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The case for reverting the Mesmer phantasm rework.


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The Mesmer phantasm changes are a perfect example as to why balancing mechanics for PvE results in extreme unforeseen consequences in sPvP.

8+ clones at the same time is just silly. Clones running around are supposed to be the tells for Mesmer skills. By reworking Mesmer to have no limit this makes it so you cannot realistically be expected to dodge shatters due to the animation for shatter being technically active at all times. But it's more than just that, having so many clones means that even assuming you know exactly which one is the mesmer the following problems still occur:

  1. Screws with AoE abilities since mesmers can now have more clones than the general target limit of 5.
  2. Screws with ranged attacks that don't pierce due to the massive amount of clones creating a wall.
  3. Screws with graphics and animation tells of other classes due to screen clutter.
  4. Screws with ping / latency due to bugs ( Extra bodies = greater chance of desync ).
  5. Screws with Mesmer downtime.

The strangest and most confusing part of this rework though is how utterly unnecessary and unasked for it was. If the balance team wanted power mes to be more a thing in PvE, it would have made far more sense to just buff PvE greatsword damage instead of having the programming team waste their time working on a convoluted list of massive changes. Their time could have been better spent working on anything else. The thing about PvE balance is that regardless what PvE Raid players say, they really only care about DPS and clear times. This means mechanics can always be safely designed 100% with PvP in mind, and then damage can be edited in PvE separately. There is no need to create such a rift in the playerbase.

Now, the balance team could try to fix this by nerfing mesmer over and over and over again to make up for the inherently game breaking mechanics that this rework has introduced. But the thing is, that's bad. Mesmers don't deserve to be nerfed a million times just because of one poorly designed mechanic that wasn't even in the game until recently. This is one of those things where the balance team should really just swallow their pride, take a deep breath - and admit "We screwed up, we're sorry, this was a bad idea." Then revert it.

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The ideas are cool and all but with this rework in mind getting clones and phantasms should be more difficult.Most importantly the boonshare from clones giving mesmer permanent access to a ton of boons including quickness and 15+ might, protection stab etc. should be nerfed.

Last thing that should have never been a thing is mirage being able to dodge when CC’d.Their dodge even without it is extremely strong as it allows you to keep pressuring during the dodge, allows you to stay put while dodging, stomp while dodging.All of this can be done without elusive mind even, which is in itself an issue but is getting nerfed accordingly.If mirage won’t be able to dodge in CC without elusive mind only then the nerf will actually mean something.

Otherwise while I think other classes needed a rework more than mesmer, I don’t think its bad the devs are re-evaluating old designs and tries to improve them. If mesmer gets brought in line this will overall be a very positive change.

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I'd look through the Mesmer forums and then post about my "case" on Phantasms rework. We had been asking this for what feels like years to no end and now that we finally got it you want to revert everything back just because you had a bad game in PvP..

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@"MikeL.8260" said:I'd look through the Mesmer forums and then post about my "case" on Phantasms rework. We had been asking this for what feels like years to no end and now that we finally got it you want to revert everything back just because you had a bad game in PvP..

  • Illusionary Defender is hitting people for 18k multiple times due to resummons.
  • Illusionary Disenchanter is hitting for 10k+ as well.
  • The 10+ clone spam makes it almost impossible to tell what's going on. Not only does it render tab target nearly useless, but click targetting as well.
  • It is impossible to discern which clone is which because they just resummon themselves.
  • Mirage is still extremely difficult to pressure due to the nature of Mirage Cloak.
  • Chronomancer resummoning is even stronger than Mirage's (albeit a weaker MU).
  • Mesmer can also hit 20k+ damage from stealth repeatedly on a short cooldown without any tells if you don't see the mesmer coming. By the time the mesmer leaves stealth you die unless you can react an almost instant burst with quickness with a stunbreak that's also an evade or an invulnerability skill.
  • Chronomancer has access to 18+ seconds of alacrity as well as permanent EVERY boon in the game including 25 stacks of might. Core and Mirage do as well (minus the alacrity).
  • Mirage has the highest access to on-demand invulnerability.

etc. etc. Mesmers are extremely broken.

Just because you've been asking to make your class completely overpowered for years doesn't make it right. (lol)

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Yeah because phantasm builds were 100% legit meta before the rework back in 2013.

Phantasms have always been poorly implemented in the game, in PvP they were shatter fodder and most barely did anything at all while in PvE the mechanic was summon the 3 hardest hitting phantasms and snooze on the 2 key so blurred frenzy executes off cool down while auto is on, well, auto cast. WvW they were flat out useless for the most part outside of duels, even then see the first part about PvP.

The phantasm change was much needed, most classes have seen changes to many traits, mechanics and skills so that you are encouraged to use the class mechanics. Phantasms in any iteration where they would be good on their own would encourage not using the class mechanic and cause balance issues, do you balance around them being alive for 1-2 hits, 30s or for attacking then shattered?

We all knew that this change would have problems especially when it’s a big change like it was, it didn’t just change phantasms, many traits and skills had to be changed to accommodate this change in mechanic. Some might say Mesmer shouldn’t be able to generate as many clones as they do but don’t realise how integral clones are to shattering. If phantasms didn’t turn into clones most builds would only have a single clone generating skill on a 8-12s cool down, this would then push mesmers back into the requirement of deceptive evasion for clone generation or make mirror images a must have. They also don’t realise that most of the phantasm spam is from chrono phantasm, getting 2 staff phantasms, traiting for 2 on the great sword and use the utility for another phantasm.

Sure the traits need tuning, no one will deny that but let’s also not pretend that many other classes don’t have their own BS aspects like having large amounts of AoE and cleave while taking barely any offensive traits. If you want something addressing look at what specifically is the problem, then analyse how it does what it does and what you consider too strong. Then you should look at similar skills, traits and effects on other classes and compare.

Also, try to see the difference between a mechanical change and balance changes, just because something hits hard doesn’t mean it’s mechanically bad.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"MikeL.8260" said:I'd look through the Mesmer forums and then post about my "case" on Phantasms rework. We had been asking this for what feels like years to no end and now that we finally got it you want to revert everything back just because you had a bad game in PvP..
  • Illusionary Defender is hitting people for 18k multiple times due to resummons.
  • Illusionary Disenchanter is hitting for 10k+ as well.
  • The 10+ clone spam makes it almost impossible to tell what's going on. Not only does it render tab target nearly useless, but click targetting as well.
  • It is impossible to discern which clone is which because they just resummon themselves.
  • Mirage is still extremely difficult to pressure due to the nature of Mirage Cloak.
  • Chronomancer resummoning is even stronger than Mirage's (albeit a weaker MU).
  • Mesmer can also hit 20k+ damage from stealth repeatedly on a short cooldown without any tells if you don't see the mesmer coming. By the time the mesmer leaves stealth you die unless you can react an almost instant burst with quickness with a stunbreak that's also an evade or an invulnerability skill.
  • Chronomancer has access to 18+ seconds of alacrity as well as permanent EVERY boon in the game including 25 stacks of might. Core and Mirage do as well (minus the alacrity).
  • Mirage has the highest access to on-demand invulnerability.

etc. etc. Mesmers are extremely broken.

Just because you've been asking to make your class completely overpowered for years doesn't make it right. (lol)

Way to miss the point completely, nevermind the hyperbole (ie impossible to have more than 3 clones out at once unless having shattered a set (for clarity you shatter 3 clones just before more phantasms turn into clones or you spawn more by other means making it seem like there are more than 3 on the field at once) because clones overwrite each other if they haven't been shattered, lol at tab targeting issues especially if difficulties between phantasms and the player which clearly do not look alike, actually Chrono has the highest access to on demand invuln through F5+F4 and alacrity because evade is not invuln... I could go on but cba).

The rework is fine and necessary to incentivise the use of the class mechanic (shatters) in every game mode. It was such a large change that there's bound to be balance issues. All that is needed is to look at phantasm skills and traits and interactions such as chronophantsma, imagined burden and so on, for balancing.

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@Curunen.8729 said:

@"MikeL.8260" said:I'd look through the Mesmer forums and then post about my "case" on Phantasms rework. We had been asking this for what feels like years to no end and now that we finally got it you want to revert everything back just because you had a bad game in PvP..
  • Illusionary Defender is hitting people for 18k multiple times due to resummons.
  • Illusionary Disenchanter is hitting for 10k+ as well.
  • The 10+ clone spam makes it almost impossible to tell what's going on. Not only does it render tab target nearly useless, but click targetting as well.
  • It is impossible to discern which clone is which because they just resummon themselves.
  • Mirage is still extremely difficult to pressure due to the nature of Mirage Cloak.
  • Chronomancer resummoning is even stronger than Mirage's (albeit a weaker MU).
  • Mesmer can also hit 20k+ damage from stealth repeatedly on a short cooldown without any tells if you don't see the mesmer coming. By the time the mesmer leaves stealth you die unless you can react an almost instant burst with quickness with a stunbreak that's also an evade or an invulnerability skill.
  • Chronomancer has access to 18+ seconds of alacrity as well as permanent EVERY boon in the game including 25 stacks of might. Core and Mirage do as well (minus the alacrity).
  • Mirage has the highest access to on-demand invulnerability.

etc. etc. Mesmers are extremely broken.

Just because you've been asking to make your class completely overpowered for years doesn't make it right. (lol)

Way to miss the point completely, nevermind the hyperbole (ie impossible to have more than 3 clones out at once unless having shattered a set (for clarity you shatter 3 clones just before more phantasms turn into clones or you spawn more by other means making it seem like there are more than 3 on the field at once) because clones overwrite each other, lol at tab targeting issues especially if difficulties between phantasms and the player which clearly do not look alike, actually Chrono has the highest access to on demand invuln through F5+F4 and alacrity because evade is not invuln... I could go on but cba).

The rework is fine and necessary to incentivise the use of the class mechanic (shatters) in every game mode. It was such a large change that there's bound to be balance issues. All that is needed is to look at phantasm skills and traits and interactions such as chronophantsma, imagined burden and so on, for balancing.

I didn't read past the first sentence because I'm 99% sure your post consists of you arguing semantics.

With that being said, mesmers were already regarded as overpowered before the rework. The fact that the changes made them even stronger is ridiculous.

Mesmers:

  • Do too much damage
  • Are too hard to hit
  • Have every boon permanently
  • Have multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage
  • etc. etc.
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@Curunen.8729 said:

@"MikeL.8260" said:I'd look through the Mesmer forums and then post about my "case" on Phantasms rework. We had been asking this for what feels like years to no end and now that we finally got it you want to revert everything back just because you had a bad game in PvP..
  • Illusionary Defender is hitting people for 18k multiple times due to resummons.
  • Illusionary Disenchanter is hitting for 10k+ as well.
  • The 10+ clone spam makes it almost impossible to tell what's going on. Not only does it render tab target nearly useless, but click targetting as well.
  • It is impossible to discern which clone is which because they just resummon themselves.
  • Mirage is still extremely difficult to pressure due to the nature of Mirage Cloak.
  • Chronomancer resummoning is even stronger than Mirage's (albeit a weaker MU).
  • Mesmer can also hit 20k+ damage from stealth repeatedly on a short cooldown without any tells if you don't see the mesmer coming. By the time the mesmer leaves stealth you die unless you can react an almost instant burst with quickness with a stunbreak that's also an evade or an invulnerability skill.
  • Chronomancer has access to 18+ seconds of alacrity as well as permanent EVERY boon in the game including 25 stacks of might. Core and Mirage do as well (minus the alacrity).
  • Mirage has the highest access to on-demand invulnerability.

etc. etc. Mesmers are extremely broken.

Just because you've been asking to make your class completely overpowered for years doesn't make it right. (lol)

Way to miss the point completely, nevermind the hyperbole (ie impossible to have more than 3 clones out at once unless having shattered a set (for clarity you shatter 3 clones just before more phantasms turn into clones or you spawn more by other means making it seem like there are more than 3 on the field at once) because clones overwrite each other if they haven't been shattered, lol at tab targeting issues especially if difficulties between phantasms and the player which clearly do not look alike, actually Chrono has the highest access to on demand invuln through F5+F4 and alacrity because evade is not invuln... I could go on but cba).

The rework is fine and necessary to incentivise the use of the class mechanic (shatters) in every game mode. It was such a large change that there's bound to be balance issues. All that is needed is to look at phantasm skills and traits and interactions such as chronophantsma, imagined burden and so on, for balancing.

I remember seeing this post somewhere but can’t remember where. But it was picked apart and a lot refuted. I mean he’s wrong concerning clones, boons, and well just about everything. So it really won’t do any good as he, and the players like him, won’t listen nor ask for help so they just complain.

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@Jace al Thor.6745 said:

@"MikeL.8260" said:I'd look through the Mesmer forums and then post about my "case" on Phantasms rework. We had been asking this for what feels like years to no end and now that we finally got it you want to revert everything back just because you had a bad game in PvP..
  • Illusionary Defender is hitting people for 18k multiple times due to resummons.
  • Illusionary Disenchanter is hitting for 10k+ as well.
  • The 10+ clone spam makes it almost impossible to tell what's going on. Not only does it render tab target nearly useless, but click targetting as well.
  • It is impossible to discern which clone is which because they just resummon themselves.
  • Mirage is still extremely difficult to pressure due to the nature of Mirage Cloak.
  • Chronomancer resummoning is even stronger than Mirage's (albeit a weaker MU).
  • Mesmer can also hit 20k+ damage from stealth repeatedly on a short cooldown without any tells if you don't see the mesmer coming. By the time the mesmer leaves stealth you die unless you can react an almost instant burst with quickness with a stunbreak that's also an evade or an invulnerability skill.
  • Chronomancer has access to 18+ seconds of alacrity as well as permanent EVERY boon in the game including 25 stacks of might. Core and Mirage do as well (minus the alacrity).
  • Mirage has the highest access to on-demand invulnerability.

etc. etc. Mesmers are extremely broken.

Just because you've been asking to make your class completely overpowered for years doesn't make it right. (lol)

Way to miss the point completely, nevermind the hyperbole (ie impossible to have more than 3 clones out at once unless having shattered a set (for clarity you shatter 3 clones just before more phantasms turn into clones or you spawn more by other means making it seem like there are more than 3 on the field at once) because clones overwrite each other if they haven't been shattered, lol at tab targeting issues especially if difficulties between phantasms and the player which clearly do not look alike, actually Chrono has the highest access to on demand invuln through F5+F4 and alacrity because evade is not invuln... I could go on but cba).

The rework is fine and necessary to incentivise the use of the class mechanic (shatters) in every game mode. It was such a large change that there's bound to be balance issues. All that is needed is to look at phantasm skills and traits and interactions such as chronophantsma, imagined burden and so on, for balancing.

I remember seeing this post somewhere but can’t remember where. But it was picked apart and a lot refuted. I mean he’s wrong concerning clones, boons, and well just about everything. So it really won’t do any good as he, and the players like him, won’t listen nor ask for help so they just complain.

Oh, you mean the one where I received 12 upvotes? LUL

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/430270#Comment_430270

https://imgur.com/a/RYvCdhttps://imgur.com/a/sw17x

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"MikeL.8260" said:I'd look through the Mesmer forums and then post about my "case" on Phantasms rework. We had been asking this for what feels like years to no end and now that we finally got it you want to revert everything back just because you had a bad game in PvP..
  • Illusionary Defender is hitting people for 18k multiple times due to resummons.
  • Illusionary Disenchanter is hitting for 10k+ as well.
  • The 10+ clone spam makes it almost impossible to tell what's going on. Not only does it render tab target nearly useless, but click targetting as well.
  • It is impossible to discern which clone is which because they just resummon themselves.
  • Mirage is still extremely difficult to pressure due to the nature of Mirage Cloak.
  • Chronomancer resummoning is even stronger than Mirage's (albeit a weaker MU).
  • Mesmer can also hit 20k+ damage from stealth repeatedly on a short cooldown without any tells if you don't see the mesmer coming. By the time the mesmer leaves stealth you die unless you can react an almost instant burst with quickness with a stunbreak that's also an evade or an invulnerability skill.
  • Chronomancer has access to 18+ seconds of alacrity as well as permanent EVERY boon in the game including 25 stacks of might. Core and Mirage do as well (minus the alacrity).
  • Mirage has the highest access to on-demand invulnerability.

etc. etc. Mesmers are extremely broken.

Just because you've been asking to make your class completely overpowered for years doesn't make it right. (lol)

Way to miss the point completely, nevermind the hyperbole (ie impossible to have more than 3 clones out at once unless having shattered a set (for clarity you shatter 3 clones just before more phantasms turn into clones or you spawn more by other means making it seem like there are more than 3 on the field at once) because clones overwrite each other, lol at tab targeting issues especially if difficulties between phantasms and the player which clearly do not look alike, actually Chrono has the highest access to on demand invuln through F5+F4 and alacrity because evade is not invuln... I could go on but cba).

The rework is fine and necessary to incentivise the use of the class mechanic (shatters) in every game mode. It was such a large change that there's bound to be balance issues. All that is needed is to look at phantasm skills and traits and interactions such as chronophantsma, imagined burden and so on, for balancing.

I didn't read what you wrote because I'm 99% sure your post consists of you arguing semantics.

With that being said, mesmers were already regarded as overpowered before the rework. The fact that the changes made them even stronger is ridiculous.

Mesmers:
  • Do too much damage
  • Are too hard to hit
  • Have every boon permanently
  • Have multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage
  • etc. etc.

Actually half of it was l2p, not only semantics so you could continue to keep your head buried or become more aware of how mesmer works so you can discuss the balance issues objectively rather than a subjective rant on the matter full of hyperbole because you hate mesmers. That goes for the OP and others on here as well.

As apharma said - this was a mechanical change necessary for the game - be aware of the difference between fundamental mechanical changes and balance, the latter of which is bound to be out of order when such a large change is made to the foundations of a class. So rather than moaning "mesmer so godlike now even more godlike...", suggest accurate solutions for balancing the phantasms spam in pvp.

I think you'll find many of us on here fairly level headed regarding what needs balancing on mesmer and as such we make suggestions on things to be nerfed. From my perspective I do think there are a number of things that need to be reigned in for the state of the game, which I don't feel is worth the effort for me to go into detail on in this thread.

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@Curunen.8729 said:

@"MikeL.8260" said:I'd look through the Mesmer forums and then post about my "case" on Phantasms rework. We had been asking this for what feels like years to no end and now that we finally got it you want to revert everything back just because you had a bad game in PvP..
  • Illusionary Defender is hitting people for 18k multiple times due to resummons.
  • Illusionary Disenchanter is hitting for 10k+ as well.
  • The 10+ clone spam makes it almost impossible to tell what's going on. Not only does it render tab target nearly useless, but click targetting as well.
  • It is impossible to discern which clone is which because they just resummon themselves.
  • Mirage is still extremely difficult to pressure due to the nature of Mirage Cloak.
  • Chronomancer resummoning is even stronger than Mirage's (albeit a weaker MU).
  • Mesmer can also hit 20k+ damage from stealth repeatedly on a short cooldown without any tells if you don't see the mesmer coming. By the time the mesmer leaves stealth you die unless you can react an almost instant burst with quickness with a stunbreak that's also an evade or an invulnerability skill.
  • Chronomancer has access to 18+ seconds of alacrity as well as permanent EVERY boon in the game including 25 stacks of might. Core and Mirage do as well (minus the alacrity).
  • Mirage has the highest access to on-demand invulnerability.

etc. etc. Mesmers are extremely broken.

Just because you've been asking to make your class completely overpowered for years doesn't make it right. (lol)

Way to miss the point completely, nevermind the hyperbole (ie impossible to have more than 3 clones out at once unless having shattered a set (for clarity you shatter 3 clones just before more phantasms turn into clones or you spawn more by other means making it seem like there are more than 3 on the field at once) because clones overwrite each other, lol at tab targeting issues especially if difficulties between phantasms and the player which clearly do not look alike, actually Chrono has the highest access to on demand invuln through F5+F4 and alacrity because evade is not invuln... I could go on but cba).

The rework is fine and necessary to incentivise the use of the class mechanic (shatters) in every game mode. It was such a large change that there's bound to be balance issues. All that is needed is to look at phantasm skills and traits and interactions such as chronophantsma, imagined burden and so on, for balancing.

I didn't read what you wrote because I'm 99% sure your post consists of you arguing semantics.

With that being said, mesmers were already regarded as overpowered before the rework. The fact that the changes made them even stronger is ridiculous.

Mesmers:
  • Do too much damage
  • Are too hard to hit
  • Have every boon permanently
  • Have multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage
  • etc. etc.

Actually half of it was l2p, not only semantics so you could continue to keep your head buried or become more aware of how mesmer works so you can discuss the balance issues objectively rather than a subjective rant on the matter full of hyperbole because you hate mesmers. That goes for the OP and others on here as well.

As apharma said - this was a mechanical change necessary for the game - be aware of the difference between fundamental mechanical changes and balance, the latter of which is bound to be out of order when such a large change is made to the foundations of a class. So rather than moaning "mesmer so godlike now even more godlike...", suggest accurate solutions for balancing the phantasms spam in pvp.

I think you'll find many of us on here fairly level headed regarding what needs balancing on mesmer and as such we make suggestions on things to be nerfed. From my perspective I do think there are a number of things that need to be reigned in for the state of the game, which I don't feel is worth the effort for me to go into detail on in this thread.

There wasn't any hyperbole in that post.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"MikeL.8260" said:I'd look through the Mesmer forums and then post about my "case" on Phantasms rework. We had been asking this for what feels like years to no end and now that we finally got it you want to revert everything back just because you had a bad game in PvP..
  • Illusionary Defender is hitting people for 18k multiple times due to resummons.
  • Illusionary Disenchanter is hitting for 10k+ as well.
  • The 10+ clone spam makes it almost impossible to tell what's going on. Not only does it render tab target nearly useless, but click targetting as well.
  • It is impossible to discern which clone is which because they just resummon themselves.
  • Mirage is still extremely difficult to pressure due to the nature of Mirage Cloak.
  • Chronomancer resummoning is even stronger than Mirage's (albeit a weaker MU).
  • Mesmer can also hit 20k+ damage from stealth repeatedly on a short cooldown without any tells if you don't see the mesmer coming. By the time the mesmer leaves stealth you die unless you can react an almost instant burst with quickness with a stunbreak that's also an evade or an invulnerability skill.
  • Chronomancer has access to 18+ seconds of alacrity as well as permanent EVERY boon in the game including 25 stacks of might. Core and Mirage do as well (minus the alacrity).
  • Mirage has the highest access to on-demand invulnerability.

etc. etc. Mesmers are extremely broken.

Just because you've been asking to make your class completely overpowered for years doesn't make it right. (lol)

Way to miss the point completely, nevermind the hyperbole (ie impossible to have more than 3 clones out at once unless having shattered a set (for clarity you shatter 3 clones just before more phantasms turn into clones or you spawn more by other means making it seem like there are more than 3 on the field at once) because clones overwrite each other if they haven't been shattered, lol at tab targeting issues especially if difficulties between phantasms and the player which clearly do not look alike, actually Chrono has the highest access to on demand invuln through F5+F4 and alacrity because evade is not invuln... I could go on but cba).

The rework is fine and necessary to incentivise the use of the class mechanic (shatters) in every game mode. It was such a large change that there's bound to be balance issues. All that is needed is to look at phantasm skills and traits and interactions such as chronophantsma, imagined burden and so on, for balancing.

I remember seeing this post somewhere but can’t remember where. But it was picked apart and a lot refuted. I mean he’s wrong concerning clones, boons, and well just about everything. So it really won’t do any good as he, and the players like him, won’t listen nor ask for help so they just complain.

Oh, you mean the one where I received 12 upvotes? LUL

Oh you mean the post that received 12 upvotes by people that probably never got out of bronze? Or the 12 upvotes that would be even less if we had a proper downvote system?

And what does is the picture supposed to prove? That you can’t count boons? Because for someone with permanent access to all boons you sure are missing 3 of them. Not to mention stab get stripped quickly so it’s definitely not permanent.Or does it prove you have no idea the difference between clone and phantasm? Because you have 3 clones up, the rest are phantasms. This is important because one does next to nothing, the other does actual damage. If you actually wanted to have an intelligent conversation then we are actively coming up with ideas to help tone phantasm spam down without breaking the class. But I doubt you’re interested in that.

Or does the picture how you can slay the almighty golem that lets you sit there and pop everything and never dodge? Doing something on a golem is completely different than in an actual team fight with AoE and cleave.

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@Jace al Thor.6745 said:

@"MikeL.8260" said:I'd look through the Mesmer forums and then post about my "case" on Phantasms rework. We had been asking this for what feels like years to no end and now that we finally got it you want to revert everything back just because you had a bad game in PvP..
  • Illusionary Defender is hitting people for 18k multiple times due to resummons.
  • Illusionary Disenchanter is hitting for 10k+ as well.
  • The 10+ clone spam makes it almost impossible to tell what's going on. Not only does it render tab target nearly useless, but click targetting as well.
  • It is impossible to discern which clone is which because they just resummon themselves.
  • Mirage is still extremely difficult to pressure due to the nature of Mirage Cloak.
  • Chronomancer resummoning is even stronger than Mirage's (albeit a weaker MU).
  • Mesmer can also hit 20k+ damage from stealth repeatedly on a short cooldown without any tells if you don't see the mesmer coming. By the time the mesmer leaves stealth you die unless you can react an almost instant burst with quickness with a stunbreak that's also an evade or an invulnerability skill.
  • Chronomancer has access to 18+ seconds of alacrity as well as permanent EVERY boon in the game including 25 stacks of might. Core and Mirage do as well (minus the alacrity).
  • Mirage has the highest access to on-demand invulnerability.

etc. etc. Mesmers are extremely broken.

Just because you've been asking to make your class completely overpowered for years doesn't make it right. (lol)

Way to miss the point completely, nevermind the hyperbole (ie impossible to have more than 3 clones out at once unless having shattered a set (for clarity you shatter 3 clones just before more phantasms turn into clones or you spawn more by other means making it seem like there are more than 3 on the field at once) because clones overwrite each other if they haven't been shattered, lol at tab targeting issues especially if difficulties between phantasms and the player which clearly do not look alike, actually Chrono has the highest access to on demand invuln through F5+F4 and alacrity because evade is not invuln... I could go on but cba).

The rework is fine and necessary to incentivise the use of the class mechanic (shatters) in every game mode. It was such a large change that there's bound to be balance issues. All that is needed is to look at phantasm skills and traits and interactions such as chronophantsma, imagined burden and so on, for balancing.

I remember seeing this post somewhere but can’t remember where. But it was picked apart and a lot refuted. I mean he’s wrong concerning clones, boons, and well just about everything. So it really won’t do any good as he, and the players like him, won’t listen nor ask for help so they just complain.

Oh, you mean the one where I received 12 upvotes? LUL

Oh you mean the post that received 12 upvotes by people that probably never got out of bronze? Or the 12 upvotes that would be even less if we had a proper downvote system?

And what does is the picture supposed to prove? That you can’t count boons? Because for someone with permanent access to all boons you sure are missing 3 of them. Not to mention stab get stripped quickly so it’s definitely not permanent.Or does it prove you have no idea the difference between clone and phantasm? Because you have 3 clones up, the rest are phantasms. This is important because one does next to nothing, the other does actual damage. If you actually wanted to have an intelligent conversation then we are actively coming up with ideas to help tone phantasm spam down without breaking the class. But I doubt you’re interested in that.

Or does the picture how you can slay the almighty golem that lets you sit there and pop everything and never dodge? Doing something on a golem is completely different than in an actual team fight with AoE and cleave.

Check the images again:https://imgur.com/a/RYvCdhttps://imgur.com/a/sw17x

Again, your entire argument is based off of semantics.

Rank 4 on the NA leaderboards is a mesmer who used this exact build to win about 20 matches in a row. The build overwhelms people because it's not unlike fighting a small army. Every phantasm you summon/shatter has the same amount of boons the player has, which are then shared back and forth leading to permanent everything. You can't tell what's being shattered and what's not because you constantly have a massive amount of clones running at you, and the ones that aren't hit you anywhere from 6-18k. This has been caught on multiple streams, multiple times, with the streamer suddenly hit by a single clone for half their health (or more). It is also easy to replicate, and many mesmers have been using these builds in ranked/unranked/dueling servers. The mini-army also renders tab targetting 10x harder (literally), because if you lose the target on the actual mesmer, you have to press tab anywhere from 10-15 times in team fight to get back to the right one. Multiple mesmers exacerbate this problem. Also, projectiles are also rendered near useless against a mesmer unless they pierce. Having so many AI in the vicinity make it extremely difficult to hit anything but them, because the mesmer can just stand behind a bodyblocking clone and nullify your damage.

Either way, the point still stands. The rework made mesmers even stronger than they already were. They did not need buffs, yet received them anyways in spite of all of the complaints and urges not to.

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How about this: the phantasm rework was bad for the game because it exacerbated problems with an overperforming profession, but the phantasm rework is good for the profession by addressing opposing mechanical design elements.

Both can be true.

The way forward is not to revert the changes and return the profession to a state of opposed mechanics for the sake of alleviating temporary imbalance. The way forward is to address any imbalances directly and specifically. This goes for any profession that may find itself in this situation.

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This has been said before, back in the HoT meta. Mesmer had illusionary reversion nerfed. I do agree that there is a lot of visual noise in sPvP at the moment, mesmer is one of the biggest culprits of this, and it is annoying. However the biggest problem I have is that mesmer has been pushed into playing power burst builds or axe for condition.

So what were left with is another class which is playing burst builds, this is what is not healthy for sPvP. People go on and on about sustain builds and bunker builds, but sadly to an extent they are healthy for the game mode. All the time you are going to be playing duo or solo que. Condi mirage just had way too much evasion, too many stacks of confusion, stunbreaking and mobility. None of those issues have been addressed, all they have done is converted the class into playing a squishier build, which can take you from 100-0 a lot faster. Another class which sits off point and picks enemies off with ridiculous burst.

So the problem with everyone running burst builds is that they either synergize extremely well with necros and firebrands or they get absolutely stomped without them. So you can say that it's a swap class issue, but you're wrong. The PoF specs are simply just too powerful, some classes just have to much burst capabilites with and without mobility, others just simply don't work with the offensive +1200 stats that we have. Currently a berserker holo can sit behind a necro and a firebrand and make short work of any squishy comp, and there's nothing you can do about it because you're playing some burst build which is incapable of ressing allies.

With a nice balanced sustain meta, not like scourge or firebrand, more like weaver. You have teams that are capable of regrouping and surviving escaping outnumbered situations. That is healthy. What we have now is one person making a mistake, and you're snowballed with burst for the rest of the game.

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Anet said they don't want the mesmer player having to decide between let phnatasm live or shatter. This decision gets deleted by turning phantasm into clones after the first attack already. It's not needed that phantasm don't count into the maximum 3 illusion up rule, its not necessary that thery do not get shattered as phantasms and it is not necessary that they do such insane dmg on the one attack they have (at least not in WvW/ PvP, ofc for PvE they need some more impact compared to just let 3 strong phantasms live all time and only autoattck through the content but for that we get PvP/WvW skill split or not?).

I said it already, i think the phantasm rule should get changed back for PvP and WvW, they should count to the maximum limit of 3 again and they should get shattered even before the one attack is finished, so the mesmer has to look for his phantasm, if he want him to finish the first attack before shatter. Shattermesm had to look for this since game release. More than 3 illusions up is also just too much screen clutter.

Also some phantasm doing too much dmg, a higher cd is good but not enough, when you have phantasm hit with 8k+ the mesmer don't need them a second time in a fight to win. A shattermesmer never let the phantasm live longer than one attack since game release so there is no reason to give them such insane dmg only because they become clones after first attack (what is a buff for shattermes already). An npc carried build that just can brainless spam high dmg phantasm is noting you want in PvP/WvW, no one liked necro minion master nec or turret engi because it carries low skill by npcs.

For the next balance patch in PvP/ WvW i would like to see a dmg reduction on staff, sword offhand and utility phantasms (maybe even pistol) in additon to the higher cd and that phantasm count into the maximum 3 rule again and get shattered also as long as they are phantasms already.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"MikeL.8260" said:I'd look through the Mesmer forums and then post about my "case" on Phantasms rework. We had been asking this for what feels like years to no end and now that we finally got it you want to revert everything back just because you had a bad game in PvP..
  • Illusionary Defender is hitting people for 18k multiple times due to resummons.
  • Illusionary Disenchanter is hitting for 10k+ as well.
  • The 10+ clone spam makes it almost impossible to tell what's going on. Not only does it render tab target nearly useless, but click targetting as well.
  • It is impossible to discern which clone is which because they just resummon themselves.
  • Mirage is still extremely difficult to pressure due to the nature of Mirage Cloak.
  • Chronomancer resummoning is even stronger than Mirage's (albeit a weaker MU).
  • Mesmer can also hit 20k+ damage from stealth repeatedly on a short cooldown without any tells if you don't see the mesmer coming. By the time the mesmer leaves stealth you die unless you can react an almost instant burst with quickness with a stunbreak that's also an evade or an invulnerability skill.
  • Chronomancer has access to 18+ seconds of alacrity as well as permanent EVERY boon in the game including 25 stacks of might. Core and Mirage do as well (minus the alacrity).
  • Mirage has the highest access to on-demand invulnerability.

etc. etc. Mesmers are extremely broken.

Just because you've been asking to make your class completely overpowered for years doesn't make it right. (lol)

mesmers were overpowered even before this rework, so that can't be the case.

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I think Mesmers having more than 3 clones (correct me if i'm wrong) is a bug. I thought that the limit of clones was limited to 3, and the shatter mechanic shatters them all. If this is the case, then what needs to happen, is when new clones are created from skills while the threshold has been reached, the old clones need to just disappear, and not be shatterable, in order to maintain the cap at 3. Again, please correct me if I am wrong, I don't actually play Mesmer so I am unsure of what the cap actually is or Mesmer clones.

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@Ghos.1326 said:I think Mesmers having more than 3 clones (correct me if i'm wrong) is a bug. I thought that the limit of clones was limited to 3, and the shatter mechanic shatters them all. If this is the case, then what needs to happen, is when new clones are created from skills while the threshold has been reached, the old clones need to just disappear, and not be shatterable, in order to maintain the cap at 3. Again, please correct me if I am wrong, I don't actually play Mesmer so I am unsure of what the cap actually is or Mesmer clones.

Yes maximum clone limit is still 3, the problem is, that phantasm have no limit and don't count into the limit of clones anymore. So mesmer can have more than 3 Illusions up.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"MikeL.8260" said:I'd look through the Mesmer forums and then post about my "case" on Phantasms rework. We had been asking this for what feels like years to no end and now that we finally got it you want to revert everything back just because you had a bad game in PvP..
  • Illusionary Defender is hitting people for 18k multiple times due to resummons.
  • Illusionary Disenchanter is hitting for 10k+ as well.
  • The 10+ clone spam makes it almost impossible to tell what's going on. Not only does it render tab target nearly useless, but click targetting as well.
  • It is impossible to discern which clone is which because they just resummon themselves.
  • Mirage is still extremely difficult to pressure due to the nature of Mirage Cloak.
  • Chronomancer resummoning is even stronger than Mirage's (albeit a weaker MU).
  • Mesmer can also hit 20k+ damage from stealth repeatedly on a short cooldown without any tells if you don't see the mesmer coming. By the time the mesmer leaves stealth you die unless you can react an almost instant burst with quickness with a stunbreak that's also an evade or an invulnerability skill.
  • Chronomancer has access to 18+ seconds of alacrity as well as permanent EVERY boon in the game including 25 stacks of might. Core and Mirage do as well (minus the alacrity).
  • Mirage has the highest access to on-demand invulnerability.

etc. etc. Mesmers are extremely broken.

Just because you've been asking to make your class completely overpowered for years doesn't make it right. (lol)

Way to miss the point completely, nevermind the hyperbole (ie impossible to have more than 3 clones out at once unless having shattered a set (for clarity you shatter 3 clones just before more phantasms turn into clones or you spawn more by other means making it seem like there are more than 3 on the field at once) because clones overwrite each other, lol at tab targeting issues especially if difficulties between phantasms and the player which clearly do not look alike, actually Chrono has the highest access to on demand invuln through F5+F4 and alacrity because evade is not invuln... I could go on but cba).

The rework is fine and necessary to incentivise the use of the class mechanic (shatters) in every game mode. It was such a large change that there's bound to be balance issues. All that is needed is to look at phantasm skills and traits and interactions such as chronophantsma, imagined burden and so on, for balancing.

I didn't read what you wrote because I'm 99% sure your post consists of you arguing semantics.

With that being said, mesmers were already regarded as overpowered before the rework. The fact that the changes made them even stronger is ridiculous.

Mesmers:
  • Do too much damage
  • Are too hard to hit
  • Have every boon permanently
  • Have multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage
  • etc. etc.

Actually half of it was l2p, not only semantics so you could continue to keep your head buried or become more aware of how mesmer works so you can discuss the balance issues objectively rather than a subjective rant on the matter full of hyperbole because you hate mesmers. That goes for the OP and others on here as well.

As apharma said - this was a mechanical change necessary for the game - be aware of the difference between fundamental mechanical changes and balance, the latter of which is bound to be out of order when such a large change is made to the foundations of a class. So rather than moaning "mesmer so godlike now even more godlike...", suggest accurate solutions for balancing the phantasms spam in pvp.

I think you'll find many of us on here fairly level headed regarding what needs balancing on mesmer and as such we make suggestions on things to be nerfed. From my perspective I do think there are a number of things that need to be reigned in for the state of the game, which I don't feel is worth the effort for me to go into detail on in this thread.

There wasn't any hyperbole in that post.

Too much damage relative to what - every class can do "too much" damage.Too hard to hit - I can build a melee ranger with ridiculously high evade uptime for what it's worth - have had thieves complain at me about hacking in the past. In any case, Elusive Mind will be nerfed in some way, and potentially mirage dodge could be prevented from functioning when cced. Otherwise I don't see the problem.Every boon permanently - this is pure hyperbole that doesn't apply anywhere outside of organised instanced pve with set rotations.Multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage - the only true "massive" sources of direct damage is F1 and some of the new phantasms (which has been said they can be balanced accordingly). There are multiple sources of regular/average damage which when comboed together can make for a massive damage spike. Do I think it is balanced? No, I think there should be more tradeoff building for pure power burst and survivability, however the ability to deal massive amounts of damage is widespread across most classes right now.I could go on regarding your previous post...

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@bravan.3876 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:I think Mesmers having more than 3 clones (correct me if i'm wrong) is a bug. I thought that the limit of clones was limited to 3, and the shatter mechanic shatters them all. If this is the case, then what needs to happen, is when new clones are created from skills while the threshold has been reached, the old clones need to just disappear, and not be shatterable, in order to maintain the cap at 3. Again, please correct me if I am wrong, I don't actually play Mesmer so I am unsure of what the cap actually is or Mesmer clones.

Yes maximum clone limit is still 3, the problem is, that phantasm have no limit and don't count into the limit of clones anymore. So mesmer can have more than 3 Illusions up.

Possible solutions:

  • shortenting cast times of phantasms so they don't stay on the field too long (ie iWarlock beam duration) before turning into clones.
  • removing double izerker from Imagined Burden, replacing it with some other buff.
  • taking a long and careful look at how to adjust chronophantasma, signet of ether and F5 to minimise phantasm spam gameplay - perhaps with a cap on maximum number of phantasms out at any one time.
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@Ghos.1326 said:

@"MikeL.8260" said:I'd look through the Mesmer forums and then post about my "case" on Phantasms rework. We had been asking this for what feels like years to no end and now that we finally got it you want to revert everything back just because you had a bad game in PvP..
  • Illusionary Defender is hitting people for 18k multiple times due to resummons.
  • Illusionary Disenchanter is hitting for 10k+ as well.
  • The 10+ clone spam makes it almost impossible to tell what's going on. Not only does it render tab target nearly useless, but click targetting as well.
  • It is impossible to discern which clone is which because they just resummon themselves.
  • Mirage is still extremely difficult to pressure due to the nature of Mirage Cloak.
  • Chronomancer resummoning is even stronger than Mirage's (albeit a weaker MU).
  • Mesmer can also hit 20k+ damage from stealth repeatedly on a short cooldown without any tells if you don't see the mesmer coming. By the time the mesmer leaves stealth you die unless you can react an almost instant burst with quickness with a stunbreak that's also an evade or an invulnerability skill.
  • Chronomancer has access to 18+ seconds of alacrity as well as permanent EVERY boon in the game including 25 stacks of might. Core and Mirage do as well (minus the alacrity).
  • Mirage has the highest access to on-demand invulnerability.

etc. etc. Mesmers are extremely broken.

Just because you've been asking to make your class completely overpowered for years doesn't make it right. (lol)

mesmers were overpowered even before this rework, so that can't be the case.

Power mesmer never was a thing in PvP since HoT anymore, even before HoT it was barely viable. But since HoT mesmer always had some boring and broken meta (bunkerchrono, condichrono , condimirage, phantasmspam mirage). Just saying Mesmer were always op is just wrong and overhype nerfs not needed at all. When we talk about balance a class and give it skill need back, then we need to make out which builds are a problem and which not. Nerfing the skillbased builds of mesmer (pure glass shatter mesmer) which are not op at all atm will make them completely unplayable.

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@Itz Jay.8941 said:This has been said before, back in the HoT meta. Mesmer had illusionary reversion nerfed. I do agree that there is a lot of visual noise in sPvP at the moment, mesmer is one of the biggest culprits of this, and it is annoying. However the biggest problem I have is that mesmer has been pushed into playing power burst builds or axe for condition.

So what were left with is another class which is playing burst builds, this is what is not healthy for sPvP. People go on and on about sustain builds and bunker builds, but sadly to an extent they are healthy for the game mode. All the time you are going to be playing duo or solo que. Condi mirage just had way too much evasion, too many stacks of confusion, stunbreaking and mobility. None of those issues have been addressed, all they have done is converted the class into playing a squishier build, which can take you from 100-0 a lot faster. Another class which sits off point and picks enemies off with ridiculous burst.

So the problem with everyone running burst builds is that they either synergize extremely well with necros and firebrands or they get absolutely stomped without them. So you can say that it's a swap class issue, but you're wrong. The PoF specs are simply just too powerful, some classes just have to much burst capabilites with and without mobility, others just simply don't work with the offensive +1200 stats that we have. Currently a berserker holo can sit behind a necro and a firebrand and make short work of any squishy comp, and there's nothing you can do about it because you're playing some burst build which is incapable of ressing allies.

With a nice balanced sustain meta, not like scourge or firebrand, more like weaver. You have teams that are capable of regrouping and surviving escaping outnumbered situations. That is healthy. What we have now is one person making a mistake, and you're snowballed with burst for the rest of the game.

I don't know where you're seeing all the confusion unless they're using blinding dissipation and ineptitude, but otherwise we have few sources of confusion now since Illusionary Retribution got changed to Cry of Pain (so removed from every shatter other than F2), and removed from all of axe as well. Now it's mostly torment with bleeds and burn if using torch and staff.

You can be assured that Elusive Mind is going to get nerfed.

Mobility - I'd argue the mobility is fine as you have to trait and build for maximising it and/or otherwise sacrifice some other aspects. Likewise with evasion - this is only truly strong in wvw where you can have the endurance regen food and energy sigils are still 50% endurance refund. In pvp I'd argue it's not out of line. I'd sooner see direct damage output nerfed than the survivability - so pushing mesmer more into a light bruiser with sustain through evasion/mobility and lower huge burst damage, than a 100-0 burst+bruiser. In any case, power mirage is more dangerous than pure condi mirage right now.

Edit - I should add for the record I agree with wanting to move away from the 100-0 gameplay with hard damage avoidance being the only form of defence.

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@Ghos.1326 said:I think Mesmers having more than 3 clones (correct me if i'm wrong) is a bug. I thought that the limit of clones was limited to 3, and the shatter mechanic shatters them all. If this is the case, then what needs to happen, is when new clones are created from skills while the threshold has been reached, the old clones need to just disappear, and not be shatterable, in order to maintain the cap at 3. Again, please correct me if I am wrong, I don't actually play Mesmer so I am unsure of what the cap actually is or Mesmer clones.

It's always been the case that they queue up.

You shatter some clones - before they get destroyed you can summon more so it looks like there are more than 3 on the field - but really the first set are running off to shatter so going to die anyway.

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