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The case for reverting the Mesmer phantasm rework.


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@Curunen.8729 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:I think Mesmers having more than 3 clones (correct me if i'm wrong) is a bug. I thought that the limit of clones was limited to 3, and the shatter mechanic shatters them all. If this is the case, then what needs to happen, is when new clones are created from skills while the threshold has been reached, the old clones need to just disappear, and not be shatterable, in order to maintain the cap at 3. Again, please correct me if I am wrong, I don't actually play Mesmer so I am unsure of what the cap actually is or Mesmer clones.

Yes maximum clone limit is still 3, the problem is, that phantasm have no limit and don't count into the limit of clones anymore. So mesmer can have more than 3 Illusions up.

Possible solutions:
  • shortenting cast times of phantasms so they don't stay on the field too long (ie iWarlock beam duration) before turning into clones.
  • removing double izerker from Imagined Burden, replacing it with some other buff.
  • taking a long and careful look at how to adjust chronophantasma, signet of ether and F5 to minimise phantasm spam gameplay - perhaps with a cap on maximum number of phantasms out at any one time.

I think that ultimately it will be healthier to spawn clones earlier in the process with phantasm skills. However I don't think that removing the double zerker from imagined burden (one of the most flavorful traits in the game right now imo) or removing the second phantasm from iMage is a good idea. I would rather see it changed so that the clone generation is tied to the skill being used, so that those skills still only summon 1 clone. That would help, especially when its comboed with signet of the ether and F5. And some of the passive clone generation needs to be toned down as well. We already had plenty of illusion generation before this patch, I really have no idea why it was buffed even further, especially in the same patch that allowed us to use any illusion skill to obtain shatter fodder.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:
Yes they can spike every boon for short durations, but some will fall away/run out which is hardly permanent/indefinite.
Example - can mesmer maintain
permanent
quickness in pvp, permanent application of aegis as soon as it is removed, or hell permanent resistance?Show me permanent resistance in pvp (not wvw) for one, on a mesmer by themselves, for an extended fight (ie not a short fight over in a few seconds). Though I doubt you'll be able to because mesmer has three direct ways of accessing resistance - BD with F5 and Signet of Inspiration rng, and Temporal Enchanter - and anyone traiting glamours in pvp you can laugh at and proceed to kill.The fourth is rune of revenant for resistance on heal but this still doesn't make it 100% uptime. So I don't think you know mesmer enough to make a statement like this.
For the record I never said they can't have high uptime of a lot of boons - but you stating "have every boon permanently" is a straight exaggeration.

Here are some screenshots after a single quick rotation.

- 2 minutes of aegis
- 56 seconds of vigor
- 25 stacks of might for 28 seconds
- 2 minutes 29 seconds of fury
- 18 seconds of quickness
- 1 minute 14 seconds of swiftness
- 22 seconds of protection
- 14 seconds of resistance
- 21 seconds of alacrity (while traiting Improved Alacrity which reduces Alacrity Duration by 33%)

"Short durations" LUL"You're exaggerating" LUL

Please achieve the same result in a FIGHT, not s golem. Once you can maintain 2 minutes of aegis against a competent opponent then you’ll be doing something.

Also, I don’t see perma retaliation or resistance in those picks...
I mean, I for one am glad you can do a PvE rotation on a golem. Very proud in fact. Next do it on someone fighting back and show me the same results. And before you go mentioning some guy being top 4 NA running this build... don’t. It’s been widely acknowledged that Anet didn’t scratch the surface of wintraders when they handed out dishonor. Not saying he did, but I’m not saying he didn’t either, knowingly or not.

- 41 seconds of retaliation

Look again.

He's not a wintrader. I got the build from him after I saw him running it in the dueling servers. He had permanent every boon during those fights lol

So you say. But there’s nothing saying he didn’t benefit from that. Which is why it’s a moot point period.

And again, your definition of permanent and every are wrong. Plain and simple. You can keep posting screen shots of you standing at a golem pulling off PvE rotations all day long. But until you actually so video proof of permanent and every you’re case is moot. Golems don’t move, dodge, evade, proc passives, or attack. They are stationary targets. This is the same concept of people posting screen shots of having 40+ stacks of confusion and torment on a golem. On an actual player you will not achieve those stacks. Just like you will not achieve what you are claiming.

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@Curunen.8729 said:

Yes they can spike every boon for short durations, but some will fall away/run out which is hardly permanent/indefinite.
Example - can mesmer maintain
permanent
quickness in pvp, permanent application of aegis as soon as it is removed, or hell permanent resistance?Show me permanent resistance in pvp (not wvw) for one, on a mesmer by themselves, for an extended fight (ie not a short fight over in a few seconds). Though I doubt you'll be able to because mesmer has three direct ways of accessing resistance - BD with F5 and Signet of Inspiration rng, and Temporal Enchanter - and anyone traiting glamours in pvp you can laugh at and proceed to kill.The fourth is rune of revenant for resistance on heal but this still doesn't make it 100% uptime. So I don't think you know mesmer enough to make a statement like this.
For the record I never said they can't have high uptime of a lot of boons - but you stating "have every boon permanently" is a straight exaggeration.

Here are some screenshots after a single quick rotation.
  1. - 2 minutes of aegis
  2. - 56 seconds of vigor
  3. - 25 stacks of might for 28 seconds
  4. - 2 minutes 29 seconds of fury
  5. - 18 seconds of quickness
  6. - 1 minute 14 seconds of swiftness
  7. - 22 seconds of protection
  8. - 14 seconds of resistance
  9. - 21 seconds of alacrity (while traiting Improved Alacrity which reduces Alacrity Duration by 33%)

"Short durations" LUL"You're exaggerating" LUL

Like I said - do that away from a golem where people will remove those boons and/or kitten with your rotation and then let's see. I don't mind if it's someone elses video but show a real fight with competent opponent(s) rather than the golem where you can do pve rotations for permanent every boon (which I did indicate previously is a pve thing) and see if you can maintain all those boons at all times.

Resistance in any case is not permanent.

Alright this is exactly what I mean. Your argument is actually terrible lol

"If you remove the boons, they don't have them anymore"

Yeah no kitten lol

I already said earlier that #4 on the NA leaderboards is running this exact build. If that's not proof that this works in actual matches, I don't know what else to you lol

No kitten, it's exactly the point - permanent boons in a fight means you should be able to reapply them instantly if they get removed. If you can't do this then it's not permanent, how is that not clear? Ah I'm tired of this argument - yes it's a strong build, yes boon support is a thing in pvp, yes you can maintain a lot of boons and yes some of that is going to get nerfed (ie BD nerf incoming). But perma every boon is a pure pve thing that doesn't happen in realistic pvp scenarios where enemies kitten with your "rotations".

I don't rate pvp rank since before HoT tbh, so the fact that one player plays this build (and even then you haven't shown that they are able to have all boons at all times during a real fight where things happen that force you to change up, nevermind reapplying lost boons instantly) doesn't mean much.

In what world does the word "permanent" mean: being able to be reapplied instantly if they get removed?

I've proved my points with many, many screenshots. All you've done is argue semantics and provide extremely vague examples that do nothing to help you in any way.

This build works in team fights, hence why the fourth place on the NA leaderboards is RUNNING THIS BUILD.

This is literally the meta spec that 90% of the mesmers in ranked use. The fact that you don't PvP ranked is exactly why you have no idea what you're talking about. People run meme builds in ranked. That's probably why you have no experience in this matter.

It's also why Anet should display ranked badges next to player's names. You literally just proved my point that people who lack the knowledge/experience should not commentate on situations like this.

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@Jace al Thor.6745 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:
Yes they can spike every boon for short durations, but some will fall away/run out which is hardly permanent/indefinite.
Example - can mesmer maintain
permanent
quickness in pvp, permanent application of aegis as soon as it is removed, or hell permanent resistance?Show me permanent resistance in pvp (not wvw) for one, on a mesmer by themselves, for an extended fight (ie not a short fight over in a few seconds). Though I doubt you'll be able to because mesmer has three direct ways of accessing resistance - BD with F5 and Signet of Inspiration rng, and Temporal Enchanter - and anyone traiting glamours in pvp you can laugh at and proceed to kill.The fourth is rune of revenant for resistance on heal but this still doesn't make it 100% uptime. So I don't think you know mesmer enough to make a statement like this.
For the record I never said they can't have high uptime of a lot of boons - but you stating "have every boon permanently" is a straight exaggeration.

Here are some screenshots after a single quick rotation.

- 2 minutes of aegis
- 56 seconds of vigor
- 25 stacks of might for 28 seconds
- 2 minutes 29 seconds of fury
- 18 seconds of quickness
- 1 minute 14 seconds of swiftness
- 22 seconds of protection
- 14 seconds of resistance
- 21 seconds of alacrity (while traiting Improved Alacrity which reduces Alacrity Duration by 33%)

"Short durations" LUL"You're exaggerating" LUL

Please achieve the same result in a FIGHT, not s golem. Once you can maintain 2 minutes of aegis against a competent opponent then you’ll be doing something.

Also, I don’t see perma retaliation or resistance in those picks...
I mean, I for one am glad you can do a PvE rotation on a golem. Very proud in fact. Next do it on someone fighting back and show me the same results. And before you go mentioning some guy being top 4 NA running this build... don’t. It’s been widely acknowledged that Anet didn’t scratch the surface of wintraders when they handed out dishonor. Not saying he did, but I’m not saying he didn’t either, knowingly or not.

- 41 seconds of retaliation

Look again.

He's not a wintrader. I got the build from him after I saw him running it in the dueling servers. He had permanent every boon during those fights lol

So you say. But there’s nothing saying he didn’t benefit from that. Which is why it’s a moot point period.

And again, your definition of permanent and every are wrong. Plain and simple. You can keep posting screen shots of you standing at a golem pulling off PvE rotations all day long. But until you actually so video proof of permanent and every you’re case is moot. Golems don’t move, dodge, evade, proc passives, or attack. They are stationary targets. This is the same concept of people posting screen shots of having 40+ stacks of confusion and torment on a golem. On an actual player you will not achieve those stacks. Just like you will not achieve what you are claiming.

If it was a moot point, then why did you bring it up in the first place? You tried to counter my argument and when I proved you wrong you say "it doesn't count."

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:
Yes they can spike every boon for short durations, but some will fall away/run out which is hardly permanent/indefinite.
Example - can mesmer maintain
permanent
quickness in pvp, permanent application of aegis as soon as it is removed, or hell permanent resistance?Show me permanent resistance in pvp (not wvw) for one, on a mesmer by themselves, for an extended fight (ie not a short fight over in a few seconds). Though I doubt you'll be able to because mesmer has three direct ways of accessing resistance - BD with F5 and Signet of Inspiration rng, and Temporal Enchanter - and anyone traiting glamours in pvp you can laugh at and proceed to kill.The fourth is rune of revenant for resistance on heal but this still doesn't make it 100% uptime. So I don't think you know mesmer enough to make a statement like this.
For the record I never said they can't have high uptime of a lot of boons - but you stating "have every boon permanently" is a straight exaggeration.

Here are some screenshots after a single quick rotation.

- 2 minutes of aegis
- 56 seconds of vigor
- 25 stacks of might for 28 seconds
- 2 minutes 29 seconds of fury
- 18 seconds of quickness
- 1 minute 14 seconds of swiftness
- 22 seconds of protection
- 14 seconds of resistance
- 21 seconds of alacrity (while traiting Improved Alacrity which reduces Alacrity Duration by 33%)

"Short durations" LUL"You're exaggerating" LUL

Please achieve the same result in a FIGHT, not s golem. Once you can maintain 2 minutes of aegis against a competent opponent then you’ll be doing something.

Also, I don’t see perma retaliation or resistance in those picks...
I mean, I for one am glad you can do a PvE rotation on a golem. Very proud in fact. Next do it on someone fighting back and show me the same results. And before you go mentioning some guy being top 4 NA running this build... don’t. It’s been widely acknowledged that Anet didn’t scratch the surface of wintraders when they handed out dishonor. Not saying he did, but I’m not saying he didn’t either, knowingly or not.

- 41 seconds of retaliation

Look again.

He's not a wintrader. I got the build from him after I saw him running it in the dueling servers. He had permanent every boon during those fights lol

So you say. But there’s nothing saying he didn’t benefit from that. Which is why it’s a moot point period.

And again, your definition of permanent and every are wrong. Plain and simple. You can keep posting screen shots of you standing at a golem pulling off PvE rotations all day long. But until you actually so video proof of permanent and every you’re case is moot. Golems don’t move, dodge, evade, proc passives, or attack. They are stationary targets. This is the same concept of people posting screen shots of having 40+ stacks of confusion and torment on a golem. On an actual player you will not achieve those stacks. Just like you will not achieve what you are claiming.

If it was a moot point, then why did you bring it up in the first place? You tried to counter my argument and when I proved you wrong you say "it doesn't count."

You brought it up. Multiple times. You needed a bit of clarification to understand rank means nothing when you could have been artificially helped to achieve it.

And you say all this but choose to not post a video of yourself playing said build. Why is that? Because you know you can’t maintain what you claim. You’ve not proven me wrong at any time. Your claim is that it can maintain every boon permanently. It’s been point out several times that doing so on a golem is not the same as doing so in an actual match. Yet you keep posting screen shots rather than a video. Its on you to provide irrefutable evidence to hold up your claims and you can’t do it. Aegis is not, nor will it be, permanent. One hit strips it completely and then you have to attempt to get it back. Resistance and retaliation are on rng outside of f5.

Show me a video of you in a match maintaining what you claim and I’ll change my tune. Until then you’ve got nothing.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:@Curunen.8729@"Jace al Thor.6745"

And whoever else said this build doesn't work in actual fights:

  1. https://imgur.com/a/vCmzC
  2. https://imgur.com/a/0h4he
  3. https://imgur.com/a/m2DfT
  4. https://imgur.com/a/2MY4w
  5. https://imgur.com/a/AAh5k

The dude died before Cigi could even finish his rotations.

More screen shots.... seriously? They don’t prove anything. Until you post s video to show case this is working against competent opponents in actual matches(dueling is a no go as it’s not even supported) then everything is... well up to interpretation of a picture. That proves nothing.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:@Curunen.8729@"Jace al Thor.6745"

And whoever else said this build doesn't work in actual fights:

  1. https://imgur.com/a/vCmzC
  2. https://imgur.com/a/0h4he
  3. https://imgur.com/a/m2DfT
  4. https://imgur.com/a/2MY4w
  5. https://imgur.com/a/AAh5k

The dude died before Cigi could even finish his rotations.

(tongue in cheek) - where's the resistance?

Video would be better than screenshots, to first see exactly how often various boons are up and second to see whether the opponent (who being a mesmer I'd have expected to at least pressure this guy better) played well or was useless.

Edit - if this guy's top 4 NA, does he have a stream or channel or something?

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@Jace al Thor.6745 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:
Yes they can spike every boon for short durations, but some will fall away/run out which is hardly permanent/indefinite.
Example - can mesmer maintain
permanent
quickness in pvp, permanent application of aegis as soon as it is removed, or hell permanent resistance?Show me permanent resistance in pvp (not wvw) for one, on a mesmer by themselves, for an extended fight (ie not a short fight over in a few seconds). Though I doubt you'll be able to because mesmer has three direct ways of accessing resistance - BD with F5 and Signet of Inspiration rng, and Temporal Enchanter - and anyone traiting glamours in pvp you can laugh at and proceed to kill.The fourth is rune of revenant for resistance on heal but this still doesn't make it 100% uptime. So I don't think you know mesmer enough to make a statement like this.
For the record I never said they can't have high uptime of a lot of boons - but you stating "have every boon permanently" is a straight exaggeration.

Here are some screenshots after a single quick rotation.

- 2 minutes of aegis
- 56 seconds of vigor
- 25 stacks of might for 28 seconds
- 2 minutes 29 seconds of fury
- 18 seconds of quickness
- 1 minute 14 seconds of swiftness
- 22 seconds of protection
- 14 seconds of resistance
- 21 seconds of alacrity (while traiting Improved Alacrity which reduces Alacrity Duration by 33%)

"Short durations" LUL"You're exaggerating" LUL

Please achieve the same result in a FIGHT, not s golem. Once you can maintain 2 minutes of aegis against a competent opponent then you’ll be doing something.

Also, I don’t see perma retaliation or resistance in those picks...
I mean, I for one am glad you can do a PvE rotation on a golem. Very proud in fact. Next do it on someone fighting back and show me the same results. And before you go mentioning some guy being top 4 NA running this build... don’t. It’s been widely acknowledged that Anet didn’t scratch the surface of wintraders when they handed out dishonor. Not saying he did, but I’m not saying he didn’t either, knowingly or not.

- 41 seconds of retaliation

Look again.

He's not a wintrader. I got the build from him after I saw him running it in the dueling servers. He had permanent every boon during those fights lol

So you say. But there’s nothing saying he didn’t benefit from that. Which is why it’s a moot point period.

And again, your definition of permanent and every are wrong. Plain and simple. You can keep posting screen shots of you standing at a golem pulling off PvE rotations all day long. But until you actually so video proof of permanent and every you’re case is moot. Golems don’t move, dodge, evade, proc passives, or attack. They are stationary targets. This is the same concept of people posting screen shots of having 40+ stacks of confusion and torment on a golem. On an actual player you will not achieve those stacks. Just like you will not achieve what you are claiming.

If it was a moot point, then why did you bring it up in the first place? You tried to counter my argument and when I proved you wrong you say "it doesn't count."

You brought it up. Multiple times. You needed a bit of clarification to understand rank means nothing when you could have been artificially helped to achieve it.

You'd still get rolled by anyone in the top 10. Saying that high ranking players mean nothing because they could have potentially been affected/contributed to wintrading is just an excuse bad players use to justify their own lack of skill.

Moving on.

And you say all this but choose to not post a video of yourself playing said build. Why is that? Because you know you can’t maintain what you claim. You’ve not proven me wrong at any time. Your claim is that it can maintain every boon permanently. It’s been point out several times that doing so on a golem is not the same as doing so in an actual match. Yet you keep posting screen shots rather than a video. Its on you to provide irrefutable evidence to hold up your claims and you can’t do it. Aegis is not, nor will it be, permanent. One hit strips it completely and then you have to attempt to get it back. Resistance and retaliation are on rng outside of f5.

I just linked screenshots of someone using the exact build I was. I haven't posted a video of myself "playing said build" because I don't have any recording software. lol

Again, in what fucking world does the word "permanent" mean: being able to be reapplied instantly if it get removed? The argue that "Aegis can't be permanent because 1 hit strips" it is actually so stupid. Because the counter to that extremely poor reasoning would be "Aegis is permanent because if you don't get hit it doesn't get stripped."

Show me a video of you in a match maintaining what you claim and I’ll change my tune. Until then you’ve got nothing.

You wanted me to prove it works in an actual fight. So I posted screenshots of the exact same build being used to win a duel. The proof is there.

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@Curunen.8729 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:@Curunen.8729@"Jace al Thor.6745"

And whoever else said this build doesn't work in actual fights:

The dude died before Cigi could even finish his rotations.

(tongue in cheek) - where's the resistance?

Video would be better than screenshots, to first see exactly how often various boons are up and second to see whether the opponent (who being a mesmer I'd have expected to at least pressure this guy better) played well or was useless.

Edit - if this guy's top 4 NA, does he have a stream or channel or something?

https://www.twitch.tv/citysnowfall

Yes he does. He streamed a few days ago.

No vods and no schedule posted but this is his twitch.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:
Yes they can spike every boon for short durations, but some will fall away/run out which is hardly permanent/indefinite.
Example - can mesmer maintain
permanent
quickness in pvp, permanent application of aegis as soon as it is removed, or hell permanent resistance?Show me permanent resistance in pvp (not wvw) for one, on a mesmer by themselves, for an extended fight (ie not a short fight over in a few seconds). Though I doubt you'll be able to because mesmer has three direct ways of accessing resistance - BD with F5 and Signet of Inspiration rng, and Temporal Enchanter - and anyone traiting glamours in pvp you can laugh at and proceed to kill.The fourth is rune of revenant for resistance on heal but this still doesn't make it 100% uptime. So I don't think you know mesmer enough to make a statement like this.
For the record I never said they can't have high uptime of a lot of boons - but you stating "have every boon permanently" is a straight exaggeration.

Here are some screenshots after a single quick rotation.

- 2 minutes of aegis
- 56 seconds of vigor
- 25 stacks of might for 28 seconds
- 2 minutes 29 seconds of fury
- 18 seconds of quickness
- 1 minute 14 seconds of swiftness
- 22 seconds of protection
- 14 seconds of resistance
- 21 seconds of alacrity (while traiting Improved Alacrity which reduces Alacrity Duration by 33%)

"Short durations" LUL"You're exaggerating" LUL

Please achieve the same result in a FIGHT, not s golem. Once you can maintain 2 minutes of aegis against a competent opponent then you’ll be doing something.

Also, I don’t see perma retaliation or resistance in those picks...
I mean, I for one am glad you can do a PvE rotation on a golem. Very proud in fact. Next do it on someone fighting back and show me the same results. And before you go mentioning some guy being top 4 NA running this build... don’t. It’s been widely acknowledged that Anet didn’t scratch the surface of wintraders when they handed out dishonor. Not saying he did, but I’m not saying he didn’t either, knowingly or not.

- 41 seconds of retaliation

Look again.

He's not a wintrader. I got the build from him after I saw him running it in the dueling servers. He had permanent every boon during those fights lol

So you say. But there’s nothing saying he didn’t benefit from that. Which is why it’s a moot point period.

And again, your definition of permanent and every are wrong. Plain and simple. You can keep posting screen shots of you standing at a golem pulling off PvE rotations all day long. But until you actually so video proof of permanent and every you’re case is moot. Golems don’t move, dodge, evade, proc passives, or attack. They are stationary targets. This is the same concept of people posting screen shots of having 40+ stacks of confusion and torment on a golem. On an actual player you will not achieve those stacks. Just like you will not achieve what you are claiming.

If it was a moot point, then why did you bring it up in the first place? You tried to counter my argument and when I proved you wrong you say "it doesn't count."

You brought it up. Multiple times. You needed a bit of clarification to understand rank means nothing when you could have been artificially helped to achieve it.

You'd still get rolled by anyone in the top 10. Saying that high ranking players mean nothing because they could have potentially been affected/contributed to wintrading is just an excuse bad players use to justify their own lack of skill.

Moving on.

And you say all this but choose to not post a video of yourself playing said build. Why is that? Because you know you can’t maintain what you claim. You’ve not proven me wrong at any time. Your claim is that it can maintain every boon permanently. It’s been point out several times that doing so on a golem is not the same as doing so in an actual match. Yet you keep posting screen shots rather than a video. Its on you to provide irrefutable evidence to hold up your claims and you can’t do it. Aegis is not, nor will it be, permanent. One hit strips it completely and then you have to attempt to get it back. Resistance and retaliation are on rng outside of f5.

I just linked screenshots of someone using the exact build I was. I haven't posted a video of myself "playing said build" because I don't have any recording software. lol

Again, in what kitten world does the word "permanent" mean:
being able to be reapplied instantly if it get removed
? The argue that "Aegis can't be permanent because 1 hit strips" it is actually so stupid. Because the counter to that extremely poor reasoning would be "Aegis is permanent because if you don't get hit it doesn't get stripped."

Show me a video of you in a match maintaining what you claim and I’ll change my tune. Until then you’ve got nothing.

You wanted me to prove it works in an actual fight. So I posted screenshots of the exact same build being used to win a duel. The proof is there.

Aww thanks for assuming my rank buddy. I dropped out of plat to play with my friends so that must absolutely mean I’m a bronze tier. Good for you for figuring that out.

In what world do you live in that permanent doesn’t mean well permanent. You can’t have permanent aegis. Just isn’t going to happen. It’s going to be stripped. I’m sorry if you can’t understand this but it’s going to happen. Whether it’s reapplied or not doesn’t matter. If it’s removed it’s not permanent.

Recording software is free. You can actually use overwolf to record. Not the best but free so go at it!

No you showed screen shots of an unknown fight against an unknown player in a duel, not an actual match. Please try again.

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@bravan.3876 said:Anet said they don't want the mesmer player having to decide between let phnatasm live or shatter. This decision gets deleted by turning phantasm into clones after the first attack already. It's not needed that phantasm don't count into the maximum 3 illusion up rule, its not necessary that thery do not get shattered as phantasms and it is not necessary that they do such insane dmg on the one attack they have (at least not in WvW/ PvP, ofc for PvE they need some more impact compared to just let 3 strong phantasms live all time and only autoattck through the content but for that we get PvP/WvW skill split or not?).

I said it already, i think the phantasm rule should get changed back for PvP and WvW, they should count to the maximum limit of 3 again and they should get shattered even before the one attack is finished, so the mesmer has to look for his phantasm, if he want him to finish the first attack before shatter. Shattermesm had to look for this since game release. More than 3 illusions up is also just too much screen clutter.

Also some phantasm doing too much dmg, a higher cd is good but not enough, when you have phantasm hit with 8k+ the mesmer don't need them a second time in a fight to win. A shattermesmer never let the phantasm live longer than one attack since game release so there is no reason to give them such insane dmg only because they become clones after first attack (what is a buff for shattermes already). An npc carried build that just can brainless spam high dmg phantasm is noting you want in PvP/WvW, no one liked necro minion master nec or turret engi because it carries low skill by npcs.

For the next balance patch in PvP/ WvW i would like to see a dmg reduction on staff, sword offhand and utility phantasms (maybe even pistol) in additon to the higher cd and that phantasm count into the maximum 3 rule again and get shattered also as long as they are phantasms already.

I'm gonna stop you right there.And no I'm not a mesmer main, so I'm going to silence that argument before it even begins.

Mesmer staff- Has no damage attached to it. All it has a little condi that can easily be negated. It is a utility weapon that can give the mesmer an escape, a Phantasm, and occasional boons.

Mesmer sword- Honestly why nerf the damage. It's purely a DPS option that gives you one unreliable block and a phantasm. If you want to go balls to the wall, go for it. But it doesn't up your survivability. Currently, it's doing it's job and its fine.

Pistol- Who..brings pistol? I guess if you want extra CC and Condi? But shield does pistol's job better, while the damage is average at best.

I'm honestly surprised you didn't mention torch or focus LOL.

Though I will agree that the utility phantasms are doing too much spike damage for their own good. A shave in their numbers should suffice, but I understand they wanted to compensate somewhere.

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@Jace al Thor.6745 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:
Yes they can spike every boon for short durations, but some will fall away/run out which is hardly permanent/indefinite.
Example - can mesmer maintain
permanent
quickness in pvp, permanent application of aegis as soon as it is removed, or hell permanent resistance?Show me permanent resistance in pvp (not wvw) for one, on a mesmer by themselves, for an extended fight (ie not a short fight over in a few seconds). Though I doubt you'll be able to because mesmer has three direct ways of accessing resistance - BD with F5 and Signet of Inspiration rng, and Temporal Enchanter - and anyone traiting glamours in pvp you can laugh at and proceed to kill.The fourth is rune of revenant for resistance on heal but this still doesn't make it 100% uptime. So I don't think you know mesmer enough to make a statement like this.
For the record I never said they can't have high uptime of a lot of boons - but you stating "have every boon permanently" is a straight exaggeration.

Here are some screenshots after a single quick rotation.

- 2 minutes of aegis
- 56 seconds of vigor
- 25 stacks of might for 28 seconds
- 2 minutes 29 seconds of fury
- 18 seconds of quickness
- 1 minute 14 seconds of swiftness
- 22 seconds of protection
- 14 seconds of resistance
- 21 seconds of alacrity (while traiting Improved Alacrity which reduces Alacrity Duration by 33%)

"Short durations" LUL"You're exaggerating" LUL

Please achieve the same result in a FIGHT, not s golem. Once you can maintain 2 minutes of aegis against a competent opponent then you’ll be doing something.

Also, I don’t see perma retaliation or resistance in those picks...
I mean, I for one am glad you can do a PvE rotation on a golem. Very proud in fact. Next do it on someone fighting back and show me the same results. And before you go mentioning some guy being top 4 NA running this build... don’t. It’s been widely acknowledged that Anet didn’t scratch the surface of wintraders when they handed out dishonor. Not saying he did, but I’m not saying he didn’t either, knowingly or not.

- 41 seconds of retaliation

Look again.

He's not a wintrader. I got the build from him after I saw him running it in the dueling servers. He had permanent every boon during those fights lol

So you say. But there’s nothing saying he didn’t benefit from that. Which is why it’s a moot point period.

And again, your definition of permanent and every are wrong. Plain and simple. You can keep posting screen shots of you standing at a golem pulling off PvE rotations all day long. But until you actually so video proof of permanent and every you’re case is moot. Golems don’t move, dodge, evade, proc passives, or attack. They are stationary targets. This is the same concept of people posting screen shots of having 40+ stacks of confusion and torment on a golem. On an actual player you will not achieve those stacks. Just like you will not achieve what you are claiming.

If it was a moot point, then why did you bring it up in the first place? You tried to counter my argument and when I proved you wrong you say "it doesn't count."

You brought it up. Multiple times. You needed a bit of clarification to understand rank means nothing when you could have been artificially helped to achieve it.

You'd still get rolled by anyone in the top 10. Saying that high ranking players mean nothing because they could have potentially been affected/contributed to wintrading is just an excuse bad players use to justify their own lack of skill.

Moving on.

And you say all this but choose to not post a video of yourself playing said build. Why is that? Because you know you can’t maintain what you claim. You’ve not proven me wrong at any time. Your claim is that it can maintain every boon permanently. It’s been point out several times that doing so on a golem is not the same as doing so in an actual match. Yet you keep posting screen shots rather than a video. Its on you to provide irrefutable evidence to hold up your claims and you can’t do it. Aegis is not, nor will it be, permanent. One hit strips it completely and then you have to attempt to get it back. Resistance and retaliation are on rng outside of f5.

I just linked screenshots of someone using the exact build I was. I haven't posted a video of myself "playing said build" because I don't have any recording software. lol

Again, in what kitten world does the word "permanent" mean:
being able to be reapplied instantly if it get removed
? The argue that "Aegis can't be permanent because 1 hit strips" it is actually so stupid. Because the counter to that extremely poor reasoning would be "Aegis is permanent because if you don't get hit it doesn't get stripped."

Show me a video of you in a match maintaining what you claim and I’ll change my tune. Until then you’ve got nothing.

You wanted me to prove it works in an actual fight. So I posted screenshots of the exact same build being used to win a duel. The proof is there.

Aww thanks for assuming my rank buddy. I dropped out of plat to play with my friends so that must absolutely mean I’m a bronze tier. Good for you for figuring that out.

Reported for match manipulation. LUL

In what world do you live in that permanent doesn’t mean well permanent. You can’t have permanent aegis. Just isn’t going to happen. It’s going to be stripped. I’m sorry if you can’t understand this but it’s going to happen. Whether it’s reapplied or not doesn’t matter. If it’s removed it’s not permanent.

Well, since your mind can't seem to wrap around this simple concept. Would the words "extremely high uptime on every boon" be better for you? :}

Recording software is free. You can actually use overwolf to record. Not the best but free so go at it!

No you showed screen shots of an unknown fight against an unknown player in a duel, not an actual match. Please try again.

I provide picture evidence. Video evidence isn't required because those screenshots obviously show a duel taking place.

If I decide to download a recording software later, I'll post a video.

Also, who the hell are you to determine who is an unknown player or not? A fight is a fight. No matter what video or picture I post, you'll just say "that doesn't count" because you're so wrong that's all you can say.

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"The boons are short duration"

  • I post screenshots of extremely long duration boons

"This build doesn't work in an actual fight"

  • I post screenshots of this exact build winning a duel and some of the boon durations

"Those players are unknown"

  • What more do you people want? lmfao I'll post a video just to be met by even more excuses to defend your broken class
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@Lilyanna.9361 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Anet said they don't want the mesmer player having to decide between let phnatasm live or shatter. This decision gets deleted by turning phantasm into clones after the first attack already. It's not needed that phantasm don't count into the maximum 3 illusion up rule, its not necessary that thery do not get shattered as phantasms and it is not necessary that they do such insane dmg on the one attack they have (at least not in WvW/ PvP, ofc for PvE they need some more impact compared to just let 3 strong phantasms live all time and only autoattck through the content but for that we get PvP/WvW skill split or not?).

I said it already, i think the phantasm rule should get changed back for PvP and WvW, they should count to the maximum limit of 3 again and they should get shattered even before the one attack is finished, so the mesmer has to look for his phantasm, if he want him to finish the first attack before shatter. Shattermesm had to look for this since game release. More than 3 illusions up is also just too much screen clutter.

Also some phantasm doing too much dmg, a higher cd is good but not enough, when you have phantasm hit with 8k+ the mesmer don't need them a second time in a fight to win. A shattermesmer never let the phantasm live longer than one attack since game release so there is no reason to give them such insane dmg only because they become clones after first attack (what is a buff for shattermes already). An npc carried build that just can brainless spam high dmg phantasm is noting you want in PvP/WvW, no one liked necro minion master nec or turret engi because it carries low skill by npcs.

For the next balance patch in PvP/ WvW i would like to see a dmg reduction on staff, sword offhand and utility phantasms (maybe even pistol) in additon to the higher cd and that phantasm count into the maximum 3 rule again and get shattered also as long as they are phantasms already.

I'm gonna stop you right there.And no I'm not a mesmer main, so I'm going to silence that argument before it even begins.

Mesmer staff- Has no damage attached to it. All it has a little condi that can easily be negated. It is a utility weapon that can give the mesmer an escape, a Phantasm, and occasional boons.

Mesmer sword- Honestly why nerf the damage. It's purely a DPS option that gives you one unreliable block and a phantasm. If you want to go balls to the wall, go for it. But it doesn't up your survivability. Currently, it's doing it's job and its fine.

Pistol- Who..brings pistol? I guess if you want extra CC and Condi? But shield does pistol's job better, while the damage is average at best.

I'm honestly surprised you didn't mention torch or focus LOL.

Though I will agree that the utility phantasms are doing too much spike damage for their own good. A shave in their numbers should suffice, but I understand they wanted to compensate somewhere.

Read correct i say the phantasm of these weapons not other skills of these weapons should get nerved in dmg. The 2 spawning staff phantasm do insane dmg, so does sword offhand phantasm. I didnt know how they buffed pistol phantasm, because as you say, no one use it until now ( yet sword offhand is better in any way) but the phantasm itself had very high dmg already, if they buffed it and sword offhand get nerfed you maybe will see pistol in PvP when phantasmbuilds stay viable. A range phantasm hitting 10-12k (when it got buffed, what i don't know) is just annoying.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:
Yes they can spike every boon for short durations, but some will fall away/run out which is hardly permanent/indefinite.
Example - can mesmer maintain
permanent
quickness in pvp, permanent application of aegis as soon as it is removed, or hell permanent resistance?Show me permanent resistance in pvp (not wvw) for one, on a mesmer by themselves, for an extended fight (ie not a short fight over in a few seconds). Though I doubt you'll be able to because mesmer has three direct ways of accessing resistance - BD with F5 and Signet of Inspiration rng, and Temporal Enchanter - and anyone traiting glamours in pvp you can laugh at and proceed to kill.The fourth is rune of revenant for resistance on heal but this still doesn't make it 100% uptime. So I don't think you know mesmer enough to make a statement like this.
For the record I never said they can't have high uptime of a lot of boons - but you stating "have every boon permanently" is a straight exaggeration.

Here are some screenshots after a single quick rotation.

- 2 minutes of aegis
- 56 seconds of vigor
- 25 stacks of might for 28 seconds
- 2 minutes 29 seconds of fury
- 18 seconds of quickness
- 1 minute 14 seconds of swiftness
- 22 seconds of protection
- 14 seconds of resistance
- 21 seconds of alacrity (while traiting Improved Alacrity which reduces Alacrity Duration by 33%)

"Short durations" LUL"You're exaggerating" LUL

Please achieve the same result in a FIGHT, not s golem. Once you can maintain 2 minutes of aegis against a competent opponent then you’ll be doing something.

Also, I don’t see perma retaliation or resistance in those picks...
I mean, I for one am glad you can do a PvE rotation on a golem. Very proud in fact. Next do it on someone fighting back and show me the same results. And before you go mentioning some guy being top 4 NA running this build... don’t. It’s been widely acknowledged that Anet didn’t scratch the surface of wintraders when they handed out dishonor. Not saying he did, but I’m not saying he didn’t either, knowingly or not.

- 41 seconds of retaliation

Look again.

He's not a wintrader. I got the build from him after I saw him running it in the dueling servers. He had permanent every boon during those fights lol

So you say. But there’s nothing saying he didn’t benefit from that. Which is why it’s a moot point period.

And again, your definition of permanent and every are wrong. Plain and simple. You can keep posting screen shots of you standing at a golem pulling off PvE rotations all day long. But until you actually so video proof of permanent and every you’re case is moot. Golems don’t move, dodge, evade, proc passives, or attack. They are stationary targets. This is the same concept of people posting screen shots of having 40+ stacks of confusion and torment on a golem. On an actual player you will not achieve those stacks. Just like you will not achieve what you are claiming.

If it was a moot point, then why did you bring it up in the first place? You tried to counter my argument and when I proved you wrong you say "it doesn't count."

You brought it up. Multiple times. You needed a bit of clarification to understand rank means nothing when you could have been artificially helped to achieve it.

You'd still get rolled by anyone in the top 10. Saying that high ranking players mean nothing because they could have potentially been affected/contributed to wintrading is just an excuse bad players use to justify their own lack of skill.

Moving on.

And you say all this but choose to not post a video of yourself playing said build. Why is that? Because you know you can’t maintain what you claim. You’ve not proven me wrong at any time. Your claim is that it can maintain every boon permanently. It’s been point out several times that doing so on a golem is not the same as doing so in an actual match. Yet you keep posting screen shots rather than a video. Its on you to provide irrefutable evidence to hold up your claims and you can’t do it. Aegis is not, nor will it be, permanent. One hit strips it completely and then you have to attempt to get it back. Resistance and retaliation are on rng outside of f5.

I just linked screenshots of someone using the exact build I was. I haven't posted a video of myself "playing said build" because I don't have any recording software. lol

Again, in what kitten world does the word "permanent" mean:
being able to be reapplied instantly if it get removed
? The argue that "Aegis can't be permanent because 1 hit strips" it is actually so stupid. Because the counter to that extremely poor reasoning would be "Aegis is permanent because if you don't get hit it doesn't get stripped."

Show me a video of you in a match maintaining what you claim and I’ll change my tune. Until then you’ve got nothing.

You wanted me to prove it works in an actual fight. So I posted screenshots of the exact same build being used to win a duel. The proof is there.

Aww thanks for assuming my rank buddy. I dropped out of plat to play with my friends so that must absolutely mean I’m a bronze tier. Good for you for figuring that out.

Reported for match manipulation. LUL

In what world do you live in that permanent doesn’t mean well permanent. You can’t have permanent aegis. Just isn’t going to happen. It’s going to be stripped. I’m sorry if you can’t understand this but it’s going to happen. Whether it’s reapplied or not doesn’t matter. If it’s removed it’s not permanent.

Well, since your mind can't seem to wrap around this simple concept. Would the words "extremely high uptime on every boon" be better for you? :}

Recording software is free. You can actually use overwolf to record. Not the best but free so go at it!

No you showed screen shots of an unknown fight against an unknown player in a duel, not an actual match. Please try again.

I provide picture evidence. Video evidence isn't required because those screenshots obviously show a duel taking place.

If I decide to download a recording software later, I'll post a video.

Also, who the hell are you to determine who is an unknown player or not? A fight is a fight. No matter what video or picture I post, you'll just say "that doesn't count" because you're so wrong that's all you
can
say.

Sure go ahead report me.

See now we are FINALLY getting somewhere. I’m glad after all this, you’re catching on to the difference. Yes, they can have a high uptime on most boons. That is true and will receive no argument from me. Saying they have every boon permanently is a lot different.

No video is required. There’s a big difference between two equally skilled player vs one skilled player and someone new to the game. That is why a video is needed. Context is everything. A screen shot does not provide the context.

I’d tell you to see above but let me reiterate. A duel is not a duel if you don’t know how skilled a person is.There’s a difference between someone with 2k hours on a class in PvE that dabbles in PvP vs someone with 2k hours doing nothing but duels.

There’s also a difference between someone with 2k hours PvP’ing vs someone with 50 hours.

So no, a fight is not just a fight when trying to determine whether something is weak, strong, or overpowered. I’ve already said if you show me a video of two equally skilled players running this and they do a 2 out of 3 and t destroys ok I’ll talk about changing tunes. I’d prefer an actual match but at this point I won’t get either.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Anet said they don't want the mesmer player having to decide between let phnatasm live or shatter. This decision gets deleted by turning phantasm into clones after the first attack already. It's not needed that phantasm don't count into the maximum 3 illusion up rule, its not necessary that thery do not get shattered as phantasms and it is not necessary that they do such insane dmg on the one attack they have (at least not in WvW/ PvP, ofc for PvE they need some more impact compared to just let 3 strong phantasms live all time and only autoattck through the content but for that we get PvP/WvW skill split or not?).

I said it already, i think the phantasm rule should get changed back for PvP and WvW, they should count to the maximum limit of 3 again and they should get shattered even before the one attack is finished, so the mesmer has to look for his phantasm, if he want him to finish the first attack before shatter. Shattermesm had to look for this since game release. More than 3 illusions up is also just too much screen clutter.

Also some phantasm doing too much dmg, a higher cd is good but not enough, when you have phantasm hit with 8k+ the mesmer don't need them a second time in a fight to win. A shattermesmer never let the phantasm live longer than one attack since game release so there is no reason to give them such insane dmg only because they become clones after first attack (what is a buff for shattermes already). An npc carried build that just can brainless spam high dmg phantasm is noting you want in PvP/WvW, no one liked necro minion master nec or turret engi because it carries low skill by npcs.

For the next balance patch in PvP/ WvW i would like to see a dmg reduction on staff, sword offhand and utility phantasms (maybe even pistol) in additon to the higher cd and that phantasm count into the maximum 3 rule again and get shattered also as long as they are phantasms already.

I'm gonna stop you right there.And no I'm not a mesmer main, so I'm going to silence that argument before it even begins.

Mesmer staff- Has no damage attached to it. All it has a little condi that can easily be negated. It is a utility weapon that can give the mesmer an escape, a Phantasm, and occasional boons.

Mesmer sword- Honestly why nerf the damage. It's purely a DPS option that gives you one unreliable block and a phantasm. If you want to go balls to the wall, go for it. But it doesn't up your survivability. Currently, it's doing it's job and its fine.

Pistol- Who..brings pistol? I guess if you want extra CC and Condi? But shield does pistol's job better, while the damage is average at best.

I'm honestly surprised you didn't mention torch or focus LOL.

Though I will agree that the utility phantasms are doing too much spike damage for their own good. A shave in their numbers should suffice, but I understand they wanted to compensate somewhere.

Read correct i say the phantasm of these weapons not other skills of these weapons should get nerved in dmg. The 2 spawning staff phantasm do insane dmg, so does sword offhand phantasm. I didnt know how they buffed pistol phantasm, because as you say, no one use it until now ( yet sword offhand is better in any way) but the phantasm itself had very high dmg already, if they buffed it and sword offhand get nerfed you maybe will see pistol in PvP when phantasmbuilds stay viable. A range phantasm hitting 10-12k (when it got buffed, what i don't know) is just annoying.

Phantasmal Warlock: Damage (3x): 498 (0.45)?

Grabbed straight from the Guild Wars Wiki.So tell me how this is doing 10k again?Not even buffs from the traitlines could push this low number up with the phantasm on staff.

LOL.

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@Jace al Thor.6745 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:
Yes they can spike every boon for short durations, but some will fall away/run out which is hardly permanent/indefinite.
Example - can mesmer maintain
permanent
quickness in pvp, permanent application of aegis as soon as it is removed, or hell permanent resistance?Show me permanent resistance in pvp (not wvw) for one, on a mesmer by themselves, for an extended fight (ie not a short fight over in a few seconds). Though I doubt you'll be able to because mesmer has three direct ways of accessing resistance - BD with F5 and Signet of Inspiration rng, and Temporal Enchanter - and anyone traiting glamours in pvp you can laugh at and proceed to kill.The fourth is rune of revenant for resistance on heal but this still doesn't make it 100% uptime. So I don't think you know mesmer enough to make a statement like this.
For the record I never said they can't have high uptime of a lot of boons - but you stating "have every boon permanently" is a straight exaggeration.

Here are some screenshots after a single quick rotation.

- 2 minutes of aegis
- 56 seconds of vigor
- 25 stacks of might for 28 seconds
- 2 minutes 29 seconds of fury
- 18 seconds of quickness
- 1 minute 14 seconds of swiftness
- 22 seconds of protection
- 14 seconds of resistance
- 21 seconds of alacrity (while traiting Improved Alacrity which reduces Alacrity Duration by 33%)

"Short durations" LUL"You're exaggerating" LUL

Please achieve the same result in a FIGHT, not s golem. Once you can maintain 2 minutes of aegis against a competent opponent then you’ll be doing something.

Also, I don’t see perma retaliation or resistance in those picks...
I mean, I for one am glad you can do a PvE rotation on a golem. Very proud in fact. Next do it on someone fighting back and show me the same results. And before you go mentioning some guy being top 4 NA running this build... don’t. It’s been widely acknowledged that Anet didn’t scratch the surface of wintraders when they handed out dishonor. Not saying he did, but I’m not saying he didn’t either, knowingly or not.

- 41 seconds of retaliation

Look again.

He's not a wintrader. I got the build from him after I saw him running it in the dueling servers. He had permanent every boon during those fights lol

So you say. But there’s nothing saying he didn’t benefit from that. Which is why it’s a moot point period.

And again, your definition of permanent and every are wrong. Plain and simple. You can keep posting screen shots of you standing at a golem pulling off PvE rotations all day long. But until you actually so video proof of permanent and every you’re case is moot. Golems don’t move, dodge, evade, proc passives, or attack. They are stationary targets. This is the same concept of people posting screen shots of having 40+ stacks of confusion and torment on a golem. On an actual player you will not achieve those stacks. Just like you will not achieve what you are claiming.

If it was a moot point, then why did you bring it up in the first place? You tried to counter my argument and when I proved you wrong you say "it doesn't count."

You brought it up. Multiple times. You needed a bit of clarification to understand rank means nothing when you could have been artificially helped to achieve it.

You'd still get rolled by anyone in the top 10. Saying that high ranking players mean nothing because they could have potentially been affected/contributed to wintrading is just an excuse bad players use to justify their own lack of skill.

Moving on.

And you say all this but choose to not post a video of yourself playing said build. Why is that? Because you know you can’t maintain what you claim. You’ve not proven me wrong at any time. Your claim is that it can maintain every boon permanently. It’s been point out several times that doing so on a golem is not the same as doing so in an actual match. Yet you keep posting screen shots rather than a video. Its on you to provide irrefutable evidence to hold up your claims and you can’t do it. Aegis is not, nor will it be, permanent. One hit strips it completely and then you have to attempt to get it back. Resistance and retaliation are on rng outside of f5.

I just linked screenshots of someone using the exact build I was. I haven't posted a video of myself "playing said build" because I don't have any recording software. lol

Again, in what kitten world does the word "permanent" mean:
being able to be reapplied instantly if it get removed
? The argue that "Aegis can't be permanent because 1 hit strips" it is actually so stupid. Because the counter to that extremely poor reasoning would be "Aegis is permanent because if you don't get hit it doesn't get stripped."

Show me a video of you in a match maintaining what you claim and I’ll change my tune. Until then you’ve got nothing.

You wanted me to prove it works in an actual fight. So I posted screenshots of the exact same build being used to win a duel. The proof is there.

Aww thanks for assuming my rank buddy. I dropped out of plat to play with my friends so that must absolutely mean I’m a bronze tier. Good for you for figuring that out.

Reported for match manipulation. LUL

In what world do you live in that permanent doesn’t mean well permanent. You can’t have permanent aegis. Just isn’t going to happen. It’s going to be stripped. I’m sorry if you can’t understand this but it’s going to happen. Whether it’s reapplied or not doesn’t matter. If it’s removed it’s not permanent.

Well, since your mind can't seem to wrap around this simple concept. Would the words "extremely high uptime on every boon" be better for you? :}

Recording software is free. You can actually use overwolf to record. Not the best but free so go at it!

No you showed screen shots of an unknown fight against an unknown player in a duel, not an actual match. Please try again.

I provide picture evidence. Video evidence isn't required because those screenshots obviously show a duel taking place.

If I decide to download a recording software later, I'll post a video.

Also, who the hell are you to determine who is an unknown player or not? A fight is a fight. No matter what video or picture I post, you'll just say "that doesn't count" because you're so wrong that's all you
can
say.

Sure go ahead report me.

See now we are FINALLY getting somewhere. I’m glad after all this, you’re catching on to the difference. Yes, they can have a high uptime on most boons. That is true and will receive no argument from me. Saying they have every boon permanently is a lot different.

No video is required. There’s a big difference between two equally skilled player vs one skilled player and someone new to the game. That is why a video is needed. Context is everything. A screen shot does not provide the context.

I’d tell you to see above but let me reiterate. A duel is not a duel if you don’t know how skilled a person is.There’s a difference between someone with 2k hours on a class in PvE that dabbles in PvP vs someone with 2k hours doing nothing but duels.

There’s also a difference between someone with 2k hours PvP’ing vs someone with 50 hours.

So no, a fight is not just a fight when trying to determine whether something is weak, strong, or overpowered. I’ve already said if you show me a video of two equally skilled players running this and they do a 2 out of 3 and t destroys ok I’ll talk about changing tunes. I’d prefer an actual match but at this point I won’t get either.

I have sub-60 hours on mesmer and yet I can still compete in Plat 3 with this build.

I'm not a mesmer main, so, if you want a video between 2 equally (high) skilled players, go find some and ask them yourself. I think 2 high tier mesmer players would be perfectly happy to oblige to a person randomly whispering them to record some duels. :]

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@Lilyanna.9361 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Anet said they don't want the mesmer player having to decide between let phnatasm live or shatter. This decision gets deleted by turning phantasm into clones after the first attack already. It's not needed that phantasm don't count into the maximum 3 illusion up rule, its not necessary that thery do not get shattered as phantasms and it is not necessary that they do such insane dmg on the one attack they have (at least not in WvW/ PvP, ofc for PvE they need some more impact compared to just let 3 strong phantasms live all time and only autoattck through the content but for that we get PvP/WvW skill split or not?).

I said it already, i think the phantasm rule should get changed back for PvP and WvW, they should count to the maximum limit of 3 again and they should get shattered even before the one attack is finished, so the mesmer has to look for his phantasm, if he want him to finish the first attack before shatter. Shattermesm had to look for this since game release. More than 3 illusions up is also just too much screen clutter.

Also some phantasm doing too much dmg, a higher cd is good but not enough, when you have phantasm hit with 8k+ the mesmer don't need them a second time in a fight to win. A shattermesmer never let the phantasm live longer than one attack since game release so there is no reason to give them such insane dmg only because they become clones after first attack (what is a buff for shattermes already). An npc carried build that just can brainless spam high dmg phantasm is noting you want in PvP/WvW, no one liked necro minion master nec or turret engi because it carries low skill by npcs.

For the next balance patch in PvP/ WvW i would like to see a dmg reduction on staff, sword offhand and utility phantasms (maybe even pistol) in additon to the higher cd and that phantasm count into the maximum 3 rule again and get shattered also as long as they are phantasms already.

I'm gonna stop you right there.And no I'm not a mesmer main, so I'm going to silence that argument before it even begins.

Mesmer staff- Has no damage attached to it. All it has a little condi that can easily be negated. It is a utility weapon that can give the mesmer an escape, a Phantasm, and occasional boons.

Mesmer sword- Honestly why nerf the damage. It's purely a DPS option that gives you one unreliable block and a phantasm. If you want to go balls to the wall, go for it. But it doesn't up your survivability. Currently, it's doing it's job and its fine.

Pistol- Who..brings pistol? I guess if you want extra CC and Condi? But shield does pistol's job better, while the damage is average at best.

I'm honestly surprised you didn't mention torch or focus LOL.

Though I will agree that the utility phantasms are doing too much spike damage for their own good. A shave in their numbers should suffice, but I understand they wanted to compensate somewhere.

Read correct i say the phantasm of these weapons not other skills of these weapons should get nerved in dmg. The 2 spawning staff phantasm do insane dmg, so does sword offhand phantasm. I didnt know how they buffed pistol phantasm, because as you say, no one use it until now ( yet sword offhand is better in any way) but the phantasm itself had very high dmg already, if they buffed it and sword offhand get nerfed you maybe will see pistol in PvP when phantasmbuilds stay viable. A range phantasm hitting 10-12k (when it got buffed, what i don't know) is just annoying.

Phantasmal Warlock: Damage (3x): 498 (0.45)?

Grabbed straight from the Guild Wars Wiki.So tell me how this is doing 10k again?Not even buffs from the traitlines could push this low number up with the phantasm on staff.

LOL.

It does, thats all i know from ingame experience

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@bravan.3876 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Anet said they don't want the mesmer player having to decide between let phnatasm live or shatter. This decision gets deleted by turning phantasm into clones after the first attack already. It's not needed that phantasm don't count into the maximum 3 illusion up rule, its not necessary that thery do not get shattered as phantasms and it is not necessary that they do such insane dmg on the one attack they have (at least not in WvW/ PvP, ofc for PvE they need some more impact compared to just let 3 strong phantasms live all time and only autoattck through the content but for that we get PvP/WvW skill split or not?).

I said it already, i think the phantasm rule should get changed back for PvP and WvW, they should count to the maximum limit of 3 again and they should get shattered even before the one attack is finished, so the mesmer has to look for his phantasm, if he want him to finish the first attack before shatter. Shattermesm had to look for this since game release. More than 3 illusions up is also just too much screen clutter.

Also some phantasm doing too much dmg, a higher cd is good but not enough, when you have phantasm hit with 8k+ the mesmer don't need them a second time in a fight to win. A shattermesmer never let the phantasm live longer than one attack since game release so there is no reason to give them such insane dmg only because they become clones after first attack (what is a buff for shattermes already). An npc carried build that just can brainless spam high dmg phantasm is noting you want in PvP/WvW, no one liked necro minion master nec or turret engi because it carries low skill by npcs.

For the next balance patch in PvP/ WvW i would like to see a dmg reduction on staff, sword offhand and utility phantasms (maybe even pistol) in additon to the higher cd and that phantasm count into the maximum 3 rule again and get shattered also as long as they are phantasms already.

I'm gonna stop you right there.And no I'm not a mesmer main, so I'm going to silence that argument before it even begins.

Mesmer staff- Has no damage attached to it. All it has a little condi that can easily be negated. It is a utility weapon that can give the mesmer an escape, a Phantasm, and occasional boons.

Mesmer sword- Honestly why nerf the damage. It's purely a DPS option that gives you one unreliable block and a phantasm. If you want to go balls to the wall, go for it. But it doesn't up your survivability. Currently, it's doing it's job and its fine.

Pistol- Who..brings pistol? I guess if you want extra CC and Condi? But shield does pistol's job better, while the damage is average at best.

I'm honestly surprised you didn't mention torch or focus LOL.

Though I will agree that the utility phantasms are doing too much spike damage for their own good. A shave in their numbers should suffice, but I understand they wanted to compensate somewhere.

Read correct i say the phantasm of these weapons not other skills of these weapons should get nerved in dmg. The 2 spawning staff phantasm do insane dmg, so does sword offhand phantasm. I didnt know how they buffed pistol phantasm, because as you say, no one use it until now ( yet sword offhand is better in any way) but the phantasm itself had very high dmg already, if they buffed it and sword offhand get nerfed you maybe will see pistol in PvP when phantasmbuilds stay viable. A range phantasm hitting 10-12k (when it got buffed, what i don't know) is just annoying.

Phantasmal Warlock: Damage (3x): 498 (0.45)?

Grabbed straight from the Guild Wars Wiki.So tell me how this is doing 10k again?Not even buffs from the traitlines could push this low number up with the phantasm on staff.

LOL.

It does, thats all i know from ingame experience

Then post it on here, from your combat log, because I promise you, that 10k is not coming from Warlock.

I /have/ many, many mesmer friends that play and when they show me their screens, the 10k is never from Warlock damage by itself. Usually it's either from sword or greatsword, because very little mirages run staff with the actual good build.

You getting tromped by the meme builds.

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@Lilyanna.9361 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Anet said they don't want the mesmer player having to decide between let phnatasm live or shatter. This decision gets deleted by turning phantasm into clones after the first attack already. It's not needed that phantasm don't count into the maximum 3 illusion up rule, its not necessary that thery do not get shattered as phantasms and it is not necessary that they do such insane dmg on the one attack they have (at least not in WvW/ PvP, ofc for PvE they need some more impact compared to just let 3 strong phantasms live all time and only autoattck through the content but for that we get PvP/WvW skill split or not?).

I said it already, i think the phantasm rule should get changed back for PvP and WvW, they should count to the maximum limit of 3 again and they should get shattered even before the one attack is finished, so the mesmer has to look for his phantasm, if he want him to finish the first attack before shatter. Shattermesm had to look for this since game release. More than 3 illusions up is also just too much screen clutter.

Also some phantasm doing too much dmg, a higher cd is good but not enough, when you have phantasm hit with 8k+ the mesmer don't need them a second time in a fight to win. A shattermesmer never let the phantasm live longer than one attack since game release so there is no reason to give them such insane dmg only because they become clones after first attack (what is a buff for shattermes already). An npc carried build that just can brainless spam high dmg phantasm is noting you want in PvP/WvW, no one liked necro minion master nec or turret engi because it carries low skill by npcs.

For the next balance patch in PvP/ WvW i would like to see a dmg reduction on staff, sword offhand and utility phantasms (maybe even pistol) in additon to the higher cd and that phantasm count into the maximum 3 rule again and get shattered also as long as they are phantasms already.

I'm gonna stop you right there.And no I'm not a mesmer main, so I'm going to silence that argument before it even begins.

Mesmer staff- Has no damage attached to it. All it has a little condi that can easily be negated. It is a utility weapon that can give the mesmer an escape, a Phantasm, and occasional boons.

Mesmer sword- Honestly why nerf the damage. It's purely a DPS option that gives you one unreliable block and a phantasm. If you want to go balls to the wall, go for it. But it doesn't up your survivability. Currently, it's doing it's job and its fine.

Pistol- Who..brings pistol? I guess if you want extra CC and Condi? But shield does pistol's job better, while the damage is average at best.

I'm honestly surprised you didn't mention torch or focus LOL.

Though I will agree that the utility phantasms are doing too much spike damage for their own good. A shave in their numbers should suffice, but I understand they wanted to compensate somewhere.

Read correct i say the phantasm of these weapons not other skills of these weapons should get nerved in dmg. The 2 spawning staff phantasm do insane dmg, so does sword offhand phantasm. I didnt know how they buffed pistol phantasm, because as you say, no one use it until now ( yet sword offhand is better in any way) but the phantasm itself had very high dmg already, if they buffed it and sword offhand get nerfed you maybe will see pistol in PvP when phantasmbuilds stay viable. A range phantasm hitting 10-12k (when it got buffed, what i don't know) is just annoying.

Phantasmal Warlock: Damage (3x): 498 (0.45)?

Grabbed straight from the Guild Wars Wiki.So tell me how this is doing 10k again?Not even buffs from the traitlines could push this low number up with the phantasm on staff.

LOL.

It does, thats all i know from ingame experience

Then post it on here, from your combat log, because I promise you, that 10k is not coming from Warlock.

I /have/ many, many mesmer friends that play and when they show me their screens, the 10k is never from Warlock damage by itself. Usually it's either from sword or greatsword, because very little mirages run staff with the actual good build.

You getting tromped by the meme builds.

I have not saved any pic until now, when i play again i try to rememebr to make a pic from my combat log. the dmg is not from one of the phantasms it is ofc from both together beaming at you. but staff sw/sw disenchanter is not a meme build it is a metabuild lel

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@bravan.3876 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Anet said they don't want the mesmer player having to decide between let phnatasm live or shatter. This decision gets deleted by turning phantasm into clones after the first attack already. It's not needed that phantasm don't count into the maximum 3 illusion up rule, its not necessary that thery do not get shattered as phantasms and it is not necessary that they do such insane dmg on the one attack they have (at least not in WvW/ PvP, ofc for PvE they need some more impact compared to just let 3 strong phantasms live all time and only autoattck through the content but for that we get PvP/WvW skill split or not?).

I said it already, i think the phantasm rule should get changed back for PvP and WvW, they should count to the maximum limit of 3 again and they should get shattered even before the one attack is finished, so the mesmer has to look for his phantasm, if he want him to finish the first attack before shatter. Shattermesm had to look for this since game release. More than 3 illusions up is also just too much screen clutter.

Also some phantasm doing too much dmg, a higher cd is good but not enough, when you have phantasm hit with 8k+ the mesmer don't need them a second time in a fight to win. A shattermesmer never let the phantasm live longer than one attack since game release so there is no reason to give them such insane dmg only because they become clones after first attack (what is a buff for shattermes already). An npc carried build that just can brainless spam high dmg phantasm is noting you want in PvP/WvW, no one liked necro minion master nec or turret engi because it carries low skill by npcs.

For the next balance patch in PvP/ WvW i would like to see a dmg reduction on staff, sword offhand and utility phantasms (maybe even pistol) in additon to the higher cd and that phantasm count into the maximum 3 rule again and get shattered also as long as they are phantasms already.

I'm gonna stop you right there.And no I'm not a mesmer main, so I'm going to silence that argument before it even begins.

Mesmer staff- Has no damage attached to it. All it has a little condi that can easily be negated. It is a utility weapon that can give the mesmer an escape, a Phantasm, and occasional boons.

Mesmer sword- Honestly why nerf the damage. It's purely a DPS option that gives you one unreliable block and a phantasm. If you want to go balls to the wall, go for it. But it doesn't up your survivability. Currently, it's doing it's job and its fine.

Pistol- Who..brings pistol? I guess if you want extra CC and Condi? But shield does pistol's job better, while the damage is average at best.

I'm honestly surprised you didn't mention torch or focus LOL.

Though I will agree that the utility phantasms are doing too much spike damage for their own good. A shave in their numbers should suffice, but I understand they wanted to compensate somewhere.

Read correct i say the phantasm of these weapons not other skills of these weapons should get nerved in dmg. The 2 spawning staff phantasm do insane dmg, so does sword offhand phantasm. I didnt know how they buffed pistol phantasm, because as you say, no one use it until now ( yet sword offhand is better in any way) but the phantasm itself had very high dmg already, if they buffed it and sword offhand get nerfed you maybe will see pistol in PvP when phantasmbuilds stay viable. A range phantasm hitting 10-12k (when it got buffed, what i don't know) is just annoying.

Phantasmal Warlock: Damage (3x): 498 (0.45)?

Grabbed straight from the Guild Wars Wiki.So tell me how this is doing 10k again?Not even buffs from the traitlines could push this low number up with the phantasm on staff.

LOL.

It does, thats all i know from ingame experience

Then post it on here, from your combat log, because I promise you, that 10k is not coming from Warlock.

I /have/ many, many mesmer friends that play and when they show me their screens, the 10k is never from Warlock damage by itself. Usually it's either from sword or greatsword, because very little mirages run staff with the actual good build.

You getting tromped by the meme builds.

I have not saved any pic until now, when i play again i try to rememebr to make a pic from my combat log. the dmg is not from one of the phantasms it is ofc from both together beaming at you. but staff sw/sw disenchanter is not a meme build it is a metabuild lel

Sword/Torch with Greatsword is what everyone and their mum runs. Seriously, every match that I've ever been in, I have not seen one mesmer not run the cuck-worthy greatsword build. It's overall stronger tbh and you get your burst faster. Staff one is if you want to basically not use stealth, by why not use stealth since it's basically freelo.

And warlock, together, even with the beams still does not hit to 10k. Even in an actual fight, you could probably juice 4-5k? Maybe six or seven if you crit? Now 10k I expect on the swords because those are clearly dps power weapons. Staff? Pfft, not really

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@"shadowpass.4236" said:"The boons are short duration"

  • I post screenshots of extremely long duration boons

"This build doesn't work in an actual fight"

  • I post screenshots of this exact build winning a duel and some of the boon durations

"Those players are unknown"

  • What more do you people want? lmfao I'll post a video just to be met by even more excuses to defend your broken class

And that final thing is the whole point.

You seem to think that despite everything I and others have typed in this thread that we defend broken mechanics? I don't know if you've forgotten the whole discussion (or maybe just not reading my "badly formatted" posts that contain the relevant information) or seem to want to continue projecting from your own anti-mesmer bias but let me get this clear - we do NOT. We are self critical enough to attempt to accurately if not always correctly point out what needs to be balanced for the sake of the game. Go and read those posts or just take my word for it.

Regardless of the boon situation which in hindsight digressed from the point entirely (and for the record any competent aggressive shatter mirage, power or hybrid that focuses the mesmer hard can beat - I know because of running into a fair share of boon spamming mesmers while roaming in wvw who fold once you avoid their phantasms and focus them hard. edit - yes it's not as common there compared with other builds, but you do find the odd few) your initial post regarding the phantasm rework was off the mark, containing points not unique to mesmer (ie unbalanced damage output and survival), and not seeing the difference between a crucial fundamental mechanic change and subsequent balance.

Bottom line is the phantasm mechanic was a good change for the functionality of the class. Subsequent balance can and will be iterated towards to bring things back in line. Reverting the phantasm change serves absolutely no purpose.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Anet said they don't want the mesmer player having to decide between let phnatasm live or shatter. This decision gets deleted by turning phantasm into clones after the first attack already. It's not needed that phantasm don't count into the maximum 3 illusion up rule, its not necessary that thery do not get shattered as phantasms and it is not necessary that they do such insane dmg on the one attack they have (at least not in WvW/ PvP, ofc for PvE they need some more impact compared to just let 3 strong phantasms live all time and only autoattck through the content but for that we get PvP/WvW skill split or not?).

I said it already, i think the phantasm rule should get changed back for PvP and WvW, they should count to the maximum limit of 3 again and they should get shattered even before the one attack is finished, so the mesmer has to look for his phantasm, if he want him to finish the first attack before shatter. Shattermesm had to look for this since game release. More than 3 illusions up is also just too much screen clutter.

Also some phantasm doing too much dmg, a higher cd is good but not enough, when you have phantasm hit with 8k+ the mesmer don't need them a second time in a fight to win. A shattermesmer never let the phantasm live longer than one attack since game release so there is no reason to give them such insane dmg only because they become clones after first attack (what is a buff for shattermes already). An npc carried build that just can brainless spam high dmg phantasm is noting you want in PvP/WvW, no one liked necro minion master nec or turret engi because it carries low skill by npcs.

For the next balance patch in PvP/ WvW i would like to see a dmg reduction on staff, sword offhand and utility phantasms (maybe even pistol) in additon to the higher cd and that phantasm count into the maximum 3 rule again and get shattered also as long as they are phantasms already.

I'm gonna stop you right there.And no I'm not a mesmer main, so I'm going to silence that argument before it even begins.

Mesmer staff- Has no damage attached to it. All it has a little condi that can easily be negated. It is a utility weapon that can give the mesmer an escape, a Phantasm, and occasional boons.

Mesmer sword- Honestly why nerf the damage. It's purely a DPS option that gives you one unreliable block and a phantasm. If you want to go balls to the wall, go for it. But it doesn't up your survivability. Currently, it's doing it's job and its fine.

Pistol- Who..brings pistol? I guess if you want extra CC and Condi? But shield does pistol's job better, while the damage is average at best.

I'm honestly surprised you didn't mention torch or focus LOL.

Though I will agree that the utility phantasms are doing too much spike damage for their own good. A shave in their numbers should suffice, but I understand they wanted to compensate somewhere.

Read correct i say the phantasm of these weapons not other skills of these weapons should get nerved in dmg. The 2 spawning staff phantasm do insane dmg, so does sword offhand phantasm. I didnt know how they buffed pistol phantasm, because as you say, no one use it until now ( yet sword offhand is better in any way) but the phantasm itself had very high dmg already, if they buffed it and sword offhand get nerfed you maybe will see pistol in PvP when phantasmbuilds stay viable. A range phantasm hitting 10-12k (when it got buffed, what i don't know) is just annoying.

Phantasmal Warlock: Damage (3x): 498 (0.45)?

Grabbed straight from the Guild Wars Wiki.So tell me how this is doing 10k again?Not even buffs from the traitlines could push this low number up with the phantasm on staff.

LOL.

It does, thats all i know from ingame experience

Wait ,did you just complaint about iWarlocks? Just brought mesmer on golem ,got 25 might ,they barely did 4k summarized damage, sword phantasms hitting with might indeed like 8-10k damage but its melee and stationary 1 dodge or running in 1 direction and you take no damage except for first leap, torch phantasm stare into your soul and only then lazily attack , focus is just... after their rework even in pve he looks pale + removed immob on cast,feelsbad . Btw may be aneD can rework gs3,gs5 (mind stab and wave) or give this skills some love because Its hurt my eyes how bad those skills xDI even doubt this super broken mesmer would suvive 1x2's even ,all it has 2 phantasms as utility skills ....

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