Full Counter

[Caedmon.6798]

@Arheundel.6451 said:Between stances, shield block, pulsating resistance, dmg immunity...and now full counter....berseker 2.0 ready to roll...now awaiting for the next 10+ months of 2x spellbreaker in pvp followed by dozen of nerfs threads and warrior players telling you to dodge obvious animation...so dodge 10+ times easily...did I miss anything?

People dont have access to their own skills anymore ? People dont have immunitys,leaps,cc's,able to pressure on their own,boonrips ? Besides when you say "Between stances,shield block,pulsating resistance,dmg immunity "" You kinda say the same thing 4x .Could have ended it with "Dmg immunity".Dont act like were the only class that has dmg immunity,resist,or healing.Overall damage on dagger is mediocre,the burst is mediocre dmg wise,AA dmg is mediocre..So no you dont have to avoid all damage.The burst damage is obviously lower because of counter and it able to reset a burst.You still have to focus on avoiding Counter - burst damage mostly,since you mess up their cleansing + adren hp stacking and their 2 biggest most needed hits.

Removing the unblockable effect makes no sense,we finally have a Counter vs the block spamm,3 days in and people want it removed.

Ive seen some insane condi spammers,a near unkillable ele,been hit by a deadeye for 16k,got applied 30 stacks of burn almost instantly by a firebrand...Why dont i feel the need to cry on the forum to nerf these classes ? Because i think its fun to learn how to counter every spec without instantly screaming OVERPOWERED when you die to them.

[ArthurDent.9538]

@Zeghart.9841 said:

@Erzian.5218 said:Permanent resistance with very little tradeoff is also questionable as it renders all condition builds that do not have access to frequent boon removal (realistically everything but necro) useless.

You mean it would completely fix PvP?!

ALL HAIL SPELLBREAKER

But to be serious, I don't think Spellbreaker "hard counters" anything. Yes, it's especially strong against Ranger/Mesmer/Guardian, but it's not like hitting into a Full Counter automatically means losing. It's just a 3k hit that can still be dodged, avoided or kited. Not to mention that breaking the FC due to a pet autoattack or a summon hit

makes it unavailable for blocking meatier attacks

.

In fact those same class mechanics can work the opposite way if playing smartly, using the pet or the illusions to purposefully bait and waste the Spellbreaker's FC while in a good position. I've seen that happen multiple times lately, as people start to get more experience fighting the spec.

So far I'd say the spec as a whole had a very beneficial impact on the PvP scene. Since it somewhat counters some of the cheesier builds they tend to be played a bit less, and people mindlessly spamming skills get punished and hopefully learn to pay more attention.

It all comes down to how hard of a counter does it have to be to be considered a hard counter? For instance just because a thief in legendary division can easily beat bronze tier guardians does that mean guard doesn't hard counter thief? Sure really bad spell breakers can lose to things other than scourge (which seems to be its one counter), however it seems to me that other classes have to completely out play spellbreaker in order to beat it.

[Mikeskies.1536]

Guys, let's nerf Spellbreaker's only class mechanic so that it's just a Core Warrior restricted to Level 1 Bursts.

[Zeghart.9841]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:It all comes down to how hard of a counter does it have to be to be considered a hard counter?

A hard counter implies completely shutting down the enemy. Spellbreaker would be a soft counter at best.And as I said even those classes against which SB is most effective can use those same mechanics against it, to a degree.

For instance just because a thief in legendary division can easily beat bronze tier guardians does that mean guard doesn't hard counter thief? Sure really bad spell breakers > can lose to things other than scourge (which seems to be its one counter), however it seems to me that other classes have to completely out play spellbreaker in order to > beat it.

I don't understand the reasoning, that's obviously down to individual skill and not game mechanics.

Every class has the same tools for completely outplaying FC, namely dodges, kiting and not spamming skills. And it definitely doesn't take a legendary player to press dodge after activating a Full Counter, or doing nothing/getting out of range when you very obviously see the Spellbreaker use it.

That's without mentioning that abilities should never be balanced to the lowest common denominator.If that was the case, almost every skill in the game would seem overpowered to an inexperienced player.

[choovanski.5462]

@Mikeskies.1536 said:Guys, let's nerf Spellbreaker's only class mechanic so that it's just a Core Warrior restricted to Level 1 Bursts.

the interesting thing is no one is really saying what’s OP about it. they are just QQing ‘too hard whah wah wah wah’

like, is the damage the issue? because it’s pretty poor, & warrior gives up the big doink t3 bursts to get counter

or is it the 1/2 sec daze? because that’s not a big cc at all

perhaps that it blocks one attack then evades for 1/2 sec? because thats not a ton of sustain, & you have to time it well to make it count

2sec stab? because with so much boon rip & corrupt idk how that’s an issue

or is it a guardian QQing about the unblockable? because yall can suck that up

the cd is pretty short i will say, but make it too high & it’s gonna be trash

========

so like? what’s the big problem w the skill?yeah it’s annoying, & it makes you think when you play- but dude it’s the spellbreaker’s only ‘thing’. like that’s all. it has to be good.

so y’all who’s eyes brim with tears that are now overflowing into this thread, what’s your nerf suggestion? what needs to change to balance it? you know balance it, not make it worthless.

personally i have a ranged weapon on nearly all of the builds i play. so i can just proc counter from out of range most of the time, & on the off chance i eat it its a short daze & meh damage. i don’t play a lot of condi, so the condi hate from traits is like whatever to me.

[Aeolus.3615]

Daze need to be removed...or swaped for something else, unblokc able, stability removed and dazer.. on 8sec CD its a bit much.

[ArthurDent.9538]

@Zeghart.9841 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:It all comes down to how hard of a counter does it have to be to be considered a hard counter?

A hard counter implies completely shutting down the enemy. Spellbreaker would be a soft counter at best.And as I said even those classes against which SB is most effective can use those same mechanics against it, to a degree.

For instance just because a thief in legendary division can easily beat bronze tier guardians does that mean guard doesn't hard counter thief? Sure really bad spell breakers > can lose to things other than scourge (which seems to be its one counter), however it seems to me that other classes have to completely out play spellbreaker in order to > beat it.

I don't understand the reasoning, that's obviously down to individual skill and not game mechanics.

Every class has the same tools for completely outplaying FC, namely

dodges, kiting and not spamming skills

. And it definitely doesn't take a legendary player to press dodge after activating a Full Counter, or doing nothing/getting out of range when you very obviously see the Spellbreaker use it.

That's without mentioning that abilities should never be balanced to the lowest common denominator.If that was the case, almost every skill in the game would seem overpowered to an inexperienced player.

The point is that your argument is that spellbreaker is not op because it doesn't hard counter anything. However your definition of hard counter seems to require the match up to be pretty much impossible regardless of skill level in which case there are has never been a hard counter. We can extend this logic as since there has never been a hard counter, nothing has ever been imbalanced and in need of nerf which if that is you argument then ok.

[Khenzy.9348]

Range reduced to 130, CD increased to 12s, base damage reduced by 50%, 50% more damage when interrupting a skill. There, fixed.

[Rodzynald.5897]

@nicknamenick.2437 said:

@Loop.8106 said:

@nicknamenick.2437 said:Dont hit it?

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Stop spamming your skillbar like a rabid monkey. Stop being bad. Thank god the game finally has an ability that punishes people who 12345. May all the bads finally find out just out truly bad they are - AMEN.

It procs off of symbols. You're asking me to not sword 2 / LB 4 or finish hammer auto chain for the chance that the warrior might have the 8 second cooldown instant activation counter attack that grants 100% damage reduction + evade frames and hits about as hard as a tier 2 evis?

It does not only proc on symbols, it procs on DH f1 tether, wells, kitten, pets, minions, Ele overloads. So if you think there is any

counterplay

to the skill now, you're the the one that's bad.

Use your knockback skill if you cant kite him.. use some skill or find a way. Because there are ways too counter it. Your a guardian. I dont feel bad at all for you.

Haven't you noticed that this skill grants stability?The thing about spellbreaker is who you play as. It's pretty much build wars 2 at this point and personal skill does 1/4 of the work. As long as I deal burst damage with hammer I can stop and kite around, maybe hide behind something when there is full counter. Tho I tried using soft cc's and blind, they mostly go ape-crazy when they pop zerk stance and nothing can really stop them 1v1. All in all spellb is a hard counter versus melee builds and a strong one against other builds and I can't really tell if it is really too strong, or just needs some time to get used to fighting against. If it comes to 1v1 even if you are ranged a spellbreaker who is not a flavour of the month player, will chase you down on sword. They just don't have a way to fight on distance, but they have sustain, mobility, damage, disrupting the flow of boons. It's a wacky spec that has quite a low risk to it with a high reward behind it just due to the fact it has lot of things to offer at once, and those things are strong.Play it until it is hot bois, it's a good way to do more while trying less.

[Zeghart.9841]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:The point is that your argument is that spellbreaker is not op because it doesn't hard counter anything. However your definition of hard counter seems to require the match up to be pretty much impossible regardless of skill level in which case there are has never been a hard counter. We can extend this logic as since there has never been a hard counter, nothing has ever been imbalanced and in need of nerf which if that is you argument then ok.

No, my point is that Spellbreaker isn't OP because nothing in it is unbalanced. The damage it can do is way below what Core Warrior or Berserker can dish out. No t2/t3 bursts. Less adrenaline bars. Fewer damage multiplier traits. Worse activation of adrenaline-related traits. Literally all the spec has going for it is Full Counter, which as I said can be completely avoided before and after being popped. Avoid Full Counter (which again, even if you activate it can be negated with a simple dodge) and Spellbreaker has zero burst damage.

It doesn't hard counter anything because as you said, there are no real hard counters in the game. Which is a shame if I have to be honest, since having real hard counters would make the PvP scene much more varied, but it's how it is. It's a soft counter at best for some builds, and even those that fare the worst against a SB still have plenty of ways to play around it.

@Rodzynald.5897 said:Haven't you noticed that this skill grants stability?

A single stack of stability. Lasting 2 seconds.Full Counter does multiple things, but none of those are particularly strong. A block. Half a second daze. Half a second evade. A single stability stack lasting 2 whole seconds. Moderate damage. It's really not that much, and is completely avoidable by either not attacking for a second, dodging or simply being out of range.And Warrior trades almost all of its offensive potential for it.

It just seems like a L2P issue more than an unbalanced skill, to be fair. The more I play as SB and against it, the more it seems clear.

[Darknicrofia.2604]

Full counter is basically HoT launch version of ToF with the daze trait.

Remove the daze, increase CD by 2 seconds and nerf the damage by a bit, problem solved.

[choovanski.5462]

@Darknicrofia.2604 said:Full counter is basically HoT launch version of ToF with the daze trait.

Remove the daze, increase CD by 2 seconds and nerf the damage by a bit, problem solved.

the daze has to stay. it has high synergy with the spellbreaker line, it’s needed.

cutting the damage scaling down (to 1.5 or something), & halving the range to 150 would be my go to. smaller range makes the skill super easy to strafe to avoid. i don’t think a cooldown increase is needed if you cut the radius down, because it becomes so much harder to land

[Erzian.5218]

@Zeghart.9841 said:

It just seems like a L2P issue more than an unbalanced skill, to be fair. The more I play as SB and against it, the more it seems clear.

I wonder why random warriors players on the forums are so good while the top mesmer and ranger players, who have frequently done well in tournaments before, have a "L2P" issue all of a sudden and therefore have to play 100% passive (e.g. Frosty) or reroll to spellbreaker (e.g. Misha).

[Mikeskies.1536]

The funny thing is, as a Spellbreaker, I don't have a problem dealing with other Spellbreaker's Full Counter. If I see it used, I either time my next attack to hit right after Full Counter falls off or dodge the ability if I proc'd it. It hasn't been a problem. It really is a L2P issue. And sure, it is powerful when running into a group fight to have it land on multiple people by proccing it off an AoE or pulsing ground effect, but it also is quite a risky move.

[Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2]

@Erzian.5218 said:

@Zeghart.9841 said:

It just seems like a L2P issue more than an unbalanced skill, to be fair. The more I play as SB and against it, the more it seems clear.

I wonder why random warriors players on the forums are so good while the top mesmer and ranger players, who have frequently done well in tournaments before, have a "L2P" issue all of a sudden and therefore have to play 100% passive (e.g. Frosty) or reroll to spellbreaker (e.g. Misha).

I couldn't agree anymore. it's the darndest thing lol. friggin ''frosty has to l2p''

''obviously there is some secret society of of beyond pro players level hiding in the shadows with low ratings, zero partipation in any tournaments and no credentials to substantiate their claims, however when asked to prove thier worth, they will decline as this level of ''competion is below them ofcourse'' ''

[Loop.8106]

@Mikeskies.1536 said:The funny thing is, as a Spellbreaker, I don't have a problem dealing with other Spellbreaker's Full Counter. If I see it used, I either time my next attack to hit right after Full Counter falls off or dodge the ability if I proc'd it. It hasn't been a problem. It really is a L2P issue. And sure, it is powerful when running into a group fight to have it land on multiple people by proccing it off an AoE or pulsing ground effect, but it also is quite a risky move.

You clearly don't grasp the concept of this conversation. The thing about Warrior skills are that of the Scrapper of sorts, they do multiple things. Such as Whirlwind having an evade frame attached to it. This means getting a third dodge bar (more or less) seeing as dodges recharge every 10 seconds without Vigor. This means, a class doesn't have enough dodges for dodging every full counter. Much less all the other shit a class HAS to dodge vs warriors. Again, Whirlwind, Rush, Shield Bash to name a few outside of the burst skills.

I get that a class shouldn't be able to dodge each and every skill an enemy throws at them, but Warrior's one of the classes that always had a bunch of "must-dodge" abilities. Seeing as bursts are the majority of a Warriors sustain, through both Adrenal Health and Cleansing Ire I do understand that they need to hit.

As for @Zeghart.9841 . Sure the skill doesn't do 9k damage or give you perma stab, that doesn't mean the skill isn't too stacked. Having a skill give Immune, Evade, Burst (hits for about 3.5-5k without protection on heavy armored classes), Daze and Stab without even having to trait the skill. That's too much. That's the reason they removed Daze from traps a while back, they simply offered too much for no risk.This is the issue with Spellbreaker right now. They offer great, if not the best 1v1. They are very decent in teamfights due to boon-rip + daze and decent damage. There's just no risk into bringing them into a comp.

Scourge being the second biggest offender of PvP right now, has a risk into stacking them due to their squishy-ness.

There's a reason the number 2 spot on EU belongs to a warrior that was top 25 before the expansion dropped, and it's no coincidence that hes duo-queing with another Spellbreaker.

It just seems like a L2P issue more than an unbalanced skill, to be fair. The more I play as SB and against it, the more it seems clear.

Of course not, you're playing the same spec. (Even if you're on core warrior, you have a lot more sustain / dodges than most other classes out there. Due to defense being negate oriented, such as Endure Pain/ Shield 5 and not protection / vigor / Regen oriented.)

[sinject.4607]

@choovanski.5462 said:

@sinject.4607 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@sinject.4607 said:Full Counter is definitely the most over rewarding skill in the game right now. every other PoF Elite Spec isn’t a direct upgrade as Anet have been trying to do, yet it’s clear Spellbreaker and Scourge are head over heels better than their core/HoT counterparts. there’s a reason why this is easily the most viewed thread on the pvp forums as of late.

do remember tho, berserker was nerfed so much it became worse than core warrior just before PoF. so comparing the two specialisations isn’t really fair.

as far as full counter goes, is it worse than steal, continuum split etc? like it’s good, but it’s the only thing you get from spellbreaker- & you have to give up t2 & t3 bursts, which is a lot of cc/damage lost. so it should be a strong skill.

If it's such a steep investment then why does literally every person playing PoF Warrior go for it, and experience nothing but net gain? Anet actually did a really good job of making core specs viable, it was never something specific to warrior. Core thief can absolutely compete with HoT/PoF specs very easily, as can core ranger, guardian, etc.

To compare Steal with Full Counter is a complete joke and really exemplifies how desperate you are to keep a broken mechanic intact.

baseline Steal:

• a 1200 range teleport
• mediocre single use skill IF it lands
• on a 30 second cooldown.

baseline Full Counter:

• gives you full damage immunity for the duration of the attack and an additional 1/2 second after proc
• an AoE UNBLOCKABLE attack that can crit for 3-4k+
• 2 seconds of stability
• 1/2sec daze
• on an 8 second cooldown

to complain about having to invest in one traitline to make an already really strong skill even stronger is just a laughable joke when thief has needed trickery since the beginning of the game to make Steal even passable as a our only mechanic.

I actually didn't buy the expac and am still playing gunflame or DH (I can just proc full counter from range and ignore it lol) , but yeah dude keep projecting. keep thinking it's personal bias, and continue with the attacks. it doesn't make you look good, and it's wrong so whatever.

all I said was it's the elite spec's mechanic so it should be good, and that comparing it to berserker is unfair due to recent nerfs. like, I don't expect photon forge to be terrible, or any of the other mechanics. they should ideally be good.

elite specs are meant to be upgrades. it's evidenced in the design, not in anet's vapid PR speak. so I expect the mechanics they add to be actually good. considering the utilities are poor, and the weapon isn't that great it's no surprise full counter is good, there's little reason other than that to pick the spec for pvp.

core warrior is only good vs Berserker due to nerfs. don't kid yourself. also core thief and core ranger viable? lol maybe in a solo queue clown fiesta but not in a tournament. you would have to be.... god I don't even have a word... but if I did it would be a rude one, and I would use it to describe the level of intelligence somone would need to slot core thief or core ranger in a team. lol.

tbh. I feel like you don't know anything if you think core ranger is a good pick, and honestly don't know why anyone would value your opinions on balance at all considering that.

anyhow. it might well need shaves. I can't say 100%. but warrior is a class that is historically overnerfed in PvP. it gets reduced to dog tier all the time, and usually because of forum QQ. I would hate to see it happen another time. it's nice for things to be viable.

literally everything you said is wrong and you've made it painfully obvious you're a low-tier player that hasn't made it out of bronze yet.

Anet has clearly shown in their recent adjustments they now actually are attempting to make elite specs just another playstyle as opposed to direct upgrades, which is why people have issue with Spellbreaker/Scourge when almost every other PoF elite is on par with (or worse than) their core/HoT counterparts. core warrior and beserker are both fine, you guys just can't faceroll a stupid build that passively keeps you alive on them anymore and you wanna complain about it like it was the end of times and getting an overpowered PoF spec is only fair for all your hardships suffered at the evil hand of Anet lmao.

and yes, just because people in your MMR range or you yourself are incapable of playing core Thief or Ranger doesn't mean its bad. i've played largely core s/d Thief since they made the changes to Acro and S/D and can easily beat Daredevils/Deadeyes and pretty much every other spec in the game. same goes for Ranger, which people have been playing for a while for it's damage capability over Druid's emphasis on sustain.

@choovanski.5462 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@sinject.4607 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@sinject.4607 said:Full Counter is definitely the most over rewarding skill in the game right now. every other PoF Elite Spec isn’t a direct upgrade as Anet have been trying to do, yet it’s clear Spellbreaker and Scourge are head over heels better than their core/HoT counterparts. there’s a reason why this is easily the most viewed thread on the pvp forums as of late.

do remember tho, berserker was nerfed so much it became worse than core warrior just before PoF. so comparing the two specialisations isn’t really fair.

as far as full counter goes, is it worse than steal, continuum split etc? like it’s good, but it’s the only thing you get from spellbreaker- & you have to give up t2 & t3 bursts, which is a lot of cc/damage lost. so it should be a strong skill.

If it's such a steep investment then why does literally every person playing PoF Warrior go for it, and experience nothing but net gain? Anet actually did a really good job of making core specs viable, it was never something specific to warrior. Core thief can absolutely compete with HoT/PoF specs very easily, as can core ranger, guardian, etc.

To compare Steal with Full Counter is a complete joke and really exemplifies how desperate you are to keep a broken mechanic intact.

baseline Steal:

• a 1200 range teleport
• mediocre single use skill IF it lands
• on a 30 second cooldown.

baseline Full Counter:

• gives you full damage immunity for the duration of the attack and an additional 1/2 second after proc
• an AoE UNBLOCKABLE attack that can crit for 3-4k+
• 2 seconds of stability
• 1/2sec daze
• on an 8 second cooldown

to complain about having to invest in one traitline to make an already really strong skill even stronger is just a laughable joke when thief has needed trickery since the beginning of the game to make Steal even passable as a our only mechanic.

Isn't deadeye oneshotting people from range?Why are you comparing two opposite spectrums?Did you not look at the nerfs to berseker that made it worse than core warrior?I feel like you started this post with no clue about what you are even complaining about.

Go deadeye and pick people off like everyone else that got PoF

I know right? class that hits for 25-30k with one skill complains about 3-4k damage.

then tells us core ranger is viable.

who is this person?

Deadeye can at most hit for 8-12k with a skill that is insanely avoidable, on a weaponset everyone is saying is useless, on an elite that is widely considered to be the worst in PvP period (see the: Which PoF Elite Do You Want Least On Your Team thread). Anyone who complains about Deadeye might as well excuse themselves from this discussion. I dunno who you think you are, but your IQ is probably around the same as warrior's APM.

[choovanski.5462]

@"sinject.4607"show me core ranger or core thief being a viable pick for a good AT team, & i will eat my words. i specifically specified ‘viable’ as being in a team environment, but your reading comprehension is terrible so you missed it. good job.

am i sad about berserker being nerfed so much that it’s worse than core warrior (& it is)? yeah dude, i’m miffed. the spec i was having fun playing now has awful sustain.

but, i find it absolutely laughable that you think somone who not only doesn’t own PoF, but has also proposed nerfs to spellbreaker is trying to cling onto a “overpowered PoF spec”. but then again you’re reading comprehension is awful, so im not suprised.

as for your comment about elite specs being equal to core, they aren’t. they won’t ever be. if you want to contest me on that show me a team that does well in tournaments that uses them (sans warrior, which is only due to pre expac funsies). i doubt you can find one. elite builds are ‘elite’ & are all better picks than a core build for team play. ask any actually high level player if they want core ranger on their team (they dont).

as far as the deadeye comment, i was being farcical. dead eye can hit well over 20k with one skill, over 30k infact.

! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iC9r-cIC544there’s a video, not the only one either. theres a ton a videos & screenshots showing the bonkers damage that class can do. somone even got over 100k (meme dream lol).i just think it’s a bit silly when a 3-4k damage skill is all shock horror, & the 30k skill is not even talked about. sure deadeye is thought to be bad rn, but that could easily change. lots of things fly under the radar until some streamer shows them off. we will see how deadeye turns out, but currently it can insta kill anything without an auto proc invun with one shot. idk how healthy that is ;-)

to close, i suggest you stop worrying about other peoples skill at this game- & instead work on reading things & then understanding them. you might have to read them more than once. it might be hard, but with some effort i really think you can do it.hey, you could even have dyslexia, maybe you want to check that out.

TLDR

learn to read

[Kaga.7629]

Deadeye can at most hit for 8-12k with a skill that is insanely avoidable, on a weaponset everyone is saying is useless, on an elite that is widely considered to be the worst in PvP period (see the: Which PoF Elite Do You Want Least On Your Team thread). Anyone who complains about Deadeye might as well excuse themselves from this discussion. I dunno who you think you are, but your IQ is probably around the same as warrior's APM.

These lies. These trump level waadaafuizhetalkingabout lies.Deadeyes can hit for 15K @ 1500 range FROM STEALTH (because obviously the reveal was allowed to be covered). The projectile can barely be seen ( because of those black/red transparency-like colors) and the "targeting circle" does not help you dodge anything.And this is why every loser that played guard for the past 2 years are dumping their guards and rolling teef , and that's why there's a 1.5 teef per team minimum going on atm in gold. All the while insisting there is nothing wrong, and move along now.

I predicted this moral panic. I predicted people would complain about full counter just because warriors can't be allowed to be anything but a free kill for some people.

ONCE AGAIN, I'll try put it all in context. HoT massively increased boon application to the point where several "Boon fatty" bunker builds emerged. However, boon rip/ steal did not evolve at the same rate and couldn't keep up with it, giving rise to the fullon fatty ranger/elly/guards that could buff, heal and dance on a cap quasi-forever. Spellbreaker , full counter and the massive amount of boon rip this spec gets is a way to evolve the balance towards an equilibrium between boon application and removal, and to force "the fatties" to evolve their gameplay or face the consequences (aka their boons not be as dependable as before).

In the current balance environment, full revenge counter BARELY keeps up with the condi shenadigans going on. There are other, much more broken things at the moment. Evolve your gameplay and stop the lies.

[Zeghart.9841]

@Erzian.5218 said:I wonder why random warriors players on the forums are so good while the top mesmer and ranger players, who have frequently done well in tournaments before, have a "L2P" issue all of a sudden and therefore have to play 100% passive (e.g. Frosty) or reroll to spellbreaker (e.g. Misha).

I do find it quite funny how people are taking opinions of some players like gospel, a few days into the expansion, and that every other opinion is automatically wrong (without being able to explain why).It's also very funny how people expect for every build to be able to work amazingly against another.I guess Warriors aren't supposed to have the advantage on some matchups, like it happens for every other class?For example how Spellbreakers are very susceptible to any kind of kiting.

@Loop.8106 said:Sure the skill doesn't do 9k damage or give you perma stab, that doesn't mean the skill isn't too stacked. Having a skill give Immune, Evade, Burst (hits for about 3.5-5k without protection on heavy armored classes), Daze and Stab without even having to trait the skill. That's too much. That's the reason they removed Daze from traps a while back, they simply offered too much for no risk.

The big difference between Traps and FC is that you can plainly see the Full Counter coming and completely negate it. Either by preventing it from activating in the first place, or if the Warrior does its job and baits you into it, by simply dodging it as you have plenty of time to do so.Yes, as I said it offers a lot (in small quantities), but the Spellbreaker is one of the few new specs to actually have very real drawbacks compared to the core class. No bursts aside t1, less adrenaline bars, worse trait application, fewer damage modifiers - if all you got in exchange for that was a block every X seconds that counterhits for less than a t1 burst, the whole spec might as well be completely dumpstered.

Of course not, you're playing the same spec. (Even if you're on core warrior, you have a lot more sustain / dodges than most other classes out there. Due to defense being negate oriented, such as Endure Pain/ Shield 5 and not protection / vigor / Regen oriented.)

I'm not, at least not exclusively. The builds I've been playing recently are Spellbreaker, Core Warrior, Scourge and Holosmith. Enemy Spellbreakers tend to be quite tanky and survivable due to the blocks and resistance uptime, but outside FC the burst they can output is pretty low and they usually have problems generating downs if they don't land it. Scourge especially seems to deal with them quite easily, though I guess it's to be expected.

There's a reason the number 2 spot on EU belongs to a warrior that was top 25 before the expansion dropped, and it's no coincidence that hes duo-queing with another Spellbreaker.

Being Top 25 with the poor excuse of a class that was Warrior pre-PoF and post-nerf sounds like quite an achievement, not sure what you're implying.That said, I'm not trying to say that Spellbreaker isn't very effective. It is. What I'm trying to say is that there's no reason why it shouldn't.Nothing about Full Counter seems particularly gamebreaking on its own, and the spec is paying dearly on other aspects for it to have a right to be effective.

[sinject.4607]

@Kaga.7629 said:

Deadeye can at most hit for 8-12k with a skill that is insanely avoidable, on a weaponset everyone is saying is useless, on an elite that is widely considered to be the worst in PvP period (see the: Which PoF Elite Do You Want Least On Your Team thread). Anyone who complains about Deadeye might as well excuse themselves from this discussion. I dunno who you think you are, but your IQ is probably around the same as warrior's APM.

These lies. These trump level waadaafuizhetalkingabout lies.Deadeyes can hit for 15K @ 1500 range FROM STEALTH (because obviously the reveal was allowed to be covered). The projectile can barely be seen ( because of those black/red transparency-like colors) and the "targeting circle" does not help you dodge anything.And this is why every loser that played guard for the past 2 years are dumping their guards and rolling teef , and that's why there's a 1.5 teef per team minimum going on atm in gold. All the while insisting there is nothing wrong, and move along now.

I predicted this moral panic. I predicted people would complain about full counter just because warriors can't be allowed to be anything but a free kill for some people.

ONCE AGAIN, I'll try put it all in context. HoT massively increased boon application to the point where several "Boon fatty" bunker builds emerged. However, boon rip/ steal did not evolve at the same rate and couldn't keep up with it, giving rise to the fullon fatty ranger/elly/guards that could buff, heal and dance on a cap quasi-forever. Spellbreaker , full counter and the massive amount of boon rip this spec gets is a way to evolve the balance towards an equilibrium between boon application and removal, and to force "the fatties" to evolve their gameplay or face the consequences (aka their boons not be as dependable as before).

In the current balance environment, full revenge counter BARELY keeps up with the condi shenadigans going on. There are other, much more broken things at the moment. Evolve your gameplay and stop the lies.

DEATH'S JUDGEMENT SELF-INFLICTS REVEALED BEFORE CAST. Anet specifically made it impossible for the scenario (15k from stealth) you're talking about to happen even with Shadow Meld equipped. You're just lying at this point to attack arguably the worst or second worst elite in the game to protect your overpowered $30 easy win ticket. The projectile animation is almost identical to killshot too, except slightly dark-redder. No transparency to it at all.

And the numbers im talking about are given a realistic build and not a glass cannon build you see in low-tier pvp. Right now, Deadeye NEEDS Shadow Arts for any survivability (no other traitlines can offer any synergy with Rifle defensively at all), and since Deadeye is still Thief, it also pretty much needs Trickery too especially given how bad the Deadeye Mark mechanic is. Even if you didn't take Trickery (DEADEYE/SHADOW ARTS/ X ) there isn't a traitline left that gives you the kind of damage you're talking about and Death's Judgement can only hit for ~13.4k MAX on a LIGHT ARMORED opponent if you take the best damage option open to you, Deadly Arts, which in turn guts your initiative/Mark use almost entirely which makes you a slightly more survivable gimmick.

Go look at the Thief sub forum right now and look at every Deadeye thread. It's ALL complaints or people trying to cope and find niche uses for the elite.

Also i find it hilarious you're talking about a "Boon epidemic" when Warrior is the worst offender with passive boons at every corner and nobody is even bringing up boon ripping at all. many other professions, namely Thief and Necro, are very very capable of severe boon-hate so don't act like the entire meta being fun is contingent on how overpowered your profession is.

[shadowpass.4236]

Core ranger is stronger than druid.

[Pax.3548]

Full counter is alright, you only need to adapt your playstyle to the current gameplay, not the other way around.

[Kaga.7629]

@sinject.4607 said:DEATH'S JUDGEMENT SELF-INFLICTS REVEALED BEFORE CAST. Anet specifically made it impossible for the scenario (15k from stealth) you're talking about

And since i will not discuss how to glitch your own profession, let me say this : either thru glitch/desync/warping+ stealthing , that revealed gets covered. And i haven't even started talking about marked targets being able to be pewed thru walls/stealth. It's happening. You can either keep lying or get on with the program.

The damage videos are already out there and show, without an doubt, death's judgement hitting for well behond that mythical, impossible 13.4K you like to talk about ( Do i detect a made up number here? ). The first replies that came up when i talked about 15K death's judgement in the spvp lobby, just right now?

Some random thief saying : "That seems low. I hit for 17K just a match ago".

So really, your dumb trolling will not stand.

[OriOri.8724]

@choovanski.5462 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:Guys, let's nerf Spellbreaker's only class mechanic so that it's just a Core Warrior restricted to Level 1 Bursts.

the interesting thing is no one is really saying what’s OP about it. they are just QQing ‘too hard whah wah wah wah’

like, is the damage the issue? because it’s pretty poor, & warrior gives up the big doink t3 bursts to get counter

or is it the 1/2 sec daze? because that’s not a big cc at all

perhaps that it blocks one attack then evades for 1/2 sec? because thats not a ton of sustain, & you have to time it well to make it count

2sec stab? because with so much boon rip & corrupt idk how that’s an issue

or is it a guardian QQing about the unblockable? because yall can kitten that up

the cd is pretty short i will say, but make it too high & it’s gonna be trash

========

so like? what’s the big problem w the skill?yeah it’s annoying, & it makes you think when you play- but dude it’s the spellbreaker’s only ‘thing’. like that’s all. it has to be good.

so y’all who’s eyes brim with tears that are now overflowing into this thread, what’s your nerf suggestion? what needs to change to balance it? you know balance it, not make it worthless.

personally i have a ranged weapon on nearly all of the builds i play. so i can just proc counter from out of range most of the time, & on the off chance i eat it its a short daze & meh damage. i don’t play a lot of condi, so the condi hate from traits is like whatever to me.

@choovanski.5462 Suggestions on how to tone down full counter? Personally, I think that the most important thing is making the daze single target. An AoE daze that can hit you because one of your teammates (or clones/pets for mesmer/ranger respectively) makes a mistake, and then proc a lot of interrupt traits for the SB is just not fun to play against. That's potentially punishing me because of my teammate, and I fundamentally disagree with stuff of this nature. So, most important would be moving daze to single target instead of AoE daze. Other than that, _maybe _reduce the damage or range a tiny bit. But I really just want to see AoE daze removed from this skill. That's it for baseline changes to full counter.

But then you look at it fully traited, and you start to see why some people have problems with it. Baseline, it also removes a boon from every player interrupted and gives you insight, due to your minor traits (another reason why I think the daze shouldn't be AoE, too much interaction with these minors). Fully traited, it will also give you prot, cripple AND slow the other players , deals extra damage on top of a 2.0 modifier, copies 5 condis, and also grants resistance, on an 8 second CD. In that context, it does too many things, when fully traited, for such a low CD skill. So maybe toning down some of those traits a bit. Maybe something like applying cripple or slow instead of both, or only copying 3 conditions instead of 5. As it stands now though, Full Counter does too much when fully traited.