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Elder Dragons(Spoilers)


Tyson.5160

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@Lance Von Alden.8415 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:So in the story mission, Kralkatorrik attacked Amnoon and has since created death branded that look like regular branded except with black misty energy coming off them. These minions were able to raise dead human thus creating branded thralls . In episode 2 it showed a branded wyvern branding dead devourers.

Kralkatorrik would have absorbed these spheres from Balthazar’s death. The Pof cinematic showed slightly different colouring branded crystals and one of the devs advised it was because of the new influences.

The point is that by the name it seems like they use both naming customs of Kralky's Branded and Zhaity's Risen, so I think they are an actual combination of Death and Crystal Spheres, not Branding the Undead like some people mentioned before.

Canach: But enough chitchat. Those Branded lieutenants are raising undead. I hope you wore your Risen-kicking boots.

PA Announcer: Imagine! Communications technology enhanced by the unique hive-mind abilities of Kralkatorrik's minions.If The Road to Rata Primus is active:Taimi: What? Their hive mind?Taimi: I wonder if that ability is something Kralkatorrik absorbed after Mordremoth's death. Some piece of its magical nature...PA Announcer: Fast, efficient, reliable. We are the future of communication

Entering Necrobrand Emulation LabPA Announcer: Greetings, Lab Alpha-Two-Two! The administration is pleased with your findings.PA Announcer: The ability of Kralkatorrik's lieutenants to Brand the dead suggests many promising applications.PA Announcer: Keep up the good work! And remember: we care.If The Road to Rata Primus is active:Taimi: Branding the dead. Sounds like Zhaitan. More evidence of new abilities after absorbing dragon magic.

Not really seeing the issue here. If Kralkatorrik could do this naturally why are we mentioning him branding the dead and then Taimi saying sounds like Zhaitan. More evidence of new abilities after absorbing dragon magic.

If all the Elder dragon could corrupt the dead, Zhaitan’s death sphere is useless and worthless, it means nothing.

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@Lance Von Alden.8415 said:I don't recall Kralky ever absorving Jormy's or Primordy's spheres of influence magic, like ever. Yes Balthy was absorbing their magic but let's keep in mind that he was a god, not a dragon, so maybe he absorbed the raw magic and never got their spheres.

Balthazar got most of his power from Jormag and Primordus, and Kralkatorrik (and Aurene) ate Balthazar's magic, so they would have gotten some of Jormag's and Primordus' power by default. As well as the Bloodstone's.

That said, the end cinematic of PoF was designed in a way to depict Kralkatorrik's new powers, so we were told by devs. In it, we see not just a dead devourer being branded with black mist swelling around it (likely createda Death-Branded Devourer rather than simply being a case of corrupting a corpse which seems unlikely to be new in of itself). We similarly also see the sky turning red around Kralkatorrik (this may be reflecting his powers from Primordus), and the crystals are not just purpose, but some have a blue ice-like hue to them (reflecting powers from Jormag).

@Lance Von Alden.8415 said:As for that discussion about draconic energy and magic. Wasn't magic like a gift from the gods, that was taken away and then like forced back to Tyria?

That was the "original lore" which was, with Arah explorable, proven to have been a falsified account of human history. The truth is that magic is part of the world, that the Seers created the Bloodstone to house magic during the last dragonrise, and the gods' "gift of magic" was simply them unleashing magic from the Bloodstone into the world at multiple intervals. Them sealing it away was them redoing what the Seers did, as well as taking magic from Zhaitan himself.

It's what you call a retcon.

@Lance Von Alden.8415 said:But anyway, Elementalist do control all elemental magic, but if we analize the hints, so do the dragons, maybe. Primordy is Fire and Earth (right?), Kralky is Air (you guys say it is still rumors?), DSD (Bubbles?) could be Water.

Primordus being Earth is highly speculative still. And so is the DSD being water - in fact, from what little we know, water is rather unlikely. Water is what the DSD corrupts, while the domains tend to reflect how their corruption manifests - Kralkatorrik corrupts grass, it becomes crystal, for example. The DSD corrupt water, and turns it into "tentacled monstrocities", so its first domain would likely be something to reflect that - tentacled monstrocities.

@Lance Von Alden.8415 said:If we talk about Necros, Zhaity was dead and maybe Shadow is Demons? Or maybe Demonic magic is part of Zhaintan's supposed Shadow Sphere? You could cut me off if you want but maybe dragons control magic of demonic nature too now.

Demons are not tied to shadows or darkness (though many do use shadowy techniques), but rather to the Mists. They are 100% foreign to Tyria, so it's unfathomable for the Elder Dragons' magic to tie to demons in any ways.

@Lance Von Alden.8415 said:As for Plant Magic discussion, I have a theory. Maybe Branded plants were not inanimate plants turned to Branded minions, but rather mutant moving plants that were branded. And maybe only Mordry was able to animate and turn plants into thralls? Cause we have seen plant monsters that move alone, right?

The branded plants were bushes, we even see the same bushes outside of the branded areas, immobile.

@"Tyson.5160" said:Not really seeing the issue here. If Kralkatorrik could do this naturally why are we mentioning him branding the dead and then Taimi saying sounds like Zhaitan. More evidence of new abilities after absorbing dragon magic.

If all the Elder dragon could corrupt the dead, Zhaitan’s death sphere is useless and worthless, it means nothing.

It's being highlighted this way because it's the primary method for which to scream at us "Kralkatorrik at Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic!" without the characters actually knowing this (how could they? They weren't near Kralkatorrik when the others died).

Saying that Zhaitan's sphere should allow the corruption of corpses is like saying that Jormag's sphere of ice is what allows any Elder Dragon to corrupt ice, and that the sphere is pointless if any other Elder Dragon can corrupt ice.

And that's just silly.

The (first) spheres do not reflect what they can corrupt. They reflect how that corruption turns out.

If it were a case of what the Elder Dragons could corrupt, then Kralkatorrik should have been incapable of corrupting anything but crystals until Zhaitan's death, making him the most worthless Elder Dragon (because how many crystals are easily accessible?).

Just as we see Mordremoth corrupting animals, we see Zhaitan corrupting the living and plants. Just as we see Kralkatorrik, Jormag, and Primordus corrupting non-crystal, ice, and fire stuff.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Lance Von Alden.8415 said:I don't recall Kralky ever absorving Jormy's or Primordy's spheres of influence magic, like ever. Yes Balthy was absorbing their magic but let's keep in mind that he was a god, not a dragon, so maybe he absorbed the raw magic and never got their spheres.

Balthazar got most of his power from Jormag and Primordus, and Kralkatorrik (and Aurene) ate Balthazar's magic, so they would have gotten some of Jormag's and Primordus' power by default. As well as the Bloodstone's.

That said, the end cinematic of PoF was designed in a way to depict Kralkatorrik's new powers, so we were told by devs. In it, we see not just a dead devourer being branded with black mist swelling around it (likely createda Death-Branded Devourer rather than simply being a case of corrupting a corpse which seems unlikely to be new in of itself). We similarly also see the sky turning red around Kralkatorrik (this may be reflecting his powers from Primordus), and the crystals are not just purpose, but some have a blue ice-like hue to them (reflecting powers from Jormag).

@Lance Von Alden.8415 said:As for that discussion about draconic energy and magic. Wasn't magic like a gift from the gods, that was taken away and then like forced back to Tyria?

That was the "original lore" which was, with Arah explorable, proven to have been a falsified account of human history. The truth is that magic is part of the world, that the Seers created the Bloodstone to house magic during the last dragonrise, and the gods' "gift of magic" was simply them unleashing magic from the Bloodstone into the world at multiple intervals. Them sealing it away was them redoing what the Seers did, as well as taking magic from Zhaitan himself.

It's what you call a retcon.

@Lance Von Alden.8415 said:But anyway, Elementalist do control all elemental magic, but if we analize the hints, so do the dragons, maybe. Primordy is Fire and Earth (right?), Kralky is Air (you guys say it is still rumors?), DSD (Bubbles?) could be Water.

Primordus being Earth is highly speculative still. And so is the DSD being water - in fact, from what little we know, water is rather unlikely. Water is what the DSD corrupts, while the domains tend to reflect how their corruption manifests - Kralkatorrik corrupts grass, it becomes crystal, for example. The DSD corrupt water, and turns it into "tentacled monstrocities", so its first domain would likely be something to reflect that - tentacled monstrocities.

@Lance Von Alden.8415 said:If we talk about Necros, Zhaity was dead and maybe Shadow is Demons? Or maybe Demonic magic is part of Zhaintan's supposed Shadow Sphere? You could cut me off if you want but maybe dragons control magic of demonic nature too now.

Demons are not tied to shadows or darkness (though many do use shadowy techniques), but rather to the Mists. They are 100% foreign to Tyria, so it's unfathomable for the Elder Dragons' magic to tie to demons in any ways.

@Lance Von Alden.8415 said:As for Plant Magic discussion, I have a theory. Maybe Branded plants were not inanimate plants turned to Branded minions, but rather mutant moving plants that were branded. And maybe only Mordry was able to animate and turn plants into thralls? Cause we have seen plant monsters that move alone, right?

The branded plants were bushes, we even see the same bushes outside of the branded areas, immobile.

@"Tyson.5160" said:Not really seeing the issue here. If Kralkatorrik could do this naturally why are we mentioning him branding the dead and then Taimi saying sounds like Zhaitan. More evidence of new abilities after absorbing dragon magic.

If all the Elder dragon could corrupt the dead, Zhaitan’s death sphere is useless and worthless, it means nothing.

It's being highlighted this way because it's the primary method for which to scream at us "Kralkatorrik at Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic!" without the characters actually knowing this (how could they? They weren't near Kralkatorrik when the others died).

Saying that Zhaitan's sphere should allow the corruption of corpses is like saying that Jormag's sphere of ice is what allows any Elder Dragon to corrupt ice, and that the sphere is pointless if any other Elder Dragon can corrupt ice.

And that's just silly.

The (first) spheres do not reflect what they can corrupt. They reflect how that corruption turns out.

The way I see Zhaitan’s power works is like a zombie apocalypse, living people can be turned into zombies, we see this happen like the good Corporal , the Bear Havoun (forgot spelling). The dead themselves are also raised, we see this with Zhaitan bolstering his ranks in the ark mission in Orr. I’m sure we can agree about this.

I suppose for the sake of this argument let’s say Kralkatorrik flew over a graveyard, which had a metal structure around it. Kralkatorrik is corrupting the ground the buildings, the dead bodies. Sure, Kralkatorrik could brand all these things, but the metal structure that surrounds the graveyard doesn’t come to life. The dead bodies could become branded but there would be no life to them. They were inanimate, dead things and would continue to be dead things even if they were covered in crystal. The difference would be that Zhaitan could take a inanimate dead body and reanimate it. This is what I believe is what the devs are trying to show here.

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@"Tyson.5160" said:The way I see Zhaitan’s power works is like a zombie apocalypse, living people can be turned into zombies, we see this happen like the good Corporal , the Bear Havoun (forgot spelling). The dead themselves are also raised, we see this with Zhaitan bolstering his ranks in the ark mission in Orr. I’m sure we can agree about this.

Kellach doesn't die though. He's corrupted while alive. Same with Rissa and the chicken I linked (as well as Klaes). We also see Sickened Basilisks which are corrupted but not dead and rotten - yet - as well.

Zhaitan corrupts the living and the dead, but has a focus on the dead because corpses were far more numerous and are easier to transfer to Orr. He also seems to have an easier time corrupting the dead. However, living or dead, and regardless of how long they were dead, all risen turn into a decayed, diseased, grey-skinned "zombie" (for all intents and purposes).

This is not like your typical plague-based zombie apocalypse, which does not hasten decay in those bitten making them rot while still alive, but rather is a plague that kills then animates, and the dead are never hastened in their rotting state - they simply decay at the same rate as normal corpses.

Sure, Kralkatorrik could brand all these things, but the metal structure that surrounds the graveyard doesn’t come to life.

Though as evident through the Shatterer's appearance, it likely could if Kralkatorrik wanted it to. The Shatterer is very obviously rock and air and nothing else - not a living being that was corrupted.

There is also an event where inanimate branded ore gathers together and becomes animated.

If Kralkatorrik could turn rocks into a dragon, and can animate clumps of rocks into a new elemental, why can he not turn metal into a branded, or a corpse into one? He's already turning the inanimate into the animate, and those two situations are no different on a fundamental level.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:If Kralkatorrik could turn rocks into a dragon, and can animate clumps of rocks into a new elemental, why can he not turn metal into a branded, or a corpse into one? He's already turning the inanimate into the animate, and those two situations are no different on a fundamental level.Usually in these kind of fantasy settings, any sort of processed material, such as refined and shaped metal, is unable to be manipulated in the same way raw elements are... because reasons.

We have seen from Primordus's destroyers, as well as the dragon shaped champions for Kralkatorik, Jormag, and Mordremoth, that all of them seem able to manipulate naturally raw elements like fire, rock, ice, and plants, and turn them into animate creatures. The only one I can't say for certain has this power is Zhaitan, since I don't recall him ever doing something similar off the top of my head, and his dragon shaped champions are likely made up of piles of corpses or something.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:The way I see Zhaitan’s power works is like a zombie apocalypse, living people can be turned into zombies, we see this happen like the good Corporal , the Bear Havoun (forgot spelling). The dead themselves are also raised, we see this with Zhaitan bolstering his ranks in the ark mission in Orr. I’m sure we can agree about this.

Kellach doesn't die though. He's corrupted while alive. Same with Rissa and the chicken I linked (as well as
). We also see
which are corrupted but not dead and rotten - yet - as well.

Zhaitan corrupts the living and the dead, but has a focus on the dead because corpses were far more numerous and are easier to transfer to Orr. He also seems to have an easier time corrupting the dead. However, living or dead, and regardless of how long they were dead, all risen turn into a decayed, diseased, grey-skinned "zombie" (for all intents and purposes).

This is not like your typical plague-based zombie apocalypse, which does not hasten decay in those bitten making them rot while still alive, but rather is a plague that kills then animates, and the dead are never hastened in their rotting state - they simply decay at the same rate as normal corpses.

Sure, Kralkatorrik could brand all these things, but the metal structure that surrounds the graveyard doesn’t come to life.

Though as evident through the Shatterer's appearance, it likely could if Kralkatorrik wanted it to. The Shatterer is very obviously rock and air and nothing else - not a living being that was corrupted.

There is also
where inanimate branded ore gathers together and becomes animated.

If Kralkatorrik could turn rocks into a dragon, and can animate clumps of rocks into a new elemental, why can he not turn metal into a branded, or a corpse into one? He's already turning the inanimate into the animate, and those two situations are no different on a fundamental level.

You bring up some good points with Kellach however he appears to be slowly corrupted. His skin looks off and then he eventually does turn in a Risen. Perhaps the corruption was acting slower with him, the Basilisks and Rissa. Proximity could be the reason. These examples are objects that seem to resonate Zhaitan’s power so the potency could not be as high and could explain why these entities are slowly corrupted.

I guess it depends if these are like same kind of rocks that become animated like earth elementals in Queensdale or near Ebonhawke. These suckers have already been made animated by something.

As for the Shatterer, it’s possible that Kralkattorik sired this dragon just as he did with Glint, as he looks very similar to Kralkatorrik himself, with the rock and purple energy.

To date, we haven’t seen Kralkatorrik take a metal structure base in Ascalon and turn it into a minion, nor have we seen him corrupt a corpse until after Zhaitan’s death, which they seem to go out of their way to show. PoF ending cinematic, Risen Thralls in ep 1 and the wyvern branding dead devourers in the Inquest lab in ep 2

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I don't see Zhaitan have a hive mind system.

Its minions weren't all connected, they needed to speak to each other to provide information. Whispers' Plan proved that as well. When we stole the light they didn't know. When we stole the ship the Risen didn't know until the Eye saw us. When Zhaitan dies, its minions still exist rather than lost control and attack each other.

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Well, in Forging the Pact, Trahearne states that Zhaitan gains knowledge from his minions.

Agent Zrii: How does the dragon even know about it? Zhaitan doesn't strike me as as much of a reader.Trahearne: Zhaitan knows everything its minions know. One of its corrupted servants, while alive or after death, must have seen the tome.

: My order headquarters? No! How could that be? How could Zhaitan even know...Avatar of the Tree: Those who have been corrupted reveal everything to Zhaitan. Nothing is secret, least of all those places where his enemies hide.

What isn’t stated is if Zhaitan loses that knowledge if this same minion has been destroyed. You could argue that he does since using an Eye of Zhaitan for example, gives the dragon additional sight and when killed, blinds him.

This could be a type of hive mind. It’s definitely some type of shared intelligence at least for Zhaitan. The individual minions may not have access to the knowledge, but Zhaitan does.

Mordremoth appeared to have a more in-depth and greater connection to his minions. Mordremoth appeared way more aware of things going around him.

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Usually in these kind of fantasy settings, any sort of processed material, such as refined and shaped metal, is unable to be manipulated in the same way raw elements are... because reasons.

The oddity here is that we see raw minerals, plant matter, and living flesh treated the exact same. Refined minerals and dead flesh shouldn't, by extent, have any reason to not be the same. Furthermore, all five cases result in being "Material A gets turned into Material B" we just never actively see the latter two become mobile minions - though, I will stress, this doesn't mean it doesn't happen. After all, outside of CoE, we don't see Primordus' corruption turn a living being into a destroyer.

On your other points: We do certainly see Zhaitan corrupting plants as there's quite a few hearts in Bloodtide Coast and Sparkfly Fen that include this, and our need to destroy them to prevent further spread of Zhaitan's corruption. These plants are all still living, but has the same sickly purple effect that Kellach does.

@Tyson.5160 said:You bring up some good points with Kellach however he appears to be slowly corrupted. His skin looks off and then he eventually does turn in a Risen. Perhaps the corruption was acting slower with him, the Basilisks and Rissa. Proximity could be the reason. These examples are objects that seem to resonate Zhaitan’s power so the potency could not be as high and could explain why these entities are slowly corrupted.

I guess it depends if these are like same kind of rocks that become animated like earth elementals in Queensdale or near Ebonhawke. These suckers have already been made animated by something.

As for the Shatterer, it’s possible that Kralkattorik sired this dragon just as he did with Glint, as he looks very similar to Kralkatorrik himself, with the rock and purple energy.

To date, we haven’t seen Kralkatorrik take a metal structure base in Ascalon and turn it into a minion, nor have we seen him corrupt a corpse until after Zhaitan’s death, which they seem to go out of their way to show. PoF ending cinematic, Risen Thralls in ep 1 and the wyvern branding dead devourers in the Inquest lab in ep 2

Kellach only takes a full-blown risen appearance in the Vigil path, however he never once dies in the process. Same goes for Klaes - he does become a risen, but he doesn't die before becoming such; the chicken Mr. Cluckers too. The point being, they never kill the subject, but they still corrupt and rot them.

The Shatterer is not sired. Unlike Glint, Vlast, Aurene and Kralkatorrik (at least before PoF) which all have flesh in their body, The Shatterer is literally hollow. Granted Kralkatorrik's new appearance is basically a giant hammerhead Shatterer now, but the books and our direct visuals of him in GW1 are different than this.

Just because they go out of their way to show, doesn't mean it was unheard of before. While it's clear that Kralkatorrik ate Zhaitan's magic, there's no reason to suggest that it was Zhaitan's magic which made making minions out of corpses possible - for all we can honestly tell, and given all other examples of corruption (including having some Icebrood with caved in faces implying corrupting corpses, or the Pale Tree using Ronan's village as templates for sylvari just as Blighting Trees used living and dead beings as templates for mordrem), Zhaitan's magic doesn't allow the corruption of corpses, but rather makes such things easier.

@"Slowpokeking.8720" said:I don't see Zhaitan have a hive mind system.

Its minions weren't all connected, they needed to speak to each other to provide information. Whispers' Plan proved that as well. When we stole the light they didn't know. When we stole the ship the Risen didn't know until the Eye saw us. When Zhaitan dies, its minions still exist rather than lost control and attack each other.

Avatar of the Tree: Those who have been corrupted reveal everything to Zhaitan. Nothing is secret, least of all those places where his enemies hide.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness#Back_in_the_Omphalos_Chamber

Agent Zrii: How does the dragon even know about it? Zhaitan doesn't strike me as as much of a reader.Trahearne: Zhaitan knows everything its minions know. One of its corrupted servants, while alive or after death, must have seen the tome.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forging_the_Pact#At_the_Rankor_Ruins

That is 100% a hive mind.

Mordremoth's hive mind seemed different, as he seemed capable of micromanaging telepathy to every individual minion in an entirely different fashion so as to "convince" the sylvari to join him. Whether he uttilized this same micromanaged telepathy with non-sylvari mordrem is unclear though.

Kralkatorrik's supposed new hive mind further seems different, as we see a shared spacial awareness between the two branded forgotten.

To use a diagram of the three draconic hive minds:

XmT52uN.png

Note that I say "tentative" because there are one or two events in Orr, as well as the ending of EoD, where individuals can "trick" minions into thinking a non-minion is a minion, however in all other cases, dragon minions immediately assault all non-minions without hesitation indicating more than mere visual cues.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Usually in these kind of fantasy settings, any sort of processed material, such as refined and shaped metal, is unable to be manipulated in the same way raw elements are... because reasons.

The oddity here is that we see raw minerals, plant matter, and living flesh treated the exact same. Refined minerals and dead flesh shouldn't, by extent, have any reason to not be the same. Furthermore, all five cases result in being "Material A gets turned into Material B" we just never actively see the latter two become mobile minions - though, I will stress, this doesn't mean it doesn't happen. After all, outside of CoE, we don't see Primordus' corruption turn a living being into a destroyer.

On your other points: We do certainly see Zhaitan corrupting plants as there's quite a few hearts in Bloodtide Coast and Sparkfly Fen that include this, and our need to destroy them to prevent further spread of Zhaitan's corruption. These plants are all still living, but has the same sickly purple effect that Kellach does.

@Tyson.5160 said:You bring up some good points with Kellach however he appears to be slowly corrupted. His skin looks off and then he eventually does turn in a Risen. Perhaps the corruption was acting slower with him, the Basilisks and Rissa. Proximity could be the reason. These examples are objects that seem to resonate Zhaitan’s power so the potency could not be as high and could explain why these entities are slowly corrupted.

I guess it depends if these are like same kind of rocks that become animated like earth elementals in Queensdale or near Ebonhawke. These suckers have already been made animated by something.

As for the Shatterer, it’s possible that Kralkattorik sired this dragon just as he did with Glint, as he looks very similar to Kralkatorrik himself, with the rock and purple energy.

To date, we haven’t seen Kralkatorrik take a metal structure base in Ascalon and turn it into a minion, nor have we seen him corrupt a corpse until after Zhaitan’s death, which they seem to go out of their way to show. PoF ending cinematic, Risen Thralls in ep 1 and the wyvern branding dead devourers in the Inquest lab in ep 2

Kellach only takes a full-blown risen appearance in the Vigil path, however he never once dies in the process. Same goes for Klaes - he does become a risen, but he doesn't die before becoming such; the chicken Mr. Cluckers too. The point being, they never kill the subject, but they still corrupt and rot them.

The Shatterer is not sired. Unlike Glint, Vlast, Aurene and Kralkatorrik (at least before PoF) which all have flesh in their body, The Shatterer is literally hollow. Granted Kralkatorrik's new appearance is basically a giant hammerhead Shatterer now, but the books and our direct visuals of him in GW1 are different than this.

Just because they go out of their way to show, doesn't mean it was unheard of before. While it's clear that Kralkatorrik ate Zhaitan's magic, there's no reason to suggest that it was Zhaitan's magic which made making minions out of corpses possible - for all we can honestly tell, and given all other examples of corruption (including having some Icebrood with caved in faces implying corrupting corpses, or the Pale Tree using Ronan's village as templates for sylvari just as Blighting Trees used living and dead beings as templates for mordrem), Zhaitan's magic doesn't allow the corruption of corpses, but rather makes such things easier.

@"Slowpokeking.8720" said:I don't see Zhaitan have a hive mind system.

Its minions weren't all connected, they needed to speak to each other to provide information. Whispers' Plan proved that as well. When we stole the light they didn't know. When we stole the ship the Risen didn't know until the Eye saw us. When Zhaitan dies, its minions still exist rather than lost control and attack each other.

Avatar of the Tree: Those who have been corrupted reveal everything to Zhaitan. Nothing is secret, least of all those places where his enemies hide.

Agent Zrii: How does the dragon even know about it? Zhaitan doesn't strike me as as much of a reader.Trahearne: Zhaitan knows everything its minions know. One of its corrupted servants, while alive or after death, must have seen the tome.

That is 100% a hive mind.

Mordremoth's hive mind seemed different, as he seemed capable of micromanaging telepathy to every individual minion in an entirely different fashion so as to "convince" the sylvari to join him. Whether he uttilized this same micromanaged telepathy with non-sylvari mordrem is unclear though.

Kralkatorrik's supposed new hive mind further seems different, as we see a shared spacial awareness between the two branded forgotten.

To use a diagram of the three draconic hive minds:

XmT52uN.png

Note that I say "tentative" because there are one or two events in Orr, as well as the ending of EoD, where individuals can "trick" minions into thinking a non-minion is a minion, however in all other cases, dragon minions immediately assault all non-minions without hesitation indicating more than mere visual cues.

No argument with Zhaitan corrupting living beings, clearly shows in the game. I’m just saying that the corruption could be a slower process due to these corrupted artifacts.

Regarding the Shatterer and Kralkatorrik, they look very similar now, even with having the gap holes and purple energy. Seeing as how big Kralkatorrik is his outer plating would still reflect the large mountain scape in gw1, without showing these holes. I’m also certain that they used an altered Shatterer for the ending cinematic of POF for the old purple menace. The difference between Glint, Aurene and Vlast is they are not corrupted which may explain the more fleshy look. Also I don’t think it stated if the Kral sired the Shatterer or not.

Again they are putting a lot effort to say hey look Kralkatorrik ate Zhaitan magic, look this Wyvern is branding dead devourers and making them branded. Why go through this effort if this was a natural ability that Kralkatorrik had. I don’t see logic here. They could of easily put a inquest researcher at this lab and said, “I thought only Zhaitan corrupted corpses... no Kralkatorrik and the other dragons possess this power too” or something along these lines. We don’t have that happen instead we get the this:

PA Announcer: The ability of Kralkatorrik's lieutenants to Brand the dead suggests many promising applications.PA Announcer: Keep up the good work! And remember: we care.Taimi: Branding the dead. Sounds like Zhaitan. More evidence of new abilities after absorbing dragon magic.

But let’s say that Kralkatorrik could do this naturally, what power is he gaining from Zhaitan again?

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@Tyson.5160 said:Regarding the Shatterer and Kralkatorrik, they look very similar now, even with having the gap holes and purple energy. Seeing as how big Kralkatorrik is his outer plating would still reflect the large mountain scape in gw1, without showing these holes. I’m also certain that they used an altered Shatterer for the ending cinematic of POF for the old purple menace. The difference between Glint, Aurene and Vlast is they are not corrupted which may explain the more fleshy look. Also I don’t think it stated if the Kral sired the Shatterer or not.

You're kind of missing the main thing. Scales. Skin. Flesh.

GW2 Kralkatorrik is rock, crystal, and air by appearance. But GW1 Kralkatorrik was silver-blue scales and shell-like hide. Even in EoD, he's described as having flesh. Much like Glint, Aurene, and Vlast.

That is a very, very big difference.

And Glint very much is corrupted. It's made point blank clear - the Forgotten ritual never changed her body back, it merely made her mind free.

As for The Shatterer being sired or not - when described, IIRC, it was that Kralkatorrik "created" the Shatterer. On top of that, The Shatterer is just one of dozens (I'm honestly disappointed we didn't fight another Shatterer in Path of Fire...).

@Tyson.5160 said:Again they are putting a lot effort to say hey look Kralkatorrik ate Zhaitan magic, look this Wyvern is branding dead devourers and making them branded. Why go through this effort if this was a natural ability that Kralkatorrik had. I don’t see logic here. They could of easily put a inquest researcher at this lab and said, “I thought only Zhaitan corrupted corpses... no Kralkatorrik and the other dragons possess this power too” or something along these lines. We don’t have that happen instead we get the this:

But let’s say that Kralkatorrik could do this naturally, what power is he gaining from Zhaitan again?

The point of their stressing this would undoubtably be to ensure the players know that Kralkatorrik ate Zhaitan's magic, since this is really the first time it's established in the game itself, and despite the likelihood of him being able to corrupt corpses from the get go.

I see it less of "Kralkatorrik can now corrupt corpses solely due to Zhaitan's magic" and more of "to show that Kralkatorrik ate Zhaitan's magic, we'll go the obvious route of corrupting corpses and having death shroud effects on new branded".

Just like to show that Primordus ate Zhaitan's magic, they tossed the death shroud effect on the Death-Touched destroyers, and added poison to their fire attacks.

@Tyson.5160 said:Showing the design of Shatterer and Kralkatorrik. Branded rock dogs are also very similar.

Branded Rock Dogs aren't similar in the least. While The Shatterer and Kralkatorrik's redesign are hollow, the Rock Dogs are - like all other branded - very much solid with crystalline innards.

@Tyson.5160 said:Perhaps we are going about this conversation the wrong way. Perhaps we should talking about what the Death Magic sphere entails and then go from there.

Going off of GW1 skills, death magic spells, outside of manipulation of corpses, has always been about the spread and manipulation of disease. But that's from a mortal viewpoint.

With Elder Dragons, as I said before, the first sphere always seems to reflect how their corruption takes form - the Elder Fire Dragon's corruption turns stuff into fire and lava, the Elder Ice Dragon's corruption turns stuff into ice, the Elder Plant Dragon's corruption spreads plants, the Elder Death Dragon's corruption rots and decays everything.

Beyond aesthetics and augmentations though, we don't see much unique to risen. Just as we see various icebrood and mordrem using regular skills but often with a icy or planty aesthetic to them, we see many risen using regular skills but with a more putrid appearance to them (e.g., water magic is green rather than blue, and sometimes applies poison).

With the destroyers, they never animated corpses, but their abilities gained a ton of poison effects, and their fire turned a more necromantic green too.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Regarding the Shatterer and Kralkatorrik, they look very similar now, even with having the gap holes and purple energy. Seeing as how big Kralkatorrik is his outer plating would still reflect the large mountain scape in gw1, without showing these holes. I’m also certain that they used an altered Shatterer for the ending cinematic of POF for the old purple menace. The difference between Glint, Aurene and Vlast is they are not corrupted which may explain the more fleshy look. Also I don’t think it stated if the Kral sired the Shatterer or not.

You're kind of missing the main thing. Scales. Skin. Flesh.

GW2 Kralkatorrik is rock, crystal, and air by appearance. GW1 Kralkatorrik was silver-blue scales and hard hide. Even in EoD, he's described as having flesh. Much like Glint, Aurene, and Vlast.

That is a very, very big difference.

And Glint very much
is
corrupted. It's made point blank clear - the Forgotten ritual never changed her body back, it merely made her mind free.

As for The Shatterer being sired or not - when described, IIRC, it was that Kralkatorrik "created" the Shatterer. On top of that, The Shatterer is just one of dozens (I'm honestly disappointed we didn't fight another Shatterer in Path of Fire...).

@Tyson.5160 said:Again they are putting a lot effort to say hey look Kralkatorrik ate Zhaitan magic, look this Wyvern is branding dead devourers and making them branded. Why go through this effort if this was a natural ability that Kralkatorrik had. I don’t see logic here. They could of easily put a inquest researcher at this lab and said, “I thought only Zhaitan corrupted corpses... no Kralkatorrik and the other dragons possess this power too” or something along these lines. We don’t have that happen instead we get the this:

But let’s say that Kralkatorrik could do this naturally, what power is he gaining from Zhaitan again?

The point of their stressing this would undoubtably be to ensure the players know that Kralkatorrik ate Zhaitan's magic, despite the likelihood of him being able to corrupt corpses from the get go.

I kinda smell a bit of a retcon then for Kralkatorrik, much like they did for Primordus. Which I guess, kinda makes everything a mute point as anything and everything can be changed at a whim for story or to make things look cool.

I suppose that Shatterer could be created, however this would make the creation of a new entity, this is vastly different then being able to resurrect a corpse. Unfortunately there is zero evidence for it, except that it might be possible. Sure and It might be possible that Kralkatorrik could make rainbow sherbet rain from the sky, however there is no evidence to support it.

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@Tyson.5160 said:I kinda smell a bit of a retcon then for Kralkatorrik, much like they did for Primordus. Which I guess, kinda makes everything a mute point as anything and everything can be changed at a whim for story or to make things look cool.

moot point*

And yeah, seems a retcon. But they still can go a new route that some folks have theorized: that as Elder Dragons gain more power, they become more like their corruption. This would explain why while hibernating both Primordus and Kralkatorrik looked like they had flesh and blood, but now they're fully elemental.

Would also explain why Mordremoth was fleshy while those two weren't. He just woke up, and hadn't changed into his corruption yet.

@Tyson.5160 said:I suppose that Shatterer could be created, however this would make the creation of a new entity, this is vastly different then being able to resurrect a corpse. Unfortunately there is zero evidence for it, except that it might be possible. Sure and It might be possible that Kralkatorrik could make rainbow sherbet rain from the sky, however there is no evidence to support it.

That feels like a massive false equivalent there. We see Kralktorrik turning rocks into minions elsewhere (some of the branded earth elementals are literal dug up ore that animated; in Ghosts of Ascalon, the ground itself becomes a giant branded). We also know from dev statements that whenever a Shatterer dies, a new one is made / promoted. Unless Kralkatorrik is popping out babies like rabbits, it's unlikely they're born from a male dragon.

http://web.archive.org/web/20100928201154/http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=368903&postcount=94

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Avatar of the Tree: Those who have been corrupted reveal everything to Zhaitan. Nothing is secret, least of all those places where his enemies hide.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness#Back_in_the_Omphalos_Chamber

Agent Zrii: How does the dragon even know about it? Zhaitan doesn't strike me as as much of a reader.Trahearne: Zhaitan knows everything its minions know. One of its corrupted servants, while alive or after death, must have seen the tome.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forging_the_Pact#At_the_Rankor_Ruins

That is 100% a hive mind.

None of this is hard canon, it's just view of these scholars. The fact showed the theory is wrong.

If Zhaitan knew what its minions knew, it would have warned its ship to not fall into our trap. The Risen didn't discover us until our ship is at the coast. And it was the Eye of Zhaitan.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I kinda smell a bit of a retcon then for Kralkatorrik, much like they did for Primordus. Which I guess, kinda makes everything a mute point as anything and everything can be changed at a whim for story or to make things look cool.

moot point*

And yeah, seems a retcon. But they still can go a new route that some folks have theorized: that as Elder Dragons gain more power, they become more like their corruption. This would explain why while hibernating both Primordus and Kralkatorrik looked like they had flesh and blood, but now they're fully elemental.

Would also explain why Mordremoth was fleshy while those two weren't. He just woke up, and hadn't changed into his corruption yet.

@Tyson.5160 said:I suppose that Shatterer could be created, however this would make the creation of a new entity, this is vastly different then being able to resurrect a corpse. Unfortunately there is zero evidence for it, except that it might be possible. Sure and It might be possible that Kralkatorrik could make rainbow sherbet rain from the sky, however there is no evidence to support it.

That feels like a massive false equivalent there. We see Kralktorrik turning rocks into minions elsewhere (some of the branded earth elementals are literal dug up ore that animated; in Ghosts of Ascalon, the ground itself becomes a giant branded). We also know from dev statements that whenever a Shatterer dies, a new one is made / promoted. Unless Kralkatorrik is popping out babies like rabbits, it's unlikely they're born from a male dragon.

To get back to my original point before I got super side tracked,was that there is no evidence to suggest that Kralkatorrik could create minions from the dead until after Zhaitan’s death. Only after his death do we see the dragon using corpses for minion production.

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@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Avatar of the Tree: Those who have been corrupted reveal everything to Zhaitan. Nothing is secret, least of all those places where his enemies hide.

Agent Zrii: How does the dragon even know about it? Zhaitan doesn't strike me as as much of a reader.Trahearne: Zhaitan knows everything its minions know. One of its corrupted servants, while alive or after death, must have seen the tome.

That is 100% a hive mind.

None of this is hard canon, it's just view of these scholars. The fact showed the theory is wrong.

If Zhaitan knew what its minions knew, it would have warned its ship to not fall into our trap. The Risen didn't discover us until our ship is at the coast. And it was the Eye of Zhaitan.

I think Zhaitan gaining knowledge from his minions is pretty evident from the personal story. Zhaitan seems to use the eyes as immediate surveillance and vision.

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@Tyson.5160 said:I think Zhaitan gaining knowledge from his minions is pretty evident from the personal story. Zhaitan seems to use the eyes as immediate surveillance and vision.

He didn't get the info from our plan. If he knew what its minions knew, why didn't he warn his ship not to fall to our trap and ask his fleet to bring down the deadship we took? Its minions will reveal what they knew to him, but they are not directly connected.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Would also explain why Mordremoth was fleshy while those two weren't. He just woke up, and hadn't changed into his corruption yet.That really wouldn't make sense. Mordremoth was specifically stated to BE his corruption, which was the giant vines and stuff growing all over the world. That is why we had to go into his mind and kill him there, because he really had no physical body in the traditional sense.

Zhaitan was the only one that was truly fleshy, but his corruption was death, and the undead, so even he was still, in some way, made up of his own corruption. It was just far more limited compared to the other dragon's more elemental corruptions.

I have also suspected this is how Primordus moves around. His destroyers are made out of lava, and I find it likely that he could turn himself into lava as well(as Mordremoth was plants, and Kralkatorik can turn himself into a sandstorm), explaining how he can move around without causing entire parts of the world the sink under the massive holes his huge body would create if he tired to move around as a solid being.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Would also explain why Mordremoth was fleshy while those two weren't. He just woke up, and hadn't changed into his corruption yet.That really wouldn't make sense. Mordremoth was specifically stated to BE his corruption, which was the giant vines and stuff growing all over the world. That is why we had to go into his mind and kill him there, because he really had no physical body in the traditional sense.

Zhaitan was the only one that was truly fleshy, but his corruption was death, and the undead, so even he was still, in some way, made up of his own corruption. It was just far more limited compared to the other dragon's more elemental corruptions.

I have also suspected this is how Primordus moves around. His destroyers are made out of lava, and I find it likely that he could turn himself into lava as well(as Mordremoth was plants, and Kralkatorik can turn himself into a sandstorm), explaining how he can move around without causing entire parts of the world the sink under the massive holes his huge body would create if he tired to move around as a solid being.

Mordremoth does have physical body. Otherwise it wouldn't die when we killed Trehearne's physical body.

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@Slowpokeking.8720 said:Mordremoth does have physical body. Otherwise it wouldn't die when we killed Trehearne's physical body.Uhh no, what you just said literally proves that Mordremoth was a being of mind not body. The fact that it could jump to Trehearne and take over his body was because it had no body of its own, and was a mental construction living in some plants.

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@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Avatar of the Tree: Those who have been corrupted reveal everything to Zhaitan. Nothing is secret, least of all those places where his enemies hide.

Agent Zrii: How does the dragon even know about it? Zhaitan doesn't strike me as as much of a reader.Trahearne: Zhaitan knows everything its minions know. One of its corrupted servants, while alive or after death, must have seen the tome.

That is 100% a hive mind.

None of this is hard canon, it's just view of these scholars. The fact showed the theory is wrong.

If Zhaitan knew what its minions knew, it would have warned its ship to not fall into our trap. The Risen didn't discover us until our ship is at the coast. And it was the Eye of Zhaitan.

The Pale Tree isn't a scholar.

But let's say she's just guessing - because despite there being literally no hint to her just guessing she's clearly not knowledgeable in the topic of Elder Dragon / dragon minion mentality. How do the risen know where the Chantry of Secrets is? Vigil Keep and Durmand Priory I can understand, but the Chantry of Secrets is, naturally, a well kept secret.

As to why Zhaitan wouldn't warn his minions... You seem to be forgetting the key aspect of the relationship between dragon and minion: the dragon sees its minions as ants, not worth protecting. The Elder Dragons don't care if their minions die by the hundreds. Jormag doesn't care the Sons of Svanir hunt down the Icebrood for sport and training. To quote Jeff Grubbs, their mentality is "oh look, the red ants are fighting the black ants".

Besides that, keep in mind that the minions we killed didn't know our plan. They just knew we were assaulting a lighthouse... then we assaulted some ships that got confused. After that, there were no minions to tell Zhaitan what we did with those ships - for all Zhaitan could know even with a Mordremoth-level of hive mentality, we left those ships there and they began drifting out.

@"Tyson.5160" said:To get back to my original point before I got super side tracked,was that there is no evidence to suggest that Kralkatorrik could create minions from the dead until after Zhaitan’s death. Only after his death do we see the dragon using corpses for minion production.

I ask this: why couldn't Kralkatorrik create minions out of corpses yet Jormag (per EoD and I'm pretty sure the quaggan PS) and Mordremoth (via Pale Tree, indirectly, per interview) could? Why could Kralkatorrik create minions out of random lumps of dirt, but not out of a body?

There's no real logical reason for it. It would simply be "just because" which is a pretty piss poor explanation tbh.

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:I think this has been a big problem so far.

A lot of the research "fact" about the dragons are from the NPCs' observation, thus they are NOT hard canon, just the info the NPC has gathered and could be easily proven wrong.

You're mistaking first person observations for unreliable narrator.

And in all honesty, a lot of the facts come from player observations (e.g., minion behavior) or developer comments, and are only supplemented by NPC observations. As of late, NPC observations have been contradicting of the former two, and it is the former two that I've been presenting more.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Would also explain why Mordremoth was fleshy while those two weren't. He just woke up, and hadn't changed into his corruption yet.That really wouldn't make sense. Mordremoth was specifically stated to BE his corruption, which was the giant vines and stuff growing all over the world. That is why we had to go into his mind and kill him there, because he really had no physical body in the traditional sense.

Zhaitan was the only one that was truly fleshy, but his corruption was death, and the undead, so even he was still, in some way, made up of his own corruption. It was just far more limited compared to the other dragon's more elemental corruptions.

I have also suspected this is how Primordus moves around. His destroyers are made out of lava, and I find it likely that he could turn himself into lava as well(as Mordremoth was plants, and Kralkatorik can turn himself into a sandstorm), explaining how he can move around without causing entire parts of the world the sink under the massive holes his huge body would create if he tired to move around as a solid being.@Slowpokeking.8720 said:Mordremoth does have physical body. Otherwise it wouldn't die when we killed Trehearne's physical body.Uhh no, what you just said literally proves that Mordremoth was a being of mind not body. The fact that it could jump to Trehearne and take over his body was because it had no body of its own, and was a mental construction living in some plants.

You seem to be misinterpreting "the ability to possess via mind transference" with "not having an original draconic body".

The Mouth of Mordremoth, despite its naming, was Mordremoth's physical body. In the heart Help the students of Vehtendi Academy, you can tell the cadets that Mordremoth died by "impaling its head on a tree". There's also an artist statement implying the Mordrem Spitfires were also part of Mordremoth's body.

The whole "Mordremoth is the jungle" was a misnomer. His domain of mind allowed him mass telepathy and, as we see during Hearts and Minds, allowed him to transfer his mind into a new body. He had to still reside within a body, but he could move bodies about. And the Mouth of Mordremoth was (part) of his original, physical, flesh and blood body.

Furthermore, given dialogue surrounding Dragon's Stand and Hearts and Minds, his body is killed three times. This would imply that Mordremoth would jump back to his original body after healing it somehow (or perhaps a Spitfire left unseen would grow into a new Mouth of Mordremoth? It's not very clear). Indicating that any mind transference could only ever be temporary (or he was very vane and wanted his own body over a new one).

Besides that, with what you said about "Zhaitan was the only one that was truly fleshy", I'm sorry but no:

Kralkatorrik is very obviously fleshy here.

. And The gum on Jormag's tooth is similarly obviously fleshy.
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