Shocked at how neutered Condi Engineer is. (PVP)

[Chaith.8256]

Title, you have virtually no viable ways to kill anything.

Came back after 3-4 months and went through all the builds in PvP over a day, easily concluded that no combination of Pistols, Flamethrower, Bomb Kit, Grenades, Tool Kit, or Firearms traits & glassy amulets has enough punch to threaten anything.

Before the blanket condi nerfs, you could counter specific builds with infrequent condi removal (Pre-survival Druid, Power Revenant) by bursting with 8 burns (Incendiary Ammunition & Incendiary Powder). This was mediocre for a 40-50 second cooldown but at the time it was respectable.

You can do respectable power damage on any Engi build setup you can think of, really.

Suggestions to increase the potency of condition damage in PvP:

- Pistol mainhand needs to get a lot better, fast. It's been shatterstone-buffed periodically but needs to have a surge in how many bleed & poison stacks it can apply over time with the #1 and #2 respectively. Fragmentation Shot needs to apply bleed to all struck targets for Sanguine Array/Chemical Rounds synergy. Being classified as an explosion would be a good start as well.
- Flamethrower #2 becomes more user friendly. Needs terrain collision enabled, or ideally have a phoenix-esque pathing to a ground target, minus the coming-back part. Napalm could go down to a 20s cooldown from 30s, this is often not a relevant skill so when somebody enters the downed state it needs to be available to pressure.- Bomb skills #2-5, increase the fuse time by .5 seconds, reduce the cast time to .25 seconds or even instant skills to allow the Engineer to get the kit poppin' and get shut down less while you're inside 240 radius counter-pressure. Possibly add a red flash on the fuse when it's dropped to increase the telegraph for the longer fuse time.- Expert Examination, this Scrapper condi trait that's largely been forgotten, if it were changed from the outdated 'stuns' and 'dazes' criteria to 'disables' it could be a versatile option for applying cover conditions, and synergy with Flamethrower #3, Shield #4, Big Ol' Bomb, Gadgets & Turrets.

Seems the next patch has really nothing in mind beyond reducing Glue Shot cooldown by 5s and Poison Dart Volley by 2s, that's IMO not nearly enough down that path.

[Vagrant.7206]

I addressed some of these in my older thread, but yeah, I agree with you for the most part. The last nerf to condition damage completely neutered any chance condineers have at spike condi damage, and eliminated any threat they might have had, period. While I don't think relying on one skill is healthy, it's the sad truth that it was the death knell for condi engineer in PvP/WvW.

The problem is we neither have the frequent reapplication rates a condi thief does, nor the number of cover conditions that a necro/scourge does. We have no talents or abilities to increase our condi damage output, and we have no "spikeable" condi abilities. Everything is a slow ramp, which doesn't work well in PvP due to the way condi cleanse functions in the first place.

This used to be ok back when people didn't feel the need to stack their bar with cleanses and stunbreaks, but now it's virtually impossible to land anything for a serious period of time.

Seems the next patch has really nothing in mind beyond reducing Glue Shot cooldown by 5s and Poison Dart Volley by 2s, that's IMO not nearly enough down that path.

Since you've been gone, it's become patently obvious nobody on the balance team has ever tried to play condi engineer in PvP. The changes they want to implement do nothing to actually make condi engineer remotely viable.

For the pistol skills, I'd recommend the following to bring them up to a passable level:

• Frag shot should pierce targets (I miss that old trait), and be considered an explosion. Additionally, it shouldn't have lower damage than every other auto out there, and should actually fire at its stated activation time (1/2 a second) instead of its current activation time (0.8275 seconds)
• Poison dart volley should pierce targets and should not have ANY randomness as to where the projectiles are going. This is utterly ridiculous in this age of powercreep. It should have a shorter cast time as well.
• Static shot should probably be unblockable, add an extra bounce, and apply torment as well.
• Blowtorch is one of the most "ok" pistol skills out there. It probably needs a buff in terms of condi application, but it's the closest to alright. Maybe add a blind to it.
• Glue shot needs to apply slow as well as cripple.

[David.5974]

Condi engi is really dead in pvp. I was shocked why devs reduce CD on glue shot (meaby they expect hybrid holo S/P?) Okay but why poison dart volley? We don't have any solid condi aa, okay we can live with this we have kits, but even with triple kit and full glass you can't kill anyone. Look at scourge - corupting boons with extra hp, apply condis in packs. Chrono apply toons of condis in blink of the eye while evading every attack.

Even in pve condi engi is not thing anymore. So , why we have condi traits/skills if they are not viable? I think that every class have now viable or meta condi option (I am not only sure about guard, thief and ele).

So solution: don't play condi sadly, ride on tide of hololo... And scrapper is at bad state too

[LilBiM.3581]

Yeah, condition Engineer got hit by a train in the recent 'great condi nerf'. Sad thing is that the Condi Engineer was already bleeding out since HoT.. I guess it's good to finally put it out of it's misery. It's arguably better than being forced to watch it shamble about.

[Ivantreil.3092]

@LilBiM.3581 said:Yeah, condition Engineer got hit by a train in the recent 'great condi nerf'. Sad thing is that the Condi Engineer was already bleeding out since HoT.. I guess it's good to finally put it out of it's misery. It's arguably better than being forced to watch it shamble about.

Remove that satement, now! Condi Engi was my life in raids, i succeed the whole HoT era with it, from wing 1 to 4, power holo will never achieve such satisfactory levels of gameplay not even for a mile.

[Chaith.8256]

@Ivantreil.3092 said:

@LilBiM.3581 said:Yeah, condition Engineer got hit by a train in the recent 'great condi nerf'. Sad thing is that the Condi Engineer was already bleeding out since HoT.. I guess it's good to finally put it out of it's misery. It's arguably better than being forced to watch it shamble about.

Remove that satement, now! Condi Engi was my life in raids, i succeed the whole HoT era with it, from wing 1 to 4, power holo will never achieve such satisfactory levels of gameplay not even for a mile.

PvP m8

[Ivantreil.3092]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Ivantreil.3092 said:

@LilBiM.3581 said:Yeah, condition Engineer got hit by a train in the recent 'great condi nerf'. Sad thing is that the Condi Engineer was already bleeding out since HoT.. I guess it's good to finally put it out of it's misery. It's arguably better than being forced to watch it shamble about.

Remove that satement, now! Condi Engi was my life in raids, i succeed the whole HoT era with it, from wing 1 to 4, power holo will never achieve such satisfactory levels of gameplay not even for a mile.

PvP m8

Was at least playable during the season's 2 - 5, did reach legit good leagues with it, even modified it swapping tool kit for reactive lenses, i cant imagine doing that and expecting to be fine now.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Ivantreil.3092 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Ivantreil.3092 said:

@"LilBiM.3581" said:Yeah, condition Engineer got hit by a train in the recent 'great condi nerf'. Sad thing is that the Condi Engineer was already bleeding out since HoT.. I guess it's good to finally put it out of it's misery. It's arguably better than being forced to watch it shamble about.

Remove that satement, now! Condi Engi was my life in raids, i succeed the whole HoT era with it, from wing 1 to 4, power holo will never achieve such satisfactory levels of gameplay not even for a mile.

PvP m8

Was at least playable during the season's 2 - 5, did reach legit good leagues with it, even modified it swapping tool kit for reactive lenses, i cant imagine doing that and expecting to be fine now.

But even then, it wasn't a good build. Necros singlehandedly countered it, and anybody with decent condi cleanse or dodge skills could render it moot. I played it from time to time during the HoT days, and it was just an "ok" build. The best chances I had with it were spiking all my burns at once along with a static shot as cover.

[zoopop.5630]

core engi = not so viable compared due to the Pof drop from other elites being way to powerfulcondi engi= not viable at allScrapper = bugged/glitch and most trait lines don't work properly at all wont be viable till its fixed upHolo = best viable / meta elite for PvP(with up coming nerfs it might be low tier overall compared to other classes)

banking on the scrapper fixes to bring engi into a solid spot again but after the nerfs theirs no reason to really play holo if Power ele/rev/thief and mesmer can ALL do better dps on single target while provide much more pressure then a holo going to be able to overall while also still being able to sustain themselves with either mobility or stealth's.

[coro.3176]

It used to be playable. It wasn't 'good' - there were a number of builds it couldn't touch due to the amount of cleanse / resistance they packed, but it was playable. Currently, with the amount of condi it puts out and the amount of cleanse other builds run, more builds are in that 'untouchable' category than not. It's laughably bad. You can land all your skills and opponents just shrug it off like it's nothing.

IMO, the best way to fix it would be reduced condi cleanse across the board. You know how they nerfed https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Alchemical_Tinctures? Do that for some other classes' cleanse traits. Normalize cleanse across classes to something like ~2-3 condi cleanse per 20 (tie it to heal skills?) and preferably in a build-agnostic way.

[Ario.8964]

1 being an explosion and hitting all targets would be a fantastic change and 2 not being random would be fantastic (it'd be nice if it functioned like a thief's unload where the shots are very quick and actually focus one target rather than throwing random projectiles everywhere). I agree with these changes, condi engi needs them and it's not likely to break anything currently being used so it's getting my stamp of approval.

[Coolguy.8702]

Not sure if you were out longer but condi engi been shit tier since HoT came out

[Anthony.3207]

Condi engineer doesn't feel too bad. The way I play in wvw is use trailblazer gear and keep apply condition until you burn through the enemies 3 or 4 cleanses. Then after that - you start to see damage. Condi needs tankiness other wise you'll never Outlast the cleanses. On and expertise too. Expertise makes a huge difference.

I haven't tried spvp but I think condition engineer would be dead in spvp. You need toughness and vitality with condition and expertise to out last your enemy

It's more of a sustain fight these days. No more burst. And useless outside 1v1

That's my experience.

[Chaith.8256]

@"Coolguy.8702" said:Not sure if you were out longer but condi engi been kitten tier since HoT came out

Up until the winter condi nerf patch, that thing you say in each Engi related thread applies here: "L2P Engi". The build options were respectable before, you could carry by counter-pick roasting Druids and Revenants after HoT launch quite easily.

As for now, not even "L2P Engi" is relevant, you're meming if you play condi Engi in PvP now, sad. Now that condi Engi is just a very slow and steady condi applicator, I'd say it calls for small buffs across the board to condi Engi.

[Coolguy.8702]

@"Chaith.8256" said:

Up until the winter condi nerf patch, that thing you say in each Engi related thread applies here: "L2P Engi". The build options were respectable before, you could carry by counter-pick roasting Druids and Revenants after HoT launch quite easily.

As for now, not even "L2P Engi" is relevant, you're meming if you play condi Engi in PvP now, sad. Now that condi Engi is just a very slow and steady condi applicator, I'd say it calls for small buffs across the board to condi Engi.

Huh? Please elaborate,. Condi engi has never "roasted" druids before either

Yea condi engi could use some buffs, but cover condis will have to be nerfed since we can apply almost as much condis as a scourge can and ours hits much harder since it doesnt rely on the enemy moving for max dps

[Vagrant.7206]

@Coolguy.8702 said:

@"Chaith.8256" said:

Up until the winter condi nerf patch, that thing you say in each Engi related thread applies here: "L2P Engi". The build options were respectable before, you could carry by counter-pick roasting Druids and Revenants after HoT launch quite easily.

As for now, not even "L2P Engi" is relevant, you're meming if you play condi Engi in PvP now, sad. Now that condi Engi is just a very slow and steady condi applicator, I'd say it calls for small buffs across the board to condi Engi.

Huh? Please elaborate,. Condi engi has never "roasted" druids before either

Yea condi engi could use some buffs, but cover condis will have to be nerfed since we can apply almost as much condis as a scourge can and ours hits much harder since it doesnt rely on the enemy moving for max dps

Do you even play the same game the rest of us do? Scourges can output nearly every condi in the game from their corruption, let alone the 5 or 6 they put out naturally.

Engineers can put out small doses of most condis, but in much lower concentrations and durations, and much more slowly than a scourge.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said:

@"Chaith.8256" said:

Up until the winter condi nerf patch, that thing you say in each Engi related thread applies here: "L2P Engi". The build options were respectable before, you could carry by counter-pick roasting Druids and Revenants after HoT launch quite easily.

As for now, not even "L2P Engi" is relevant, you're meming if you play condi Engi in PvP now, sad. Now that condi Engi is just a very slow and steady condi applicator, I'd say it calls for small buffs across the board to condi Engi.

Huh? Please elaborate,. Condi engi has never "roasted" druids before either

Yea condi engi could use some buffs, but cover condis will have to be nerfed since we can apply almost as much condis as a scourge can and ours hits much harder since it doesnt rely on the enemy moving for max dps

Do you even play the same game the rest of us do? Scourges can output nearly every condi in the game from their corruption, let alone the 5 or 6 they put out naturally.

Engineers can put out small doses of most condis, but in much lower concentrations and durations, and much more slowly than a scourge.Blowtorch isnt so much a small dose since its a skill that can kill a player if its not cleansed... but still, yes its a matter of condi overload. Necro just womits out condi and can easily hide its dmg. All other condi classes has 2-3 condis they can dump reliably.

[Coolguy.8702]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

Do you even play the same game the rest of us do? Scourges can output nearly every condi in the game from their corruption, let alone the 5 or 6 they put out naturally.

Engineers can put out small doses of most condis, but in much lower concentrations and durations, and much more slowly than a scourge.

Well that your fault for fighting a scourge with one of the worst classes at dueling it (meta holosmith gets screwed by its mechanics) scourges rarely if ever apply more than 5 because I actually know how to dodge those skills and time my cleanse, and condi engi can easily output 5-7 condis themselves with pistolsand grenade kit.

Like I said condi engi for sure is in a bad place and needs some buffs, but i wouldn’t want it becoming another faceroll condi build like scourge or the old mirage build like you clearly seem to want

[Vagrant.7206]

@Coolguy.8702 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

Do you even play the same game the rest of us do? Scourges can output nearly every condi in the game from their corruption, let alone the 5 or 6 they put out naturally.

Engineers can put out small doses of most condis, but in much lower concentrations and durations, and much more slowly than a scourge.

Well that your fault for fighting a scourge with one of the worst classes at dueling it (meta holosmith gets screwed by its mechanics) scourges rarely if ever apply more than 5 because I actually know how to dodge those skills and time my cleanse, and condi engi can easily output 5-7 condis themselves with pistolsand grenade kit.

1. I try to avoid dueling scourges as a holo generally. That said, the majority of the scourges in PvP are bad players who don't know what they're doing.
2. Scourges generally apply the following conditions pretty liberally: Bleed, Poison, Torment, Burning, Cripple, Weakness, and Chill. With fear thrown in as a decayed cherry on top. These on top of whatever they corrupt.
3. Condi engi pistols apply: Bleed, poison, confusion, blind, burning, cripple and immob. The difference is the rate at which we apply these and the cover conditions in between. See, for a condi engi with pistols to go full rotation takes about 5-6 seconds to pull it all of, assuming no interruptions or cleanses in the meantime. Scourge can output their conditions in about 2-3 seconds, and at equal or greater number of stacks.

@Coolguy.8702 said:Like I said condi engi for sure is in a bad place and needs some buffs, but i wouldn’t want it becoming another faceroll condi build like scourge or the old mirage build like you clearly seem to want

Was it EVER a faceroll condi build? I mean come on, no condi engi build has ever been faceroll easy. At least in the past it was fair and somewhat spikey, if countered super easily by plague signet (which btw, is still one of the reasons few other classes have meta condi builds in competitive game modes).

I can't picture a scenario in which condi engi is ever a faceroll easy build unless it was ludicrously overpowered. The sheer mechanics of how we apply condis don't favor faceroll-easy, unlike scourge with instant casts through CC.

[MrForz.1953]

The ease and frequence of application has always been the major flaw in condition engi compared to... to well, to whatever goes on these days that starts with S- and ends with -courge. Condi Engi has been one of the few builds I felt done right in PvP, you were aiming to reap the rewards of well placed conditions back in a time cleansing wasn't dispensed like candy. Stronger condi specs have seen the day, and classes and specs have appeared, or have been modified to potentially counteract those frequent and easy applications, and this is how Condi Engi was left in the dust.

To buff Condi Engi might just add more fuel to the fire, to nerf the stronger condi specs as well as the cleansing potential would probably be too big of a change, so we're all at an impasse.

[Ario.8964]

@Coolguy.8702 said:

@"Chaith.8256" said:

Up until the winter condi nerf patch, that thing you say in each Engi related thread applies here: "L2P Engi". The build options were respectable before, you could carry by counter-pick roasting Druids and Revenants after HoT launch quite easily.

As for now, not even "L2P Engi" is relevant, you're meming if you play condi Engi in PvP now, sad. Now that condi Engi is just a very slow and steady condi applicator, I'd say it calls for small buffs across the board to condi Engi.

Huh? Please elaborate,. Condi engi has never "roasted" druids before either

Yea condi engi could use some buffs, but cover condis will have to be nerfed since we can apply almost as much condis as a scourge can and ours hits much harder since it doesnt rely on the enemy moving for max dps

When druid was reliant on shouts and their only condi clear was cele avatar form yes condi engi would roast them. You auto'd them until they CA to clear condi then you bombed them and /laugh as they ran around unable to stop the damage and eventually died.

[PierPiero.9142]

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