Are you ok with the Minstrels Meta?

[Zlater.6789]

Hi guys, I've been watching and observing and lately I've been making some observations that are really concerning. What is most concerning is that these observations do not apply only to pugs, but very much to some experienced raid statics as well.

1. Healer only players.
2. Banner Slave Warriors doing terrible DPS.
3. Double Healing Druid Comps in wings 1-4.
4. Non-tanking chronos using minstrels.
5. Druids using minstrels.

This isn't applicable to raids only though, in fractals I observe:

1. Minstrel Chronomancers
2. Healing Tempests
3. Shaman's Scourges (ok this sort of thing has always been a problem with necros)

Guys are we really ok with this? Am I the only one seeing this more now than ever, or am I crazy?

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

Dont see any problem here. Explain what is bad about it.

[Brynioch.1873]

How is any of that concerning?

1. People can play what they want. If their group allows that it's fine. If PUGs allow it, it is also fine. There are also people that can only play power DPS. What's the difference?
2. There are always people on all roles that do terrible DPS. Nothing new.
3. Groups can play how they want. If they don't feel comfortable without 2 healers they can play with it. If you wipe once you loose all time you could have safed running the optimal setup.
4. People are lazy. Maybe they tank sometimes and use ministrel for that and don't want too many armor pieces or more leadership runes.
5. Healer Druid DPS is garbage anyway and gets carried by the pet. If he doesn't get aggro it doesn't matter what he uses. If the group is fine it is not relevant.

Fractals:

1. This is the only problem in your entire list. But only for 99cm at Siax if the DPS in the group is not that good.
2. If the group want to play with a healing tempest they are free to do it.
3. I haven't seen a necro in ages in fractals.

If you are not ok with it you should get a static group that doesn't allow it. People can play how they want. If they still complete the content it's fine.

[Zlater.6789]

@"Miellyn.6847" said:How is any of that concerning?

That's a really good question. And that's something I'm really interested in hearing the community answer.

One thing I am concerned about is these people thinking they are "elite" or that they have some jurisdiction over other people. But actually none of these builds are carry builds, they don't make fights faster and they increase the number of mechanics the squad has to deal with. If there is even a 1% margin of error on a mechanic then someone will be failing it 1 in every 10 instances of it. So by increasing the DPS you decrease the number of potentially failed mechanics, none of anything I mentioned help to serve this purpose.

So in essence they make the fight more difficult for everyone else only to make it easier for themselves.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Zlater.6789 said:

@"Miellyn.6847" said:How is any of that concerning?

That's a really good question. And that's something I'm really interested in hearing the community answer.

One thing I am concerned about is these people thinking they are "elite" or that they have some jurisdiction over other people. But actually none of these builds are carry builds, they don't make fights faster and they increase the number of mechanics the squad has to deal with. If there is even a 1% margin of error on a mechanic then someone will be failing it 1 in every 10 instances of it. So by increasing the DPS you decrease the number of potentially failed mechanics, none of anything I mentioned help to serve this purpose.

So in essence they make the fight more difficult for everyone else only to make it easier for themselves.

Actually that's not true. You can outheal almost everything so getting more support makes mechanics that don't wipe you instant actually easier regardless how often they happen. The only thing that matters are the pulls you need to kill the boss. If you kill everything first try it doesn't matter if you run the optimal setup or not.

[Zlater.6789]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Zlater.6789 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:How is any of that concerning?

That's a really good question. And that's something I'm really interested in hearing the community answer.

One thing I am concerned about is these people thinking they are "elite" or that they have some jurisdiction over other people. But actually none of these builds are carry builds, they don't make fights faster and they increase the number of mechanics the squad has to deal with. If there is even a 1% margin of error on a mechanic then someone will be failing it 1 in every 10 instances of it. So by increasing the DPS you decrease the number of potentially failed mechanics, none of anything I mentioned help to serve this purpose.

So in essence they make the fight more difficult for everyone else only to make it easier for themselves.

You can outheal almost everything.

VG: Getting ported by bluesGorseval: World EaterSab: Flame walls and missed cannons bombing the platformSloth: Poison and massive boon conversion from evolved slubsEscort: Mines and wargsKC: Missing greens or not not phasing with 5 riftsXera: 99 stacks of derangementMO: Spikes or lol trying to our heal the floor tiles because soldiers are upDemios: OilsSH: Walls or Red from GolemsDhuum: Dips, or Messengers

[Vinceman.4572]

I haven't seen anyone bragging about being "elite" while they were playing double heal druid in raids or anything mentioned from the above. Either way who cares about that. ^^And it also doesn't matter if there are healer only players or dps only players as long as a group/squad agrees to the tactic and play together as a functional team.

Subjective fun fact, everytime I'm not playing heal druid in CMs my pug groups (100+ KP, often with very seriously playing ppl from well-known guilds) have more downstates compared to when I'm playing it. Several people do not know when to safe and when to use CA not to speak of lacking double cc pet or wrong spirits.
Btw. although my druid is not geared like that discretize.eu recommends "Boon druid" as meta build with minstrel and cleric pieces! (https://discretize.eu/builds/ranger/boon-druid).

Last but not least I have played every challenging encounter in GW2 so far and still need to meet that single one where it is risky to have one more defensively geared player than usual. Siax? No problem since the intermediate phase isn't hard to deal with. DPS players already can chill out because they get their illusion down very fast. Other CM bosses are phased correctly and in time anyways no matter if you use defensive gear on druid or chrono. Same in raids, actually some encounters can be fought way smoother during the weekly routine if your supports are a little bit more defensive resulting in 0 downstates and full dps on the other classes. Overall you still need to know what you are doing, slacking as chrono or druid is not an option and won't help at all like a dps player with 4k on average.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Zlater.6789 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Zlater.6789 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:How is any of that concerning?

That's a really good question. And that's something I'm really interested in hearing the community answer.

One thing I am concerned about is these people thinking they are "elite" or that they have some jurisdiction over other people. But actually none of these builds are carry builds, they don't make fights faster and they increase the number of mechanics the squad has to deal with. If there is even a 1% margin of error on a mechanic then someone will be failing it 1 in every 10 instances of it. So by increasing the DPS you decrease the number of potentially failed mechanics, none of anything I mentioned help to serve this purpose.

So in essence they make the fight more difficult for everyone else only to make it easier for themselves.

You can outheal almost everything

that don't wipe you instant

.

VG: Getting ported by bluesGorseval: World EaterSab: Flame walls and missed cannons bombing the platformSloth: Poison and massive boon conversion from evolved slubsEscort: Mines and wargsKC: Missing greens or not not phasing with 5 riftsXera: 99 stacks of derangementMO: Spikes or lol trying to our heal the floor tiles because soldiers are upDemios: OilsSH: Walls or Red from GolemsDhuum: Dips, or Messengers

Please quote correctly. I said mechanics that don't kill instantly. Also missing cannons at sabetha can be outhealed if you don't miss every odd cannon. Mursaat floor titles can be outhealed with condition removal. Deimos black can be outhealed. KC can still be killed without phasing it with 5 rifts. You can actually outheal wargs at escort. They need two hits to kill Glenna. Getting ported at VG can be outhealed unless you skip green. Everything else are instant kills.

[Xantaria.8726]

I agree with the others. No offense but if you dont like such groups, dont join them. The damage of groups is overall higher since raids started, so running more defensive doesnt matter anymore.As you said, the higher the dmg, the less mechanics have to be done. However, if ppl are to inexpirienced , die constantly from wrong positioning or drop below 90% hp as a power class, its better to take one more druid.In the end everyone needs to know themself (as the commander and as a joiner) if they want to run with such a setup, and if not those should open their own LFG, stating their prefered setup.

[zealex.9410]

Gear, comps and experience go hand to hand. But id me interested in what exp groups have terrible bs, run misntrel chronos, And double druid. I mean i guess prob someone might want a second druid idk id assume 1 is enough nowdays.

[Brynioch.1873]

@zealex.9410 said:Gear, comps and experience go hand to hand. But id me interested in what exp groups have terrible bs, run misntrel chronos, And double druid. I mean i guess prob someone might want a second druid idk id assume 1 is enough nowdays.

There are bosses where double druid is optimal. But not for healing rather utility and CC.

[Feanor.2358]

@Zlater.6789 said:

@"Miellyn.6847" said:How is any of that concerning?

That's a really good question. And that's something I'm really interested in hearing the community answer.

One thing I am concerned about is these people thinking they are "elite" or that they have some jurisdiction over other people. But actually none of these builds are carry builds, they don't make fights faster and they increase the number of mechanics the squad has to deal with. If there is even a 1% margin of error on a mechanic then someone will be failing it 1 in every 10 instances of it. So by increasing the DPS you decrease the number of potentially failed mechanics, none of anything I mentioned help to serve this purpose.

So in essence they make the fight more difficult for everyone else only to make it easier for themselves.

That's some heavy jumping to conclusions here.

First off, why would you think these people think of themselves as "elite"?

Second, not all groups have good enough execution for the "speed equals safety" to hold true everywhere. In my static for instance, we usually phase Xera on 75/50 without moving her. So there we rely on group dps for safety. But at the same time we run three healers on Matthias, just because we can outheal everything he throws at us. It works for us and we're interested in neither speed kills, nor "doing things as elite does". So we just keep doing it our way. You're free to disagree, but I'm fairly sure we can hard carry 1 or 2 players through that fight like this, even if they /gg at the start.

[Zlater.6789]

@"zealex.9410" said:Gear, comps and experience go hand to hand. But id me interested in what exp groups have terrible bs, run misntrel chronos, And double druid. I mean i guess prob someone might want a second druid idk id assume 1 is enough nowdays.

Well you're exactly right, I wonder the same thing. Really this is just my observation on how the landscape is slowly changing. It feels to me like we (just overall) aren't that interested pushing the envelope as individuals anymore. I notice that this is especially true when we consider support players and their personal contribution to damage, usually its palmed off with the excuse "x doesn't really do much damage anyway." We have already seen sort of thing said in this thread.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Zlater.6789 said:

@"Miellyn.6847" said:How is any of that concerning?

That's a really good question. And that's something I'm really interested in hearing the community answer.

One thing I am concerned about is these people thinking they are "elite" or that they have some jurisdiction over other people. But actually none of these builds are carry builds, they don't make fights faster and they increase the number of mechanics the squad has to deal with. If there is even a 1% margin of error on a mechanic then someone will be failing it 1 in every 10 instances of it. So by increasing the DPS you decrease the number of potentially failed mechanics, none of anything I mentioned help to serve this purpose.

So in essence they make the fight more difficult for everyone else only to make it easier for themselves.

That's some heavy jumping to conclusions here.

First off, why would you think these people think of themselves as "elite"?

Second, not all groups have good enough execution for the "speed equals safety" to hold true everywhere. In my static for instance, we usually phase Xera on 75/50 without moving her. So there we rely on group dps for safety. But at the same time we run three healers on Matthias, just because we can outheal everything he throws at us. It works for us and we're interested in neither speed kills, nor "doing things as elite does". So we just keep doing it our way. You're free to disagree, but I'm fairly sure we can hard carry 1 or 2 players through that fight like this, even if they /gg at the start.

I'm just making a broad observation and expressing concern. I think you see it too, so I'm just wondering how you feel about it. Thanks for your contribution.

[Feanor.2358]

@Zlater.6789 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Gear, comps and experience go hand to hand. But id me interested in what exp groups have terrible bs, run misntrel chronos, And double druid. I mean i guess prob someone might want a second druid idk id assume 1 is enough nowdays.

Well you're exactly right, I wonder the same thing. Really this is just my observation on how the landscape is slowly changing. It feels to me like we (just overall) aren't that interested pushing the envelope as individuals anymore.

Players will generally push only as far as the content pushes them. There are the notable exceptions, of course, the people who seek the greater challenge and do speeds or low-mans. But you can't expect the same attitude from the playerbase as a whole. I don't think this is a matter of concern, just a fact of life. If you, personally, want more, then great! Do it. Push, find your limits, or maybe the game's limits. You can even try to convince some friends to do the same. But that's as far as you can go in this regard. You can't expect to affect complete strangers.

[Dadnir.5038]

A thread trying to shift the nomad meme into a Minstrel meme... interesting.Minstrel is fine, especially if you are not sure about how your group will perform which is almost always the case in PuG groups.

[Rhys.9706]

If something functionally works is it concerning? As for your observation to help out we run in our static:1 minstrel tank1 harriers chrono1 bs condi1 condi dps1 druid healsFill whatever here with mostly weavers but a holo too

From our experience of playing together this is how we usually play comfortably on our usual runs. Maybe your concern is more down to pugs, statics usually either comp to be best dps or they comp to a position they can play comfortably and enjoy themselves. As for helping your observation about fractals the reason why i keep my harriers gear on is for 2 reasons:

I dont want to have another ascended set in my bag when the one im wearing currently has proven to work for raids (PVE in general)

You may get inexperienced players or players who find difficulty with mechanics and the extra healing and aegis it applies from wells or playing chaos staff chrono has been a huge help to me and teamates.

Hope it helps!

[AnariiUK.7409]

I'm actually really happy when I see a Druid with Minstrel's stats available. Harriers has its advantages (Very slightly higher damage and very slightly better stability uptime for arcane weavers) but it's far worse than Minstrel's in nearly every other aspect. I cry inside every time I see people running full Harriers at Matthias, Cairn or Dhuum etc. Condi/power druid are of course better for massively min-maxed runs, but I get the feeling you're talking more about guild/pug full clears.

Not to mention Minstrel's Druid being an absolute beast for low-man runs.

[Henry.5713]

There is a huge difference between a well played Minstrel Druid or Chronomancer and a underperforming Banner Slave. One is just playing badly.Stacking four Minstrel Supports is certainly not required but neither does it hurt you unless your goal is to top speedclear records. You are still able to beat any DPS checks easily if the five damage dealers plus BS you bring are up to par. You even get to laugh at some cases of missed mechanics which would put other groups into trouble.

Can't say I disagree with the need to master multiple roles. The number of players who have done so is rather small, however. Most can kind of play everything but have yet to master a single role or even build. I prefer to take masters of one over masters of none who insists on swapping from one build they are mediocre on to the next one they are underperforming at.Minstrel Druid is hardly the most efficient build even if you intend is to min-max the support as far as possible. There are multiple combinations between gear which are far better than Minstrel, combinations which are far better than full Harrier also. And no, you do not need two of these. But they are still preferable over a Viper build in many cases due their effect on maintaining the Scholar buff the majority of DPS builds use these days. The very reason why I play such builds.

[Obtena.7952]

@Zlater.6789 said:Hi guys, I've been watching and observing and lately I've been making some observations that are really concerning. What is most concerning is that these observations do not apply only to pugs, but very much to some experienced raid statics as well.

1. Healer only players.
2. Banner Slave Warriors doing terrible DPS.
3. Double Healing Druid Comps in wings 1-4.
4. Non-tanking chronos using minstrels.
5. Druids using minstrels.

This isn't applicable to raids only though, in fractals I observe:

1. Minstrel Chronomancers
2. Healing Tempests
3. Shaman's Scourges (ok this sort of thing has always been a problem with necros)

Guys are we really ok with this? Am I the only one seeing this more now than ever, or am I crazy?

Wait a minute! Are you saying there are OTHER ways to do content that AREN'T the accepted meta? Oh noes!!! People playing how they want? Finding other solutions for PVE content? Sounds like we need some action FAST!

[Zlater.6789]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Zlater.6789 said:Hi guys, I've been watching and observing and lately I've been making some observations that are really concerning. What is most concerning is that these observations do not apply only to pugs, but very much to some experienced raid statics as well.

1. Healer only players.
2. Banner Slave Warriors doing terrible DPS.
3. Double Healing Druid Comps in wings 1-4.
4. Non-tanking chronos using minstrels.
5. Druids using minstrels.

This isn't applicable to raids only though, in fractals I observe:

1. Minstrel Chronomancers
2. Healing Tempests
3. Shaman's Scourges (ok this sort of thing has always been a problem with necros)

Guys are we really ok with this? Am I the only one seeing this more now than ever, or am I crazy?

Wait a minute! Are you saying there are OTHER ways to do content that AREN'T the accepted meta? Oh noes!!! People playing how they want? Finding other solutions for PVE content? Sounds like we need some action FAST!

I think you misread because what you're saying doesn't make any sense. I very much notice myself that minstrels is becoming or has already become the meta.

Then I pose a question, are you ok with minstrels becoming the meta?

[ArthurDent.9538]

Personally I only get triggered by it in groups that also bitch about mildly off meta DPS classes like power thief, rev, and necro. Not willing to accept DPS builds that can benchmark within a few k of popular builds like Holo and dh while running multiple minstrel supports on a fight without even a dedicated tank is quite frankly hypocritical in my opinion.

[Nephalem.8921]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:Personally I only get triggered by it in groups that also kitten about mildly off meta DPS classes like power thief, rev, and necro. Not willing to accept DPS builds that can benchmark within a few k of popular builds like Holo and dh while running multiple minstrel supports on a fight without even a dedicated tank is quite frankly hypocritical in my opinion.

Power thief, rev and necro would be just slightly worse than holo if played well. Problem is that usually only inexperienced players play those builds. Same with slb so they end with trash dps most of the time.I've never seen a good pug soulbeast while in theory they should have decent dps on almost all bosses.

Running multiple supports on some bosses makes them even harder like gorseval or sabetha. If chronos and druids try to dps there you gain dps worth of 1 player minimum. Sab has fewer cannons and this means fewer chances to fail.

But there is a place for minstrel tank. Bosses like xera/deimos where they need to sustain themselves when healer gets ported. Or bosses that just deal a lot of damage like SH.

[Zlater.6789]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:Personally I only get triggered by it in groups that also kitten about mildly off meta DPS classes like power thief, rev, and necro. Not willing to accept DPS builds that can benchmark within a few k of popular builds like Holo and dh while running multiple minstrel supports on a fight without even a dedicated tank is quite frankly hypocritical in my opinion.

I think thats a very fair observation. The DPS difference between a second healing druid and a second condition druid is, in my experience somewhere around 8-10K. It's even more when replace it with a condi support renegade.

So do you think it's more fair to poke the elitism stick at a dps doing 5k below the others, only to completely ignore the redundant second healer who could be contributing at least an extra 8k to the group dps themselves?

How do we feel about getting toxic at the staff thief when we have a chronomancer that could easily be contributing more than the difference between the thief and the other dps?

[Vinceman.4572]

The problem is a lot of groups cannot handle bosses with having a condition + a healing druid. The pressure is too much for them so the 2nd healer becomes mandatory. I mean yeah, there are bosses where it really doesn't matter like Mursaat Overseer but there are enough pugs and statics with lots of roster changes that need a 2nd heal druid on encounters like Sloth, Sabetha or VG (ignoring greens completely) for example.

[LadyKitty.6120]

Apparently Kitty's a really, really bad person. She likes to use memestrel's on both druid and chrono even if she's not tanking for extra boon duration, extra tankiness to survive to save the day when things go 120% south and she also likes to have a healer druid+a healer in her groups to further make kills safer. And at some bosses, she even dares bring 3rd healer to reduce the chance of wiping to a minimum.

And what's worse, Kitty also teaches "rather excessive than lacking support" until people feel so comfy supporting that they could start going towards more offensive as long as support doesn't start lacking. Kitty also likes to emphasize that mechanics first, dps second. Seems to work as training groups get kills in a few pulls and even one-shot Sammy without any deaths due to fastest CC Kitty's seen (while most of the squad hadn't even seen Sam before).