. However, as soon as there's 1 or 2 interruption, you run out of sustain, and you're dead because you have 0 damage to kill the dredges that are on you and all your defensive skills are high cd while the dredges basically 2 shot you, forcing an invul on nearly every hit.

Unless I'm wrong but I thought dredges are immune to blind, else sandstorm would make it ezpz

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:One shot (or nearly so) by an unseen bunny does matter. And so would a giant tentacle in the muddle of a jumping section (I would argue that during the boss of Thaumanova is not that big of a deal - unless it's one of those uncommon situations where you're stuck on a singular platform and then bam it shows up, but that's (un)luck of the draw and can occur with anything really).

Honestly, some of the posts in this thread are beginning to read off to me as "it's not faceroll easy, make it easier!" And that's just the wrong attitude to go after.

There should be variety. There should be occasional difficulty.

I just hope this doesn't result in a similar case to rolling for swamp. Because at the moment, with all these complaints of "needing it to be as easy as possible", it feels like that's how it'll go...

Dunno, but I never had problems in my groups if someone got downed by a bunny. It really rarely happens and mostly those who are downed are completely inexperienced players. Same with the giant tentacle at Uncategorized. You have 2 jumping sections: The first one is really short and no problem at all and for the second it's enough that one player makes it through so the rest can /gg and is transferred to the top. And exp players in T4 already do this. I haven't seen a complete team jumping making it to the top since months. Same for the jumping part in Chaos. I definitely see no challenge here at all.

I agree to variety, I like the challenge but we need more new stuff and not just an alternation of older instabilities imho. And I haven't seen crybaby posts in this thread. Most of them are well thought and yeah, more of a problem than just a bunny or a tentacle on a jumping part. If you see those as a challenge than there's a lot of other things you won't even pass in the future because it's ten times more challenging for you.

Furthermore the instabilities are just annoying and not challenging but that's only my opinion. I can only speak for myself but at the moment the only instabilities where you have to be aware of is Social Awkwardness when running with pugs because in some way you have to target the boss and there isn't much you can do if 2-3 players are constantly moving like crazy chicken through the rest of the team although there is no reason to.At the moment the challenge modes are fine but with this change we will get a few combinations at bosses that can make them really annoying and not fun to play - already mentioned in this thread here.

Although believing that the general change won't affect my dailies (both CMs, T4 + Recs) that much I would predict that this change will lead to a loss of players in T4 and also for fractals in general. Maybe that's intended but I think it's not needed to exclude players from fractals they were able to conquer since months/years. I can only hope that the balancing is on a regular basis and feeback will be heard properly.

[Gilburt.9146]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Social Awkwardness can be annoying on certain fractals where placement and movement matters (Volcanic for example), but otherwise I think it's a good for a randomly showing instability. The entire purpose of it is to force people into tactics other than stacking, and I fully support this. With how often stacking is used, it more often feels like exploiting the game's mechanics than being an actual tactic.Social Awkwardness does not force players into tactics other than stacking. The whole game is designed around standing close to allies to heal and share buffs. Social awkwardness does not change that. When my friends and I play fractals with Social Awkwardness we have to spread out slightly, but everyone still stands as close together as possible. In fights with minimal movement it's not much of an issue, but in fights with constant movement or little space to stand it's just not fun. The only way this instability actually changes tactics is that it forces everyone to constantly focus on the positions of other players rather than the actual mechanics of the fight while turning inattentive pugs with a penchant for pointless movement into a menace. :anguished:

[SwOrly.9362]

I feel like there are no problems with instabilities at all. Yes some can be annoying but you can still do them just fine. Having them random would make a lot of diference in playstyle. Most of the people are playing glass cannon classes and then been surprised when they die. This changes nothing only that you would need to pay more attention wich Fotm lvl you will choose as daily. Something what Im doing as main healer anyway. I always take a look wich one is easier and wich one isnt. The most annoying one is probably the last laugh and vindicators. I would love to see even more instabilities added into the game.

[thrag.9740]

I just want to say that you guys are doing a great job. Seeing you post in here, and discussing ideas, and also accepting feedback such as the swamp + hamstrung thing above is so wonderful. Every update that brings new story, raids, or fractals, I try to make sure I buy something in the gem store, and it feels like the past year and a half I'm always super happy to support what you guys have become. I wish the team could have been this organized and upfront from the beginning, it took you guys some time to get there, but you've really hit your stride.

By the way, I hope we are getting that health bar update you talked about on reddit with this patch. I have experience on literally just about every class except druid because of the health bar issue, excited to possibly finally give it a try.

[Khisanth.2948]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Khisanth.2948 said:Bunny doesn't matter but getting the giant tentacle in the middle Uncategorized's jumping section or boss of Thaumanova feels like kitten.

One shot (or nearly so) by an unseen bunny does matter. And so would a giant tentacle in the muddle of a jumping section (I would argue that during the boss of Thaumanova is not that big of a deal - unless it's one of those uncommon situations where you're stuck on a singular platform and then bam it shows up, but that's (un)luck of the draw and can occur with anything really).

The bunny spawns with the bunny finisher which includes a banner dropping down and the sound. That is not very stealthy.

@Khisanth.2948 said:but bounties are even worse than the instabilities. social awkwardness plus toxic trails would be less annoying than phase shift or exploiter on Silkears or any djinn with phase shift and it ends up flashing constantly

This is why there's whitelisting though. Bounties, by all appearances, have no whitelisting - though they certainly could use some.

Honestly, some of the posts in this thread are beginning to read off to me as "it's not faceroll easy, make it easier!" And that's just the wrong attitude to go after.

There should be variety. There should be occasional difficulty.

I just hope this doesn't result in a similar case to rolling for swamp. Because at the moment, with all these complaints of "needing it to be as easy as possible", it feels like that's how it'll go...

Unless I am misreading there is no rolling possible. At most there would be "I am not playing fractals this week".

[Madara.7435]

@Amicable Pugs.4503 said:Shattered and Nightmare shouldn't be able to get Social Awkwardness, Flux Bomb and Last Laugh. It literally ruins any fun of doing CM's.

You mean it ruins any challenge? LoL

I like the idea of the changes proposed, after some time you really get used to the same instabilities on the same levels and this really is a breath of fresh air.I find the proposed whitelist reasonable, although I can't say much about T2+T3. I'm running daily T4 with pugs for over a year now and as far as I can tell people have more problems with the fractals itself than with instabilities. ofc some instab combinations can be difficult but I dont think they make the fractal impossible to get through. But time and testing will tell.Fractal Vindicator nerf really??? why? Yes they hit like a truck, but I thought that was the plan? tbh I don't think a nerf is necessary, especially when they are only around at T4 when people should already know some stuff. Pls nerf Mist Convergence instead, the capture point contribution in Urban Battlegrounds really should not be there ;)

+Dont listen to the whiners. T4 should be difficult and not easyloot and rollyourfaceoverkeyboardtowin like they want it to be. There was a time when people were able to finish T4 fractals without meta comp... how I wish that time would come back. When people were not this lazy...