Elder Dragons(Spoilers)

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Of course, this is like comparing a 1 to a 2 on a scale of 20 for how much personality they have.This, we did get a bit more out of the Risen then the typical "you will all serve the X dragon!" spew that all the other dragon minions seem to have as the only things they can say. If they say anything at all that is.

[Tyson.5160]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:@Slowpokeking.8720 Did you really just duplicate a previous post with zero edits to it? Way to address my new points. /s

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:Zhaitan gave his minions a lot of freedom and memory compare to other dragons. They showed their former emotions more than others. I believe Zhaitan's goal was to use these ppl's former skills and intelligence to work for him rather than just a bunch of zombies. This might be the reason of why the Risen still pose a threat after Zhaitan was dead for 3 years.

His weakness might also be that. He could create many many champions with different specific tasks, but when they are destroyed, it backfires him more than other dragons.

I found Zhaitan minions had even less emotion then others, except destroyers, who seem not to be able to communicate.

@Tyson.5160 said:Probably because most of the minions were once sentient creatures.

“Death, good.”

“Surrender to the will of Zhaitan.”

Where is the intelligence and emotion again?

Nah, other than the Mordrem Guard, the risen definitely have the most personality to them among dragon minions. For icebrood and branded, any personality that exists is among the champions and lieutenants alone (with the exception of icebrood quaggan and buggy icebrood goliaths, no non-lieutenant/champion among icebrood and branded even have aggro quotes to say).

While all dragon minions (sans sylvari/mordrem guard) have an overarching lack of personality, the fact that even risen thralls

speak at all

shows that they have a tad bit more than the others.

Of course, this is like comparing a 1 to a 2 on a scale of 20 for how much personality they have.

Sorry the way that slowpoke was describing was something emotional impactful and actual intelligence.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

Also Zhaitan prefers formerly high rank individuals as his champion like the Eye of Zhaitan. All his champions(other than the dragons) are also sentient beings. His "kingdom" got a very strict structure.

[Tyson.5160]

@"Slowpokeking.8720" said:Also Zhaitan prefers formerly high rank individuals as his champion like the Eye of Zhaitan. All his champions(other than the dragons) are also sentient beings. His "kingdom" got a very strict structure.

Can’t argue with that.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Slowpokeking.8720" said:Also Zhaitan prefers formerly high rank individuals as his champion like the Eye of Zhaitan. All his champions(other than the dragons) are also sentient beings. His "kingdom" got a very strict structure.

Can’t argue with that.

He pretty much wanted to fully use ppl's former strength, knowledge and intelligence to serve him. Unlike other dragons mostly don't care that much, they just create or randomly pick individuals to be champions because all the power came from the dragon.

[Tyson.5160]

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:Also Zhaitan prefers formerly high rank individuals as his champion like the Eye of Zhaitan. All his champions(other than the dragons) are also sentient beings. His "kingdom" got a very strict structure.

Can’t argue with that.

He pretty much wanted to fully use ppl's former strength, knowledge and intelligence to serve him. Unlike other dragons mostly don't care that much, they just create or randomly pick individuals to be champions because all the power came from the dragon.

Zhaitan could be selective in his minions, probably to cripple his enemies. Gaining knowledge of the location Chantry of secrets by corrupting an order of whispers, gives Zhaitan that strategic edge, while other dragons appear to want to mass produce minions. Perhaps not Mordremoth as he appeared more calculating, the same would probably go for Jormag too.

[Tyson.5160]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

The Mouth of Mordremoth, despite its naming, was Mordremoth's physical body. In the heart Help the students of Vehtendi Academy, you can tell the cadets that Mordremoth died by "impaling its head on a tree". There's also an artist statement implying the Mordrem Spitfires were also part of Mordremoth's body.

Just to back up one of Konig’s points from previous regarding the mouth being Mordremoth physical body. The actual mouth of the creature is very similar looking to the Season 1 ending cinematic with the dragon’s roar. Also I forgot about this piece of dialogue from Chronicler Perry when you first zone into Dragon’s Stand.

Perry: Hail, Commander!

Commander: Chronicler, what are we doing here?

Perry: Mordremoth hides behind a horde of its minions. We're here to push through those obstacles and defeat the Elder Dragon.

Commander: How do we plan to do this?

Perry: We must fight through never-ending waves of Mordrem, bring down the spitfires to halt Mordrem production, and establish camps to protect our flanks...

Commander: Is that all?

Perry: Sorry—had to catch my breath. Then we must defeat the undying commanders and disable the blighting towers.

Commander: Anything else?

Perry: Yes. Almost forgot. Then we have to slay an Elder Dragon.

Commander: Sounds like we have our work cut out for us.

This pretty much describes the entire Meta, which includes fighting an Elder Dragon.Notice that Perry doesn’t say a champion of Mordremoth or a Lieutenant of Mordremoth. Perry advises that we will be fighting the Elder Dragon.

Then there’s the shadowy dragon inside Heart and Mind, which is a shadowy version of the mouth of Mordremoth. Even the avatar you fight in the instance shares the same artwork as the mouth.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Slowpokeking.8720" said:Also Zhaitan prefers formerly high rank individuals as his champion like the Eye of Zhaitan. All his champions(other than the dragons) are also sentient beings. His "kingdom" got a very strict structure.

All champions of every Elder Dragon are sentient beings. Whether they talk or not is another matter, but sentience and sapience is a mandatory aspect for champions and lieutenants.

Also, arguably the Eyes of Zhaitan is the counter to your first statement ironically enough. He did tend to put those in power in the very same positions of power, and created a hierarchy that mirrored a living kingdom. However, he turned all the kings and queens into mere (but powerful and smart) scouts. That's a major demotion if you ask me.

However, that is no support against the notion of Zhaitan having a hive mind, when we're told he does not only by NPCs but by developers. It may not be massive telepathy like Mordremoth, but it is a hive mind.

[Tyson.5160]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Slowpokeking.8720" said:Also Zhaitan prefers formerly high rank individuals as his champion like the Eye of Zhaitan. All his champions(other than the dragons) are also sentient beings. His "kingdom" got a very strict structure.

All champions of every Elder Dragon are sentient beings. Whether they talk or not is another matter, but sentience and sapience is a mandatory aspect for champions and lieutenants.

Also, arguably the Eyes of Zhaitan is the counter to your first statement ironically enough. He did tend to put those in power in the very same positions of power, and created a hierarchy that mirrored a living kingdom. However, he turned all the kings and queens into mere (but powerful and smart) scouts. That's a major demotion if you ask me.

However, that is no support against the notion of Zhaitan having a hive mind, when we're told he does not only by NPCs but by developers. It may not be massive telepathy like Mordremoth, but it is a hive mind.

Mordremoth’s telepathy seems much intimate, as he playing each piece like a chess game. Probably because of this he is also over confident. One thing that was unfortunate was that I was half expecting to see avatar’s of the Blighting tree act like corrupted sisters, but there wasn’t any evidence that they were even sentient.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:Also Zhaitan prefers formerly high rank individuals as his champion like the Eye of Zhaitan. All his champions(other than the dragons) are also sentient beings. His "kingdom" got a very strict structure.

Can’t argue with that.

He pretty much wanted to fully use ppl's former strength, knowledge and intelligence to serve him. Unlike other dragons mostly don't care that much, they just create or randomly pick individuals to be champions because all the power came from the dragon.

I'd argue that the others show at least as much care as Zhaitan. When Kralk corrupted the ogres, it was the chieftain who became his 'champion', not random ogre #35. Victurus, the only branded who speaks off the top of my head, was a charr officer who was well-regarded for his leadership. Mordremoth specifically singled out Logan and Zojja as progenitors of a new type of Mordrem, and likewise picked Faolain for the task of pursuing Caithe and the egg and guarding Trahearne. Trahearne himself got much more personal attention than any other sylvari we saw.

As for the other three, Bubbles is a complete enigma, Primordus avoids the living, and what we see of Jormag's forces are largely a result of who seeks him out, and not reflective of his own desires. If anything, he has the least communicative minions- besides those quaggans, I can't think of a single talking icebrood who doesn't seem to have been a Son beforehand.

[Tyson.5160]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:Also Zhaitan prefers formerly high rank individuals as his champion like the Eye of Zhaitan. All his champions(other than the dragons) are also sentient beings. His "kingdom" got a very strict structure.

Can’t argue with that.

He pretty much wanted to fully use ppl's former strength, knowledge and intelligence to serve him. Unlike other dragons mostly don't care that much, they just create or randomly pick individuals to be champions because all the power came from the dragon.

I'd argue that the others show at least as much care as Zhaitan. When Kralk corrupted the ogres, it was the chieftain who became his 'champion', not random ogre #35. Victurus, the only branded who speaks off the top of my head, was a charr officer who was well-regarded for his leadership. Mordremoth specifically singled out Logan and Zojja as progenitors of a new type of Mordrem, and likewise picked Faolain for the task of pursuing Caithe and the egg and guarding Trahearne. Trahearne himself got much more personal attention than any other sylvari we saw.

As for the other three, Bubbles is a complete enigma, Primordus avoids the living, and what we see of Jormag's forces are largely a result of who seeks him out, and not reflective of his own desires. If anything, he has the least communicative minions- besides those quaggans, I can't think of a single talking icebrood who doesn't seem to have been a Son beforehand.

Yeah I don’t think the destroyers talk at all. It seems Bubbles creates minions out of water, like Primordus creates destroyers from rock and fire.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:As for the other three, Bubbles is a complete enigma, Primordus avoids the living, and what we see of Jormag's forces are largely a result of who seeks him out, and not reflective of his own desires. If anything, he has the least communicative minions- besides those quaggans, I can't think of a single talking icebrood who doesn't seem to have been a Son beforehand.

To be fair though, about 90% of icebrood were Sons of Svanir before... And it's not like we're likely to get talking icebrood wolves, fish, spiders, griffons or elementals. So that would just leave the norn, quaggan, and kodan as sapient species that have been seen corrupted by Jormag. Trolls are rather in an unknown spot as there's literally one normal troll that has spoken to the players so it's hard to say if he's a norm or oddity among trolls.

But there is at least one talking icebrood kodan off the top of my head.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:All champions of every Elder Dragon are sentient beings. Whether they talk or not is another matter, but sentience and sapience is a mandatory aspect for champions and lieutenants.

Also, arguably the Eyes of Zhaitan is the counter to your first statement ironically enough. He did tend to put those in power in the very same positions of power, and created a hierarchy that mirrored a living kingdom. However, he turned all the kings and queens into mere (but powerful and smart) scouts. That's a major demotion if you ask me.

However, that is no support against the notion of Zhaitan having a hive mind, when we're told he does not only by NPCs but by developers. It may not be massive telepathy like Mordremoth, but it is a hive mind.

Icebeast? Dragonbeast? Not likely.Many of Jormag's champions in the storm events were simply icebrood beasts. Even the norns were turned into beast like forms.

Vinewrath? Octovines? Vinetooth? Wyvern pat/mat?

None of them seem like sentient beings at all.

Branded Wyvern? Not likely.

No, the Eyes were overseers and we saw them command less lieutenants.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:I'd argue that the others show at least as much care as Zhaitan. When Kralk corrupted the ogres, it was the chieftain who became his 'champion', not random ogre #35. Victurus, the only branded who speaks off the top of my head, was a charr officer who was well-regarded for his leadership. Mordremoth specifically singled out Logan and Zojja as progenitors of a new type of Mordrem, and likewise picked Faolain for the task of pursuing Caithe and the egg and guarding Trahearne. Trahearne himself got much more personal attention than any other sylvari we saw.

As for the other three, Bubbles is a complete enigma, Primordus avoids the living, and what we see of Jormag's forces are largely a result of who seeks him out, and not reflective of his own desires. If anything, he has the least communicative minions- besides those quaggans, I can't think of a single talking icebrood who doesn't seem to have been a Son beforehand.

Kralkatorrik doesn't care much like Zhaitan. He corrupted many human and charr soldiers but they don't build up weapons like the Risen did, they simply use their newly gained skills. Same with Mordremoth. The mordrem guards don't keep their former skills at all. Faolain is a good example as well. Before she was turned she was a powerful spellcaster who could create nightmare illusions, but after she was turned her skills are not much different than other vinetooth.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:As for the other three, Bubbles is a complete enigma, Primordus avoids the living, and what we see of Jormag's forces are largely a result of who seeks him out, and not reflective of his own desires. If anything, he has the least communicative minions- besides those quaggans, I can't think of a single talking icebrood who doesn't seem to have been a Son beforehand.

To be fair though, about 90% of icebrood were Sons of Svanir before.

That's kinda my point. Up north, where Jormag seems to have directed the majority of his attention, that hypothetically shouldn't be the case- not enough norn to go around. The Sons have been running interference on our view of what Jormag's core forces are actually like, similar to the way we'd be drawing different conclusions if the only Mordrem we'd encountered were the ones in the Silverwastes.

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:I'd argue that the others show at least as much care as Zhaitan. When Kralk corrupted the ogres, it was the chieftain who became his 'champion', not random ogre #35. Victurus, the only branded who speaks off the top of my head, was a charr officer who was well-regarded for his leadership. Mordremoth specifically singled out Logan and Zojja as progenitors of a new type of Mordrem, and likewise picked Faolain for the task of pursuing Caithe and the egg and guarding Trahearne. Trahearne himself got much more personal attention than any other sylvari we saw.

As for the other three, Bubbles is a complete enigma, Primordus avoids the living, and what we see of Jormag's forces are largely a result of who seeks him out, and not reflective of his own desires. If anything, he has the least communicative minions- besides those quaggans, I can't think of a single talking icebrood who doesn't seem to have been a Son beforehand.

Kralkatorrik doesn't care much like Zhaitan. He corrupted many human and charr soldiers but they don't build up weapons like the Risen did, they simply use their newly gained skills. Same with Mordremoth. The mordrem guards don't keep their former skills at all. Faolain is a good example as well. Before she was turned she was a powerful spellcaster who could create nightmare illusions, but after she was turned her skills are not much different than other vinetooth.

I wouldn't say that the risen build up weapons. The catapults and ships and towers all seem to be produced by Zhaitan's corruption, not by construction. In that sense, it's not far different than Jormag's ice turrets, or Mordremoth's vine cages and walls, or Kralkatorrik's bushes (or the Brandstorm itself, for that matter).

It is true that Zhaitan closely models such things along the lines of humanoid construction, to a degree that does appear to be unique, but I don't know if we can say that a massive upturned ribcage cradling a couple ragged wooden platforms is a result of harnessing Orrian knowledge and expertise.

As for the Mordrem Guard, they're specifically called out as retaining their former skills. Faolain was the exception there, not the rule. Yes, they have a more mordremy take on things, but that's exactly in line with what happened to Zhaitan's risen.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:I wouldn't say that the risen build up weapons. The catapults and ships and towers all seem to be produced by Zhaitan's corruption, not by construction. In that sense, it's not far different than Jormag's ice turrets, or Mordremoth's vine cages and walls, or Kralkatorrik's bushes (or the Brandstorm itself, for that matter).

It is true that Zhaitan closely models such things along the lines of humanoid construction, to a degree that does appear to be unique, but I don't know if we can say that a massive upturned ribcage cradling a couple ragged wooden platforms is a result of harnessing Orrian knowledge and expertise.

As for the Mordrem Guard, they're specifically called out as retaining their former skills. Faolain was the exception there, not the rule. Yes, they have a more mordremy take on things, but that's exactly in line with what happened to Zhaitan's risen.

It was obviously built by them and enhanced by Zhaitan's power, They even said about go back to Orr so it means they can fix the ship's damage. Why couldn't they build it? They got 100 years and knowledge from everywhere.

As for the Mordrem Guard.

" they retain all their previous intelligence"

Not former skills, otherwise we would have seen many many of them using their former spells against us like Zhaitan's mesmers proved how deadly they are. We don't see Mordrem Guard necromancer, mesmer or elementalists.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:I wouldn't say that the risen build up weapons. The catapults and ships and towers all seem to be produced by Zhaitan's corruption, not by construction. In that sense, it's not far different than Jormag's ice turrets, or Mordremoth's vine cages and walls, or Kralkatorrik's bushes (or the Brandstorm itself, for that matter).

It

is

true that Zhaitan closely models such things along the lines of humanoid construction, to a degree that does appear to be unique, but I don't know if we can say that a massive upturned ribcage cradling a couple ragged wooden platforms is a result of harnessing Orrian knowledge and expertise.

As for the Mordrem Guard,

they're specifically called out as retaining their former skills.

Faolain was the exception there, not the rule. Yes, they have a more mordremy take on things, but that's exactly in line with what happened to Zhaitan's risen.

It was obviously built by them and enhanced by Zhaitan's power, They even said about go back to Orr so it means they can fix the ship's damage. Why couldn't they build it? They got 100 years and knowledge from everywhere.

Built by them? The Dead Ships, depending on which model you mean, are either a moldering shipwreck or a few platforms of wood cradled with massive sweeps of bone- all of one piece, mind. There's nothing there to build.

As for the Mordrem Guard.

" they retain all their previous intelligence"

Not former skills, otherwise we would have seen many many of them using their former spells against us like Zhaitan's mesmers proved how deadly they are. We don't see Mordrem Guard necromancer, mesmer or elementalists.

"Because they include former Pact officers and Pale Reavers, they are quite skilled at combat..."

For that sentence to be sensical requires them to retain their combat skills. The lack of player skills on display is easily explained by ANet moving away from that for all of their expansion enemies, both in HoT and PoF. They wanted to provide fresh mechanics more interesting than their first batch. But, if you'd like to use the comparison- how many Pact sylvari do you see casting spells? Some elementalists in the Priory, perhaps, but that's it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:All champions of every Elder Dragon are sentient beings. Whether they talk or not is another matter, but sentience and sapience is a mandatory aspect for champions and lieutenants.

Also, arguably the Eyes of Zhaitan is the counter to your first statement ironically enough. He did tend to put those in power in the very same positions of power, and created a hierarchy that mirrored a living kingdom. However, he turned all the kings and queens into mere (but powerful and smart) scouts. That's a major demotion if you ask me.

However, that is no support against the notion of Zhaitan having a hive mind, when we're told he does not only by NPCs but by developers. It may not be massive telepathy like Mordremoth, but it is a hive mind.

Icebeast? Dragonbeast? Not likely.Many of Jormag's champions in the storm events were simply icebrood beasts. Even the norns were turned into beast like forms.

Vinewrath? Octovines? Vinetooth? Wyvern pat/mat?

None of them seem like sentient beings at all.

Branded Wyvern? Not likely.

No, the Eyes were overseers and we saw them command less lieutenants.

The Dragonspaawn from Edge of Destiny novel was definitely sapient, so would be many of the icebrood that were former Sons of Svanir - like Koda's Bane in HotW story, the three fought at the end of HotW explorable, the two metas in Wayfarer Foothills' final bosses. There's a handful of other obviously intelligent icebrood, like Torn Fur from HotW explorable, too.

The Great Destroyer and the Destroyer of Life are similarly obviously intelligent champions despite never speaking.

Among mordrem, while we never hear any non-formerly-sylvari speak, the Vinewrath does command all of the Silverwastes' forces, including the four legendaries, four breach champions, and the three vinewrath champions - and it coordinated the assuaults on the four forts as well as Camp Resolve. The Shadow of the Dragon also lead the attack on the Grove, specifically waiting until the Pale Tree and Pact Commander were most vulnerable. That's intelligence.

Intelligence is not measured by how much or how well one speaks.

And there's only one case where an Eye commands another - in the temple of Abaddon. Despite that the Eyes are outright called scouts. They may be intelligent scouts that can command other minions, but they're a far cry from the royalty they were.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:Built by them? The Dead Ships, depending on which model you mean, are either a moldering shipwreck or a few platforms of wood cradled with massive sweeps of bone- all of one piece, mind. There's nothing there to build.

Yes, the novel even said the ship took too much damage and got to go back to Orr. It's not like Zhaitan would love to do the job to fix a ship.

"Because they include former Pact officers and Pale Reavers, they are quite skilled at combat..."

For that sentence to be sensical requires them to retain their combat skills. The lack of player skills on display is easily explained by ANet moving away from that for all of their expansion enemies, both in HoT and PoF. They wanted to provide fresh mechanics more interesting than their first batch. But, if you'd like to use the comparison- how many Pact sylvari do you see casting spells? Some elementalists in the Priory, perhaps, but that's it.

It most likely means physical combat strength. If they retained their skills we would have seen them in the story, we saw how deadly and useful the mesmers are to Zhaitan even if not for direct combat, but no.

Many of them are casters. Even the marshal himself is a necromancer.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:The Dragonspaawn from Edge of Destiny novel was definitely sapient, so would be many of the icebrood that were former Sons of Svanir - like Koda's Bane in HotW story, the three fought at the end of HotW explorable, the two metas in Wayfarer Foothills' final bosses. There's a handful of other obviously intelligent icebrood, like Torn Fur from HotW explorable, too.

The Great Destroyer and the Destroyer of Life are similarly obviously intelligent champions despite never speaking.

Among mordrem, while we never hear any non-formerly-sylvari speak, the Vinewrath does command all of the Silverwastes' forces, including the four legendaries, four breach champions, and the three vinewrath champions - and it coordinated the assuaults on the four forts as well as Camp Resolve. The Shadow of the Dragon also lead the attack on the Grove, specifically waiting until the Pale Tree and Pact Commander were most vulnerable. That's intelligence.

Intelligence is not measured by how much or how well one speaks.

And there's only one case where an Eye commands another - in the temple of Abaddon. Despite that the Eyes are outright called scouts. They may be intelligent scouts that can command other minions, but they're a far cry from the royalty they were.

There are sapient ones, but many of them are not.

Vinewrath doesn't command, Mordremoth command them through the champions with a hivemind. Same with Shadow of the Dragon.

King Reza: Yes. We were chained to the dragon, corrupted into monsters that bore Zhaitan's vision and carried out its will. One by one, you have freed us.King Reza: I, the most powerful of all, was placed here to guard the source of Orr‘s magic. Yet, you have found a way. I am deeply grateful.

They are overseers and the most powerful one was to guard the source, that's also very important task.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:Built by them? The Dead Ships, depending on which model you mean, are either a moldering shipwreck or a few platforms of wood cradled with massive sweeps of bone- all of one piece, mind. There's nothing there to build.

Yes, the novel even said the ship took too much damage and got to go back to Orr. It's not like Zhaitan would love to do the job to fix a ship.

The novel also says that the thing keeping the Dead Ships afloat is a fleshy layer under the planks. That's something that'd be magiced back, not dealt with by dead shipwrights using hammers and nails.

Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

"Because they include former Pact officers and Pale Reavers, they are quite skilled at combat..."

For that sentence to be sensical requires them to retain their combat skills. The lack of player skills on display is easily explained by ANet moving away from that for

all

of their expansion enemies, both in HoT and PoF. They wanted to provide fresh mechanics more interesting than their first batch. But, if you'd like to use the comparison- how many Pact sylvari do you see casting spells? Some elementalists in the Priory, perhaps, but that's it.

It most likely means physical combat strength. If they retained their skills we would have seen them in the story, we saw how deadly and useful the mesmers are to Zhaitan even if not for direct combat, but no.

Many of them are casters. Even the marshal himself is a necromancer.

Right. Throw in Tegwen, and you have two. Two examples, two, out of how many?

So, if your argument is that there are obviously many sylvari spellcasters in the Pact- even though we never see them- doesn't that go the other way too? If Pact spellcasters exist without us seeing them, couldn't Mordrem spellcasters exist without us seeing them?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:Vinewrath doesn't command, Mordremoth command them through the champions with a hivemind. Same with Shadow of the Dragon.

Do you even have any evidence to suggest - let alone prove - this? Yes, Mordremoth does have mass telepathy with its minions and gives out orders, but it's not like Mordremoth is all seeing. His hive mind has only been shown to be communication, no visuals involved. Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing mordrem begging Mordremoth for reinforcements (such as during Torn from the Sky).

The Vinewrath, however, actually is stated to be the leading the forces in Silverwastes as well as making them. And the Shadow of the Dragon was similarly said to be leading forces.

Even if Mordremoth has mass telepathy, he still had lieutenants and champions command lesser minions and do the strategizing on the spot situations. Whether he realized it or not, Mordremoth knew the importance of delegating tasks.

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:King Reza: Yes. We were chained to the dragon, corrupted into monsters that bore Zhaitan's vision and carried out its will. One by one, you have freed us.King Reza: I, the most powerful of all, was placed here to guard the source of Orr‘s magic. Yet, you have found a way. I am deeply grateful.

They are overseers and the most powerful one was to guard the source, that's also very important task.

That's literally what any dragon lieutenant or champion does. Carry out their respective dragon's will.

Reza was the most powerful of the Eyes, but not the most powerful of champions - I believe that Blightghast and Tequatl all rate tougher than the Sovereign Eye, both mechanically and in lore.

[Tyson.5160]

@Tyson.5160 said:I’m more curious on Zhaitans shadow realm of magic.@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:We've not really seen any solid examples of that even among risen, TBH.

I’ve been thinking about Zhaitan’s Shadow magic sphere and find it odd, that none of the Risen other then a few thief type class use any type of shadow like ability. I do remember in what the eye behold mission where all the wraiths are invisible on the airship. That got me thinking to all the times that Risen minions just kinda appeared. For example when you are in the final mission of the personal story on the air ship about to fight the dragon champions and minions kinda appear with black smoke and energy. I think this happens again when you fight Zhaitan on the Glory of Tyria. I believed this may have happened a lot with the Risen, now that I think about it. Is this the Shadow magic sphere that Zhaitan was lord over?

Went back and had a view of those fights. There would be a large explosion of green poison like cloud and the Risen would teleport in with black energy.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

I wouldn't really consider much of that. A lot of mobs have some magical-looking spawn animation. For risen it's that puff of black and green (which are typical necromatic colors). Mordrem tend to rise out of the ground with coral-like grass popping around them, skelk, skritt, and dredge all dig out of the ground (even if they're not on dirt), etc.

[Tyson.5160]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:I wouldn't really consider much of that. A lot of mobs have some magical-looking spawn animation. For risen it's that puff of black and green (which are typical necromatic colors). Mordrem tend to rise out of the ground with coral-like grass popping around them, skelk, skritt, and dredge all dig out of the ground (even if they're not on dirt), etc.

Yeah, it’s the only thing that most of the Risen do. Like a strange teleporting. That’s really the only thing seems be like a Shadow like magic. I suppose the Risen also could have dug out of the ground or just fall from the sky like bandits, but instead they do that teleport function.