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Level Scale: Uplevel in PVE


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There is pretty much no chance of upscaling happening. apart from the fact it would prob require a major change, for 0 comparative gain, it completely negates the need for levels at all. We'd have level 1 toons running around in HoT and PoF which is not a healthy addition to the game. This is not a change they will invest time in given the current system has worked pretty much perfectly for 6 years

Downscaling keeps things relevant for when you are at the maximum level and that's an amazing feature. Upscaling does not give the same comparable benefit

Where upscaling works is in competitive modes where only skill and tactical choices should be the defining difference between players

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I've mentioned the scaling a few times. I wonder why we have scaling at all? We could just as well just set all STATS to their 80 numbers from level 1, and leave them there to level 80. So you'd have 1000 power, precision, toughness, vitality from level 1-80. You'd still lack traits, skills, elite, and whatever else you haven't unlocked through leveling, so you'd still be weaker. But not so much weaker than any enemy 1shot you in 80 zones.

It wouldn't even be that difficult to accomplish. Set stats for level 1 to 1000 each, and change tables so no more stat gain for other levels. Disable scaling for players. And just enable scaling of all mobs in maps under 80 up to 80 (upscaling only scales the stats, so no they don't get any better AI or more skills etc).

In any situation where you have same or higher level than the content, this would function exactly the same as it already does. But if you're a lower level than the content, you'll basically be the same as if you where WVW style upscaled. It also had the added benefit of not completely FUBARing the Perception/Critical chance calculations on every single scaling!

Harder areas will still be harder, enemies will have more skills, possibly traits (if they got any) etc. It's still going to be hard to go into Orr maps at level 20, or even 40 when you only have a single trait line. You'd have to actually build pretty much around surviving that.

Note: I'd love to ditch gear level as well.... but I think internets would be burned on the stake... so sure leave it as it is, so people get "some" "stat progression" through gearing.


Regarding PVE Difficulty, nasty can of worms.

I do basically agree, but I also realize that half the population would ragequit if ANet start messing with the Open World Tyria difficulty. Too many people that prefer it the way it is. So my idea is to make a compromise, something for everyone. (TLDR: no one will agree with me)

I wish they added some more small group content around in the maps, this can be as easy as adding 2 or 3 patrolling groups of enemies on a map. For example on Harathi Hinterlands, add 2 or 3 groups of 4-5 enemies that walk around in a set patrol pattern that takes them through most of the centaur areas. Let them use the PVP test dummy AI and setups, thus about same as a player/veteran in stats/hp etc.

Now 5 of those dummies at a time can be hard for most anyone solo, and you would want a group to take it out. A group of 5 average players should be able to take them out with a little trouble. A zerg will naturally have no trouble at all. 2-3 good players can take them out alone.

And if you don't want to fight against them, just follow them, and go in and grab hearts/poi/hp/wp etc behind them, so you don't have to fight them.

(Basically this idea is to get back the old Charr Warbands from GW1, those where awesome to fight against!)


/rant

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@Randulf.7614 said:There is pretty much no chance of upscaling happening. apart from the fact it would prob require a major change, for 0 comparative gain, it completely negates the need for levels at all. We'd have level 1 toons running around in HoT and PoF which is not a healthy addition to the game. This is not a change they will invest time in given the current system has worked pretty much perfectly for 6 years

Downscaling keeps things relevant for when you are at the maximum level and that's an amazing feature. Upscaling does not give the same comparable benefit

Where upscaling works is in competitive modes where only skill and tactical choices should be the defining difference between players

why not healthy? if the level 1 get to 80, he still can play in beginner area because his level will be lower...beginner map is boring if the player already has countless toons....

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@"joneirikb.7506" said:I've mentioned the scaling a few times. I wonder why we have scaling at all? We could just as well just set all STATS to their 80 numbers from level 1, and leave them there to level 80. So you'd have 1000 power, precision, toughness, vitality from level 1-80. You'd still lack traits, skills, elite, and whatever else you haven't unlocked through leveling, so you'd still be weaker. But not so much weaker than any enemy 1shot you in 80 zones.

It wouldn't even be that difficult to accomplish. Set stats for level 1 to 1000 each, and change tables so no more stat gain for other levels. Disable scaling for players. And just enable scaling of all mobs in maps under 80 up to 80 (upscaling only scales the stats, so no they don't get any better AI or more skills etc).

In any situation where you have same or higher level than the content, this would function exactly the same as it already does. But if you're a lower level than the content, you'll basically be the same as if you where WVW style upscaled. It also had the added benefit of not completely FUBARing the Perception/Critical chance calculations on every single scaling!

Harder areas will still be harder, enemies will have more skills, possibly traits (if they got any) etc. It's still going to be hard to go into Orr maps at level 20, or even 40 when you only have a single trait line. You'd have to actually build pretty much around surviving that.

Note: I'd love to ditch gear level as well.... but I think internets would be burned on the stake... so sure leave it as it is, so people get "some" "stat progression" through gearing.


Regarding PVE Difficulty, nasty can of worms.

I do basically agree, but I also realize that half the population would ragequit if ANet start messing with the Open World Tyria difficulty. Too many people that prefer it the way it is. So my idea is to make a compromise, something for everyone. (TLDR: no one will agree with me)

I wish they added some more small group content around in the maps, this can be as easy as adding 2 or 3 patrolling groups of enemies on a map. For example on Harathi Hinterlands, add 2 or 3 groups of 4-5 enemies that walk around in a set patrol pattern that takes them through most of the centaur areas. Let them use the PVP test dummy AI and setups, thus about same as a player/veteran in stats/hp etc.

Now 5 of those dummies at a time can be hard for most anyone solo, and you would want a group to take it out. A group of 5 average players should be able to take them out with a little trouble. A zerg will naturally have no trouble at all. 2-3 good players can take them out alone.

And if you don't want to fight against them, just follow them, and go in and grab hearts/poi/hp/wp etc behind them, so you don't have to fight them.

(Basically this idea is to get back the old Charr Warbands from GW1, those where awesome to fight against!)


/rant

we still need level. mmorpg must have level.

example you are level 2, playing in lv 75-80 area. u get uplevel to 75 (lowest). only your stats, not skill/abilities. meaning u are weaker compared to natural level 75 player that have more abilities and more stats+ with lv 75 equipment.

monster difficulty.

let say player is level 2, newbie equipment (lowest eq) and leveling at lv 75-80 area

  1. easy (u can defeat it 1v1, but probably lose if 1v3)
  2. normal (50% chance to win 1v1, but lose if get 1v2)
  3. hard (need 2-3 player like u)
  4. very hard (need 5 player like u)
  5. legendary (10 player like u)

so if u progress and wear a better equipment, u can do better, againts those monster, example u wear full exotic, u can defeat 'very hard' mob alone..

and this types of monster will be on every map...so if u level 80 (wear ascended eq) and leveling at level 2-area, u can do outnumbered fight against 'very hard mobs' like 1v2

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That would be equivalent to simply eliminating levels altogether. The idea that at the beginning of your story you are already equipped (skill-wise) to confront the world's toughest challenges just doesn't make a lot of sense. There's plenty to do at low level and you level so fast that to me this is just not an issue.

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@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:They looked at upleveling before launch (it might have been only when in a party with a higher level player) but decided against it. I doubt they would put up leveling of any kind at this late date as it would require a rework of so much of the game.

not late. see how long wow goes...gw2 has better graphic and gameplay...just pve need level scaleing to rework abit

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@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:They looked at upleveling before launch (it might have been only when in a party with a higher level player) but decided against it. I doubt they would put up leveling of any kind at this late date as it would require a rework of so much of the game.

YEah, you had to be in the party with a person and you'd get upscaled. That was in during even some of the later BWEs. But honestly it doesn't really work. Imagine going to Orr with lvl 80 stats, but no traits and only 1 weapon skill and healing skill, you'd die in 3 seconds.And because a lot of people are utter morons (see people that use lvl 80 boosts, make a utter crap because they didn't have the time to learn, hate the game for their mistake, and quit) you'd have lvl 1 idiots going to lvl 80 areas, get trashed, and quit.So for every one's sake, lets not go where OP wants to go just because he "don't wanna level up my char".

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While I'm a fan of downleveling to keep things at least interesting (even if not a challenge), I dont think upscaling is a good idea. A random new player can wander into a high level zone and deal with mobs with mechanics they arent ready for. Also if you do not want to keep doing the same starting zone over and over... why not just use scrolls, level 80 boosts which you get every expansion or tomes of knowledge to get you to the level range you prefer?

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@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:They looked at upleveling before launch (it might have been only when in a party with a higher level player) but decided against it. I doubt they would put up leveling of any kind at this late date as it would require a rework of so much of the game.

YEah, you had to be in the party with a person and you'd get upscaled. That was in during even some of the later BWEs. But honestly it doesn't really work. Imagine going to Orr with lvl 80 stats, but no traits and only 1 weapon skill and healing skill, you'd die in 3 seconds.And because a lot of people are utter morons (see people that use lvl 80 boosts, make a utter crap because they didn't have the time to learn, hate the game for their mistake, and quit) you'd have lvl 1 idiots going to lvl 80 areas, get trashed, and quit.So for every one's sake, lets not go where OP wants to go just because he "don't wanna level up my char".

lol..pve is easy ....auto attack also win spam some skill 2 easy win

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@nerovergil.5408 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:They looked at upleveling before launch (it might have been only when in a party with a higher level player) but decided against it. I doubt they would put up leveling of any kind at this late date as it would require a rework of so much of the game.

not late. see how long wow goes...gw2 has better graphic and gameplay...just pve need level scaleing to rework abit

I gather you want to level and don’t have tomes. You do know that you can level a char through crafting don’t you? Get a crafting guide to do it efficiently and you can hit level 400 in each crafting profession and you’ll be in the 70s iirc and level 80 will be easy enough to reach.

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@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:They looked at upleveling before launch (it might have been only when in a party with a higher level player) but decided against it. I doubt they would put up leveling of any kind at this late date as it would require a rework of so much of the game.

YEah, you had to be in the party with a person and you'd get upscaled. That was in during even some of the later BWEs. But honestly it doesn't really work. Imagine going to Orr with lvl 80 stats, but no traits and only 1 weapon skill and healing skill, you'd die in 3 seconds.And because a lot of people are utter morons (see people that use lvl 80 boosts, make a utter crap because they didn't have the time to learn, hate the game for their mistake, and quit) you'd have lvl 1 idiots going to lvl 80 areas, get trashed, and quit.So for every one's sake, lets not go where OP wants to go just because he "don't wanna level up my char".

Of course there’s another problem with upleveling tied to being in a party.A new level 2 parties up with a level 80 and they make a trip to a level 80 area. Then the level 80 logs off or leaves the party and the new player is stranded in a high level map and doesn’t know how to get back to where he was. He may not even have the coin to waypoint across the whole game to return to the starting map.And you just know that someone is going to do this sooner or later.

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@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:They looked at upleveling before launch (it might have been only when in a party with a higher level player) but decided against it. I doubt they would put up leveling of any kind at this late date as it would require a rework of so much of the game.

YEah, you had to be in the party with a person and you'd get upscaled. That was in during even some of the later BWEs. But honestly it doesn't really work. Imagine going to Orr with lvl 80 stats, but no traits and only 1 weapon skill and healing skill, you'd die in 3 seconds.And because a lot of people are utter morons (see people that use lvl 80 boosts, make a utter crap because they didn't have the time to learn, hate the game for their mistake, and quit) you'd have lvl 1 idiots going to lvl 80 areas, get trashed, and quit.So for every one's sake, lets not go where OP wants to go just because he "don't wanna level up my char".

Of course there’s another problem with upleveling tied to being in a party.A new level 2 parties up with a level 80 and they make a trip to a level 80 area. Then the level 80 logs off or leaves the party and the new player is stranded in a high level map and doesn’t know how to get back to where he was. He may not even have the coin to waypoint across the whole game to return to the starting map.And you just know that someone is going to do this sooner or later.

lol that would be funny as hell.. But they wouldn't get stranded, really. The costs of teleport scale with levels. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't really be stranded. Plus, i've done the trek from LA to Sparkfly Fen with several lvl 2 characters back in 2012 to unlock the Halloween back on them. Doing it from Orr wouldn't be that much worse.It could be problematic with PoF maps, since they don't have a in-world connection to the core maps, unlike HoT.

I'm not defending upleveling though, just pointing it out that this particular scenario wouldn't be as catastrophic as you make it seem.

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@nerovergil.5408 said:why not healthy? if the level 1 get to 80, he still can play in beginner area because his level will be lower...beginner map is boring if the player already has countless toons....

How many people complain because HoT maps are too hard after using the level 80 boost and being given a level 80 character with exotic armor? Now imagine that new player wandering into a HoT map with a level 20 character in green armor missing most of their abilities... yea, that sounds like a plan for success...

Older players have birthday level scrolls, leveling tomes, and money to pay for crafting if they want to level up fast. Best part is if you are short you can play your level 80 to gather what you need to level your alt!

Also not to be too cynical, but if you were upleveled, what motivation would people have to purchase that level 80 boost item off the gem store?:P

@ovinnik.9216 said:ESO has upscaling, and I immensely disliked it. The world felt flat and unchallenging, nothing was an actual threat. Leveling up felt unrewarding, as if your character was actually growing weaker. So ... no thanks.

Yea, I have a love/hate relationship with the way ESO did their level scaling system. On one hand I do like that it lets you play with friends anywhere at any level. But on the other hand it is annoying when you actually get weaker as you level due to them overbuffing low levels. Nothing worse than seeing that your newly created purple CP160 gear gives you worse stats than you had when you were level 10 running around in junk looted items:P I'm fine with them level scaling low levels, but you should be level scaled in a way that leaves you weaker than a proper leveled player rather than stronger.

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@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:They looked at upleveling before launch (it might have been only when in a party with a higher level player) but decided against it. I doubt they would put up leveling of any kind at this late date as it would require a rework of so much of the game.

YEah, you had to be in the party with a person and you'd get upscaled. That was in during even some of the later BWEs. But honestly it doesn't really work. Imagine going to Orr with lvl 80 stats, but no traits and only 1 weapon skill and healing skill, you'd die in 3 seconds.And because a lot of people are utter morons (see people that use lvl 80 boosts, make a utter crap because they didn't have the time to learn, hate the game for their mistake, and quit) you'd have lvl 1 idiots going to lvl 80 areas, get trashed, and quit.So for every one's sake, lets not go where OP wants to go just because he "don't wanna level up my char".

Of course there’s another problem with upleveling tied to being in a party.A new level 2 parties up with a level 80 and they make a trip to a level 80 area. Then the level 80 logs off or leaves the party and the new player is stranded in a high level map and doesn’t know how to get back to where he was. He may not even have the coin to waypoint across the whole game to return to the starting map.And you just know that someone is going to do this sooner or later.

lol that would be funny as hell.. But they wouldn't get stranded, really. The costs of teleport scale with levels. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't really be stranded. Plus, i've done the trek from LA to Sparkfly Fen with several lvl 2 characters back in 2012 to unlock the Halloween back on them. Doing it from Orr wouldn't be that much worse.It could be problematic with PoF maps, since they don't have a in-world connection to the core maps, unlike HoT.

I'm not defending upleveling though, just pointing it out that this particular scenario wouldn't be as catastrophic as you make it seem.

I did say may not have the coins, not would not. But I was more pointing out that a new person suddenly downleveled and abandoned in a high level map in an unfamiliar game and an unfamiliar map could have difficulty figuring out where they were and how to get back to the starting map.

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Considering GW2 doesn't lock you out of areas beyond your level, you can still go to zones that are 10, 20, 30, 40+ levels beyond you. Just expect to dodge constantly, have prolonged fights, and get insta-killed.

There is a degree of upscaling in WvW, but it's really not enough. If you're below 80, you are still extremely squishy and hit as hard as a wet sponge because you don't have all traits unlocked and are still running around in greens and blues. Unless PvE upscaling made you on par with an 80, thereby negating the point of leveling, it would be the exact same. People would run into areas and fight mobs that are far beyond them, get frustrated at how "hard" GW2 is, and quit.

There's already plenty of people who have quit because HoT had a learning curve and PoF is said to have really annoying enemies because mobs actually pose a threat if you stand still, no point making core the same. Lack of upleveling makes sense for the personal story, gives people something to work on, introduces people to various things at a gradual pace instead of tossing them in a lake and expecting them to swim or die, and prevents them from frustrating themselves to the point of quitting because they refused to learn the basics.

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There is one place in this game where a lower leveled player is upleveled to 80 if they're partied with level 80s and its fractals. I only know this because I've been forced to party with all sorts of low level chars on a few occasions because 'they wanted to join to get xp' le sigh.

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@"nerovergil.5408" said:we still need level. mmorpg must have level.

example you are level 2, playing in lv 75-80 area. u get uplevel to 75 (lowest). only your stats, not skill/abilities. meaning u are weaker compared to natural level 75 player that have more abilities and more stats+ with lv 75 equipment.

monster difficulty.

let say player is level 2, newbie equipment (lowest eq) and leveling at lv 75-80 area

  1. easy (u can defeat it 1v1, but probably lose if 1v3)
  2. normal (50% chance to win 1v1, but lose if get 1v2)
  3. hard (need 2-3 player like u)
  4. very hard (need 5 player like u)
  5. legendary (10 player like u)

so if u progress and wear a better equipment, u can do better, againts those monster, example u wear full exotic, u can defeat 'very hard' mob alone..

and this types of monster will be on every map...so if u level 80 (wear ascended eq) and leveling at level 2-area, u can do outnumbered fight against 'very hard mobs' like 1v2

And I didn't say to remove levels, at all. They're an important aspect of progression of traits, unlocking skills etc. But to be fair the game honestly doesn't need levels at all (past 20 or so for tutorial unlocking skills).

Regarding your example of level 2 upleveled to 75: My suggestion above already does that with no scaling. The level 2 would still have 2 weapon skills, but the same basic stats. He would have slightly less from gear, but that works as a good encourager to stick to areas closer to your own level.

Also I honestly don't think many players are going to survive in a 75+ area like Orr with only 2 weapon skills, no util/elite, or any traits. Despite having 80 stats.


So basically your definition of "Harder pve" is just "Add more elites and champions everywhere" ? Sounds super boring. Sorry, HP sponges is the most boring enemies in the game.

In that case, the best I can say is "Lets agree to disagree".

@Fremtid.3528 said:There is one place in this game where a lower leveled player is upleveled to 80 if they're partied with level 80s and its fractals. I only know this because I've been forced to party with all sorts of low level chars on a few occasions because 'they wanted to join to get xp' le sigh.

Just to point out that there is one more place: WvW, upscales you to 80. And as someone mentioned above it still doesn't make them anywhere near capable of competing.

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@joneirikb.7506 said:

@Fremtid.3528 said:There is one place in this game where a lower leveled player is upleveled to 80 if they're partied with level 80s and its fractals. I only know this because I've been forced to party with all sorts of low level chars on a few occasions because 'they wanted to join to get xp' le sigh.

Just to point out that there is one more place: WvW, upscales you to 80. And as someone mentioned above it still doesn't make them anywhere near capable of competing.

Everyone hates an upscale in wvw.....unless they're on the other team. XD

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@nerovergil.5408 said:

@"Randulf.7614" said:There is pretty much no chance of upscaling happening. apart from the fact it would prob require a major change, for 0 comparative gain, it completely negates the need for levels at all. We'd have level 1 toons running around in HoT and PoF which is not a healthy addition to the game. This is not a change they will invest time in given the current system has worked pretty much perfectly for 6 years

Downscaling keeps things relevant for when you are at the maximum level and that's an amazing feature. Upscaling does not give the same comparable benefit

Where upscaling works is in competitive modes where only skill and tactical choices should be the defining difference between players

why not healthy? if the level 1 get to 80, he still can play in beginner area because his level will be lower...beginner map is boring if the player already has countless toons....

If you have "countless toons", you can easly lvl up your new chars with the tomes.

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