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Chronophantasma - Time it Takes to Spawn a Clone


Fay.2735
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I've been getting increasingly more frustrated with how Chronophantasma works now. I like the phantasm changes overall (I actually love getting to use shatters now) but as a Support Chrono in raids, using CP is like pulling teeth to me. It takes a good ~10 something seconds for a clone to spawn. I don't run a build that is focused on clone-generating so if I want to use CP and do my Continuum rotation, I have to sit there for what feels like a century to wait for enough clones to turn up.

But then by the time I have three clones up, more often than not, things are either already dead, I can only do a part rotation, or I have to wait forever to finally get to do my full rotation (losing precious DPS time). Constantly not getting to do my full rotation and pulling teeth to get my clones up in general feels very frustrating, not fun, and very unsatisfying to me. I also don't think it's reasonable to have to keep track of these invisible internal ~10s timers that all vary, I already have enough to pay attention to during raids.

I had the impression this change was supposed to make Phantasm focused builds compatible with our class mechanic but I feel that having the ~10s clone spawn rate on CP (a phantasm focused trait) completely goes against the whole point of the phantasm change. Sure, I can just not use CP, not do a full rotation to start with, or get more clone generation in my build etc. etc. etc. but that defeats the point I'm trying to make here. If it was me, I'd change CP so a clone spawns after the first phantasm dies or after a set amount of time (that is much shorter than ~10s).

Does anyone else feel this way about using Chronophantasma when using it with builds that do not generate many clones? Surely I can't be alone in feeling it's annoying to work with...

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Yes. Getting the clones to spawn and being forced to rely on the clone-spawn to shatter takes more time than I'd like. To gain the three clones, I have to switch from greatsword to sword and back or wait for the phantasms to cycle, both taking more time than is really workable, particularly in wvw or pvp. Ten to twelve seconds is just too long. Usually you're dead or the foe is dead. PvE is a different environment. Battles often last much longer. So pretty much clones and shatter become useless in wvw/pvp as a damage producing element.

But, I imagine they wanted to nerf shatter in those two modes to silence to outcry...sad.

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This is like complaining about how picking Inspiration over Dueling does less damage.

I wouldn't necessarily mind if they started buffing Mesmer even more but from a realistic view point, a delay on clone production is worth the strength, fun and synergy Chronophantasma provides. Its not like their isn't a shatter focused trait in the same slot.

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Honestly I would rather see CP redesigned so that you lose the clone, in exchange for getting a second attack from the phantasm. That's more than enough tradeoff in my opinion, and it would really make CP an actual choice depending on your build and goal instead of the goto pick.

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@OriOri.8724 said:Honestly I would rather see CP redesigned so that you lose the clone, in exchange for getting a second attack from the phantasm. That's more than enough tradeoff in my opinion, and it would really make CP an actual choice depending on your build and goal instead of the goto pick.

It's actually not a go to pick anymore, since your rotation gets really clunky with a slower phantasm start, and Illusion less (lacks Phantasmal Haste) builds actually prefer using Quickness on Shatter.

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@Refia Montes.3205 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:Honestly I would rather see CP redesigned so that you lose the clone, in exchange for getting a second attack from the phantasm. That's more than enough tradeoff in my opinion, and it would really make CP an actual choice depending on your build and goal instead of the goto pick.

It's actually not a go to pick anymore, since your rotation gets really clunky with a slower phantasm start, and Illusion less (lacks Phantasmal Haste) builds actually prefer using Quickness on Shatter.

Right, but the proposed change would take it right back to always being the goto pick, because it will always be useful. Yea, quickness on shatter is nice, but in most situations you already have access to quickness anyway, and there isn't really a place where this outshines having an extra attack from phantasms (except possibly raids), and lost time, despite its buffs, is still pretty useless. So the change would make it overpowered compared to the other 2 GMs.

Getting 2 attacks out of every phantasm skill, or 4 berserkers with imagined burden, is more than enough tradeoff to justify not obtaining a clone out of those skills period in my opinion. I know not everyone agrees, but I would rather see the trait changed in this manner.

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@Erinah.6782 said:

@serialkicker.5274 said:I agree. I like the changes, but clone generation for support purposes is quite an issue now.

Interesting that nobody is even considering using Scepter instead of a Sword to solve this problem. This solution keeps your traits and utilities pretty much intact.

Not really. Sword does more damage and more damage means faster kills more dps.

Scepter really needs some buffs to put it on par with sword and ax. Sword does better power damage and ax does better condi damage. No reason to take scepter.

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@OriOri.8724 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:Honestly I would rather see CP redesigned so that you lose the clone, in exchange for getting a second attack from the phantasm. That's more than enough tradeoff in my opinion, and it would really make CP an actual choice depending on your build and goal instead of the goto pick.

It's actually not a go to pick anymore, since your rotation gets really clunky with a slower phantasm start, and Illusion less (lacks Phantasmal Haste) builds actually prefer using Quickness on Shatter.

Right, but the proposed change would take it right back to always being the goto pick, because it will always be useful. Yea, quickness on shatter is nice, but in most situations you already have access to quickness anyway, and there isn't really a place where this outshines having an extra attack from phantasms (except possibly raids), and lost time, despite its buffs, is still pretty useless. So the change would make it overpowered compared to the other 2 GMs.

Getting 2 attacks out of every phantasm skill, or 4 berserkers with imagined burden, is more than enough tradeoff to justify not obtaining a clone out of those skills period in my opinion. I know not everyone agrees, but I would rather see the trait changed in this manner.

I agree, but I think the current iteration of Chronophantasma is perfect as is. Chrono will suffer too much losing clone generation from Phantasm skills. Its dps build in raids will suffer a lot by not having clones from Phantasms to Mind Wrack with, same with Support Chrono. I'd say buff Lost Time and Seize the Moment instead since I think having a delayed clone is already a big nuisance in most scenarios.

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@Jace al Thor.6745 said:

@serialkicker.5274 said:I agree. I like the changes, but clone generation for support purposes is quite an issue now.

Interesting that nobody is even considering using Scepter instead of a Sword to solve this problem. This solution keeps your traits and utilities pretty much intact.

Not really. Sword does more damage and more damage means faster kills more dps.

Scepter really needs some buffs to put it on par with sword and ax. Sword does better power damage and ax does better condi damage. No reason to take scepter.

Scepter generates clones way faster than any of those weapons. It's a trade-off.Isn't support Chrono about, you know... support? If you need clones to properly fulfill that role, it seems like a solid choice.

It was always really strange to me that people often opted for things like Berserker gear or solutions that make rotations significantly more complicated (or even excruciating at times) for a marginal damage gain on a support character.

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@Erinah.6782 said:

@serialkicker.5274 said:I agree. I like the changes, but clone generation for support purposes is quite an issue now.

Interesting that nobody is even considering using Scepter instead of a Sword to solve this problem. This solution keeps your traits and utilities pretty much intact.

Not really. Sword does more damage and more damage means faster kills more dps.

Scepter really needs some buffs to put it on par with sword and ax. Sword does better power damage and ax does better condi damage. No reason to take scepter.

Scepter generates clones way faster than any of those weapons. It's a trade-off.Isn't support Chrono about, you know... support? If you need clones to properly fulfill that role, it seems like a solid choice.

It was always really strange to me that people often opted for things like Berserker gear or solutions that make rotations significantly more complicated (or even excruciating at times) for a marginal damage gain on a support character.

I mean I get what you’re saying but the fact is people have tested weapon sets, etc to determine that double Sword is the best to use. If you know what you’re supposed to do there’s no reason not to run berserker gear. @Pyroatheist.9031 was having a discussion about rune choice earlier and if you’re running certain things you can do more dps.Pyro can also go into more depth about the reasons why, granted you might not like how he replies at time.

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@Refia Montes.3205 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:Honestly I would rather see CP redesigned so that you lose the clone, in exchange for getting a second attack from the phantasm. That's more than enough tradeoff in my opinion, and it would really make CP an actual choice depending on your build and goal instead of the goto pick.

It's actually not a go to pick anymore, since your rotation gets really clunky with a slower phantasm start, and Illusion less (lacks Phantasmal Haste) builds actually prefer using Quickness on Shatter.

Right, but the proposed change would take it right back to always being the goto pick, because it will always be useful. Yea, quickness on shatter is nice, but in most situations you already have access to quickness anyway, and there isn't really a place where this outshines having an extra attack from phantasms (except possibly raids), and lost time, despite its buffs, is still pretty useless. So the change would make it overpowered compared to the other 2 GMs.

Getting 2 attacks out of every phantasm skill, or 4 berserkers with imagined burden, is more than enough tradeoff to justify not obtaining a clone out of those skills period in my opinion. I know not everyone agrees, but I would rather see the trait changed in this manner.

I agree, but I think the current iteration of Chronophantasma is perfect as is. Chrono will suffer too much losing clone generation from Phantasm skills. Its dps build in raids will suffer a lot by not having clones from Phantasms to Mind Wrack with, same with Support Chrono. I'd say buff Lost Time and Seize the Moment instead since I think having a delayed clone is already a big nuisance in most scenarios.

Again, tradeoffs. The current iteration of chronophantasma just feels bad to play with, it shouldn't stay as it is now honestly. In some situations, chrono would want clone access, and thus wouldn't take CP. That is why this would be a good change, CP would not be a trait that is always taken, because its always better than the alternatives. Making them choose between having CP for more phantasm attacks or having better support via keeping the clone generation and picking another GM is a good design choice.

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@OriOri.8724 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:Honestly I would rather see CP redesigned so that you lose the clone, in exchange for getting a second attack from the phantasm. That's more than enough tradeoff in my opinion, and it would really make CP an actual choice depending on your build and goal instead of the goto pick.

It's actually not a go to pick anymore, since your rotation gets really clunky with a slower phantasm start, and Illusion less (lacks Phantasmal Haste) builds actually prefer using Quickness on Shatter.

Right, but the proposed change would take it right back to always being the goto pick, because it will always be useful. Yea, quickness on shatter is nice, but in most situations you already have access to quickness anyway, and there isn't really a place where this outshines having an extra attack from phantasms (except possibly raids), and lost time, despite its buffs, is still pretty useless. So the change would make it overpowered compared to the other 2 GMs.

Getting 2 attacks out of every phantasm skill, or 4 berserkers with imagined burden, is more than enough tradeoff to justify not obtaining a clone out of those skills period in my opinion. I know not everyone agrees, but I would rather see the trait changed in this manner.

I agree, but I think the current iteration of Chronophantasma is perfect as is. Chrono will suffer too much losing clone generation from Phantasm skills. Its dps build in raids will suffer a lot by not having clones from Phantasms to Mind Wrack with, same with Support Chrono. I'd say buff Lost Time and Seize the Moment instead since I think having a delayed clone is already a big nuisance in most scenarios.

Again, tradeoffs. The current iteration of chronophantasma just feels bad to play with, it shouldn't stay as it is now honestly. In some situations, chrono would want clone access, and thus wouldn't take CP. That is why this would be a good change, CP would not be a trait that is always taken, because its always better than the alternatives. Making them choose between having CP for more phantasm attacks or having better support via keeping the clone generation and picking another GM is a good design choice.

It's not always better than the alternatives. As I said optimized PvE builds use Seize the Moment when there's no source of quick self quickness, (mostly when you dont pick up Phantasmal Haste from Illusions line for example) The most used Chrono build Domi/Inspiration does this for example.

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@Jace al Thor.6745 said:

@serialkicker.5274 said:I agree. I like the changes, but clone generation for support purposes is quite an issue now.

Interesting that nobody is even considering using Scepter instead of a Sword to solve this problem. This solution keeps your traits and utilities pretty much intact.

Not really. Sword does more damage and more damage means faster kills more dps.

Scepter really needs some buffs to put it on par with sword and ax. Sword does better power damage and ax does better condi damage. No reason to take scepter.

Scepter generates clones way faster than any of those weapons. It's a trade-off.Isn't support Chrono about, you know... support? If you need clones to properly fulfill that role, it seems like a solid choice.

It was always really strange to me that people often opted for things like Berserker gear or solutions that make rotations significantly more complicated (or even excruciating at times) for a marginal damage gain on a support character.

I mean I get what you’re saying but the fact is people have tested weapon sets, etc to determine that double Sword is the best to use. If you know what you’re supposed to do there’s no reason not to run berserker gear. @Pyroatheist.9031 was having a discussion about rune choice earlier and if you’re running certain things you can do more dps.Pyro can also go into more depth about the reasons why, granted you might not like how he replies at time.

Well aside from dps, there are a number of attacks that the scepter block just doesn't cut it for, a number of situations where having the leap/swap immob is really nice to have, a couple cases where you really do want that boon strip on autoattack, and a number of situations (read: literally 100% of the time) where you really don't want to saddle yourself with a clunky and annoying weapon.

Edit: As an aside, I have to agree with the thread here. It's annoying and clunky to have to wait ages to get a clone spawned from chronophantasma. It kind of defeats the point of this whole rework where phantasms no longer interfere with clones and shattering. Really the mechanic should just be changed so that all phantasm skills spawn a clone on use, not after the phantasm dissipates and just separate the mechanics entirely that way.

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I think many of the most talented players greatly prefer sword.

I've used scepter for a couple years in wvw roaming. For me, there are a few nice things about it:

  • good clone generation
  • can move while using the #2 block skill (including putting ip block and stepping into aoe)
  • has 900 range (I've never been great at sticking in melee range, and I totally suck at the sword leap/swap

In the end, you have to decide what functions a weapon is performing for you in a build. If you are not playing Mirage, and your primary need from one mainhand slot is clone generation, scepter may be the best option. I agree that it can feel clunky without either quickness or the Malicious Sorcery trait

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@OriOri.8724 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:Honestly I would rather see CP redesigned so that you lose the clone, in exchange for getting a second attack from the phantasm. That's more than enough tradeoff in my opinion, and it would really make CP an actual choice depending on your build and goal instead of the goto pick.

It's actually not a go to pick anymore, since your rotation gets really clunky with a slower phantasm start, and Illusion less (lacks Phantasmal Haste) builds actually prefer using Quickness on Shatter.

Right, but the proposed change would take it right back to always being the goto pick, because it will always be useful. Yea, quickness on shatter is nice, but in most situations you already have access to quickness anyway, and there isn't really a place where this outshines having an extra attack from phantasms (except possibly raids), and lost time, despite its buffs, is still pretty useless. So the change would make it overpowered compared to the other 2 GMs.

Getting 2 attacks out of every phantasm skill, or 4 berserkers with imagined burden, is more than enough tradeoff to justify not obtaining a clone out of those skills period in my opinion. I know not everyone agrees, but I would rather see the trait changed in this manner.

I agree, but I think the current iteration of Chronophantasma is perfect as is. Chrono will suffer too much losing clone generation from Phantasm skills. Its dps build in raids will suffer a lot by not having clones from Phantasms to Mind Wrack with, same with Support Chrono. I'd say buff Lost Time and Seize the Moment instead since I think having a delayed clone is already a big nuisance in most scenarios.

Again, tradeoffs. The current iteration of chronophantasma just feels bad to play with, it shouldn't stay as it is now honestly. In some situations, chrono would want clone access, and thus wouldn't take CP. That is why this would be a good change, CP would not be a trait that is always taken, because its always better than the alternatives. Making them choose between having CP for more phantasm attacks or having better support via keeping the clone generation and picking another GM is a good design choice.

"Chronophantasma is bad so sometimes chrono won't pick it so they should nerf Chronophantasma so that Chronos don't have to pick it"

What?

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@OriOri.8724 said:Honestly I would rather see CP redesigned so that you lose the clone, in exchange for getting a second attack from the phantasm. That's more than enough tradeoff in my opinion, and it would really make CP an actual choice depending on your build and goal instead of the goto pick.

Can you see beyond support part , there is a DPS part as well ,which will be nerfed this so badly this way . With Phantasmal Haste there is no problem keep up the clones for for support part , and dps , and before you say Signet of Illusions it is buged , literaly Creates a clone every few seconds while you are in combat which meens thegenerated clones seek new targeds all time and keep you in combat all time . In SW this is what happend : I killed the mob but for few seconds i was in combat , the signet generated a clone which attacked a nearest thing it was a ambient creature ( the little natural things in every map ) then the other attacked a natural warthog so it is is working as the description say but not in the good way . Cp is a choice to pick btw in support , in dps there isn t any better alternative .

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@Refia Montes.3205 said:

@"OriOri.8724" said:Honestly I would rather see CP redesigned so that you lose the clone, in exchange for getting a second attack from the phantasm. That's more than enough tradeoff in my opinion, and it would really make CP an actual choice depending on your build and goal instead of the goto pick.

It's actually not a go to pick anymore, since your rotation gets really clunky with a slower phantasm start, and Illusion less (lacks Phantasmal Haste) builds actually prefer using Quickness on Shatter.

you are right, but they should not make this skill deliberately clunky and unsatisfying. They should buff a little other options on this level. In every class/profession there should be a flow, a smooth gameplay, and this "daze on respawn" is destroying that...

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Chronophantasma is meant to be a dps trait after the change, and it works as such for power chrono. Support chrono has another option in Seize the Moment, which they currently use. So, both builds have something to choose. A good support chrono can adapt to a 2-second Continuum Split rotation.

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@Theocraft.6053 said:

@"OriOri.8724" said:Honestly I would rather see CP redesigned so that you lose the clone, in exchange for getting a second attack from the phantasm. That's more than enough tradeoff in my opinion, and it would really make CP an actual choice depending on your build and goal instead of the goto pick.

It's actually not a go to pick anymore, since your rotation gets really clunky with a slower phantasm start, and Illusion less (lacks Phantasmal Haste) builds actually prefer using Quickness on Shatter.

you are right, but they should not make this skill deliberately clunky and unsatisfying. They should buff a little other options on this level. In every class/profession there should be a flow, a smooth gameplay, and this "daze on respawn" is destroying that...

while it is clunky for support chrono, on the other hand its really rewarding for Power DPS Chrono as you can have more than 5 Phantasms at a time thanks to this trait. And it feels good when you have tons of them. Feels like bringing an army to the fight. The daze on resummon is there for obvious balance reasons.

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