Why isnt KDR a bigger part of the war score in wvw?

[Drinks.2361]

@Threather.9354 said:Being stronger than enemy should indicate you are capable of taking t3 keeps from them

Mag can take anything on the map they want, [VR] & [KEK] auto attacked their way though a defended T3 keep last night. Trouble is that it's not fun to do, it takes too long & even worse the defenders just glide away once you breach the walls.

The HoT changes to WvW are like if they decided to make PUBG a trench warfare game

[Riba.3271]

@Drinks.2361 said:

@Threather.9354 said:Being stronger than enemy should indicate you are capable of taking t3 keeps from them

Mag can take anything on the map they want, [VR] & [KEK] auto attacked their way though a defended T3 keep last night. Trouble is that it's not fun to do, it takes to long & even worse the defenders just glide away once you breach the walls.

The HoT changes to WvW are like if they decided to make PUBG a trench warfare game

Yea it definitely takes too long. You cant even use trebs, catas or omegas anymore because shield gens counter them . My point was more of normal EU pug blobs where 1 server can be much stronger than the enemy one but still feel like 2xclaim buff, tactics, siege, chokes, billion health walls/gates etc are maybe too much to take,

It's not fun to pummel your head against a keep for 2 hours after all. Especially since theres almost 0 chance you will get in unless you go with rams and 80% of players manage to somehow survive getting through that gatechoke with 8 elite bubblahs.

[XenesisII.1540]

Guess I will reply for the 3rd time, it's very simple reasons as to why they are in t3 right now.

1. Maguuma is fill with players who want to fight, they will not actively ppt. There is plenty of evidence of this when they don't usually take over borderlands including their own which has very few defenders most times, players will not leave ebg to go defend keeps there. Enemy servers will take and upgrade Mag keeps to t3 often, even TC and CD are doing this.
2. EBG is the real Maguuma home borderland to them, SMC is the one place they will take and defend because it draws fights very often (how many times over how many years now does this need to be stated?). In T1 they manage to hold SMC because BG and SoS eventually give up on hardcore trying to take it. That doesn't mean Mag is the same size as BG and able to take them on, far from it, as stated by a dev BG has almost twice as much population as any other NA server.
3. The link servers to Maguuma are the ones that have the most ppt type commanders or guilds, AR does not have that many players as stated by their players a few times in the forums, they are not getting the ppt from there to keep them in T2. Mag barely has any main guilds left and most of them will look to get a fight first, that may include hitting something to draw enemies onto the map, which brings up the next point.
4. If the situation presents itself, Mag will hit a keep in EBG to draw enemies to defend it and maybe stretch them out into the open field, this of course barely happens and sometimes the fights on the keep under heavy siege goes on for hours. People complain about Mag siege, but for Mag it's like every server they face uses as much siege as YB. When they finally break a side they will hang around and camp the spawn if players keep coming out the front door which just encourages them to stay. They're not focusing you, they take turns beating up a side every night, and this usually only happens in pst time.
5. Last week we had a tie in T2, so no movement was made between T2 and T3, you can blame anet for not implementing some type of tie break system, such as whomever had the most 1st or 2nd skirmish placements wins the tie.
6. Not much point trying to fix Maguuma points when Alliances are coming and servers won't matter anymore, coverage should also even out, you won't be facing pure ppt or pure siege or pure fight servers anymore.
7. If you want Mag to leave the tier, then stop ppting their borderland so much. But if you think beating them in the ppt war is also a great thing then go ahead, they don't care, they won't out ppt you.
8. Anet is not losing money over this, people are not going to move since we know the alliance system is in the works and will be here in the future. Players will still buy cosmetic and convenience items regardless of how their server is doing in wvw.
9. Increasing the kdr points will help mag, sure, but it will start to discourage players from going out and fighting and just stay holed up in their structures to earn points instead. We have seen servers acting this way already as it is.

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:I can't speak about everything Maguuma was doing last night in EB. What I did see was two groups, one running about 25-30 & another about 7-10 (with the usual variations over time, as WvWers come & go). Both groups would only besiege objectives if it was poorly defended; they ran from any fight where they had less than a 2:1 or 3:1 advantage. (That included camps.) They would frequently remain outside an objective, not using siege, to pick off any foes attempting to get in to defend.

Consequently, they didn't die very often and their outnumbered opponents were efficiently converted into bags.

Assuming my narrow observational data was typical, that would generate impressive KDR and almost no points-per-tick.

If KDR was a bigger part of the score, then lots of servers would adopt this sort of game play. And I think it would make the game very dull. Lots of even fights are fun for me. I do like the karma & skirmish rewards we get for purging a map clean of foes, but it's also boring.

To be clear, I don't see anything wrong or unfair about what I perceive Mags to be doing; I just wouldn't enjoy the game mode as much if that was typical of every match up, every week. Your mileage might vary.

You don't see the major wipes from TC and CD zergs, very costly mistakes are made by their commanders very often. Just last night CD had their zerg wiped twice in five mins in ogrewatch. Camping a couple roamers in a camp doesn't give you a huge kdr like that, wiping entire zergs out often does that. That doesn't mean Mag doesn't wipe in fights, but they do it a lot less than their two opponents which in the long run is obviously going to net them more kills than deaths.

[Donfrigginjuan.5096]

@XenesisII.1540 said:Guess I will reply for the 3rd time, it's very simple reasons as to why they are in t3 right now.

1. Maguuma is fill with players who want to fight, they will not actively ppt. There is plenty of evidence of this when they don't usually take over borderlands including their own which has very few defenders most times, players will not leave ebg to go defend keeps there. Enemy servers will take and upgrade Mag keeps to t3 often, even TC and CD are doing this.
2. EBG is the real Maguuma home borderland to them, SMC is the one place they will take and defend because it draws fights very often (how many times over how many years now does this need to be stated?). In T1 they manage to hold SMC because BG and SoS eventually give up on hardcore trying to take it. That doesn't mean Mag is the same size as BG and able to take them on, far from it, as stated by a dev BG has almost twice as much population as any other NA server.
3. The link servers to Maguuma are the ones that have the most ppt type commanders or guilds, AR does not have that many players as stated by their players a few times in the forums, they are not getting the ppt from there to keep them in T2. Mag barely has any main guilds left and most of them will look to get a fight first, that may include hitting something to draw enemies onto the map, which brings up the next point.
4. If the situation presents itself, Mag will hit a keep in EBG to draw enemies to defend it and maybe stretch them out into the open field, this of course barely happens and sometimes the fights on the keep under heavy siege goes on for hours. People complain about Mag siege, but for Mag it's like every server they face uses as much siege as YB. When they finally break a side they will hang around and camp the spawn if players keep coming out the front door which just encourages them to stay. They're not focusing you, they take turns beating up a side every night, and this usually only happens in pst time.
5. Last week we had a tie in T2, so no movement was made between T2 and T3, you can blame anet for not implementing some type of tie break system, such as whomever had the most 1st or 2nd skirmish placements wins the tie.
6. Not much point trying to fix Maguuma points when Alliances are coming and servers won't matter anymore, coverage should also even out, you won't be facing pure ppt or pure siege or pure fight servers anymore.
7. If you want Mag to leave the tier, then stop ppting their borderland so much. But if you think beating them in the ppt war is also a great thing then go ahead, they don't care, they won't out ppt you.
8. Anet is not losing money over this, people are not going to move since we know the alliance system is in the works and will be here in the future. Players will still buy cosmetic and convenience items regardless of how their server is doing in wvw.
9. Increasing the kdr points will help mag, sure, but it will start to discourage players from going out and fighting and just stay holed up in their structures to earn points instead. We have seen servers acting this way already as it is.

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:I can't speak about everything Maguuma was doing last night in EB. What I did see was two groups, one running about 25-30 & another about 7-10 (with the usual variations over time, as WvWers come & go). Both groups would only besiege objectives if it was poorly defended; they ran from any fight where they had less than a 2:1 or 3:1 advantage. (That included camps.) They would frequently remain outside an objective, not using siege, to pick off any foes attempting to get in to defend.

Consequently, they didn't die very often and their outnumbered opponents were efficiently converted into bags.

Assuming my narrow observational data was typical, that would generate impressive KDR and almost no points-per-tick.

If KDR was a bigger part of the score, then lots of servers would adopt this sort of game play. And I think it would make the game very dull. Lots of even fights are fun for me. I do like the karma & skirmish rewards we get for purging a map clean of foes, but it's also boring.

To be clear, I don't see anything wrong or unfair about what I perceive Mags to be doing; I just wouldn't enjoy the game mode as much if that was typical of every match up, every week. Your mileage might vary.

You don't see the major wipes from TC and CD zergs, very costly mistakes are made by their commanders very often. Just last night CD had their zerg wiped twice in five mins in ogrewatch. Camping a couple roamers in a camp doesn't give you a huge kdr like that, wiping entire zergs out often does that. That doesn't mean Mag doesn't wipe in fights, but they do it a lot less than their two opponents which in the long run is obviously going to net them more kills than deaths.

Number 7, the reason people ppt on the boarderlands is because they can not fight in eb. And they can not show they have numbers to mag because mag will follow them and pewpew them to death. The lack of real fighting is due to not being able to defend, or generate downs at all. Because maguuma is a stronger server, more advanced at winning fights (and losing tbh). A stronger server than should be in t3 is in t3, and where there is usually a tag or two on every bl, there are only one or two. That is a lot less people playing when facing maguuma. Outta sight outta mind, player retention is ignored here.

Point number nine is a bit off i think, making kdr higher in score will generate more rewards. Anet could just decrease the already obscene amount of rewards to adjust for the kdr shift. If servers are against other servers that can defend themselves against death, then they will play more and get satisfaction for growing their guilds bigger. Players will be happier, move more, make more pretties for their toon, all while keeping moral in check. Moral drops when players can not leave eb keep because they are defeated in seconds. I had a guild take 2 months off over it, i quit them over that. I have seen commanders with huge guilds disappear. Die hards that would find more joy if they won at least one of three fights, but against Maguuma they win one in ten.

[Drinks.2361]

Most servers would have a better shot at beating the Mag cloud if 1/3 of their numbers didn't just sit on the walls when their commanders tried to attack. It's not like that pug blob uses voice comms anymore.

[XenesisII.1540]

If they increase kdr points then players will feel more conscience about their virtual deaths giving points to the enemy and stop showing up for fights, they'll just run away more often than they do now. I think that's the reason why anet didn't want to award points for kills in the first place, that and not wanting to do kill trading. The alliance system is going to shake up populations anyways so it's pointless making a change for one server and it's culture that won't exist in the future.

They are not making or losing money on this situation, as I said people will not be transferring often right now because of the alliance system coming in the future, and winning or losing a match has no bearing on cosmetic or convenience items a player may purchase, the item being on sale will though (come on anet put copper fed salvage on sale already please).

@NooB.9702 said:Number 7, the reason people ppt on the boarderlands is because they can not fight in eb. And they can not show they have numbers to mag because mag will follow them and pewpew them to death. The lack of real fighting is due to not being able to defend, or generate downs at all. Because maguuma is a stronger server, more advanced at winning fights (and losing tbh). A stronger server than should be in t3 is in t3, and where there is usually a tag or two on every bl, there are only one or two. That is a lot less people playing when facing maguuma. Outta sight outta mind, player retention is ignored here.

And you know they won't defend their home borderland much, so either you go to tc or cd bl and ppt there. Don't know why TC was ppting so hard last week or this week for that matter. Also if you haven't realized, every week there are servers in tiers they shouldn't be in, even Mag or FA or YB or DB or JQ are t2 servers that get boosted into t1 every week, or sometimes thrown to t3 where they also don't belong, that's the nature of 1u1d.

[Donfrigginjuan.5096]

@XenesisII.1540 said:If they increase kdr points then players will feel more conscience about their virtual deaths giving points to the enemy and stop showing up for fights, they'll just run away more often than they do now. I think that's the reason why anet didn't want to award points for kills in the first place, that and not wanting to do kill trading. The alliance system is going to shake up populations anyways so it's pointless making a change for one server and it's culture that won't exist in the future.

They are not making or losing money on this situation, as I said people will not be transferring often right now because of the alliance system coming in the future, and winning or losing a match has no bearing on cosmetic or convenience items a player may purchase, the item being on sale will though (come on anet put copper fed salvage on sale already please).

I have said it numerous times, increase kdr influence when a waypointed smc is held and kdr is above 1.5:1. This would drive the stronger server up to higher teirs, cause smc to switch hands more, and deny servers like maguuma the ability to stand at smc and watch red keep for kills.

[Chaba.5410]

@"NooB.9702" said:Point number nine is a bit off i think, making kdr higher in score will generate more rewards. Anet could just decrease the already obscene amount of rewards to adjust for the kdr shift. If servers are against other servers that can defend themselves against death, then they will play more and get satisfaction for growing their guilds bigger. Players will be happier, move more, make more pretties for their toon, all while keeping moral in check. Moral drops when players can not leave eb keep because they are defeated in seconds. I had a guild take 2 months off over it, i quit them over that. I have seen commanders with huge guilds disappear. Die hards that would find more joy if they won at least one of three fights, but against Maguuma they win one in ten.

It just doesn't happen the way you think. Here's what those other servers that you think can defend themselves against Mag do: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29673/spawncamping-siege

[shiri.4257]

the ebg mag cloud is more challenging than most guild groups. they make u pay for over extending or lagging behind in the tail. its an unconventional fight so people don't like it. being outnumbered is relative to morale. NA EST/PST all 3 servers in current matchup can queue maps so its technically even numbers. Just morale goes down when u lose some fights and thats a snowball effect.

[XenesisII.1540]

If they didn't spawn camp they wouldn't be able to create photo gems like these.

[Donfrigginjuan.5096]

@"XenesisII.1540" said:If they didn't spawn camp they wouldn't be able to create photo gems like these.

That is crazy, but what servers see for sometimes full weeks while playing against Maguuma. I have seen Mag wp SBI keep and keep it all week!

[Shazmataz.1423]

Inclusion of kdr in scoring has already created the "run from fights and hide in tower" (or hug smc) mentality....it's like pixel death results in real life death with some guilds and servers.

KDR has given us a situation where alot groups will run from fights unless they vastly outnumber and will be assured of a win. Instead of encouraging fights it seems to have had the opposite effect. There needs to be some other way of encouraging fights over ppt but I'm not sure kdr in it's present form is it.

Maguuma is a real problem in that as a server it manipulates matches and has a toxic playstyle. I don't think there is one server that would say they like having Mag in their matchup. If your group does win a fight against a mag group that has even numbers (that's if they stay to fight in such a situation) then be prepared to have your tag pin sniped and your group blobbed down because Mag kdr must be protected at all costs.

[Donfrigginjuan.5096]

@"Shazmataz.1423" said:Inclusion of kdr in scoring has already created the "run from fights and hide in tower" (or hug smc) mentality....it's like pixel death results in real life death with some guilds and servers.

KDR has given us a situation where alot groups will run from fights unless they vastly outnumber and will be assured of a win. Instead of encouraging fights it seems to have had the opposite effect. There needs to be some other way of encouraging fights over ppt but I'm not sure kdr in it's present form is it.

Maguuma is a real problem in that as a server it manipulates matches and has a toxic playstyle. I don't think there is one server that would say they like having Mag in their matchup. If your group does win a fight against a mag group that has even numbers (that's if they stay to fight in such a situation) then be prepared to have your tag pin sniped and your group blobbed down because Mag kdr must be protected at all costs.

No, dieing and respawning makes people run to and hide in towers.

[XenesisII.1540]

@NooB.9702 said:That is crazy, but what servers see for sometimes full weeks while playing against Maguuma. I have seen Mag wp SBI keep and keep it all week!

BG and SoS do that every week to the 3rd place server in t1....

[Shazmataz.1423]

@NooB.9702Have you got precious pixels?

[coro.3176]

In short,

The servers that care about "winning" (aka, PPT-ing, running dolyaks, having players sitting on siege), tend to either not be good at or not care about KDR.

The servers that care about KDR (aka, PPK-ing, running zergs, spawncamping and open-field fights), tend to either not be good at, or not care about "winning".

[Hexinx.1872]

I'm pretty sure most players actively avoid EBG when faced up against mags, as mags will do anything to way point smc and work there way onto enemy keeps, and spawn camp for point.s It's silly to run out in a spawn camping situation, but people do it repeatedly which just spikes up a kdr. People will actively avoid fights when they are being farmed as in that picture (or should anyhow). I'm surprised mag isn't up at t1 where they belong. The fights are more even when t3 servers get to fight each other. I would assume the fights are more even for mag when they are matched up against bg and sos

[Donfrigginjuan.5096]

@Hexinx.1872 said:I'm pretty sure most players actively avoid EBG when faced up against mags, as mags will do anything to way point smc and work there way onto enemy keeps, and spawn camp for point.s It's silly to run out in a spawn camping situation, but people do it repeatedly which just spikes up a kdr. People will actively avoid fights when they are being farmed as in that picture (or should anyhow). I'm surprised mag isn't up at t1 where they belong. The fights are more even when t3 servers get to fight each other. I would assume the fights are more even for mag when they are matched up against bg and sos

Maguuma had a recent forum recruitment message where the author posted pics of bg in eotm because mag owned a waypointed smc and had a kdr of 1.5:1. Mag destroys bg! I can not find the post, I think last nights moderator got it when going on the warpath with this ideas origionator first put forth this reasonin. the link was reposted, but not searchable now. ie mag pro tect ion and dis crim ination against free thinking/speech/reality.

[Hexinx.1872]

@NooB.9702 said:

@Hexinx.1872 said:I'm pretty sure most players actively avoid EBG when faced up against mags, as mags will do anything to way point smc and work there way onto enemy keeps, and spawn camp for point.s It's silly to run out in a spawn camping situation, but people do it repeatedly which just spikes up a kdr. People will actively avoid fights when they are being farmed as in that picture (or should anyhow). I'm surprised mag isn't up at t1 where they belong. The fights are more even when t3 servers get to fight each other. I would assume the fights are more even for mag when they are matched up against bg and sos

Maguuma had a recent forum recruitment message where the author posted pics of bg in eotm because mag owned a waypointed smc and had a kdr of 1.5:1. Mag destroys bg!

Not as bad as they destroy lower tiers though

[Chaba.5410]

@NooB.9702 said:Maguuma had a recent forum recruitment message where the author posted pics of bg in eotm because mag owned a waypointed smc and had a kdr of 1.5:1. Mag destroys bg!

Right, so why would everyone be happy if Mag were kept in T1 from EBG kills when even T1 has the same issues as T3?

[Donfrigginjuan.5096]

@Chaba.5410 said:

@"NooB.9702" said:Maguuma had a recent forum recruitment message where the author posted pics of bg in eotm because mag owned a waypointed smc and had a kdr of 1.5:1. Mag destroys bg!

Right, so why would everyone be happy if Mag were kept in T1 from EBG kills when even T1 has the same issues as T3?

You just made it perfectly clear, all be it probably an accident on your part. The t3 servers would come down and the real t1 would take its rightful place at the top where they can kill all who come there. The happiness will come from players not afraid to leave the keep or towers, more players will take to the field, more towers will be flipped, smc will not be a catalyst for keep camping, and low tiers can concentrate on getting better at whatever they want to do. Players and guilds will become more comfortable, some will think about t1 and tour there fore stronger fights, others in t1 will get tired of easy kill/bandwagon carry and move to servers that have better communities, miss their friends and move back. Maybe a rainbow will appear in ebg because all the dark thinking and "conspiracies" will be replaced by fairness and the ability to play whenever without being outgunned. The frequency of rage quitting will decline, and high morality equals happy patrons...

[XenesisII.1540]

Is it finally time for the conspiracy theories to come out?Some people have a funny view of Mag.

P.S Which is understandable I suppose as I use to have a one sided view on them as well, back in the days when I still cared about winning and ppting for the pride of a server. Although they were a lot more cancerous back in those days too.

[Ya Ya Yeah.7381]

Alliances are incoming, Mag or any server will not exist soon. Everything else is moot. gg 7/10

[Donfrigginjuan.5096]

@Crazy.6029 said:Alliances are incoming, Mag or any server will not exist soon. Everything else is moot. gg 7/10

Maybe a year or more until that happens. It is a big project after all.

[Optimator.3589]

@"XenesisII.1540" said:Is it finally time for the conspiracy theories to come out?Some people have a funny view of Mag.

The hilarious thing is that they think we only ever "blob them down with a 2:1 advantage" or some such rubbish. Unless they themselves are counting each Mag player as being worth 2 players from their servers. Which might actually be closer to the truth in many fights, since we frequently destroy zergs that outnumber our cloud.