Should mirage dodge prevent capture point contribution?

[witcher.3197]

Mirage cloak turns dodge rolling into what's basically invulnerability, and invulnerability (like Obsidian Flesh or Distortion) prevents capture point contribution while mirage cloak doesn't. Shouldn't mirage dodge be subjected to the same ruleset?

It'd push the elite spec out of its unintended bunker role without having to nerf core traits.

[apharma.3741]

Funny you mention this, mirage cloak will not get you out of guardian lines and spear of justice gives 0 effs about if you're in mirage cloak or not when they pull you, just like how they all give 0 effs about normal dodges.

Mirage cloak isn't invuln anymore than dodging is invuln, if you want to go down this route you should really ask that daredevil dodges also prevent point cap because I guarantee they can have way more dodges and evade frames than mirage while also doing damage, in fact remember the old dodge holo build? More dodges while also doing damage.

What you should be complaining at isn't mirage cloak per say it's that elusive mind allows stunbreak on dodge, this shouldn't be in the game, if you mistimed your dodge and got hit by CC you should be punished for it. Likewise the ability to use mirage cloak while CC'd is something that probably shouldn't be in the game either.

Edit: To illustrate my point, grab your mesmer or a friend who has a mirage and do some duels where that person cannot pick the elusive mind trait. See what you think of mirage then. It goes from some really strong almost unkillable spec to much more manageable. Though they can get CC spam on sword with infinite horizon so better pack some stab!

[witcher.3197]

@apharma.3741 said:Mirage cloak isn't invuln anymore than dodging is invuln, if you want to go down this route you should really ask that daredevil dodges also prevent point cap because I guarantee they can have way more dodges and evade frames than mirage while also doing damage, in fact remember the old dodge holo build? More dodges while also doing damage.

Can daredevil cast non-instant skills while dodging? No. Their dodge is just a dodge. Can holo cast non-instant skills while dodging? No.

[apharma.3741]

@witcher.3197 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Mirage cloak isn't invuln anymore than dodging is invuln, if you want to go down this route you should really ask that daredevil dodges also prevent point cap because I guarantee they can have way more dodges and evade frames than mirage while also doing damage, in fact remember the old dodge holo build? More dodges while also doing damage.

Can daredevil cast non-instant skills while dodging? No. Their dodge is just a dodge. Can holo cast non-instant skills while dodging? No.

You missed the point, they both have dodges that cause damage or other effects while also evading attacks where you cannot counter that effect for the most part, they also have the capacity to regenerate more dodges than a mirage thus having a higher uptime on evades. What's so special about mirage that you feel the need for it to be singled out for it's dodges to not count towards point cap? That they can cast any skill on their bar while evading? If that was your point why didn't you say so, because what you said was:

@witcher.3197 said:Mirage cloak turns dodge rolling into what's basically invulnerability, and invulnerability (like Obsidian Flesh or Distortion) prevents capture point contribution while mirage cloak doesn't. Shouldn't mirage dodge be subjected to the same ruleset?

It'd push the elite spec out of its unintended bunker role without having to nerf core traits.

I already pointed out mirage cloak is in no way close to invulnerability certainly not Obsidian Flesh or Distortion, you still get hit by anything that ignores dodges, you will still take damage from retaliation or anything as a consequence of what you select to do inside mirage cloaks evade frame.

[Vieux P.1238]

@witcher.3197 said:Mirage cloak turns dodge rolling into what's basically invulnerability, and invulnerability (like Obsidian Flesh or Distortion) prevents capture point contribution while mirage cloak doesn't. Shouldn't mirage dodge be subjected to the same ruleset?

It'd push the elite spec out of its unintended bunker role without having to nerf core traits.

Every dodges from every classes gives invulnerability! Mirage cloak is no different except for the animation. Why should Mirages be considered differently because of it's animation? Should Thief Dash on dodge be also subjected to the same cap restrictions as well?

[witcher.3197]

@apharma.3741 said:

@witcher.3197 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Mirage cloak isn't invuln anymore than dodging is invuln, if you want to go down this route you should really ask that daredevil dodges also prevent point cap because I guarantee they can have way more dodges and evade frames than mirage while also doing damage, in fact remember the old dodge holo build? More dodges while also doing damage.

Can daredevil cast non-instant skills while dodging? No. Their dodge is just a dodge. Can holo cast non-instant skills while dodging? No.

You missed the point, they both have dodges that cause damage

I never said dodge damage is the problem. At all. You are the one who is making up points to disagree with.

All I'm saying is, capture point contribution is disabled for invulnerability, but not for dodging. There is a fine line between the two, and the major difference is that you can't freecast skills while dodging but you can while invulnerable, and mirage cloak blurs the line between evasion and invuln. Dodging is an action that takes up 100% of well, the dodge. For mirage cloak you can use any skill you'd like, just like as if you were invulnerable.

Furthermore, you can finish people while mirage dodging, which again, is more in the territory of invulnerabilities, and you can even channel buffs while dodging on Temple, which makes it even BETTER than an invuln is this case.

It's also completely stationary if need be, no animation lock is attached to it, which makes it possible to dodge while encirled by area denial, which you list as a "counter" to it even though it's the other way around.

[Vicko.1204]

Mirage cloak is a baseline mechanic of mirage.It's not a trait.When you spec mirage,you automatically lose the normal dodge and you get mirage cloak.With your suggestion,mirages,doesnt matter what build they run,condi or power,bunker or not,will not be able to dodge freely while on capture points without thinking first "well if i keep avoiding dmg i will not be able to cap/hold the point". Do you seriously think that's fair?I could also ask for daredevils to not be able to use their third endurance bar on capture points because other class don't have a third bar to dodge and it's unfair being able to avoid damage longer than other classes.Which is stupid and I would never ask for something like that,because that will ruin daredevil in conquest.The third dodge is the daredevil mechanic,they have no option choosing that or something else,like mirage's mirage cloak.

Mirage will probably receive some heavy nerfs today from the updated upcoming balance patch.It indeed needs some damage nerfs,mainly for the recent reworked traits and phantasms,but asking for mirage cloak to be nerfed like that is over the top.

[BlackBeard.2873]

Probably shouldn't prevent capture contribution, but it SHOULD only last 0.75s like everyone else's dodge.

[Vieux P.1238]

@BlackBeard.2873 said:Probably shouldn't prevent capture contribution, but it SHOULD only last 0.75s like everyone else's dodge.Then every classes in Gw2 that has traits or anything that modifies there dodge should only last 0.75s. Not just mirage is what your saying right?

[Yannir.4132]

Maybe in the case of Mirage Cloak dodging breaking stun it should. Instead of the Exhaustion. But no when it doesn't stunbreak.

[shadowpass.4236]

@witcher.3197 said:Mirage cloak turns dodge rolling into what's basically invulnerability, and invulnerability (like Obsidian Flesh or Distortion) prevents capture point contribution while mirage cloak doesn't. Shouldn't mirage dodge be subjected to the same ruleset?

It'd push the elite spec out of its unintended bunker role without having to nerf core traits.

You should make it into a vote.

I would vote yes.

[Vieux P.1238]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@witcher.3197 said:Mirage cloak turns dodge rolling into what's basically invulnerability, and invulnerability (like Obsidian Flesh or Distortion) prevents capture point contribution while mirage cloak doesn't. Shouldn't mirage dodge be subjected to the same ruleset?

It'd push the elite spec out of its unintended bunker role without having to nerf core traits.

You should make it into a vote.

I would vote yes.

I Vote No!, unless every class with similar attributes has the same restrictions. Make it easy..just make dodges not cap contribution all across the board. EzPz, problem solved.

[apharma.3741]

@witcher.3197 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@witcher.3197 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Mirage cloak isn't invuln anymore than dodging is invuln, if you want to go down this route you should really ask that daredevil dodges also prevent point cap because I guarantee they can have way more dodges and evade frames than mirage while also doing damage, in fact remember the old dodge holo build? More dodges while also doing damage.

Can daredevil cast non-instant skills while dodging? No. Their dodge is just a dodge. Can holo cast non-instant skills while dodging? No.

You missed the point, they both have dodges that cause damage

I never said dodge damage is the problem. At all. You are the one who is making up points to disagree with.

All I'm saying is, capture point contribution is disabled for invulnerability, but not for dodging. There is a fine line between the two,

and the major difference is that you can't freecast skills while dodging but you can while invulnerable

, and

mirage cloak blurs the line between evasion and invuln

. Dodging is an action that takes up 100% of well, the dodge. For mirage cloak you can use any skill you'd like, just like as if you were invulnerable.

Furthermore, you can finish people while mirage dodging, which again, is more in the territory of invulnerabilities, and you can even channel buffs while dodging on Temple, which makes it even BETTER than an invuln is this case.

It's also completely stationary if need be, no animation lock is attached to it, which makes it possible to dodge while encirled by area denial, which you list as a "counter" to it even though it's the other way around.

Your problem is that a mirage doesn't have to interrupt what they're doing to dodge but that does not make it equatable to invulnerability. This is where your fallacy began and here's why.

Invulnerability makes you take 0 damage however so does dodging and mirage cloak so you have no legitimate complaint in terms of damage.

You can execute any action while in mirage cloak, except you can trait for dodging to execute actions too which happens during the dodge on other classes. You have no legitimate complaint on these grounds as other classes can likewise execute predetermined actions while in their dodge.

Mirage cloak doesn't interrupt your current action in order for you to avoid the attack or an effect, however there are numerous instant cast abilities which will likewise not interrupt what you are doing which will give a similar end effect of avoiding what will interrupt you. Yes there are differences between cool downs and that should be considered but it's not a valid reason to say a mirage cannot dodge without losing a node.

The only real complaint you have raised of merit is that mirage cloak doesn't interrupt the channelling on temple, which it should because everything else in the game interrupts that. However I would 100% accept if a dev said that they can't do that without destroying mirage cloak.

Yes mirage cloak blurs the lines however your premise that mirage cloak is close to or comparable to invulnerability and should therefore be treated as such for point capture is a false conclusion and at best a very big leap.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@witcher.3197 said:Mirage cloak turns dodge rolling into what's basically invulnerability, and invulnerability (like Obsidian Flesh or Distortion) prevents capture point contribution while mirage cloak doesn't. Shouldn't mirage dodge be subjected to the same ruleset?

It'd push the elite spec out of its unintended bunker role without having to nerf core traits.

You should make it into a vote.

I would vote yes.

I Vote No!, unless every class with similar attributes has the same restrictions.

No other classes have a similar mechanic to Mirage Cloak.

[BlackBeard.2873]

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@BlackBeard.2873 said:Probably shouldn't prevent capture contribution, but it SHOULD only last 0.75s like everyone else's dodge.Then every classes in Gw2 that has traits or anything that modifies there dodge should only last 0.75s. Not just mirage is what your saying right?

You mean like it already does? If that is a question...YES. However, nobody else's dodge skill, even modified, even for daredevil gives more than 0.75s of invuln frames.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@BlackBeard.2873 said:Probably shouldn't prevent capture contribution, but it SHOULD only last 0.75s like everyone else's dodge.Then every classes in Gw2 that has traits or anything that modifies there dodge should only last 0.75s. Not just mirage is what your saying right?

Sure, but there are no such traits.Even Daredevil's UC lasts only .75s; it just increases the movement speed of the dodge itself.

I don't really care if the mirage will cap a point or not during MC, though. My biggest issue to this day remains they can baseline dodge while stunned to negate any setup for any counterburst.

[witcher.3197]

@apharma.3741 said:

@witcher.3197 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@witcher.3197 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Mirage cloak isn't invuln anymore than dodging is invuln, if you want to go down this route you should really ask that daredevil dodges also prevent point cap because I guarantee they can have way more dodges and evade frames than mirage while also doing damage, in fact remember the old dodge holo build? More dodges while also doing damage.

Can daredevil cast non-instant skills while dodging? No. Their dodge is just a dodge. Can holo cast non-instant skills while dodging? No.

You missed the point, they both have dodges that cause damage

I never said dodge damage is the problem. At all. You are the one who is making up points to disagree with.

All I'm saying is, capture point contribution is disabled for invulnerability, but not for dodging. There is a fine line between the two,

and the major difference is that you can't freecast skills while dodging but you can while invulnerable

, and

mirage cloak blurs the line between evasion and invuln

. Dodging is an action that takes up 100% of well, the dodge. For mirage cloak you can use any skill you'd like, just like as if you were invulnerable.

Furthermore, you can finish people while mirage dodging, which again, is more in the territory of invulnerabilities, and you can even channel buffs while dodging on Temple, which makes it even BETTER than an invuln is this case.

It's also completely stationary if need be, no animation lock is attached to it, which makes it possible to dodge while encirled by area denial, which you list as a "counter" to it even though it's the other way around.

Your problem is that a mirage doesn't have to interrupt what they're doing to dodge but that does not make it equatable to invulnerability. This is where your fallacy began and here's why.

Invulnerability makes you take 0 damage however so does dodging and mirage cloak so you have no legitimate complaint in terms of damage.

You can execute any action while in mirage cloak, except you can trait for dodging to execute actions too which happens during the dodge on other classes. You have no legitimate complaint on these grounds as other classes can likewise execute predetermined actions while in their dodge.

Mirage cloak doesn't interrupt your current action in order for you to avoid the attack or an effect, however there are numerous instant cast abilities which will likewise not interrupt what you are doing which will give a similar end effect of avoiding what will interrupt you. Yes there are differences between cool downs and that should be considered but it's not a valid reason to say a mirage cannot dodge without losing a node.

The only real complaint you have raised of merit is that mirage cloak doesn't interrupt the channelling on temple, which it should because everything else in the game interrupts that. However I would 100% accept if a dev said that they can't do that without destroying mirage cloak.

Yes mirage cloak blurs the lines however your premise that mirage cloak is close to or comparable to invulnerability and should therefore be treated as such for point capture is a false conclusion and at best a very big leap.

At this point I'm just wondering if you really don't get my point whatsoever or if you're just a mirage main pretending not to.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

No evade does that, and the mirage is replacing its evade, like how daredevil replaces theirs. If you were to make mirage evade prevent capture, you'd have to do it with all evades.

[apharma.3741]

@witcher.3197 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@witcher.3197 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@witcher.3197 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Mirage cloak isn't invuln anymore than dodging is invuln, if you want to go down this route you should really ask that daredevil dodges also prevent point cap because I guarantee they can have way more dodges and evade frames than mirage while also doing damage, in fact remember the old dodge holo build? More dodges while also doing damage.

Can daredevil cast non-instant skills while dodging? No. Their dodge is just a dodge. Can holo cast non-instant skills while dodging? No.

You missed the point, they both have dodges that cause damage

I never said dodge damage is the problem. At all. You are the one who is making up points to disagree with.

All I'm saying is, capture point contribution is disabled for invulnerability, but not for dodging. There is a fine line between the two,

and the major difference is that you can't freecast skills while dodging but you can while invulnerable

, and

mirage cloak blurs the line between evasion and invuln

. Dodging is an action that takes up 100% of well, the dodge. For mirage cloak you can use any skill you'd like, just like as if you were invulnerable.

Furthermore, you can finish people while mirage dodging, which again, is more in the territory of invulnerabilities, and you can even channel buffs while dodging on Temple, which makes it even BETTER than an invuln is this case.

It's also completely stationary if need be, no animation lock is attached to it, which makes it possible to dodge while encirled by area denial, which you list as a "counter" to it even though it's the other way around.

Your problem is that a mirage doesn't have to interrupt what they're doing to dodge but that does not make it equatable to invulnerability. This is where your fallacy began and here's why.

Invulnerability makes you take 0 damage however so does dodging and mirage cloak so you have no legitimate complaint in terms of damage.

You can execute any action while in mirage cloak, except you can trait for dodging to execute actions too which happens during the dodge on other classes. You have no legitimate complaint on these grounds as other classes can likewise execute predetermined actions while in their dodge.

Mirage cloak doesn't interrupt your current action in order for you to avoid the attack or an effect, however there are numerous instant cast abilities which will likewise not interrupt what you are doing which will give a similar end effect of avoiding what will interrupt you. Yes there are differences between cool downs and that should be considered but it's not a valid reason to say a mirage cannot dodge without losing a node.

The only real complaint you have raised of merit is that mirage cloak doesn't interrupt the channelling on temple, which it should because everything else in the game interrupts that. However I would 100% accept if a dev said that they can't do that without destroying mirage cloak.

Yes mirage cloak blurs the lines however your premise that mirage cloak is close to or comparable to invulnerability and should therefore be treated as such for point capture is a false conclusion and at best a very big leap.

At this point I'm just wondering if you really don't get my point whatsoever or if you're just a mirage main pretending not to.

No, it's that your complaint has little to no logical basis for what you're asking.

Edit: Here's what a legitimate complaint looks like:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:Sure, but there are no such traits.Even Daredevil's UC lasts only .75s; it just increases the movement speed of the dodge itself.

I don't really care if the mirage will cap a point or not during MC, though. My biggest issue to this day remains they can baseline dodge while stunned to negate any setup for any counterburst.

[witcher.3197]

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:No evade does that, and the mirage is replacing its evade, like how daredevil replaces theirs. If you were to make mirage evade prevent capture, you'd have to do it with all evades.

Please read more than just a title before joining a discussion you clearly don't have a solid grasp of.

[witcher.3197]

@apharma.3741 @Vieux P.1238 @MithranArkanere.8957

To sum it up and clear up the confusion

Dodge (evasion) all follow the same rules:

• Have cast times. Just like you can't use 2 skills with cast times simultaneously, you can't combine a skill with evasion with another action that has a cast time. Be it regular dodge, warrior damage dodge, dearedevil dodge, pistol whip, lightning reflexes, you name it. They are all the same.
• Movement is restricted and locked after pressing the button. You temporarily lose control of your character's movement.

Invulnerability:

• Some skills such as distortion allow for other skills to be used. Even the ones that lock your bar can allow for other actions with cast times to be performed such as stomping.
• Always allows for free movement.

Mirage cloak

• No cast time, allows for other actions with cast times to be performed, thus breaking the 1st and most important distinction between evasion and invulnerability.
• Allows for free movement.
• The only thing it has common with evasion is that wards and similar control effects can break it.

By the way I'm not declaring that it SHOULD prevent cap point contribution, I'd just like to hear more opinions on it. BUT so far this thread's been nothing but a series of deflection and misunderstandings.

[Curunen.8729]

@BlackBeard.2873 said:Probably shouldn't prevent capture contribution, but it SHOULD only last 0.75s like everyone else's dodge.

Back when it was 0.75s in pof beta it was pretty bad - due to no movement making it awkward to get out of aoes, especially because of extra mechanical action required to move and only moving forward to get any reasonable length while evading. 1s made the whole thing much smoother.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

@witcher.3197 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:No evade does that, and the mirage is replacing its evade, like how daredevil replaces theirs. If you were to make mirage evade prevent capture, you'd have to do it with

all

evades.

Please read more than just a title before joining a discussion you clearly don't have a solid grasp of.

You are the one not reading. Read again. You are mixing up the 'evade' mechanic with the 'dodge' move.

All dodges are essentially a skill you perform with the dodgeroll command. They can be 'modified' like the warrior damaging dodge or the healing guardian dodge, or 'replaced' like daredevil and mirage.Not one of them have a cast time.All of them interrupt actions, except mirage cloak.All of them are unusable while immobilized or stunned, except Dash that can be used to remove immobilize, and mirage cloak that can be used even while stunned or immobilized.All of them except mirage cloak have a 0.75s duration. Mirage Cloak lasts 1s. You can actually start actions while you are evading, as the dodge roll move lasts less than 0.75s. Mirage cloak gives more of that extra time, but it isn't giving anything a dodge roll didn't have already.And they do not seem to have an aftercast.

Then you have skills that cause evade. You are conflating those with the dodge roll move. Skills that evade do not exactly follow the same rules as dodges.

The real difference here is how much more available and how long it lasts. They do not make the mirage invulnerable.Distortion does make you invulnerable even though it says "evade", and that needs to be fixed. Either Distortion actually evades and gainst the same vulnerabilities as other evades, or they change the description to actually say Invulnerable.But Mirage cloak is not the same as distortion. It actually makes you evade, and so it does not prevent capture.

You consider the mirage dodges more powerful than they are. They are indeed more powerful than other dodges, but you can't see what mirage loses to get them. As an evade, you will be still subject of latched tethers and wards even while dodging. So a dragonhunter can still pull you if they hit you with the spear before you dodge, and you will be hit by unblockable impassable wards when you walk through them, like static field and ring of warding.If you've found any tether put on them before evading or ward placed in their path before they start evading that doesn't work on them, that's a bug. It should be fixed.

If there's anything that one could consider a problem here it's Mirage Cloak lasting 1 second instead 0.75, being usable while immobilized or stunned, and not interrupting actions. The duration could be reduced to 0.75s like other dodges, and it could interrupt actions like other dodges, and stuns and immobilize could prevent its use. But preventing capture? That's out of the question.

[BlackBeard.2873]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@BlackBeard.2873 said:Probably shouldn't prevent capture contribution, but it SHOULD only last 0.75s like everyone else's dodge.

Back when it was 0.75s in pof beta it was pretty bad - due to no movement making it awkward to get out of aoes, especially because of extra mechanical action required to move and only moving forward to get any reasonable length while evading. 1s made the whole thing much smoother.

Sounds like a reasonable tradeoff for not having to break your offensive pressure. Otherwise, just make it give super-speed for 0.75s.

[witcher.3197]

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@witcher.3197 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:No evade does that, and the mirage is replacing its evade, like how daredevil replaces theirs. If you were to make mirage evade prevent capture, you'd have to do it with

all

evades.

Please read more than just a title before joining a discussion you clearly don't have a solid grasp of.

You are the one not reading. Read again. You are mixing up the 'evade' mechanic with the 'dodge' move.

All dodges are essentially a skill you perform with the dodgeroll command. They can be 'modified' like the warrior damaging dodge or the healing guardian dodge, or 'replaced' like daredevil and mirage.Not one of them have a cast time.All of them interrupt actions, except mirage cloak.All of them are unusable while immobilized or stunned, except Dash that can be used to remove immobilize, and mirage cloak that can be used even while stunned or immobilized.All of them except mirage cloak have a 0.75s duration. Mirage Cloak lasts 1s. You can actually start actions while you are evading, as the dodge roll move lasts less than 0.75s. Mirage cloak gives more of that extra time, but it isn't giving anything a dodge roll didn't have already.And they do not seem to have an aftercast.

Then you have skills that cause evade. You are conflating those with the dodge roll move. Skills that evade do not exactly follow the same rules as dodges.

The real difference here is how much more available and how long it lasts. They do not make the mirage invulnerable.Distortion does make you invulnerable even though it says "evade", and that needs to be fixed. Either Distortion actually evades and gainst the same vulnerabilities as other evades, or they change the description to actually say Invulnerable.But Mirage cloak is not the same as distortion. It actually makes you evade, and so it does not prevent capture.

You consider the mirage dodges more powerful than they are. They are indeed more powerful than other dodges, but you can't see what mirage loses to get them. As an evade, you will be still subject of latched tethers and wards even while dodging. So a dragonhunter can still pull you if they hit you with the spear before you dodge, and you will be hit by unblockable impassable wards when you walk through them, like static field and ring of warding.If you've found any tether put on them before evading or ward placed in their path before they start evading that doesn't work on them, that's a bug. It should be fixed.

If there's anything that one could consider a problem here it's Mirage Cloak lasting 1 second instead 0.75, being usable while immobilized or stunned, and not interrupting actions. The duration could be reduced to 0.75s like other dodges, and it could interrupt actions like other dodges, and stuns and immobilize could prevent its use. But preventing capture? That's out of the question.

All that wall of text about disagreeing with me without actually stating anything that'd go against what I was saying. Split evade and dodge into 2 then, it still doesn't make a difference to the arguement.