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How to fix current defensive gameplay.


Riba.3271
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  • Increase cata health by 50%.
  • Reduce shield gen bubble duration and radius by 30%.
  • Reduce fortified wall/gate health by 25%.
  • Reduce claim buff stats by 50%, including movement speed. Magic find, wxp and supply can stay.
  • Reduce duration of EWP to 20 seconds. Invulnerable fortifications to 40 seconds.
  • Reduce arrow cart damage by 20%.
  • Make dolyaks carry 10 less supply.
  • Increase secured upgrade to 25 dolyaks, reinforced upgrade to 50 and fortified to 100. 25% increase in total.
  • Make packed dollies not count as 2 for upgrade (because they're superior than speedy in every way atm)

Balance done.

Any other ideas?

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@Eramonster.2718 said:Have to consider if it's worth the effort and time needed to get a structure to T3.

You can get t3 keep (alpine bay, garri) in 40 minutes currently with tactics + speeding packed dollies which is completely broken. Increasing it to 1 hour 10 minutes (not required speeding dollies, just putting tactics in) is much more reasonable timeAlso it makes it so that everything doesnt upgrade to t2 within 40 minutes, but 50 minutes, without anyone putting any tactics in.

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Why the would you ever want to increase cata hp?

90% of cata use is faceplanted at a wall. An increase in hp would only make it stronger in melee range.

Pretty much all "we need to fix siege boooo" points can be condensed to two lines that improves ranged assaults against T2 and T3 by using the weapon already in game kitten built for this sole purpose:

  • Reduce treb cost to 60/80
  • Increase treb damage vs reinforced by 50% and vs fortified by 100%
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@"Dawdler.8521" said:Why the would you ever want to increase cata hp?

90% of cata use is faceplanted at a wall. An increase in hp would only make it stronger in melee range.

Pretty much all "we need to fix siege boooo" points can be condensed to two lines that improves ranged assaults against T2 and T3 by using the weapon already in game kitten built for this sole purpose:

  • Reduce treb cost to 60/80
  • Increase treb damage vs reinforced by 50% and vs fortified by 100%

Trebs are countered by shield generators. 1 person can build superior shield gen, normal shield gen and guild shield gen and have 3 bubbles. You can spread shots but it doesn't change the fact that the wall health is too much and 1 gen user can shut down multiple trebs. Thats why the radius and duration decrease on shield gen bubbles because they currently counter most of cata spots, most long range treb spots and omegas on gates.

The nerf will also prevent the offensive gameplay of just placing ton of rams with ton of shield gens and then taking gate down while being immune to all siege. But basically it will balance out the shield gens being overpowered siege for everything.

Now that skilled roaming group could build trebs at stargrove and force enemy to push them to fight instead of hiding behind shield gens.

The cata health increase is because they literally die instantly now if 4 people jump on them. literally everyone is just using shield gens to protect their siege, and its almost always rams because catas die so fast.

The wall/gate health reduction on t3 objectives is to make it so that even smaller groups can cap them, currently with 8 catas it takes like 5 minutes to breach bay outer and inner wall. Which is way too long. Imagine like 5 people with 2 catas, are they really going to go for it when there's 0 chance they cap it during daytime? Also considering shield gens would be getting nerfed, attackers lose lot of attacking power.

The claim buff reduction is to give the attackers more equal ground. Defenders can already have 5 acs ready with tactics like ewp + chilling fog. Not to forget about holding the choke (attackers have to push). Currently you just have to go in with 60 players to defend against 60 and just stay alive long enough and you practically win it because increased stats.

Now for you, it seems that keeps are some kind of empty places and its always 50 people assaulting 10 people with trebs. No, EU is active 12 hours a day and theres always 40-50 man blobs. They just dont go for T3 objectives unless they can rush in lord room with ton of golems because otherwise you wipe cuz claim buff (biggest offender), siege, respawn, portals, spellbreaker bubbles killing a few players(3rd biggest offender) and tactics (2nd biggest offender) which is not exactly healthy.

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@Threather.9354 said:Trebs are countered by shield generators.Only because trebs are fucking expensive at the moment while shield generators are cheap as dirt. With cheaper trebs and the damage boost I suggested, a normal treb would cost as much as a superior cata and do 50% more damage on T3 than what a twice as expensive superior treb does today. More siege = more shots at target = gaps between shield gen bubbles, the opportunity to wear down other siege (mortars, acs, canons) without draining more than one camp to 0 and so on.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

Trebs are countered by shield generators.
Only because trebs are kitten expensive at the moment while shield generators are cheap as dirt. With cheaper trebs and the damage boost I suggested, a normal treb would cost as much as a superior cata and do 50% more damage on T3 than what a twice as expensive superior treb does today. More siege = more shots at target = gaps between shield gen bubbles, the opportunity to wear down other siege (mortars, acs, canons) without draining more than one camp to 0 and so on.

there is no gap with 3+ gens thobut last i checked i could only use 2 by myself, guild and superior did share a cd.

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@MUDse.7623 said:

Trebs are countered by shield generators.
Only because trebs are kitten expensive at the moment while shield generators are cheap as dirt. With cheaper trebs and the damage boost I suggested, a normal treb would cost as much as a superior cata and do 50% more damage on T3 than what a twice as expensive superior treb does today. More siege = more shots at target = gaps between shield gen bubbles, the opportunity to wear down other siege (mortars, acs, canons) without draining more than one camp to 0 and so on.

there is no gap with 3+ gens thobut last i checked i could only use 2 by myself, guild and superior did share a cd.3 sheild gens cannot cover an entire T3 keep.

The reason we cannot built trebs like catas today (ie literally against any wall) remains the fact that they are fucking expensive and thus prohibited either to 30+ zergs or specific locations (like sw tower or behind the camp against bay) in order to defend and construct such a high value siege - yet at the same time, it is indeed made void by something as simple as a sheild gen (or an empty camp for that matter).

Cheaper cost would mean 3 people could build a normal treb anywhere and it wouldnt be the end of the world if the enemy indeed built 3 sheild gens just to cover that one treb. Just like we can do with catas today, but with actual effective range to open up so many real long range siege choices it boggles the mind.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

Trebs are countered by shield generators.
Only because trebs are kitten expensive at the moment while shield generators are cheap as dirt. With cheaper trebs and the damage boost I suggested, a normal treb would cost as much as a superior cata and do 50% more damage on T3 than what a twice as expensive superior treb does today. More siege = more shots at target = gaps between shield gen bubbles, the opportunity to wear down other siege (mortars, acs, canons) without draining more than one camp to 0 and so on.

there is no gap with 3+ gens thobut last i checked i could only use 2 by myself, guild and superior did share a cd.3 sheild gens cannot cover an entire T3 keep.

The reason we cannot built trebs like catas today (ie literally against any wall) remains the fact that they are
kitten expensive
and thus prohibited either to 30+ zergs or specific locations (like sw tower or behind the camp against bay) in order to defend and construct such a high value siege - yet at the same time, it is indeed made void by something as simple as a sheild gen (or an empty camp for that matter).

Cheaper cost would mean 3 people could build a normal treb anywhere and it wouldnt be the end of the world if the enemy indeed built 3 sheild gens just to cover that one treb. Just like we can do with catas today, but with
actual effective range
to open up so many real long range siege choices it boggles the mind.

tho if those 3 people split up to build mutiple trebs, then the one can just jump out and kill em one by one. and while you may only cover a certain area of the keep walls, the treb if build on high range will also only hit a few walls.with your changes i think zergs will just build trebs if they going through a wall melee. on more range they will use trebs for t3 and cata for t0-t2. even with lower supply cost i dont think people use more maxrange trebs then now. because the locations where you can use that good are rather limited and easy to cover with pre build gens. but it would increase the power of SMC, that is probably were most the trebs used to open structures are build.

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@MUDse.7623 said:tho if those 3 people split up to build mutiple trebs, then the one can just jump out and kill em one by one.What's wrong with this? I thought the entire point of these threads was to get people out of their structures to fight. I'll gladly jump off a wall to engage someone 1 on 1. I'm going to sit back and use defensive siege if it's 1 on 3.

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@Shining One.1635 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:tho if those 3 people split up to build mutiple trebs, then the one can just jump out and kill em one by one.What's wrong with this? I thought the entire point of these threads was to get people out of their structures to fight. I'll gladly jump off a wall to engage someone 1 on 1. I'm going to sit back and use defensive siege if it's 1 on 3.

nothing wrong with that, just many here expect when they stand 50 infront of the keep that the 10 will jump out and fight instead of using AC. so i just wanted to point out that if you split up to give those 10 a chance , you might die. altho you got the superior blobskills

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Or and this is a big benefit of the doubt OR, but perhaps OP is single mindedly thinking from a havoc team/small man/ small server attack pov. Not thinking about the flip side to the suggestions, that small team defense is just as disadvantaged when faced with map blob attackers and double teaming servers despite the current buffs / upgrade requirements and quote unquote advantages that all tactics give.

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Ultimately waiting for the the main balance update first, but I'll give this a go.

@"Threather.9354" said:

  • Increase cata health by 50%.I haven't found much of a need for this. Cata's can more often than not, be placed in a strategic location/locations making them harder to be hit anyways. Also they have https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Siege_Bubble available to the player at rank 5 catapult mastery. Which can be used like -> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ForceDome(tier_5), though obviously weaker and rightfully so. The skill can also can be rotated between cata's/players or even shield generators well enough; to provide good or even great protection to all around the cata's.

  • Reduce shield gen bubble duration and radius by 30%.I think a little reduction is fine/fair, though I think this is a bit too much. I was thinking more like... duration - 2 sec's max and radius - 20%. Assuming whomever are maxed in the mastery. Reason is cause I rather not see something over nerfed to where it hardly has any value anymore.

  • Reduce fortified wall/gate health by 25%.Wall no. Gate Yes.Reason is I see people rarely go for Gates (especially small man groups) unless they are a big blob maybe or unless they have to. Though most of the time they don't as there are more Walls than Gates over all and walls can be safely Treb'd or Cata'd. In comparison Gate's you have to risk being in closer range to cannons and oil mainly. More guards in the way with CC. Just closer to the enemy tower in general. If an enemy blob come's. They can jump on you or have a better chance at surprising you from within their tower. So yea just more risky in general. Lastly, you can often hit 2 walls with 1 Treb or Cata at the same time. Creating more need for supply. They will have to drain more into the Walls than just the one gate to Keep both the walls up. Making for an easier comeback if things go sour.

  • Reduce claim buff stats by 50%, including movement speed. Magic find, wxp and supply can stay.Sure.

  • Reduce duration of EWP to 20 seconds. Invulnerable fortifications to 40 seconds.Ok.

Any other ideas?Only thing I can think of atm is...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fire_Hollowed_Gravel I would like to see something better done to this skill. It's so rarely used by anyone that has any decent experience in WvW. Maybe add some Cripple and Vulnerability to the skill or have it Slow a little, Idk. It Just feels way too much of a filler skill with no real value.

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I agree with nerfing objective claim buff, many groups will retreat to just outside a claimed objective whenever they encounter an enemy open-field, purely for the advantage of the buff. If you're so bad at WvW that you need to add 100 points to all of everyone in your groups' stats every time you have to fight even numbers then you should just stay in PvE.

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In relation to nerfing claim buffs, how about we poll those guild members that leveled scribe, gathered and spent gold on materials and sacraficed time and energy to level their guilds in order to get those buffs? I think most would have a different opinion on this matter.

It's like spending 80k on a fully loaded sportscar and having the repo guy come and get it and leave you with a 30k minivan, not because you didnt pay, but because your neighbor had to walk to work for 2 months.

Anyone that started that guild buff journey did so with the understanding that claiming an objective with max aura and buffs gave their team certain benefits, and just because some find those benefits unfair and others may seemingly abuse it for whatever reason, it doesn't change the fact that alot of players worked really hard for it, and changing it (even in the slightest) may cause those players to think twice about working as hard for things in the future.

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@Whiteout.1975 said:Ultimately waiting for the the main balance update first, but I'll give this a go.

@"Threather.9354" said:
  • Increase cata health by 50%.I haven't found much of a need for this. Cata's can more often than not, be placed in a
    strategic
    location/locations making them harder to be hit anyways. Also they have
    available to the player at rank 5 catapult mastery. Which can be used like ->
    , though obviously weaker and rightfully so. The skill can also can be rotated between cata's/players or even shield generators well enough; to provide good or even great protection to all around the cata's.
  • Reduce shield gen bubble duration and radius by 30%.I think a little reduction is fine/fair, though I think this is a bit too much. I was thinking more like... duration - 2 sec's max and radius - 20%. Assuming whomever are maxed in the mastery. Reason is cause I rather not see something over nerfed to where it hardly has any value anymore.

I think the main problem with catas is that enemy can just stealth or portal on them and kill them instantly with the powercreep we got. Also 2 acs can literally kill them in a few seconds. Health increase is to counter that. In exchange they could make trebs, ballistas and mortars deal 50% more damage to the catapults.

Yea, main thing with the shield generators would be to reduce the fact that 2 gens can keep up perma bubble. Just some reduction to radius (to stop them from blocking treb/cata fire and duration is enough.

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@"Miko.4158" said:don't reduce dollies by ten. ever try to rebuild ur corner outnumbered?

Well, the thing is that the current upgrade system is a problem when you have a small group capping things. You can go for t3 keep and by the done you're done if you fail even once, everything other enemy had on their home bl and EB will be T2 just by them getting the camps.

The idea of 25% upgrade duration is to make it so that it is actually worth the time to reset upgraded objectives rather than just go for T1 and T2 easy caps. Especially for larger groups. It is fun for smaller group to defend T3 objectives against larger groups, while larger group doesn't want to ktrain empty "superfast almost T2" towers which is optimal action with the current fast upgrading system.

It was already possible for smaller groups to defend before HoT, now they have shield gens, ALWAYS keep with full of supply at start and tactics to work with. I think nerfing the upgrade speed a bit is just warranted.

So upgraded objectives and actively upgrading will matter more. You can still defend easily once you get enough coverage. And it will be harder for enemy to upgrade your home bl/eb corner when they heavily outnumber you.

Isn't it just annoying that when you upgrade objective to T3, there is 0 enemy willing to attack it for multiple days while it is fun to defend the camps against enemy while it is upgrading? Or that everytime you wake up, there is T3 keep from enemy on home bl just because no1 played for an hour?

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It takes hours for anything to hit T2, unless camp tactics are used and the yaks are uncontested. If camp tactics are in play, prioritize those. If not, you can fail to cap something else half a dozen times before the other side of the map nears T2.

Here's a graph of how long things take to upgrade to T3 on the borderlands. http://puu.sh/zJEOF/d96128b782.png

Reaching T2 takes just under half of that time.

Also, shield gens are easily used offensively to ensure that defenders can't hit your siege without fielding their own zerg.

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