Necro scourge heal : questions about it's viability and acceptation

[Nimon.7840]

@"Knox.8962" said:Scourge Support is a wildly misunderstood creature, and is frequently the target of scorn. I wanted to clear up some misconceptions and lay out the case for "Heavy Support Scourge".

What does it do:

Scourge is an excellent Area Healer, with great condi-clear, reasonable DPS (For a healer), and second-to-none revive capability. It makes any other healer more effective by allowing them to heal the people who need it more effectively. It also is very effective at providing heals "across groups" in the squad due to the unique nature of barrier and also the Shades themselves.

What it does NOT do:

Scourge has really terrible capability to heal A person. Everything you do is effectively large scale heal over time. You have a few tools to handle burst healing, but once those tools are spent, you pretty much need additional heals from the target being healed, or some other support provider.

This one is exactly the reason, why scourge healer isnt good

" you pretty much need additional heals from the target veing healed, or some other support provider"

So you are giving up a dps spot for a second healer in your group. That healer can also heal the group alone, so the scourge healer gets useless and its better to bring a dps instead.

[StillSeijiro.8756]

If people arent doing a speed run and arent good enough second healer is always good and scourge makes an ideal second healer for it ( again pls do not bring 2 druids...my head hurts looking at it).

Not all runs its going to be 1 healer, ive been to a raid run the druid doesnt even give might stack let alone keep the party alive , he was so horrible ( u seem to nitpick situation like this so im going to do the same ;) see what u and i did there?)

Like i said in higher fractal scourge healers keep the group alive better than any healer in the game right now cant be denied that fact so saying scourge healer useless is so far off ( but ok lets give out another nitpick example that made ANY class useless insert useless examples ;) see what i did there?)

We were able to clear raids/fractals just fine with a scourge healer( but ok lets imagine, we actually failed all our runs according to u we are useless impossible to clear it rite? ;) )

[Nimon.7840]

@StillSeijiro.8756 said:If people arent doing a speed run and arent good enough second healer is always good and scourge makes an ideal second healer for it ( again pls do not bring 2 druids...my head hurts looking at it).

Not all runs its going to be 1 healer, ive been to a raid run the druid doesnt even give might stack let alone keep the party alive , he was so horrible ( u seem to nitpick situation like this so im going to do the same ;) see what u and i did there?)

Like i said in higher fractal scourge healers keep the group alive better than any healer in the game right now cant be denied that fact so saying scourge healer useless is so far off ( but ok lets give out another nitpick example that made ANY class useless insert useless examples ;) see what i did there?)

We were able to clear raids/fractals just fine with a scourge healer( but ok lets imagine, we actually failed all our runs according to u we are useless impossible to clear it rite? ;) )

You arent understanding:In a group of five players you would need one additional heal. So scourge + something

In raids, scourge isnt enough to heal 10 people. He can already needs help for 5 players. So you will need 2 extra healers in raids, which is wasting one dps slot.

So: if you are a good group, you wont be taking a scourge heal. You will be taking 1 druid and thats it.

More casuals will play druid + lets say ele (yes because 2 druids is stupid at most encounters)

And bad groups wont play that necro either because even if he would be the best player in the world, you cannot foresee all the dmg the group will take

Example: haudoken of matthias can easily be barriered.But what about: someone runs randomly in front of desmina and takes a huge hit. You cant foresee everything.So lets say this guy is at 3k/11k health. It will take at least 8k difference = (900transfusion+300regeneration ) x y seconds

So y= 6 seconds.It will take 6 seconds to heal him back up, but he might be stepping randomly in front of desmina again, and take another hit.

Every other healer will just be pressing 2 buttons and this guy will be back to full.

[StillSeijiro.8756]

My head hurts....u need 2 xtra healers to just support scourge healing itself?Did u even read the data given on how hes doing good at healing the raid party itself?Did u even take barrier into account of that stupid situation u put at? 6k/4k/2k barrier ontop of his health? less healing needed there.I think u suffer from selective reading ( but ok lets end with scourge cant heal at all its useless )

[Henry.5713]

@StillSeijiro.8756 said:If people arent doing a speed run and arent good enough second healer is always good and scourge makes an ideal second healer for it ( again pls do not bring 2 druids...my head hurts looking at it).

Not all runs its going to be 1 healer, ive been to a raid run the druid doesnt even give might stack let alone keep the party alive , he was so horrible ( u seem to nitpick situation like this so im going to do the same ;) see what u and i did there?)

Like i said in higher fractal scourge healers keep the group alive better than any healer in the game right now cant be denied that fact so saying scourge healer useless is so far off ( but ok lets give out another nitpick example that made ANY class useless insert useless examples ;) see what i did there?)

We were able to clear raids/fractals just fine with a scourge healer( but ok lets imagine, we actually failed all our runs according to u we are useless impossible to clear it rite? ;) )

You do more to harm this build than anything that was said here. We get it... it is your favorite. Calling claims obvious facts, trying to use bad players playing a META build as a benchmark for the quality of the build, your subjective point of view and smug attitude manage to convey the picture quite efficiently. Be thankful there are people like Knox who are able to explain their point well and without being delusional.

[StillSeijiro.8756]

Delusional? which part was it delusional , i never said it will beat/replace druids ( duh druid is broken as hell) i just said it can be a good 2nd healer instead of people bringing 2 druids , heck anything but 2 druids pls.

The bad example is just an ironic/funny way of saying how he is giving bad examples and assumptions of the class itself.Yes i am thankful hes really good at giving a better picture and explaining it well, so what do u contribute/come here for? :o

[Capicorp.1537]

I used to play support scourge with full harrier running dagger/torch + staff, mostly just on sloth and VG for condi cleanse, pull fails, and do no greens. It definitely works as a second healer for average groups on fights where you can guarantee life force generation and can solo heal if the druid dies. In competent groups barrier sometimes prevents the druid from getting CA. It does the most damage of all supports if you run with one offensive stat. It's a good build if you want to run it, but I've stopped playing scourge completely ever since anet took the fun out of shades.

[Knox.8962]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@"Knox.8962" said:Scourge Support is a wildly misunderstood creature, and is frequently the target of scorn. I wanted to clear up some misconceptions and lay out the case for "Heavy Support Scourge".

What does it do:

Scourge is an excellent Area Healer, with great condi-clear, reasonable DPS (For a healer), and second-to-none revive capability. It makes any other healer more effective by allowing them to heal the people who need it more effectively. It also is very effective at providing heals "across groups" in the squad due to the unique nature of barrier and also the Shades themselves.

What it does NOT do:

Scourge has really terrible capability to heal

A

person. Everything you do is effectively large scale heal over time. You have a few tools to handle burst healing, but once those tools are spent, you pretty much need additional heals from the target being healed, or some other support provider.

This one is exactly the reason, why scourge healer isnt good

" you pretty much need additional heals from the target veing healed, or some other support provider"

So you are giving up a dps spot for a second healer in your group. That healer can also heal the group alone, so the scourge healer gets useless and its better to bring a dps instead.

In raid groups with 2 healers, I have never done less than 65% of the overall group healing with this build. You don't run this with 2 druids. You run it with 1 druid, just like you would use a tempest healer.

I rarely play fractals, but I suspect that this is more than enough healing to manage a fractal group.

[Anchoku.8142]

The real question is, "Why did Necro get a health-related group buff?" It is not like it was needed before PoF. There are plenty of other group buff options.

[Nimon.7840]

@Knox.8962 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Knox.8962 said:Scourge Support is a wildly misunderstood creature, and is frequently the target of scorn. I wanted to clear up some misconceptions and lay out the case for "Heavy Support Scourge".

What does it do:

Scourge is an excellent Area Healer, with great condi-clear, reasonable DPS (For a healer), and second-to-none revive capability. It makes any other healer more effective by allowing them to heal the people who need it more effectively. It also is very effective at providing heals "across groups" in the squad due to the unique nature of barrier and also the Shades themselves.

What it does NOT do:

Scourge has really terrible capability to heal

A

person. Everything you do is effectively large scale heal over time. You have a few tools to handle burst healing, but once those tools are spent, you pretty much need additional heals from the target being healed, or some other support provider.

This one is exactly the reason, why scourge healer isnt good

" you pretty much need additional heals from the target veing healed, or some other support provider"

So you are giving up a dps spot for a second healer in your group. That healer can also heal the group alone, so the scourge healer gets useless and its better to bring a dps instead.

In raid groups with 2 healers, I have never done less than 65% of the overall group healing with this build. You don't run this with 2 druids. You run it with 1 druid, just like you would use a tempest healer.

I rarely play fractals, but I suspect that this is more than enough healing to manage a fractal group.

For a fractal group, a harrier chrono is enough.And scourge heal doesnt do that much more healing than harrier chrono.

Well play what you want. But dont tell people, that scourge heal is pretty good.Its only good, and all other healers in the game are better. They can either do

1. More hp/s
2. Give way more buffs (defensive and offensive)
3. Have way better burstheals
4. Also have ways of dmg mitigation

[StillSeijiro.8756]

Wow from a person who made an insulting comparison scourge healer to a warrior shout healer , now its even better to a harrier chrono.

1. Are u able to read the data the hp/s included the barrier gives way more than than what chrono can pump
2. Duh its chrono of course it does give more buff, its what its made for and scourge isnt for that( other healers are obsolete with the presence of chrono giving all the buffs needed in the first place)
3. Barrier are burst heals, they give a lot of overheals and last for quite a while for your hp to reach full by the time it disappears.
4. ways of mitigation?...err barrier?

Go bring that so called harrier chrono to the golem room and bring some1 with you (activate the highest environmental damage) , if the person cant even survive for even more than 2 minutes atleast its useless, guess who can? scourge healer , so saying it cant even heal more than harrier chrono is absolute bull and i would appreciate u not spreading lies from your butt hole.

[Catchyfx.5768]

Why boons, you have already Chrono for that right? I Think Its amazing and thank you for this huge post about healing necro. Lets JUST try new things. I believe it must be Fun to play this build.

[derd.6413]

the heal has it's use on a support scourge

scourge healer is 'good' as a secondary healer if your party goes downstate alot with pretty good CC. it's pretty niche and could use a buff but it isn't shout warrior useless.

[StillSeijiro.8756]

Exactly, thank you for pointing that out, its far from useless.Being able to keep the party alive is the priority of a healer , and scourge healer fit this criteria ( sure it doesnt pump boons like OP druid but its not meant to be main healer because of druid dominating healer role, heck no other healer could )

Stop comparing it to a chrono harrier , thats not a healer and stop pretending it is.They have no burst heals at all, long cooldowns on wells ( wells have to END to even pulse the heal )not to mention puny aoe, so how are u going to heal periodical damage? with only regen?.( Pssstt shades are spammable/low cooldown/charges of 3 and transfusion have 600 aoe uptime is permenant with alacrity and traited vital persistance )

Are u going to waste a well with boons ( alacrity/quickness ) on a person who got knocked back just to heal him ( gotta wait 3 sec lulz to get the heal pulse ) or place it on everyone stacking on boss to give more dps ( and heal everyone stacked up there too)?What's next, are u going to start channeling mantra to heal ( again gotta finish over 2sec of channeling lulz ) where u cant do anything else to heal ( dodging will put it into a brief cooldown and restart all over again while invoking shades can be done even while stunned ).

I dont get why with the strong hate/ignorant about barrier

[Nimon.7840]

@StillSeijiro.8756 said:Wow from a person who made an insulting comparison scourge healer to a warrior shout healer , now its even better to a harrier chrono.

1. Are u able to read the data the hp/s included the barrier gives way more than than what chrono can pump
2. Duh its chrono of course it does give more buff, its what its made for and scourge isnt for that( other healers are obsolete with the presence of chrono giving all the buffs needed in the first place)
3. Barrier are burst heals, they give a lot of overheals and last for quite a while for your hp to reach full by the time it disappears.
4. ways of mitigation?...err barrier?

Go bring that so called harrier chrono to the golem room and bring some1 with you (activate the highest environmental damage) , if the person cant even survive for even more than 2 minutes atleast its useless, guess who can? scourge healer , so saying it cant even heal more than harrier chrono is absolute bull and i would appreciate u not spreading lies from your butt hole.

Ele can. And rev can.I just tested it right after the february balance patch. Maybe not with best gear. But it still did very poorly.

You cannot count barrier as hp/s. If you do so, you will need to count block as hp/s as well. With 1 block = highest possible hit in gw2So maybe 35k?So one block gives possible 35k health. So giard healer would be the most op healer in the game and can even pre-heal

But you will call me stupid now.But the same goes for scourge.

If you still think that its pretty good:Take a complete gw2-newby into the raid, and try to keep him alive. If you can manage to do this with 3 newbys (take someone with you that applies protection all the time, but he isnt allowed to heal or give blocks)And none of them go down, then make a video of it and show me.Dont tell these newbys the mechanics before that would be cheating.So if you manage to do this, then we might talk again

I dont say heal necro is complete trash. And i actually would like to play some healthing. But its not anywhere near the other healers. You will have a way harder time to keep everyone up all the time.

And dont tell me: but its good at rezzing. If you need to rezz, you failed as healer. Your job is to keep everyone alive.

[StillSeijiro.8756]

Why cant i count barrier as hp/s? what logic makes u cant? because it goes away after 5sec? ( barriers have value )Did u forget by the time its gone u can keep stacking another set of barrier and u got other heals active( regen/vamp/transfusion/minor barrier if needed)

Thats a load of crap u cant even say block ( u cant calculate block value ) like that, it blocks 1 dmg - 35k its a 1 hit thing u know , i know it , everyone knows it ( im curious why u even mention highest dmg and not lowest and single sneeze to make it poof away ).

I wish i can make a video to prove what im talking about but my potato pc is barely playing the game with low specs, and the only pugs that would usually take me are only training raids and they are considered newbie ( they dont really care about speed clearing either) and i did clear some of them with me as a second healer and the number of newbies are sometimes even more than 3 people.

Again i never denied that tempest/rev works its just u are denying scourge healers here.I dont mind if we can get together and do a raid run to test it for yourself since u are adamant about it, u know my ign we can set it up.

A little note here yer forgetting that scourge is the only class that can give barrier to other people, the barrier are there to cushion the blow somewhat a pseudoprotection, just imagine u have protection AND barrier at the same time that would be an amazing damage mitigation

Something just hit me...u keep claiming druid alone is enough for heals but now paired with a scourge healer (u keep claiming its inferior to any of the healers) there wont be enough heals?Chrono alrdy provide the boons you need , druid alrdy give the additional stuff u need, to have scourge to solidify the party isnt a bad idea for people who are running 2 healers. So what is your argument here? not enough heals in this setup?Are u going to keep repeating the same thing over and over again eventho its a second healer ? ( definitely enough heals )

im confused, what are u trying to convey here? We never said it will be the main healer but somehow you are pressing on the wrong facts and issues.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@StillSeijiro.8756 said:That's not true at all , the only reason druid is sought after because its broken ( Over powered) in the first place.

Might be. And why? Because it has the most (offensive) party buffs

But talking about viability of scourge healers , yes its actually very good if your party is getting hit a lot because it offers no healer can do which is barrier.

No its not. Better take a guard heal, that can dish out aegis. And aegis block the dmg entirely, instead of just a small portion.

What is there to heal when your party takes no damage with barrier up?

Yeah aegis ftw.

Half of your healing is just barrier and keeping up those scholar runes up hence more dps.You can even get might stack up if u build it right.

But not for 10 people.

I main scourge healer in fractals(t4) and raid and its even possible to solo heal if the druid died , been there done that.

No its not if you are running with pugs. Oh wait. They wont even take you with them.

So saying scourge cant even heal enough is absurd...i would appreciate if u actually play a scourge healer or partied with a good one to comment on something like this...

I did. It was pretty bad. I played it myself.

Just dont take vampiric pressence its actually garbage for heals(to me).

Its almost the same value than life from death. And VP even adds a pretty small dmg buff. (Yeah i was using lfd as well)

I prefer taking Life from death to have that 5k burst heal when needed

So you know like 5 seconds before you need the heal, that your allies will take so much dmg in 5 seconds, that its worth. Its just a nice addition.

and life transfusion heals 9.9k+ over 9 seconds with 12 second cooldown (9sec with alacrity uptime aka

permanent

1.1k+ heal every sec over 600 aoe).

Well. Guard and rev and ele do the same thing. And they dont even have to do anything for that. They heal, just because they are there.

Its almost not possible to spam f3-5, even if you take dagger/focus +staff. You will run out of lifeforce pretty fast.

The build uses up a lot of life force but u gain them easily when u use staff and other utilities that give them back , i even got signet of undeath for the life force regen because it helps in the long run.

To summ things up:You are not able to have a 100% barrier uptime with a barrier value of 3k or higher.If your party takes a huge hit, it takes pretty long to heal them back up.And they will take huge hits, because healkill has pretty long cd and the other barrier values arent that high.Lf is really a big problem.You cant rlly react to a boss attack. You really need to know, that he is doing that attack, before the animation starts, because of casttime on healskill, delay on f3

actually, ive been playing this for about 2 weeks...and I can maintain barrier 100% of the time, even in raids.does NOT take a long time to get them back up at all when traited right, matter of 3 seconds for most. with a competant team they will assist with rezzes.says you...ive joined 4 w6 and it went smooth, necro healer scourge with barrier is BETTER than druid here due to the insta downs.F3 pulls allies 2 times per cast, precast the heal after you see telegraphs and you yourself can even be revived from your own heal, allies still be pulled after you casted Garish pillar, even while downed.

[Anchoku.8142]

Uuuh, for random derpelly-PUGs heal-Scourge can be very good?

More seriously, Scourge can flatten the skill-curve, which, I think, is its role.

[Liviathan.5249]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@"Bellius.8713" said:Hi, I'm a returning player, and stumbled into a guide on metabattle about scourge healing (

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Scourge_-_Support_Healer

). So, I have some question about it!

☺️

(Notes : I havent played since the last expansion, and am quite casual, but I want to step up and try the "high lvl" content this game have to offerAlso, english is not my native language so sorry if I make some mistakes)

So :1- Is scourge healer viable and accepted in HL fractals? (I don't really care if it's the meta or the best, but I whant to know if it works and if I will stugle to find/make a groupe to play with)

Not rlly. For pugs its bad and for organised groups, druid is better, because more partybuffs.

2- And in raids?

No. Same as fracs. Druid has better party buffs, and ele and rev and guard have wayyyyy better healing.

3- What about the build? The meta battle build about scourge heal looks fine, but I'd like to be tankier with ministrel gear. My reasonning is that I will probably play in lfg and I'd like to be abnle to "carry", or at least correct mistake of other player as well as abble to be abble to have more room for errors on my side. Would it be ok, or is the loss of dps will be a burden in fractals/raids?

Thanks

☺️

The only thing necro support is really good for is ressing downed people. But why would i take a scourge, when i can get a ele, that just keeps everyone at full health all the time?

Scourge is the main healer with 1 druid in wing 6...and i personally use scourge healer in both fractals +cms and full raid clears without any problem. We need scourges but we dont need meta w@@@@s. No offence.

[Sephylon.4938]

@Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:actually, ive been playing this for about 2 weeks...and I can maintain barrier 100% of the time, even in raids.doesn't that just mean that the damage they take is negligible?does NOT take a long time to get them back up at all when traited right, matter of 3 seconds for most. with a competant team they will assist with rezzes.Why are they going down though, didn't they have barrier?

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@"Lithril Ashwalker.6230" said:actually, ive been playing this for about 2 weeks...and I can maintain barrier 100% of the time, even in raids.doesn't that just mean that the damage they take is negligible?does NOT take a long time to get them back up at all when traited right, matter of 3 seconds for most. with a competent team they will assist with rezzes.Why are they going down though, didn't they have barrier?

i see what you're doing. These participating party members were overextended, garish pulled them to me. remember how i stated "competent" players?

[Dadnir.5038]

This is high quality necroing... A march thread just been raised from the dead threads.

[Axl.8924]

@StillSeijiro.8756 said:That's not true at all , the only reason druid is sought after because its broken ( Over powered) in the first place.But talking about viability of scourge healers , yes its actually very good if your party is getting hit a lot because it offers no healer can do which is barrier.What is there to heal when your party takes no damage with barrier up?Half of your healing is just barrier and keeping up those scholar runes up hence more dps.You can even get might stack up if u build it right.

I main scourge healer in fractals(t4) and raid and its even possible to solo heal if the druid died , been there done that.So saying scourge cant even heal enough is absurd...i would appreciate if u actually play a scourge healer or partied with a good one to comment on something like this...Just dont take vampiric pressence its actually garbage for heals(to me).I prefer taking Life from death to have that 5k burst heal when needed and life transfusion heals 9.9k+ over 9 seconds with 12 second cooldown (9sec with alacrity uptime aka permanent 1.1k+ heal every sec over 600 aoe).The build uses up a lot of life force but u gain them easily when u use staff and other utilities that give them back , i even got signet of undeath for the life force regen because it helps in the long run.

I think personally those barriers are lifesavers lilke you said.More than once, a scourge hit me with barrier and saved me from death when i found i wasn't able to dodge something, or i didn't know how to avoid a attack, like with priestess and her attacks.

Also with deepstone 3 i needed a rezzer because people were getting downed and dying a lot.Its one of the harder ones, with priestess amala being the hardest i've done of tier 3, because of the spamming.Even then, i was literally forced to change my build to transfusion, so if someone dies i can rez them with number 4 attack in shroud, so yeah i won't turn down a offer for a scourge healer.

[Sephylon.4938]

@Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:actually, ive been playing this for about 2 weeks...and I can maintain barrier 100% of the time, even in raids.doesn't that just mean that the damage they take is negligible?does NOT take a long time to get them back up at all when traited right, matter of 3 seconds for most. with a competent team they will assist with rezzes.Why are they going down though, didn't they have barrier?

i see what you're doing. These participating party members were overextended, garish pulled them to me. remember how i stated "competent" players?

What I got from your original post was "I can keep barriers up 100% of the time and help rez competent players". That and you felt like a wing 6 went smoother because of you.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:actually, ive been playing this for about 2 weeks...and I can maintain barrier 100% of the time, even in raids.doesn't that just mean that the damage they take is negligible?does NOT take a long time to get them back up at all when traited right, matter of 3 seconds for most. with a competent team they will assist with rezzes.Why are they going down though, didn't they have barrier?

i see what you're doing. These participating party members were overextended, garish pulled them to me. remember how i stated "competent" players?

What I got from your original post was "I can keep barriers up 100% of the time and help rez competent players". That and you felt like a wing 6 went smoother because of you.

ur damn right.