Champions and Dragon Champions?

[Lance Von Alden.8415]

Ok, so far I have read around and Dragons make their minions by (generally) corrupting and/or enslaving living beings to obey and follow them (only exception seems Primordus and his destroyers, which are more like fabricated?).

Anyway, my doubt comes from this: If Elder Dragons are the only Draconic-looking beings and they don't seem to copulate, how do the Draconic Champions (Like Glint and the Shatterer) come to be? What did Glint do to be able to have offspring? Is it like Destroyers, a fabrication of sorts?

[Zola.6197]

Well we know Aurene and Vlast came from one of Glint’s eggs. It could be some kind of magical/asexual reproduction, similar to how Sylvari are born from a tree. Perhaps dragons can simply produce new dragons at will?

[Tyson.5160]

I believe Glint is the offspring of Kralkatorrik.

[Lance Von Alden.8415]

So, essentially, any dragon can hatch eggs, and that means that new dragons can all come, not only good ones.

[Oglaf.1074]

Or in the case of Zhaitan who doesn’t really need “new” Dragons. ;)

[northcharm.9485]

@Lance Von Alden.8415 said:Ok, so far I have read around and Dragons make their minions by (generally) corrupting and/or enslaving living beings to obey and follow them (only exception seems Primordus and his destroyers, which are more like fabricated?).

Anyway, my doubt comes from this: If Elder Dragons are the only Draconic-looking beings and they don't seem to copulate, how do the Draconic Champions (Like Glint and the Shatterer) come to be? What did Glint do to be able to have offspring? Is it like Destroyers, a fabrication of sorts?

On the plannet of Tyria there is other dragons that are not elder dragons. One example of this is in Gw1 the Factions campaing u will meet a breed of dragons called salt spray dragons. Orr before it sunk also had dragons on it and there were other dragons all acrost the contenint of Tyria and there is most likly more dragons possible still alive on other parts of tyria and the other contenints of the plannet. also what weve seen of the in game map is 27% of tyria

[Oglaf.1074]

Keep in mind also that there are wyverns (two legs, wings) and dragons (four legs, wings) and they are not to be confused.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Lance Von Alden.8415" said:Ok, so far I have read around and Dragons make their minions by (generally) corrupting and/or enslaving living beings to obey and follow them (only exception seems Primordus and his destroyers, which are more like fabricated?).

Anyway, my doubt comes from this: If Elder Dragons are the only Draconic-looking beings and they don't seem to copulate, how do the Draconic Champions (Like Glint and the Shatterer) come to be? What did Glint do to be able to have offspring? Is it like Destroyers, a fabrication of sorts?

Technically Primordus can - and rarely, does - corrupt living beings as well. Just as Zhaitan focused primarily on the dead but also corrupted the living from time to time, or Mordremoth mainly corrupted plants into clones of living and dead, but occasionally corrupted the creatures themselves. The DSD seems to function similar to Primordus, but with water instead of lava.

Glint is literally the child of Kralkatorrik. The Shatterer is landscape and air corrupted into a draconic-shaped minion. We also know of other dragons in existence - the Bone Dragons from GW1, for example, were the corpses of European-styled dragons in Orr (whether they're the same as the risen dragons is unclear - all the same, it is implied they were actual dragons before death, and not just bodies of draconic dragon minions). There are also a number of "dragon species" in Cantha, though these do not follow the European-style of four legs, two wings, and a tail - we have the turtle-like Rockhide Dragons and the wyvern-like (2 fore-wings, 2 hindlegs) Saltspray Dragons. Wyverns themselves are occasionally called dragons too, it should be noted, and are considered cousins to drakes (which implies drakes could be cousins to dragons).

We do not know how Glint got pregnant - could be asexual reproduction, or that she was corrupted while pregnant all those thousands of years ago. We do know Glint had a pre-corrupted state, and we know that dragon minions cannot reproduce naturally (this being due to their bodies becoming elemental); we, similarly, know that Glint's eggs can and have gone into a stasis state, though how long is far from clear - for all we know, those eggs could have been in stasis since her corruption over 3,000 years ago.

Since Glint was a dragon champion, it's possible that Vlast and Aurene are not typical children at all, but similar to other draconic champions - as we do know that dragon champions can create new champions.

[Oglaf.1074]

Maybe the Elder Dragons became what they are in a similar fashion to how the Six did: by ascending.

Just like how the Six have spheres of dominion (death, war, healing etc) the Elder Dragons may have been regular Dragons from ages waaaaaaaaay past who somehow ascended to the state they are in now and, like the Six, and got their spheres of dominion as well. Maybe ol Kraky and Glint were in a go-lucky happy "dragon marriage" before he ascended and she got pregnant before that happened?

I mean, heck, look at Zhaitan. While constantly talked about as a single being, he is clearly made up out of multiple Dragons. Maybe he used to be multiple Dragons who got together and through some kind of ritual mass-suicide killed themselves and ascended/were reborn as this new Elder Dragon?

[Lance Von Alden.8415]

@"Oglaf.1074" said:I mean, heck, look at Zhaitan. While constantly talked about as a single being, he is clearly made up out of multiple Dragons. Maybe he used to be multiple Dragons who got together and through some kind of ritual mass-suicide killed themselves and ascended/were reborn as this new Elder Dragon?

Multiple dragons? Is this true?

And well, maybe, just maybe, Elder Dragons are their own breed and not related to other kinds and something made em become the forces of Nature we fear today like you say.

But then the question would be, why were Vlast and Aurene "good" instead of savage? After all Glint used to be savage before being converted by the Exalted. And I want Vlast back, x3, he sounded so magnificent and incredible, and I barely got to see him while being killed.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Lance Von Alden.8415 said:

@"Oglaf.1074" said:I mean, heck, look at Zhaitan. While constantly talked about as a single being, he is clearly made up out of multiple Dragons. Maybe he used to be multiple Dragons who got together and through some kind of ritual mass-suicide killed themselves and ascended/were reborn as this new Elder Dragon?

Multiple dragons? Is this true?

Eh, questionable, tbh. If you look at Zhaitan, he has four pairs of wings and tails, and has smaller heads coming out of his mouth. The concept art also had his skin looking like dragons (this did not translate into the game) with the design intent being that Zhaitan "is comprised of other dragons" - whether that aspect of the concept art made it into the end lore or not is, simply put, not very clear. So people tend to say that Zhaitan is some sort of coalescence of multiple dragon corpses. But honestly, it could just as easily be a case akin to polycephaly, much like a hydra.

[Oglaf.1074]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Lance Von Alden.8415 said:

@"Oglaf.1074" said:I mean, heck, look at Zhaitan. While constantly talked about as a single being, he is clearly made up out of multiple Dragons. Maybe he used to be multiple Dragons who got together and through some kind of ritual mass-suicide killed themselves and ascended/were reborn as this new Elder Dragon?

Multiple dragons? Is this true?

Eh, questionable, tbh. If you look at Zhaitan, he has four pairs of wings and tails, and has smaller heads coming out of his mouth. The concept art also had his skin looking like dragons (this did not translate into the game) with the design intent being that Zhaitan "is comprised of other dragons" - whether that aspect of the concept art made it into the end lore or not is, simply put, not very clear. So people tend to say that Zhaitan is some sort of coalescence of multiple dragon corpses. But honestly, it could just as easily be a case akin to

polycephaly

, much like a hydra.

Looking at the render of his model there definitely seems to be a "main" dragon to it but also multiple smaller dragons haphazardly making up the rest of his body (not just ones in his mouth). Not to mention that he seems to be "cut in half" in that he is an upper torso without a lower body.

.... Zhaitan is weird, man.

[northcharm.9485]

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Lance Von Alden.8415 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:I mean, heck, look at Zhaitan. While constantly talked about as a single being, he is clearly made up out of multiple Dragons. Maybe he used to be multiple Dragons who got together and through some kind of ritual mass-suicide killed themselves and ascended/were reborn as this new Elder Dragon?

Multiple dragons? Is this true?

Eh, questionable, tbh. If you look at Zhaitan, he has four pairs of wings and tails, and has smaller heads coming out of his mouth. The concept art also had his skin looking like dragons (this did not translate into the game) with the design intent being that Zhaitan "is comprised of other dragons" - whether that aspect of the concept art made it into the end lore or not is, simply put, not very clear. So people tend to say that Zhaitan is some sort of coalescence of multiple dragon corpses. But honestly, it could just as easily be a case akin to

polycephaly

, much like a hydra.

Looking at the

render of his model

there definitely seems to be a "main" dragon to it but also multiple smaller dragons haphazardly making up the rest of his body (not just ones in his mouth). Not to mention that he seems to be "cut in half" in that he is an upper torso without a lower body.

.... Zhaitan is weird, man.

Zhaitan is one dragon. unless i missed something in the lore he is a hydragon which is a dragon hydra hybrid mix thingy. Zhaitan is also suppostesd to represent death and reapers. Each dragon is supposed to be a force of nature. Zhaitan death, mordremoth plants and jungles, kralk is crystals representing ores and minerals you get from the earth, Primordus fire/lava volcano, jormag ice north/south poles, and DSD who is water. Each dragon representing an important aspect in the circle of life and death. Also would explain why Prime looks like hes made of lava and why kralk looks like he is made of minerals mainly crystals. Which is why im guessing if we see jormag hell look icy and DSD will look like some kind of water creature.

[northcharm.9485]

@Oglaf.1074 said:Keep in mind also that there are wyverns (two legs, wings) and dragons (four legs, wings) and they are not to be confused.

Also i dont know if u have played gw1 but anet likes to chane the way things look. The krait are a prime example so are the hydras in PoF in gw1 krait were 4 leged winged creatures now they arnt. same with hydras in gw1 they were 2 leged now they are 4 leged.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Oglaf.1074" said:Looking at the render of his model there definitely seems to be a "main" dragon to it but also multiple smaller dragons haphazardly making up the rest of his body (not just ones in his mouth). Not to mention that he seems to be "cut in half" in that he is an upper torso without a lower body.

.... Zhaitan is weird, man.

Dunno why, but I never noticed the dragon heads on Zhaitan's shoulders before. Noticed the rest though.

[Bast.7253]

Zhaitan the elder dragon is a singular entity, but his actual corpse is comprised of multiple dragons. It's obvious even from his model. Like the size variations from his multiple tails.

All this talk of other dragons and Orr makes me wish we could get a long series of fractals or something set back in Orr's prime. :( With the pretty jungle landscape and the architecture not being ruined, and dragons flying around everywhere like they're looking for their Khaleesi. (And the non decaying gorillas making some sound other than whatever the creepy screeching mechanical sound is they make.) Oh, the things that would be amazing but will never be. :(

[northcharm.9485]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:Zhaitan the elder dragon is a singular entity, but his actual corpse is comprised of multiple dragons. It's obvious even from his model. Like the size variations from his multiple tails.

All this talk of other dragons and Orr makes me wish we could get a long series of fractals or something set back in Orr's prime. :( With the pretty jungle landscape and the architecture not being ruined, and dragons flying around everywhere like they're looking for their Khaleesi. (And the non decaying gorillas making some sound other than whatever the creepy screeching mechanical sound is they make.) Oh, the things that would be amazing but will never be. :(

We would have to get a Dev in here to clarify because from all the lore ive read Zhaitan is one dragon but is suposed to reapresent Death itself as an element and important part of the cycle of life and death just like the other elder dragons. But as the force of death he is basicly the Grim Reaper and all the small dragon heads are his reapers. Also being what is to believed a Dragon Hydra he would have lots of heads. On a side note really wired speculation but what if there is one head for every soul of a living creature he has consumed. Also being the lord of death he would be able to use parts from other creatures to repair himself when he is hurt. Which would make alot of sense since he would have been injured during the last elder dragon riseing.

[Oglaf.1074]

Everything related to Zhaitan’s make-up, creation etc is pure speculation. You cannot say for certain either way (same goes for any Elder Dragon) as both the game and devs are tight-lipped on the matter.

One dragon, many dragons - all just as possible as the other at this point.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Lance Von Alden.8415 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:I mean, heck, look at Zhaitan. While constantly talked about as a single being, he is clearly made up out of multiple Dragons. Maybe he used to be multiple Dragons who got together and through some kind of ritual mass-suicide killed themselves and ascended/were reborn as this new Elder Dragon?

Multiple dragons? Is this true?

Eh, questionable, tbh. If you look at Zhaitan, he has four pairs of wings and tails, and has smaller heads coming out of his mouth. The concept art also had his skin looking like dragons (this did not translate into the game) with the design intent being that Zhaitan "is comprised of other dragons" - whether that aspect of the concept art made it into the end lore or not is, simply put, not very clear. So people tend to say that Zhaitan is some sort of coalescence of multiple dragon corpses. But honestly, it could just as easily be a case akin to

polycephaly

, much like a hydra.

Looking at the

render of his model

there definitely seems to be a "main" dragon to it but also multiple smaller dragons haphazardly making up the rest of his body (not just ones in his mouth). Not to mention that he seems to be "cut in half" in that he is an upper torso without a lower body.

.... Zhaitan is weird, man.Maybe the true deep sea dragon is actually Zhaitans lower body that he forgot when Orr rose from the ocean. I mean he was an

elder

dragon, old people forget stuff all the time.

[Tyson.5160]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Lance Von Alden.8415 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:I mean, heck, look at Zhaitan. While constantly talked about as a single being, he is clearly made up out of multiple Dragons. Maybe he used to be multiple Dragons who got together and through some kind of ritual mass-suicide killed themselves and ascended/were reborn as this new Elder Dragon?

Multiple dragons? Is this true?

Eh, questionable, tbh. If you look at Zhaitan, he has four pairs of wings and tails, and has smaller heads coming out of his mouth. The concept art also had his skin looking like dragons (this did not translate into the game) with the design intent being that Zhaitan "is comprised of other dragons" - whether that aspect of the concept art made it into the end lore or not is, simply put, not very clear. So people tend to say that Zhaitan is some sort of coalescence of multiple dragon corpses. But honestly, it could just as easily be a case akin to

polycephaly

, much like a hydra.

Looking at the

render of his model

there definitely seems to be a "main" dragon to it but also multiple smaller dragons haphazardly making up the rest of his body (not just ones in his mouth). Not to mention that he seems to be "cut in half" in that he is an upper torso without a lower body.

.... Zhaitan is weird, man.Maybe the true deep sea dragon is actually Zhaitans lower body that he forgot when Orr rose from the ocean. I mean he was an

elder

dragon, old people forget stuff all the time.

Doubtful, I know this probably a joke post, however they advised several times that the Deep Sea Dragon should be confused with Zhaitan.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:Zhaitan the elder dragon is a singular entity, but his actual corpse is comprised of multiple dragons. It's obvious even from his model. Like the size variations from his multiple tails.

The tails would actually be in the argument against the notion of his body being comprised of multiple dragons. They may vary in size, but they're all the same style and design. Even the wings attached to two of them are similar to each other. This would meant that if Zhaitan was literally comprised of multiple dragons, the tails came from the same species of dragons.

That said, given that we got things like Deimos who looks like they could be a conglomerate of multiple things but is in fact one singular entity, or hydras which have multiple copies of limbs naturally, I wouldn't say having extra limbs or lumps that look like faces is a telltale sign of "being comprised of multiple things".