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with PvP/WvW spits coming, can necro get some more PvE damage?


Lexan.5930
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The nerfs to scourge originally were to prevent it from being so oppressive in sPvP and WvW but hit it in PvE primarily raids. With the split changes coming for everyone would it be possible for the devs to bring back some of the damage that necro, specifically scourge, lost in the PvP nerfs?

Could we get dhuumfire duration increase and get the duration of torment from punishment skills put back to where it was.

Also would it be possible to reduce the healing from parasitic contagion to say 50% of what it is now so we could get more condi damage output and not be seen as so "tanky"

Edit : changed wording for clarification

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  1. Dhuumfire already applies to all shade skills as all of them proc the "manifest sand shade" attack (which is what Duumfire modifies).
  2. Parasitic Contagion isn't taken in PvE
  3. Parasitic Contagion only heals for 10% of condition damage dealt. It can't be "reduced" to 50% of the damage dealt.

Now that that's all out of the way, there was simply no reason to nerf Nefarious Favor, Sand Cascade, or any of the Punishment skills in PvE. Those should be reverted. They won't be (because ANet never reverts anything), but they should.

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@"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

  1. Dhuumfire already applies to all shade skills as all of them proc the "manifest sand shade" attack (which is what Duumfire modifies).
  2. Parasitic Contagion isn't taken in PvE
  3. Parasitic Contagion only heals for 10% of condition damage dealt. It can't be "reduced" to 50% of the damage dealt.

Now that that's all out of the way, there was simply no reason to nerf Nefarious Favor, Sand Cascade, or any of the Punishment skills in PvE. Those should be reverted. They won't be (because ANet never reverts anything), but they should.

I changed my OP to clarify about parasitic contagion. My point there is that because necro even has the option to take it effects how much damage anet is willing to let the necro have in a spreadsheet.

I thought dhuumfire procing on every f skill was one of the first changes they made and that it only procs on actually placing the shade down. If im wrong then dhuumfire is even more underwhelming

I agree, the cooldowns, Condi cleanse, and rltorment duration nerfs in pve should be reverted. But your right that anet probably won't revert

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Anet don't like to "put back" things. Anyway, the official stance they have is that they do only "number" change between gamemodes when they do split, thus it's impossible to get back what's been removed from desert shroud for example.

The issue is that some players already exploit epidemic in very specific group comp to break dps records, which can be seen by anet as a reason to not increase the necromancer's dps in PvE and even try to nerf it. The necromancer is certainly not in a good spot in PvE and never was, however, it does have a bothersome potential that can be exploited to achieve numbers that can be qualified as gamebreaking. Would it be a good move from anet to buff such potential? No.

Even if we would like to ignore it epidemic is a dangerous tool that have the potential to destroy raid group diversity. And this is especially true for scourge who can add a good layer of survivability to the whole raid on top of that. Isn't it ironic? being a single necromancer in a raid group make you a subpar choice but as soon as you can epi bounce with other necromancers, your value shot to the roof. Yet, that's a good reason fto avoid buffing the necromancer's regular dps output.

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Isn't there a limit how many condis you can stack with epi? and besides:Its a niche ability.

Necros on scourge need some ability to actually be desired besides for a niche ability like epi.Imagine if mesmers were only desired because of time warp:Yeah they would be histerical and angry.

Any comments from those others to argue against buffing necros in pve with epi, are obviously classist and just want to keep necro class down.

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@"Lexan.5930" said:The nerfs to scourge originally were to prevent it from being so oppressive in sPvP and WvW but hit it in PvE primarily raids. With the split changes coming for everyone would it be possible for the devs to bring back some of the damage that necro, specifically scourge, lost in the PvP nerfs?

Could we get dhuumfire duration increase and get the duration of torment from punishment skills put back to where it was.

Also would it be possible to reduce the healing from parasitic contagion to say 50% of what it is now so we could get more condi damage output and not be seen as so "tanky"

Edit : changed wording for clarification

Having time to play with scourge more in pve only honestly if parasitic contagion only healed for 5% of the damage dealt via condition I wouldnt use it. I would just use the scepter trait if i was not capped on durations already. IF I was capped on duration then i would just use the other trait. Assuming you are not maxed on bleed, torment, or maybe even poison durations if you want more damage just take the darn scepter trait :>Dhumfire does not need a duration increase maybe have it apply 2 stacks per proc instead of 1 at most keep the same duration.

The other socurge changes that hit pve previously should have long been undone. There was no reason for it especially on defensive skills.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Lexan.5930" said:The nerfs to scourge originally were to prevent it from being so oppressive in sPvP and WvW but hit it in PvE primarily raids. With the split changes coming for everyone would it be possible for the devs to bring back some of the damage that necro, specifically scourge, lost in the PvP nerfs?

Could we get dhuumfire duration increase and get the duration of torment from punishment skills put back to where it was.

Also would it be possible to reduce the healing from parasitic contagion to say 50% of what it is now so we could get more condi damage output and not be seen as so "tanky"

Edit : changed wording for clarification

Having time to play with scourge more in pve only honestly if parasitic contagion only healed for 5% of the damage dealt via condition I wouldnt use it. I would just use the scepter trait if i was not capped on durations already. IF I was capped on duration then i would just use the other trait. Assuming you are not maxed on bleed, torment, or maybe even poison durations if you want more damage just take the darn scepter trait :>Dhumfire does not need a duration increase maybe have it apply 2 stacks per proc instead of 1 at most keep the same duration.

The other socurge changes that hit pve previously should have long been undone. There was no reason for it especially on defensive skills.

Necros need more dmg though.scourge is lower dps than reaper, and reaper is barely 29k dps even if played well.Meanwhile:Both daredevil (Power) and engi (Condi) do about 1k dps more, and every other class above that is way above that level.

This is not healthy for a class.Its one thing for a support class to be 29-30 if they have such strong support that it is compensated, but if a class can provide strong support such as mesmers eles and maybe rev, i don't know how good renegade is in support, but its way high in dps rankings in both large and small targets, then yeah i think its bad thing.I think with the amount of support scourge has, it should be At least in the 34-37k range.

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@Axl.8924 said:

Necros need more dmg though.scourge is lower dps than reaper, and reaper is barely 29k dps even if played well.Meanwhile:Both daredevil (Power) and engi (Condi) do about 1k dps more, and every other class above that is way above that level.

This is not healthy for a class.Its one thing for a support class to be 29-30 if they have such strong support that it is compensated, but if a class can provide strong support such as mesmers eles and maybe rev, i don't know how good renegade is in support, but its way high in dps rankings in both large and small targets, then yeah i think its bad thing.I think with the amount of support scourge has, it should be At least in the 34-37k range.

Scourge also provides some support thus it shouldnt have the highest damage while providing that support. One more thing to consider is the fact that anet does not use boons enough on pve foes. You get them here and there but they are not spammed as if they were another player. IF this was the case the extra rng bits of dps scourge/necro could do from converts might push it enough to be right in line with the other profession specs.Ideally add more boons on foes in pve would fix the dps issue this is assuming foes had lots of regen & vigor or possibly even stablity even if the vigor was not as useful to them.

As far as some professions doing 1k dps more thats not an unhealthy amount imo as for the professions that are doing 5k+ more then perhaps they need to be toned down and not up. Or maybe their best role is just pure dps giving them that edge.

Mesmer is a poker player holding all the right cards its honestly not right trying to compare it to any other profession when it comes to usefulness, dps, etc. If every profession was as good of a multi tool mesmer there would likely not be as many mesmers XD.

Overall though these professions were likely built without raids in mind and simply trying to balance them by looking at numbers on test golems under best case situations is not a good way to do balance. Its honestly just as bad nerffing things in pve because of how busted they might be in wvw or spvp. I think overall scourge is not in too bad a spot for what it can do. The fact that its still doing this well this many months after its release is a hidden blessing in my opinion.

If it was up to me I would go with boon spaming AI foes in pve before directly buffing scourge for more damage. Power reaper could use a bit more though. IF its considered to be a power spec i dont think that it should be getting out shined by a condi variant of itself.

If i was to consider for the sake of numbers buffing dps on necro I would slot reaper in the 34-37k range and Scourge/Core in the 29-32k range. This is all just wishing numbers though dont take this bit here too seriously. Sadly to do this would make them so busted in other modes which would lead to them getting thrown to the floor again.

I still think all the dps test golem stuff could have been avoided by simply putting a 30k dps cap that easily every profession has at least 1 option that could hit it. This way no one can say they are not balanced for raids. Then we can start looking at pvp balance and other situations rather than going test golem raid this raid that this profession does x more and does that while x profession does this and does not even have that.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Axl.8924" said:

Necros need more dmg though.scourge is lower dps than reaper, and reaper is barely 29k dps even if played well.Meanwhile:Both daredevil (Power) and engi (Condi) do about 1k dps more, and every other class above that is way above that level.

This is not healthy for a class.Its one thing for a support class to be 29-30 if they have such strong support that it is compensated, but if a class can provide strong support such as mesmers eles and maybe rev, i don't know how good renegade is in support, but its way high in dps rankings in both large and small targets, then yeah i think its bad thing.I think with the amount of support scourge has, it should be At least in the 34-37k range.

Scourge also provides some support thus it shouldnt have the highest damage while providing that support. One more thing to consider is the fact that anet does not use boons enough on pve foes. You get them here and there but they are not spammed as if they were another player. IF this was the case the extra rng bits of dps scourge/necro could do from converts might push it enough to be right in line with the other profession specs.Ideally add more boons on foes in pve would fix the dps issue this is assuming foes had lots of regen & vigor or possibly even stablity even if the vigor was not as useful to them.

As far as some professions doing 1k dps more thats not an unhealthy amount imo as for the professions that are doing 5k+ more then perhaps they need to be toned down and not up. Or maybe their best role is just pure dps giving them that edge.

Mesmer is a poker player holding all the right cards its honestly not right trying to compare it to any other profession when it comes to usefulness, dps, etc. If every profession was as good of a multi tool mesmer there would likely not be as many mesmers XD.

Overall though these professions were likely built without raids in mind and simply trying to balance them by looking at numbers on test golems under best case situations is not a good way to do balance. Its honestly just as bad nerffing things in pve because of how busted they might be in wvw or spvp. I think overall scourge is not in too bad a spot for what it can do. The fact that its still doing this well this many months after its release is a hidden blessing in my opinion.

If it was up to me I would go with boon spaming AI foes in pve before directly buffing scourge for more damage. Power reaper could use a bit more though. IF its considered to be a power spec i dont think that it should be getting out shined by a condi variant of itself.

Scourge had its support nerfed, and its nowhere near as strong as some other classes can provide or desired, and some classes can provide strong dps and strong support, like memsers.Also:What if necros don't want to be forced to be support? mesmers got buffed so they can be specced as power if they want sacrificing their support.Chronos have a bit of support that they can keep, but won't be great cc, and they can do over 30k dps, and if they spec they can be a pure support spec.

Mesmers wanted to be able to spec into dps, and not be forced into becoming one thing.

Personally, i think this is well done in that you can choose more boons more duration with gear of commander for duration, and they can give you a bajillion boons.Problem is:No way can necro compete with their support.Necros are also suffering a consequence of the delay, and that delay isn't even needed in pve because its not overpowered.

I think scourge needs to be able to drop shields to keep team alive, and to properly corrupt condis into boons and boons into condis.Think of the ability

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Disenchanterhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Cleanse

Lets compare scourges abilities for cleansing and stripping to these shall we?

So it makes no sense to have a delay and personally i think it would make necros very useful in fractals if you could turn multiple condis into boons.It would make necros useful for condi corrupting.

Aside from that, the big part thats the selling, is the barrier.The delay needs to be gotten rid of for scourge, so they can reliably land it and get their team with a barrier.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

Having time to play with scourge more in pve only honestly if parasitic contagion only healed for 5% of the damage dealt via condition I wouldnt use it. I would just use the scepter trait if i was not capped on durations already. IF I was capped on duration then i would just use the other trait. Assuming you are not maxed on bleed, torment, or maybe even poison durations if you want more damage just take the darn scepter trait :>Dhumfire does not need a duration increase maybe have it apply 2 stacks per proc instead of 1 at most keep the same duration.

The other socurge changes that hit pve previously should have long been undone. There was no reason for it especially on defensive skills.

FYI, Lingering Curse doesn't interact with the duration cap like you think it does. It changes the base durations for conditions inflicted by Scepter skills.

For example, untraited baseline duration for the bleeds on Grasping Dead is 10 seconds. When traited, this is 15 seconds. This is before condition duration is applied at all.

With 100% bleed duration and Lingering Curse, those bleeds are 30 seconds long. This is how it really behaves.

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@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

Having time to play with scourge more in pve only honestly if parasitic contagion only healed for 5% of the damage dealt via condition I wouldnt use it. I would just use the scepter trait if i was not capped on durations already. IF I was capped on duration then i would just use the other trait. Assuming you are not maxed on bleed, torment, or maybe even poison durations if you want more damage just take the darn scepter trait :>Dhumfire does not need a duration increase maybe have it apply 2 stacks per proc instead of 1 at most keep the same duration.

The other socurge changes that hit pve previously should have long been undone. There was no reason for it especially on defensive skills.

FYI, Lingering Curse doesn't interact with the duration cap like you think it does. It changes the base durations for conditions inflicted by Scepter skills.

For example, untraited baseline duration for the bleeds on Grasping Dead is 10 seconds. When traited, this is 15 seconds. This is before condition duration is applied at all.

With 100% bleed duration and Lingering Curse, those bleeds are 30 seconds long. This is how it really behaves.

Interesting note. I suppose i failed to notice that ive played mostly power for a long period of time. Well there you go you want more damage then he could just slot lingering curse lol.

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@"Axl.8924" said:

Scourge had its support nerfed, and its nowhere near as strong as some other classes can provide or desired, and some classes can provide strong dps and strong support, like memsers.Also:What if necros don't want to be forced to be support? mesmers got buffed so they can be specced as power if they want sacrificing their support.Chronos have a bit of support that they can keep, but won't be great cc, and they can do over 30k dps, and if they spec they can be a pure support spec.

Mesmers wanted to be able to spec into dps, and not be forced into becoming one thing.

Personally, i think this is well done in that you can choose more boons more duration with gear of commander for duration, and they can give you a bajillion boons.Problem is:No way can necro compete with their support.Necros are also suffering a consequence of the delay, and that delay isn't even needed in pve because its not overpowered.

I think scourge needs to be able to drop shields to keep team alive, and to properly corrupt condis into boons and boons into condis.Think of the ability

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Disenchanterhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Cleanse

Lets compare scourges abilities for cleansing and stripping to these shall we?

So it makes no sense to have a delay and personally i think it would make necros very useful in fractals if you could turn multiple condis into boons.It would make necros useful for condi corrupting.

Aside from that, the big part thats the selling, is the barrier.The delay needs to be gotten rid of for scourge, so they can reliably land it and get their team with a barrier.

I know i know mesmer op i get it it does great thing it has great dps option.Its also why they are so busted right now anyone who thinks mesmer is not over tuned atm is out of their mind.

I keep telling you not to compare any professions abilities to mesmer I already know that mesmers abilities trump necros and scourges punishments and you cant compare different types of skills like that. You are comparing utility to profession mechanic skills. Of course the weight wont carry through the same generally utility skills will always be stronger than profession mechanic skills. If you want more damage then perhaps a good suggestion would be removing the boon conversion from punishments to actually make them do damage because right now they dont do a darn thing.

While i agree the delay on defensive abilities should not be included on scourges profession mechanic its not the full root of the problem. Scourge is literally its own profession right now.Im not saying scourge is in a good spot or that necro is in a totally good spot compared to every other profession but thats because its over tunes never last more than 2 months.

Out side of the release of of new elite specs necros balance changes are never over tuned. EVER! And in the case of e specs they end up under tuned on the very first balance patch if not the 2nd one for sure.

What necro really needs is a spec built for pve specifically that lets them hit the number you want to see them hit (assuming they dont ever go back to fix core or reaper) But sucks ass in pvp situations. This means it lack boon strip or conversion and focuses on putting out its own boons and buffs to deal the damage. Preferably not through condition because condition shifts each year and 1 years change could ruin it.

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@"Lexan.5930" said:The nerfs to scourge originally were to prevent it from being so oppressive in sPvP and WvW but hit it in PvE primarily raids. With the split changes coming for everyone would it be possible for the devs to bring back some of the damage that necro, specifically scourge, lost in the PvP nerfs?

Could we get dhuumfire duration increase and get the duration of torment from punishment skills put back to where it was.

Also would it be possible to reduce the healing from parasitic contagion to say 50% of what it is now so we could get more condi damage output and not be seen as so "tanky"

Edit : changed wording for clarification

that is a REALLY bad argumentation, everytime PvE guys came to necro Forum and say, common anet take away sustain and give us dmg. THATS exactly the reason why reaper get a mess, cause they finally do that for all gamemodes. necro already has very low sustain, you want nerfing a core trait that hurts core necro too. if you want trade sustain for dmg do it in scourge traitline and skills. take away barrier and dont hurt already punished core and reaper traits...

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@"Aktium.9506" said:What if Epidemic always spawned 5 projectiles and they automatically bounced back to the target you used it on if there are no other additional targets nearby?

Condi necromancer would be the sole and unique dps spec in PvE. The power reaper crew would cry river to have a bit of dps increase that would seem to be forever denied (like what we have atm ;) ). Other professions would raise some threads in the necromancer's subforum about the "necromancer issue". The PvP/WvW crew would vomit blood because "cancer necro op in 1v1"... etc.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Axl.8924" said:

Scourge had its support nerfed, and its nowhere near as strong as some other classes can provide or desired, and some classes can provide strong dps and strong support, like memsers.Also:What if necros don't want to be forced to be support? mesmers got buffed so they can be specced as power if they want sacrificing their support.Chronos have a bit of support that they can keep, but won't be great cc, and they can do over 30k dps, and if they spec they can be a pure support spec.

Mesmers wanted to be able to spec into dps, and not be forced into becoming one thing.

Personally, i think this is well done in that you can choose more boons more duration with gear of commander for duration, and they can give you a bajillion boons.Problem is:No way can necro compete with their support.Necros are also suffering a consequence of the delay, and that delay isn't even needed in pve because its not overpowered.

I think scourge needs to be able to drop shields to keep team alive, and to properly corrupt condis into boons and boons into condis.Think of the ability

Lets compare scourges abilities for cleansing and stripping to these shall we?

So it makes no sense to have a delay and personally i think it would make necros very useful in fractals if you could turn multiple condis into boons.It would make necros useful for condi corrupting.

Aside from that, the big part thats the selling, is the barrier.The delay needs to be gotten rid of for scourge, so they can reliably land it and get their team with a barrier.

I know i know mesmer op i get it it does great thing it has great dps option.Its also why they are so busted right now anyone who thinks mesmer is not over tuned atm is out of their mind.

I keep telling you not to compare any professions abilities to mesmer I already know that mesmers abilities trump necros and scourges punishments and you cant compare different types of skills like that. You are comparing utility to profession mechanic skills. Of course the weight wont carry through the same generally utility skills will always be stronger than profession mechanic skills. If you want more damage then perhaps a good suggestion would be removing the boon conversion from punishments to actually make them do damage because right now they dont do a darn thing.

While i agree the delay on defensive abilities should not be included on scourges profession mechanic its not the full root of the problem. Scourge is literally its own profession right now.Im not saying scourge is in a good spot or that necro is in a totally good spot compared to every other profession but thats because its over tunes never last more than 2 months.

Out side of the release of of new elite specs necros balance changes are never over tuned. EVER! And in the case of e specs they end up under tuned on the very first balance patch if not the 2nd one for sure.

What necro really needs is a spec built for pve specifically that lets them hit the number you want to see them hit (assuming they dont ever go back to fix core or reaper) But sucks kitten in pvp situations. This means it lack boon strip or conversion and focuses on putting out its own boons and buffs to deal the damage. Preferably not through condition because condition shifts each year and 1 years change could ruin it.

I compare abilities, because its similar but built in.Unlike mesmers, scourge don't have to get utility or trait for mass strip of boons and mas condi corrupt, because its built in, like how mesmers can trait in to have tons of boons with i think it was chaos? they gotta put in the build, and scourge doesn't.

Point is:I was comparing them, because mesmers can use a utility to strip, but scourge don't have to, because its built in as mass strip.It is a fair comparison too, because mesmers are fairly good at cc and boon strip and boon spam.Its really strong boon strip that scourge has.and acts as a very powerfull cc.

Problem is:its only strong if you have a enemy who spams tons and tons of condis and has tons and tons of boons, so for it to work.I don't think its unfair to corrupt lets say multiple stacks of boons in pve.This makes them viable in fractals and desired, plus condi corrupt.

I'm not saying its stronger or weaker, i'm just saying its comparable because mesmers can be pretty offensive with their ccs, especially down the line of what was it:F2 for weakness? or was it f3?

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