Full Counter

[BurrTheKing.8571]

@Arcaedus.7290 said:In ways of a nerf, would anyone be horribly opposed to the cd of Full Counter going up to around 10-15s? After fighting some spellbreakers, I think this is all that would be necessary if anything at all.

The problem with that is it would mess with the interaction between traits like Berserker's Power and Adrenal Health. The idea is to get 2 bars, Burst, Full Counter, Then burst again to get all 3 stacks. Make the CD too long and getting 3 stacks becomes hard if not impossible. Ten seconds might be acceptable, but as others said if you're spamming it on CD you might trigger it, but that doesn't mean it'll connect. It's very easy to trigger it then avoid.

The reason for the Stability is probably because it would be stupidly easy to trigger it then use a quick CC to instantly stop the attack from landing. Not to mention that mid fights are so chaotic that the attack would probably never land without it. Revenge Counter is practically a must to avoid it getting blinded constantly.

Spellbreaker seems rather healthy for the game. I know I'm biased but look at it this way, it's so focused on countering specific mechanics no matter what powercreep that gets introduced Spellbreaker should be able to minimize its effectiveness. Does a build that's super boon heavy become OP? Top line of traits. Condis out of control? Revenge Counter with Berserker's Stance and Featherfoot Grace (still vulnerable to boon stealing/corruption). Is the enemy super mobile? There's Magebane Tether and all the mobility hampering traits.

It can't counter everything at once however, and it's possible to be in a situation where your build isn't that useful against your enemy. Seems like a well thought out Spec from Robert.

[Aeolus.3615]

12second would be good not more, for the 8sec CD the damage multiplier need to be toned down or daze removed.

(im having problems noticing the animation on targets, while i can see the animation on friendly targets)

[Kuya.6495]

I have noticed that spellbreaker is incredibly durable having the ability to handle take up to two people ot once. They aren't necessarily a big dps threats though.

[Loop.8106]

@BurrTheKing.8571 said:

@Arcaedus.7290 said:Spellbreaker seems rather healthy for the game. I know I'm biased but look at it this way, it's so focused on countering specific mechanics

no matter what powercreep that gets introduced Spellbreaker should be able to minimize its effectiveness.

Does a build that's super boon heavy become OP? Top line of traits. Condis out of control? Revenge Counter with Berserker's Stance and Featherfoot Grace (still vulnerable to boon stealing/corruption). Is the enemy super mobile? There's Magebane Tether and all the mobility hampering traits.

It can't counter everything at once however, and it's possible to be in a situation where your build isn't that useful against your enemy. Seems like a well thought out Spec from Robert.

You dont see a problem with this? Of course I'm biased too as everything they introduce nowadays is unblockable and the one defense guards rely on are blocks. IE; Full Counter, and Break Enchantments being the biggest offenders. It makes it so mindless.Many of the warriors that posted on this thread pointed out that Full Counter is healthy for the game because it promotes a gamestyle that's not "12345 spamming", but that's contradictory considering Warriors dont have to pay attention to Aegis / F3 blocks. I would be all for halving ALL the blocks in the game, but removing unblockable. Even remove the passive aegis from guards f3 in order for thieves to be able to do their initial burst.

That being said, I do sincerelly think that the spellbreaker is a fun concept of a class. Although the class is overtuned at its current implementations.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

@Loop.8106 said:

@nicknamenick.2437 said:Dont hit it?

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Stop spamming your skillbar like a rabid monkey. Stop being bad. Thank god the game finally has an ability that punishes people who 12345. May all the bads finally find out just out truly bad they are - AMEN.

It procs off of symbols. You're asking me to not sword 2 / LB 4 or finish hammer auto chain for the chance that the warrior might have the 8 second cooldown instant activation counter attack that grants 100% damage reduction + evade frames and hits about as hard as a tier 2 evis?

It does not only proc on symbols, it procs on DH f1 tether, wells, kitten, pets, minions, Ele overloads. So if you think there is any

counterplay

to the skill now, you're the the one that's bad.

I counter warriors by predicting their full counter all the time. Good players do the same to me when I am playing warrior. It's actually quite amazing how full counter is effective as a sort of instant bad-player test. If you are playing a spellbreaker you can instantly tell who is gold or higher because they count to 8.

DH mains ( The king class of mindless spam ) are just mad that their crutch-class has a counter to it.

[Erzian.5218]

If you count to 8, you are going to get hit by full counter. If you are going to trash talk people, at least get your facts straight.

[Zeghart.9841]

You dont see a problem with this? Of course I'm biased too as everything they introduce nowadays is unblockable and the one defense guards rely on are blocks. IE; Full Counter, and Break Enchantments being the biggest offenders. It makes it so mindless.Many of the warriors that posted on this thread pointed out that Full Counter is healthy for the game because it promotes a gamestyle that's not "12345 spamming", but that's contradictory considering Warriors dont have to pay attention to Aegis / F3 blocks.

Huh, yes they do. They've always had to. Because most all Warrior bursts (aside from the new one) are not unblockable, and landing bursts is what keeps Core Warriors and Berserkers alive. Only now the class is getting some much needed respite from all the blind/block spam it was forced to deal with for years.

I do find it quite ironic how so many Guardian players who have access to insane amounts of blocks are complaining that Warriors are getting one as well.

Spellbreaker is supposed to be the anti-bullcrap specialization. Seems like it's working fine so far.

[Arcaedus.7290]

I think one, some or all of the following nerfs would tone down Full Counter adequately without gutting it:

• Reduce range to 240, down from 300 currently.
• Increase cooldown to 10s, up from 8s currently (or nerf its current damage by 5-12%).
• Make the counter portion blockable.

All of these cries for making warrior take damage on FC, or not letting it be capable of absorbing an unblockable strike are nonsense. It only needs minor numerical nerfs, its current range of functions is fine.

[Kuya.6495]

as a guardian main, i too also find it amusing that it's mostly guardians getting triggered by full counter.

guess that double guardian queue is gonna come to an end real soooooon

[Savvy.3258]

@Zeghart.9841 said:

You dont see a problem with this? Of course I'm biased too as everything they introduce nowadays is unblockable and the one defense guards rely on are blocks. IE; Full Counter, and Break Enchantments being the biggest offenders. It makes it so mindless.Many of the warriors that posted on this thread pointed out that Full Counter is healthy for the game because it promotes a gamestyle that's not "12345 spamming", but that's contradictory considering Warriors dont have to pay attention to Aegis / F3 blocks.

Warrior bursts (aside from the new one) are not unblockable, and landing bursts is what keeps Core Warriors and Berserkers alive. Only now the class is getting some much needed respite from all the blind/block spam it was forced to deal with for years.

I do find it quite ironic how so many Guardian players who have access to insane amounts of blocks are complaining that Warriors are getting one as well.

Spellbreaker is supposed to be the anti-bullcrap specialization. Seems like it's working fine so far.

Just wanna point out that as a warrior, blocks and blinds are an absolute nightmare. Reason being that you have a few hard hitting skills and if those happen to get blocked or blinded, gg. If full counter weren't unblockable, no one would play spellbreaker. Perhaps a range and damage nerf would be in order, but no more than 20%. A CD increase would gut it for the simple reason you'll be lacking in defense... perhaps this is why endure pain too such a heavy nerf? Because full counter is warrior's damage mitigation now? That make sense to anyone? Maybe.

The only people would could possibly complain about this skill being unblockable are guards, mesmers and other warriors, and I have serious doubts about the latter. So let's see, let's even it out: random aegis procs, aegis on skills, block on heal, a 5s block followed by a 3s invulnerability followed by another 5s block, add two heals to the mix and perhaps enough time to refresh the original block-heal. Sound familiar? All the while dealing massive damage. Now for chronomancer's defensives: 1.5s block followed by another 1.5s block followed, followed by 2s sword distortion, followed by say a 3s shatter distortion, followed by a triple daze, followed by dual stuns, followed by (cough op refresh elite) another distortion, another triple daze, another sword distortion maybe, etc., all the while pestering condis non-stop, blinding your foes with UI clutter and hoping all around the place.

Seriously? And you people complain about full counter?Like those two don't have too many defensives?

[Zeghart.9841]

@Arcaedus.7290 said:I think one, some or all of the following nerfs would tone down Full Counter adequately without gutting it:

• Reduce range to 240, down from 300 currently.
• Increase cooldown to 10s, up from 8s currently (or nerf its current damage by 5-12%).
• Make the counter portion blockable.

• I'd argue against a range nerf. 300 is eviscerate range, it's already close enough that you pretty much have to be in melee range to be hit. Add to that the fact that Warriors can't use skills to stick to a target while full countering, and people could literally just walk out of FC despite being in melee range.
• I guess that could happen? But I really don't see how 2s extra CD or 5-10% less damage would make people stop complaining. It kinda feels like a nerf just for the sake of it.
• Again, I'd argue against that. If it was blockable, no Guardian would ever get hit by full counter. The delay between full counter blocking the attack and the counterdamage being applied is big enough to dodge, OR press F3 and take zero damage OR use any other block. Guardians would pretty much always have at least one option up. Not to mention that blocking the block seems pretty counterintuitive.

Honestly, a simple dodge or any evade skill is enough to avoid Full Counter (which only triggers if you attack into it in the first place) and the skill on its own doesn't really hit that hard to begin with. I really don't feel like more counterplays are so necessary.

@Savvy.3258 said:Seriously? And you people complain about full counter?Like those two don't have too many defensives?

Don't you know? Warriors aren't allowed active defenses. :P Their job is to stand there, get light cc'd forever and take damage.

[Loop.8106]

@Zeghart.9841 said:

You dont see a problem with this? Of course I'm biased too as everything they introduce nowadays is unblockable and the one defense guards rely on are blocks. IE; Full Counter, and Break Enchantments being the biggest offenders. It makes it so mindless.Many of the warriors that posted on this thread pointed out that Full Counter is healthy for the game because it promotes a gamestyle that's not "12345 spamming", but that's contradictory considering Warriors dont have to pay attention to Aegis / F3 blocks.

Huh, yes they do. They've always had to. Because

most

all Warrior bursts (aside from the new one) are not unblockable, and landing bursts is what keeps Core Warriors and Berserkers alive. Only now the class is getting some much needed respite from all the blind/block spam it was forced to deal with for years.

I do find it quite ironic how so many Guardian players who have access to insane amounts of blocks are complaining that Warriors are getting one as well.

Spellbreaker is supposed to be the anti-bullcrap specialization. Seems like it's working fine so far.

Yes, they have been blockable. Which is why warriors and berserkers ran Signet of Might (sometimes even double with the trait). This gave you the unblockables that you needed, to a cost of utility slot and or trait.

I do find it quite ironic how so many Guardian players who have access to insane amounts of blocks are complaining that Warriors are getting one as well.I do not complain that you're getting a block, I'm complaining about the sheer amount of unblockables the warrior class has access to. Full Counter, Break Enchantments, Reckless Dodge, Breaching Strike. This is on the "meta" build that's plauging ranked queues atm.@Savvy.3258 said:

@Zeghart.9841 said:

You dont see a problem with this? Of course I'm biased too as everything they introduce nowadays is unblockable and the one defense guards rely on are blocks. IE; Full Counter, and Break Enchantments being the biggest offenders. It makes it so mindless.Many of the warriors that posted on this thread pointed out that Full Counter is healthy for the game because it promotes a gamestyle that's not "12345 spamming", but that's contradictory considering Warriors dont have to pay attention to Aegis / F3 blocks.

Warrior bursts (aside from the new one) are not unblockable, and landing bursts is what keeps Core Warriors and Berserkers alive. Only now the class is getting some much needed respite from all the blind/block spam it was forced to deal with for years.

I do find it quite ironic how so many Guardian players who have access to insane amounts of blocks are complaining that Warriors are getting one as well.

Spellbreaker is supposed to be the anti-bullcrap specialization. Seems like it's working fine so far.

The only people would could possibly complain about this skill being unblockable are guards, mesmers and other warriors, and I have serious doubts about the latter. So let's see, let's even it out: random aegis procs, aegis on skills, block on heal, a 5s block followed by a 3s invulnerability followed by another 5s block, add two heals to the mix and perhaps enough time to refresh the original block-heal. Sound familiar? All the while dealing massive damage.

The "random aegis procs" that you mention is either; passive aegis on un-used f3 which refreshes every 30 seconds or is applied via Shield 4. Blocks on heal, no one has been using Shelter since HoT came out. 5 Second block, I'm gonna assume you're talking about F3 on Dragonhunter, this means you have to trait it (up from 3 seconds) but that means losing stunbreak trait. (again, which is a must-have trait).

So our f3 has the same amount of blocking duration as warrior shield 5 only it has 3 times the cooldown and only blocks frontal attacks.Either way, the amount of unblockables dont really take these skills into consideration, do they?

I've been spending the last hour and a half dueling Spellbreakers and this is what the death breakdown usually looks like.

https://imgur.com/a/zuhBD

[shadowpass.4236]

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:This skill is very strong. You are acting like we are bad because we can't stop attacking every 8 seconds when it comes off of cooldown. That's not the problem.

Good spellbreakers reserve Full Counter for when they

know

its going to hit. This is why good ones shine over the bad ones. They almost

always

hit Full Counter. It's essentially an instant cast block that does a high amount of damage coupled with an interrupt that applies cripple, slow, and immobilize and makes the warrior immune to conditions on an 8 second cooldown. It is the single most overtuned skill in the game right now.

I'm not saying its overpowered, but it reminds me of Steal on steroids. And Steal has already had its fair share of complaints.

Cripple/slow/immobilize are Other traits needing to be selected to work with counter,dont act like its already slapped on there baseline.

How can you even say THIS - " It is the single most overtuned skill in the game right now."

And then end it with - "I'm not saying its overpowered" .....

Something can be overtuned without being overpowered. There aren't any overpowered abilities in the game, just overtuned ones. Builds that are extremely low risk/low skill cap yet still highly effective could be considered overpowered. Ie) condi evade spam thief, ventari rev

Everything else more or less requires decent mechanical knowledge to play. Full Counter can be spammed, or it can be held on to. Regardless, it is highly effective for only having an 8 second cooldown. In other words, it does too much with just 1 button.

[Zeghart.9841]

@Loop.8106 said:Yes, they have been blockable. Which is why warriors and berserkers ran Signet of Might (sometimes even double with the trait). This gave you the unblockables that you needed, to a cost of utility slot and or trait.

The utility slot is a big cost for a Warrior, since without stances they're pretty much dead. Not to mention that the trait is in the Arms traitline, which in PvP is underused at best for many reasons.

So yeah, no matter which way you look at it, it's real bad. And all to get access to basic survival stuff like Adrenal Health or Cleansing Ire.

I do not complain that you're getting a block, I'm complaining about the sheer amount of unblockables the warrior class has access to. Full Counter, Break Enchantments, Reckless Dodge, Breaching Strike. This is on the "meta" build that's plauging ranked queues atm.

Two bursts that use the same resource, a (arguably currently not that great) utility and an attack roll, all of which can still be dodged. Not exactly amazing stuff. Especially when there are still plenty of evades and blocks to deal with most of the rest. Are those really what's killing you?

I've been spending the last hour and a half dueling Spellbreakers and this is what the death breakdown usually looks like./home/leaving?target=https%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fa%2FzuhBD" class="Popup

You got hit by Reckless Dodge seven times? To be fair that really doesn't have much to do with Spellbreaker, I'm afraid.

Don't get me wrong, I realize SB is very solid atm, especially since the xpac just released and people need to get experience against it. But Full Counter remains a completely avoidable skill both before and after being popped, doesn't hit too hard, and is crucial for actually getting through the block spam that would normally hard counter a Warrior, while also giving the class more build flexibility.

The spec in general trades a ton of offense for better reliability and defense. Make it less effective, and suddenly the entirety of it becomes pointless.

@shadowpass.4236 said:Full Counter can be spammed, or it can be held on to. Regardless, it is highly effective for only having an 8 second cooldown. In other words, it does too much with just 1 button.

The thing is that it does nothing if the enemy is smart. Spamming it off CD is a surefire way of wasting it and making sure the enemy knows it's coming, and if you save it for too long you end up having to give up a lot of damage, since it's also the only real burst damage that the Spellbreaker has (despite being much weaker than Core or Berserker bursts). There is definitely a factor of risk/reward to the skill.

[Genoshock.2104]

Maybe don't attack when you see the animation? 2 seconds or something?

[Loop.8106]

@Genoshock.2104 said:Maybe don't attack when you see the animation? 2 seconds or something?

Im gonna take it you havnt read more than the first sentance of this post. It procs off of symbols along with every other aoe.

[Genoshock.2104]

Ok then nerf ranger and guardian...

Perma boons perma aegis perma regen.

Watch your aoe and symbols!!

[Kaga.7629]

The moral panic is live, on day one. I predicted people would complain about full counter, and HERE WE ARE !

I'll try to put it all in context. HoT massively increased boon application to the point where several "Boon fatty" bunker builds emerged. However, boon rip/ steal did not evolve at the same rate and couldn't keep up with it, giving rise to the fullon fatty ranger/elly/guards that could buff, heal and dance on a cap quasi-forever. Spellbreaker , full counter and the massive amount of boon rip this spec gets is a way to evolve the balance towards an equilibrium between boon application and removal, and to force "the fatties" to evolve their gameplay or face the consequences (aka their boons not be as dependable as before).

In the current balance environment, full revenge counter BARELY keeps up with the condi shenadigans going on. And really, let's be honest : the moral panic is about warriors suddenly not being a free kill. Evolve your gameplay and learn not to complain on DAY ONE. like waadaafuh...

[Oslaf Beinir.5842]

what is wrong with active play? it is fine.something needs to dismantle the pesky druids, Chronomancers and scrappers.

[Odokuro.5049]

Ohh a skill that punishes skill spammers, and encourages people to do well timed attacks and bursts? FC like any other skill, has a cool down, a cool down that is long enough for most if not all classes/builds to be able to spin together a combo or other spike/burst damage. This ability for Spellbreaker is fine as is, heck, Spellbreaker is basically designed for punishing mistakes, stripping boons, and taking full advantage of stunned/dazed opponents.

Gone all the days where people put thought into how they went about killing someone in pvp/wvw ect. and now with the new generation of gamers who just want things ez-mode so they can ROFLMAO all over their keyboards.

[Sartharina.3542]

Hit it with a Scepter AA

[sephiroth.4217]

Full Counter has only been killing me when I mindlessly try and spam skills on a Warrior.... Wouldn't exactly say thats nerf worthy.

[Elxdark.9702]

guys is this the spellbreaker nerf waiting room?

[shadowpass.4236]

If a warrior uses healing signet and adrenal health, not attacking for 2 seconds every 8 seconds is time when a warrior can get full use of those passives. Basically, 1/4 of the time, they heal uninterrupted.

I'd be perfectly fine if Full Counter didn't daze. Its tough to get around that, especially when you're in melee range on a point. Any aoe/AI attacking means that this skills gets off every time.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@choovanski.5462 said:feel like y'all should take more than a day to play against it, and figure it out

there might be a cool trick y'all ain't onto yet

lol I think I can guess what it is but I wont risk spoiling it