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PvP game-mode should be reworked


Rumick.8621

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This post is the same as one I posted on reddit here:https://reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/82bbxh/pvp_should_be_remade_from_scratch/

The Intro

I will be talking about sPvP exclusively, WvW and other game modes should stay as they are. (this was one of the things that were widely misinterpreted) And I will also be restaining from elaborating other numerous things that can be found in the document linked above. Just plain thoughts how sPvP should be changed.

So how should sPvP be changed if I were to do it

I would be moving away from Contest as I feel it is just too shallow (elaborated in comments)

You try to avoid bad matchups and fight mostly only on points and that's it. Of course, there is more to it (strategies like 1-4 with one bunker annoying enemy team on far, high mobility roamers Like Thief or Mirage players go for 2v1s to turn the tide of fights and try to neutralize points as much as they can,..), but the general idea is the one written above. And for you to actually enjoy this game mode you have to be good at it. For most casual players this is very hard to grasp. It's shallow yet with some strategies and thoughts behind itCapture point is shallow and will always be shallow as a game mode. Not offering too much strategy or diversity. This is true at least for the current iteration of it in GW2 Conquest. Just play anything, teamcomp really doesn't matter much and just rotate and avoid bad matchups. How fun is that. It's too straightforward, too shallow. And that's its problem, it doesn't excite you.Introducing a new mode that would be tanking the best from other successful competitive games (like LoL, Dota, Overwatch,...). Will elaborate on this a bit further below.I feel like Stronghold was a step in the right direction. However, it shouldn't have been abandoned by the devs as it should be taken as an experiment.There are a number of things that should have been done differently. Stronghold was too dependent on PvE element of it, which felt bad. So 1st thing would be to move it more towards PvP and give players more tools that would be in their hands, used by them. Not some skritt running somewhere or hero that just runs it down offense... Which was another problem of Stronghold. You had offense lane and defense lane. And if you wanted to win by defeating the lord, you had to spawn a bunch of stuff, hoe it survives and run it down offense. Wow, such interesting gameplay. Why the maps have to be so small and so... uninteresting. Why not have entire cities with high walls so you couldn't see what's in the next alley. Or forests with brushes and walls where you don't know who awaits you on the other end. The fact that you can see a player from 2 miles away makes the game that more predictable and in the end it doesn't keep you as sharp as it should.GW1 GvG comes really close to what I will be proposing.

With this out of the way, let's move on.

The new sPvP mode

  • The new game mode should be en evolution of both Stronghold and GW1 GvG. Castle vs Castle (or swamp base with Hyleks or something, possibilities are endless) game mode where it might be 5v5 - 8v8 (don't know which one would be better, would have to be playtested). Players would have to kill the enemy Lord by infiltrating the base. (just as stronghold)
  • The new maps should have their identity: Swamps, Castles with cities in between, etc. The point here is to make the map more complex. With high walls, brushes and so on, in order to limit the vision so encounters would be at least partly unexpected (like in CS:GO or LoL with its fog of war).

    Fog of war can be easily replicated with terrain blocking sight. If the maps created would be fun and better thought out (like them not being flat, but going uphill or downhill, bigger and with more stuff on it.... you could build entire cities as fighting grounds, or have thick forests with brushes that cannot be seen through, so you wouldn't know exactly what awaits on the other side of it).

  • There should be numerous neutral objectives to fight over (yet again to make the game more complex and give it more strategies to win). Those objectives would give players certain buffs or items (such as siege equipment or mines, atc.)
  • There should be more options for offensive ending the game (i.e. other options to infiltrate the base and kill the lord). For example, accessing sewer system or going through the back door. This is also a flaw that was in Stronghold as it had only one offensive lane so any offensive action was really telegraphed and could happen in one place only. Have at least two offensive lanes, preferably three.
  • Players should have assigned roles as they have in Fractals or Raids (tank, support, dps). This point is debatable as it might kill diversity in some way. But it has proven to be the standard in other games and kind of gives players direction of what they should be doing.
  • There should be a proper tutorial which would explain this mode to players and walk them through the game

What should this game mode accomplish

  • attract new players to PvP
  • make PvP more competitive and complex
  • give players some direction of what to do
  • make a solid ground for GW2 as an eSportPlease do comment this, I would like to hear all the feedback and ideas you have.

Ideas of other people from comments/reddit:

  • Dark2244 (reddit)

    why not give one team a castle to protect against team of conquerors for one round then roate teams and see who conqurers it faster

  • YamZcicada (reddit)

    how good would a wvw sized map be in every man for themselves. Battle Royal Wvw Mode. I LIKE !!! (Battle Royale deathmatch, no respawns, no objectives to take, just reduced healing effectiveness, big map full of players... battle for survival)

  • Reor_Ardens (reddit)

    just plain simple deathmatch in simple arenas. (matchmade deathmatch without respawns)

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@Rumick.8621 said:Introducing a new mode that would be tanking the best from other successful competitive games (like LoL, Dota, Overwatch,...). Will elaborate on this a bit further below.Because trying to compete head-to-head with already established titles in a genre that is extremely niche to begin with will work so well. There are entire graveyards full of dead LoL and Overwatch copy-cat games.

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@Crinn.7864 said:

@"Rumick.8621" said:Introducing a new mode that would be tanking the best from other successful competitive games (like LoL, Dota, Overwatch,...). Will elaborate on this a bit further below.Because trying to compete head-to-head with already established titles in a genre that is extremely niche to begin with will work so well. There are entire graveyards full of dead LoL and Overwatch copy-cat games.

If I understood correctly, the Idea was not to just cope paste, but take parts from another interesting solution and come up with something GW2-like. And, to be fair, LoL, Dota, Overwatch are the same. A mix of already existing "solutions" for games ;-)

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What you describe seems to be the WvW to me. Let's ask ANet for more WvW maps, I'd love that.

In any case, while a new conquest player will consider 90% of his matchups "bad" and tend to avoid them, an experienced conquest player will eventually see that only 10% of matchups are "bad" as he learns how to outplay, rotate, and counter, gaining freedom and bringing the "deepness" to gameplay.I do not agree with your premise at all: in my opinion, in conquest you have a reason to fight (you need to capture), a reason to disengage as well (you can look for better opportunities), a reason to stall for time (you need to bunker), a reason to use AoEs, a reason to temporarily contest areas of spontaneous importance (buffs, animals). I believe it offers fluid and varied experience.

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@"Airdive.2613" said:What you describe seems to be the WvW to me. Let's ask ANet for more WvW maps, I'd love that.

Not at all. I was suggesting taking WvW idea and transferring it to 5v5 sPvP to make new Stronghold.WvW is super cool but because it requires a lot of players active to be really fun, it works only in some circumstances. 5v5 is fine to matchmake and you could have full strategic experience with some progress to it (few numbers on the screen is not really progress - Conquest).

In any case, while a new conquest player will consider 90% of his matchups "bad" and tend to avoid them, an experienced conquest player will eventually see that only 10% of matchups are "bad" as he learns how to outplay, rotate, and counter, gaining freedom and bringing the "deepness" to gameplay.

Sure, veteran players might feel this way. How many are you in sPvP right now? And how many players got fed up with the initial 90%?Probably a lot more than who stuck to it. If it is that way, then the design is flawed and shouldn't be used as it is not going to be successful (as it is not).And I'm not suggesting that we "f-word over" the veterans. I'm suggesting that we should move to a different design that is more friendly towards beginners as well as providing enough in-depth strategies and interactions for veterans.

I do not agree with your premise at all: in my opinion, in conquest you have a reason to fight (you need to capture), a reason to disengage as well (you can look for better opportunities), a reason to stall for time (you need to bunker), a reason to use AoEs, a reason to temporarily contest areas of spontaneous importance (buffs, animals). I believe it offers fluid and varied experience.

I get you. As I said it is shallow with some thoughts behind it.

Of course, there is more to it (strategies like 1-4 with one bunker annoying enemy team on far, high mobility roamers Like Thief or Mirage players go for 2v1s to turn the tide of fights and try to neutralize points as much as they can,..)My point here is that it's not enough. Take a look at how complex, yet easy to get into is League of Legends. I am coming to GW2 (returning after few years) from semi-pro LoL level (was a coach for a couple of top-tier regional teams - regional = national competition, analytic and shoutcaster) and the depth that this system can offer is trivial when compared to high level LoL.And yet, while it is so trivial, it is so confusing that casual players cannot really enjoy it and just stick to PvE instead. Which is just ridiculous.The game in PvE context progressed in miles compared to where it was 5 years ago, it changed so much (and for better). Yet the PvP part is the same as it was 5 years ago (with couple maps added). LoL, Dota, CS... all competitive games change, introduce new mechanics and evolve. People who won world championship 5 years ago, wouldn't stand a chance in 2nd tier leagues. Yet GW2 PvP... no changes.

That's why I am making the push for changing the game-mode.Conquest doesn't fill the checkboxes a well-designed competitive game should nowadays.

  • Is it friendly to newbies? Certainly not.
  • Is it appealing or exciting? Only in a very limited way.
  • Is it fun to watch? Hell no, it's just chaos for a normal spectator.
  • Is it eSport ready? Nope, and never will, as was prooved couple years ago.

Conquest, as it is right now, is just a time killer if you get fed up/bored with PvE and would never survive on its own.It's just there to be there. It doesn't augment the game in any way. It's not helping the PvE, it can't survive on its own... So in my eyes current sPvP is just a nasty parasite.

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