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@Anet Condi Engineer


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Only fun competetive pistol pistol build is... dead. Since release of PoF but it had its issues even before really, this build, which I consider most fun build in the game, is completely non existent. Why did you throw away only fun and interesting pistol pistol build? Can you please bring it back?

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Perhaps you could elaborate on the changes that occurred which made p/p not enjoyable. Was it changes to skills and traits, or did the meta shift in a way which made the build obsolete? What aspects of the build are being held back now when compared to before the launch of PoF?

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Even though it is not the most competitive of the group, I still find p/p to be very enjoyable as a build and it offers a lot of variants depending on what utilities that you pick, at least in my opinion.

Granted I've not played around with Holosmith (still), but I did not really enjoy Scrapper when I tried it out. The p/p build felt more natural to me. Granted that means I can't bunker or do amazing things solo, but it can be in and of it own a great support build. At least in my humble opinion.

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@Greener.6204 said:Perhaps you could elaborate on the changes that occurred which made p/p not enjoyable. Was it changes to skills and traits, or did the meta shift in a way which made the build obsolete? What aspects of the build are being held back now when compared to before the launch of PoF?

It's several things but I'll list the biggest issues I can think of right now:

  • you won't auto on pistol because pistol auto is terrible, grenade auto becomes the best option and it is still weak condition wise (shrapnel RNG dependant).
  • confusion got heavily nerfed in PvE making it obsolete to use with engi (pistol 3, concussion bomb), straight up DPS loss because you don't use the skills anymore and because that means autoing on bombs even more. In PvP it's also much weaker and has no coverage.
  • alacrity nerf on one of the most cooldown dependant rotations the game has ever had.
  • PoF powercreep that has several condition classes that put out way more damage much, much easier.
  • trait conflicts, IE thermal vision and PPD on the same tier, condition traits cannibalizing each other.
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@Greener.6204 said:Perhaps you could elaborate on the changes that occurred which made p/p not enjoyable. Was it changes to skills and traits, or did the meta shift in a way which made the build obsolete? What aspects of the build are being held back now when compared to before the launch of PoF?

Ignoring hardcore raiding dps races and thinking on PvP/WvW in general, I would maintain that p/p engie is no longer viable not due to nerfs, but because of one single other elite - scourge. Scourge made all other condi focused specs obsolete. Sure reaper was strong and dc was broken op before (dc reapers is the cause of the condi meta after all) but it still had a flaw in that it was all melee in shroud, whereas the p/p engie was more flexible between ranged and melee. No such thing for scourge, thus no pro in going condi engie.

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i was just talking about this in map chat last night. my condi eng is not working out. was told anet nerfed it. what sucked about it was i had all viper ascended accessories. now i have to start over with power accessories. i hope that makes the eng better cause i like playing it and would hate to delete the class. already deleted rev and mesmer. thinking about deleting the thief. gonna give the thief one more shot with a staff power build and see what happens.

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@Galaa.8475 said:i was just talking about this in map chat last night. my condi eng is not working out. was told anet nerfed it. what sucked about it was i had all viper ascended accessories. now i have to start over with power accessories. i hope that makes the eng better cause i like playing it and would hate to delete the class. already deleted rev and mesmer. thinking about deleting the thief. gonna give the thief one more shot with a staff power build and see what happens.

Why, in the name of all the gaming gods ever created, would you let someone tell you that a class you're enjoying isn't worth playing? If you're enjoying it, it's not a waste, because you're enjoying it, and if your circle of friends is claiming you're somehow dragging them down, I'd say you need a new circle of friends.

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Galaa.8475 said:i was just talking about this in map chat last night. my condi eng is not working out. was told anet nerfed it. what sucked about it was i had all viper ascended accessories. now i have to start over with power accessories. i hope that makes the eng better cause i like playing it and would hate to delete the class. already deleted rev and mesmer. thinking about deleting the thief. gonna give the thief one more shot with a staff power build and see what happens.

Why, in the name of all the gaming gods ever created, would you let someone tell you that a class you're enjoying isn't worth playing? If you're enjoying it, it's not a waste, because you're enjoying it, and if your circle of friends is claiming you're somehow dragging them down, I'd say you need a new circle of friends.

part of most people's enjoyment is being effective.

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@ratche.6204 said:I've been playing condi engineer since about the 3rd month of the game and I'm not stopping now. It will be back.

I was thinking the same thing. My engineer uses dual pistols (with the grenade kit as another option) because I don't enjoy any of the other weapons (although I'm currently working on making my 2nd engi a holosmith) and I'm not going to stop playing her any time soon. At the moment she's my designated daily achievement character, but may go back to general PvE soon.

I've never been one to worry about the meta game or flavour of the month builds, I just play what I enjoy and sometimes I hear it's good, sometimes it's bad, sometimes people act like they have never seen anything as strange as what I'm playing and they expect me to have some super-secret plan for a new meta-build and get even more confused when I say I have no idea what the numbers are but it's fun.

But I've very rarely encountered a build that was literally unplayable, and then it was relatively easy to fix (like using a different stat combination). With something like a weapon set there's always a way to make it work. It may not be the best possible combination, but it will get the job done and for me it's more important to enjoy what I'm doing than to play something boring and tell myself it's ok because at least it's over quickly. That's a job, not a game.

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@Danikat.8537 said:

@ratche.6204 said:I've been playing condi engineer since about the 3rd month of the game and I'm not stopping now. It will be back.

I was thinking the same thing. My engineer uses dual pistols (with the grenade kit as another option) because I don't enjoy any of the other weapons (although I'm currently working on making my 2nd engi a holosmith) and I'm not going to stop playing her any time soon. At the moment she's my designated daily achievement character, but may go back to general PvE soon.

I've never been one to worry about the meta game or flavour of the month builds, I just play what I enjoy and sometimes I hear it's good, sometimes it's bad, sometimes people act like they have never seen anything as strange as what I'm playing and they expect me to have some super-secret plan for a new meta-build and get even more confused when I say I have no idea what the numbers are but it's fun.

But I've very rarely encountered a build that was literally unplayable, and then it was relatively easy to fix (like using a different stat combination). With something like a weapon set there's always a way to make it work. It may not be the best possible combination, but it will get the job done and for me it's more important to enjoy what I'm doing than to play something boring and tell myself it's ok because at least it's over quickly. That's a job, not a game.

I'm with you there, I never really played the meta builds on my engi. Whatever I thew together worked great for me. I mean this was before raids, but for PvE and even high level fractals I didn't have problems with it. Besides nothing is more fun to me then switching between my kits and blowing stuff up or burning it down.

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@Lunateric.3708 said:

@"Galaa.8475" said:i was just talking about this in map chat last night. my condi eng is not working out. was told anet nerfed it. what sucked about it was i had all viper ascended accessories. now i have to start over with power accessories. i hope that makes the eng better cause i like playing it and would hate to delete the class. already deleted rev and mesmer. thinking about deleting the thief. gonna give the thief one more shot with a staff power build and see what happens.

Why, in the name of all the gaming gods ever created, would you let someone tell you that a class you're enjoying isn't worth playing? If you're enjoying it, it's not a waste, because you're enjoying it, and if your circle of friends is claiming you're somehow dragging them down, I'd say you need a new circle of friends.

part of most people's enjoyment is being effective.

So, what you're saying is that despite being ineffective, the poster was enjoying the class, but they can't be, because they weren't effective? Ineffective according to what? The meta? A build put up on a build site? Just curious, since I don't even have mine to 80 yet, too busy with other stuff, but I managed to complete one of those centaur zergs with five players in town on mine, when I've managed to fail it with 20 or so on my thief and ranger. I'm not seeing this ineffectiveness that the meta would claim, and that's mid 30s, I wonder how much stronger I'll be mid 60s, or at 80, when I've had a chance to really fill out a build.

On the subject of build, we have the accessory build, but I wonder, could they have improved on their character by swapping out some traits? Maybe they need different utilities? Maybe it's trying to run what the meta says they should be running that's literally shooting them in the foot? Maybe swapping a couple of runes etc would help, instead of the atypical "you're not hitting this dps threshold, so you suck" mentality? Because those are the people that are going to be speaking up the "loudest" in map chats about builds, because they don't want to accidentally wind up with someone that's not building the way they think they should. Anyone that's enjoying their build outside of that circle is going to be pretty quiet, because they don't want to be ridiculed. I saw this happening yesterday in Lion's Arch, where a guy asked about something one time, and this guy jumped on him with "maybe join a guild instead of complaining all day". The latter had logged in just in time to see the guy's one complaint about something, and said as much, but jumped on that elitist crap like he knew what was going on.

I'd be willing to bet that more than 60% of players running a "meta" build simply copied what someone else put on the internet, and don't have a clue about what anything else in their character is, let alone what it can do. I've seen it way too many times to believe otherwise. I was running a pure ranger AA in DDO once upon a time, and was told that they could "carry" me through a raid. At the end of the raid, the group leader apologized to me for his initial attitude, and asked me if I'd be willing to share my build with him, since it was working really well in difficult content, at level. The meta called for a couple of levels of monk, and to constantly have 10K stars and Many Shot running. Not doing that was considered "ineffective", because someone on the internet said so. My advice to people that are actually enjoying their classes is to stay with what you enjoy. Nobody's pointed out any rage timers that require a specific dps threshold, there's nothing on the actual content that states "you must hit this hard to complete this content", unlike in games like swtor, where they actually do have a minimum requirement for raids, et al, so the elitists can happily stay in their little circle, buying into the "but this is the best way ever" line. I'm not missing a thing by ignoring the meta, and if the poster I initially quoted was actually having fun on their class, they weren't either, until someone convinced them that they were.

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@"Galaa.8475" said:i was just talking about this in map chat last night. my condi eng is not working out. was told anet nerfed it. what sucked about it was i had all viper ascended accessories. now i have to start over with power accessories. i hope that makes the eng better cause i like playing it and would hate to delete the class. already deleted rev and mesmer. thinking about deleting the thief. gonna give the thief one more shot with a staff power build and see what happens.

Why, in the name of all the gaming gods ever created, would you let someone tell you that a class you're enjoying isn't worth playing? If you're enjoying it, it's not a waste, because you're enjoying it, and if your circle of friends is claiming you're somehow dragging them down, I'd say you need a new circle of friends.

part of most people's enjoyment is being effective.

So, what you're saying is that despite being ineffective, the poster was enjoying the class, but they can't be, because they weren't effective? Ineffective according to what? The meta? A build put up on a build site? Just curious, since I don't even have mine to 80 yet, too busy with other stuff, but I managed to complete one of those centaur zergs with five players in town on mine, when I've managed to fail it with 20 or so on my thief and ranger. I'm not seeing this ineffectiveness that the meta would claim, and that's mid 30s, I wonder how much stronger I'll be mid 60s, or at 80, when I've had a chance to really fill out a build.

On the subject of build, we have the accessory build, but I wonder, could they have improved on their character by swapping out some traits? Maybe they need different utilities? Maybe it's trying to run what the meta says they should be running that's literally shooting them in the foot? Maybe swapping a couple of runes etc would help, instead of the atypical "you're not hitting this dps threshold, so you suck" mentality? Because those are the people that are going to be speaking up the "loudest" in map chats about builds, because they don't want to accidentally wind up with someone that's not building the way they think they should. Anyone that's enjoying their build outside of that circle is going to be pretty quiet, because they don't want to be ridiculed. I saw this happening yesterday in Lion's Arch, where a guy asked about something one time, and this guy jumped on him with "maybe join a guild instead of complaining all day". The latter had logged in just in time to see the guy's one complaint about something, and said as much, but jumped on that elitist crap like he knew what was going on.

I'd be willing to bet that more than 60% of players running a "meta" build simply copied what someone else put on the internet, and don't have a clue about what anything else in their character is, let alone what it can do. I've seen it way too many times to believe otherwise. I was running a pure ranger AA in DDO once upon a time, and was told that they could "carry" me through a raid. At the end of the raid, the group leader apologized to me for his initial attitude, and asked me if I'd be willing to share my build with him, since it was working really well in difficult content, at level. The meta called for a couple of levels of monk, and to constantly have 10K stars and Many Shot running. Not doing that was considered "ineffective", because someone on the internet said so. My advice to people that are actually enjoying their classes is to stay with what you enjoy. Nobody's pointed out any rage timers that require a specific dps threshold, there's nothing on the actual content that states "you must hit this hard to complete this content", unlike in games like swtor, where they actually do have a minimum requirement for raids, et al, so the elitists can happily stay in their little circle, buying into the "but this is the best way ever" line. I'm not missing a thing by ignoring the meta, and if the poster I initially quoted was actually having fun on their class, they weren't either, until someone convinced them that they were.

I can't address an entire text wall of poorly made assumptions/made up stats, tbh. I merely stated the obvious: people find enjoyment in being effective; it's not hard to grasp. Effective is an objective parameter in a game ruled by math even though situations make adjusting needed in order to be effective in the first place IE adjusting to range when you can't melee, adjusting for stunbreaks on CC heavy situations and what not.

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@Lunateric.3708 said:

@"Galaa.8475" said:i was just talking about this in map chat last night. my condi eng is not working out. was told anet nerfed it. what sucked about it was i had all viper ascended accessories. now i have to start over with power accessories. i hope that makes the eng better cause i like playing it and would hate to delete the class. already deleted rev and mesmer. thinking about deleting the thief. gonna give the thief one more shot with a staff power build and see what happens.

Why, in the name of all the gaming gods ever created, would you let someone tell you that a class you're enjoying isn't worth playing? If you're enjoying it, it's not a waste, because you're enjoying it, and if your circle of friends is claiming you're somehow dragging them down, I'd say you need a new circle of friends.

part of most people's enjoyment is being effective.

So, what you're saying is that despite being ineffective, the poster was enjoying the class, but they can't be, because they weren't effective? Ineffective according to what? The meta? A build put up on a build site? Just curious, since I don't even have mine to 80 yet, too busy with other stuff, but I managed to complete one of those centaur zergs with five players in town on mine, when I've managed to fail it with 20 or so on my thief and ranger. I'm not seeing this ineffectiveness that the meta would claim, and that's mid 30s, I wonder how much stronger I'll be mid 60s, or at 80, when I've had a chance to really fill out a build.

On the subject of build, we have the accessory build, but I wonder, could they have improved on their character by swapping out some traits? Maybe they need different utilities? Maybe it's trying to run what the meta says they should be running that's literally shooting them in the foot? Maybe swapping a couple of runes etc would help, instead of the atypical "you're not hitting this dps threshold, so you suck" mentality? Because those are the people that are going to be speaking up the "loudest" in map chats about builds, because they don't want to accidentally wind up with someone that's not building the way they think they should. Anyone that's enjoying their build outside of that circle is going to be pretty quiet, because they don't want to be ridiculed. I saw this happening yesterday in Lion's Arch, where a guy asked about something one time, and this guy jumped on him with "maybe join a guild instead of complaining all day". The latter had logged in just in time to see the guy's one complaint about something, and said as much, but jumped on that elitist crap like he knew what was going on.

I'd be willing to bet that more than 60% of players running a "meta" build simply copied what someone else put on the internet, and don't have a clue about what anything else in their character is, let alone what it can do. I've seen it way too many times to believe otherwise. I was running a pure ranger AA in DDO once upon a time, and was told that they could "carry" me through a raid. At the end of the raid, the group leader apologized to me for his initial attitude, and asked me if I'd be willing to share my build with him, since it was working really well in difficult content, at level. The meta called for a couple of levels of monk, and to constantly have 10K stars and Many Shot running. Not doing that was considered "ineffective", because someone on the internet said so. My advice to people that are actually enjoying their classes is to stay with what you enjoy. Nobody's pointed out any rage timers that require a specific dps threshold, there's nothing on the actual content that states "you must hit this hard to complete this content", unlike in games like swtor, where they actually do have a minimum requirement for raids, et al, so the elitists can happily stay in their little circle, buying into the "but this is the best way ever" line. I'm not missing a thing by ignoring the meta, and if the poster I initially quoted was actually having fun on their class, they weren't either, until someone convinced them that they were.

I can't address an entire text wall of poorly made assumptions/made up stats, tbh. I merely stated the obvious: people find enjoyment in being effective; it's not hard to grasp. Effective is an objective parameter in a game ruled by math even though situations make adjusting needed in order to be effective in the first place IE adjusting to range when you can't melee, adjusting for stunbreaks on CC heavy situations and what not.

Where's the math? I'll keep it short for ya', since I asked, but that was a "poorly made assumption"?

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Did ArenaNet remove the ability for Engineers to use Pistols in both hands? No, they did not. Don't believe me? Try equipping pistols. You'll find they very much do equip in both main and off hand slots for an Engineer. They even have the same skills they had before. Numbers add up the same too, spread out differently, but fully functional.

So how exactly did they "take away" Pistol Engineer? Sounds to me like YOU took it away. YOU don't like your build anymore. YOU are choosing not to adapt your chosen style. YOU are unwilling to grow and evolve. Metas change, and you must change with them. Tweak the build until you're happy or scrap it and find a new one you do like.

Also, you're in the wrong forum, mate. Engineer "discussion" is over there: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/categories/engineer

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@"robertthebard.8150" said:Nobody's pointed out any rage timers that require a specific dps threshold, there's nothing on the actual content that states "you must hit this hard to complete this content", unlike in games like swtor, where they actually do have a minimum requirement for raids, et al, so the elitists can happily stay in their little circle, buying into the "but this is the best way ever" line. I'm not missing a thing by ignoring the meta, and if the poster I initially quoted was actually having fun on their class, they weren't either, until someone convinced them that they were.

Except that all bosses have enrage timers. Condi engi has the most complicated and mechanically demanding Rotation in the game. Even if executed to full perfection which never happens in a real raid anyways it offers low tier damage and almost no support."Damage doesn't matter that much anyways" like some people like to say. But try LFG raids on saturday afternoons and you see what happens when multiple people with that attitude join a single group.DPS is so low that gorseval becomes unkillable or people start to fail cannons when you fight sabetha for 7min+. Thats when the underperforming players get blamed usually but you can't really blame the "toxic" players for that. They maybe have a limited playtime aswell and maybe just don't enjoy players on their Special snowflake builds.Condi engi is in pve from an objective standpoint just trash right now. I played it for a really long time. Long time during classic and entire hots period. The last alacrity and confusion nerfs were just the last few points in a history of nerfs.This game has a history of engineer hate though. They bugged bombs for months. They just fell through the map on most places. Scrapper at current state is just useless and i don't even know what it is supposed to do. It has a profession mechanic that is basically a revive bot or bugged but usually bugged.They made spellbreaker as a pvp focused spec but it is super good in pve aswell now. Scrapper isn't even good in pvp.

Core problems with condi engi are the lack of a proper auto attack, weak traits, underpowered skills and out of place traits in general. Condi and power skills are all over the place. Kits are usually both power and condi except for the flame thrower. Thats why you end up with all kits on the bar while only 1-2 skills per kit are used.But i am honestly scared if they try to touch kits because they will most likely murder holosmith in the process.

But maybe Engineer was intended to be more hybrid with power and condition skills so that the kits and weapons make sense. If only the traits would make sense. Hybrid builds usually need one strong condition which can be condition capped with runes and sigils but engineer has bleeding and burning. And the burning duration trait directly competes with modified ammunition, a potential 26% damage modifier.Thermal Vision is also questionable in the place it currently is. It directly competes with Pinpoint which is also a really strong condi damage trait. Thermal Vision also offers Expertise which is really annoying to gear for on a situational trait.

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Where's the math? I'll keep it short for ya', since I asked, but that was a "poorly made assumption"?

You know there is a dps Golem where you can see how bad condi engi is. There are also damage meters which directly show the Performance in a real scenario. But since it requires a stationary target and has a complex rotation it performs even worse in a raid.

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@"Trise.2865" said:Did ArenaNet remove the ability for Engineers to use Pistols in both hands? No, they did not. Don't believe me? Try equipping pistols. You'll find they very much do equip in both main and off hand slots for an Engineer. They even have the same skills they had before. Numbers add up the same too, spread out differently, but fully functional.

So how exactly did they "take away" Pistol Engineer? Sounds to me like YOU took it away. YOU don't like your build anymore. YOU are choosing not to adapt your chosen style. YOU are unwilling to grow and evolve. Metas change, and you must change with them. Tweak the build until you're happy or scrap it and find a new one you do like.

Also, you're in the wrong forum, mate. Engineer "discussion" is over there: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/categories/engineer

The tweak to condi engi double pistol is power holo on engineer. Its just better in every game mode.

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@Lunateric.3708 said:

@"Galaa.8475" said:i was just talking about this in map chat last night. my condi eng is not working out. was told anet nerfed it. what sucked about it was i had all viper ascended accessories. now i have to start over with power accessories. i hope that makes the eng better cause i like playing it and would hate to delete the class. already deleted rev and mesmer. thinking about deleting the thief. gonna give the thief one more shot with a staff power build and see what happens.

Why, in the name of all the gaming gods ever created, would you let someone tell you that a class you're enjoying isn't worth playing? If you're enjoying it, it's not a waste, because you're enjoying it, and if your circle of friends is claiming you're somehow dragging them down, I'd say you need a new circle of friends.

part of most people's enjoyment is being effective.

So, what you're saying is that despite being ineffective, the poster was enjoying the class, but they can't be, because they weren't effective? Ineffective according to what? The meta? A build put up on a build site? Just curious, since I don't even have mine to 80 yet, too busy with other stuff, but I managed to complete one of those centaur zergs with five players in town on mine, when I've managed to fail it with 20 or so on my thief and ranger. I'm not seeing this ineffectiveness that the meta would claim, and that's mid 30s, I wonder how much stronger I'll be mid 60s, or at 80, when I've had a chance to really fill out a build.

On the subject of build, we have the accessory build, but I wonder, could they have improved on their character by swapping out some traits? Maybe they need different utilities? Maybe it's trying to run what the meta says they should be running that's literally shooting them in the foot? Maybe swapping a couple of runes etc would help, instead of the atypical "you're not hitting this dps threshold, so you suck" mentality? Because those are the people that are going to be speaking up the "loudest" in map chats about builds, because they don't want to accidentally wind up with someone that's not building the way they think they should. Anyone that's enjoying their build outside of that circle is going to be pretty quiet, because they don't want to be ridiculed. I saw this happening yesterday in Lion's Arch, where a guy asked about something one time, and this guy jumped on him with "maybe join a guild instead of complaining all day". The latter had logged in just in time to see the guy's one complaint about something, and said as much, but jumped on that elitist crap like he knew what was going on.

I'd be willing to bet that more than 60% of players running a "meta" build simply copied what someone else put on the internet, and don't have a clue about what anything else in their character is, let alone what it can do. I've seen it way too many times to believe otherwise. I was running a pure ranger AA in DDO once upon a time, and was told that they could "carry" me through a raid. At the end of the raid, the group leader apologized to me for his initial attitude, and asked me if I'd be willing to share my build with him, since it was working really well in difficult content, at level. The meta called for a couple of levels of monk, and to constantly have 10K stars and Many Shot running. Not doing that was considered "ineffective", because someone on the internet said so. My advice to people that are actually enjoying their classes is to stay with what you enjoy. Nobody's pointed out any rage timers that require a specific dps threshold, there's nothing on the actual content that states "you must hit this hard to complete this content", unlike in games like swtor, where they actually do have a minimum requirement for raids, et al, so the elitists can happily stay in their little circle, buying into the "but this is the best way ever" line. I'm not missing a thing by ignoring the meta, and if the poster I initially quoted was actually having fun on their class, they weren't either, until someone convinced them that they were.

I can't address an entire text wall of poorly made assumptions/made up stats, tbh. I merely stated the obvious: people find enjoyment in being effective; it's not hard to grasp. Effective is an objective parameter in a game ruled by math even though situations make adjusting needed in order to be effective in the first place IE adjusting to range when you can't melee, adjusting for stunbreaks on CC heavy situations and what not.

Yes effective can be an objective metric...but almost every possible build in the game is objectively effective (obviously some more so than others).

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@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Nobody's pointed out any rage timers that require a specific dps threshold, there's nothing on the actual content that states "you must hit this hard to complete this content", unlike in games like swtor, where they actually do have a minimum requirement for raids, et al, so the elitists can happily stay in their little circle, buying into the "but this is the best way ever" line. I'm not missing a thing by ignoring the meta, and if the poster I initially quoted was actually having fun on their class, they weren't either, until someone convinced them that they were.

Except that all bosses have enrage timers. Condi engi has the most complicated and mechanically demanding Rotation in the game. Even if executed to full perfection which never happens in a real raid anyways it offers low tier damage and almost no support."Damage doesn't matter that much anyways" like some people like to say. But try LFG raids on saturday afternoons and you see what happens when multiple people with that attitude join a single group.DPS is so low that gorseval becomes unkillable or people start to fail cannons when you fight sabetha for 7min+. Thats when the underperforming players get blamed usually but you can't really blame the "toxic" players for that. They maybe have a limited playtime aswell and maybe just don't enjoy players on their Special snowflake builds.Condi engi is in pve from an objective standpoint just trash right now. I played it for a really long time. Long time during classic and entire hots period. The last alacrity and confusion nerfs were just the last few points in a history of nerfs.This game has a history of engineer hate though. They bugged bombs for months. They just fell through the map on most places. Scrapper at current state is just useless and i don't even know what it is supposed to do. It has a profession mechanic that is basically a revive bot or bugged but usually bugged.They made spellbreaker as a pvp focused spec but it is super good in pve aswell now. Scrapper isn't even good in pvp.

Core problems with condi engi are the lack of a proper auto attack, weak traits, underpowered skills and out of place traits in general. Condi and power skills are all over the place. Kits are usually both power and condi except for the flame thrower. Thats why you end up with all kits on the bar while only 1-2 skills per kit are used.But i am honestly scared if they try to touch kits because they will most likely murder holosmith in the process.

But maybe Engineer was intended to be more hybrid with power and condition skills so that the kits and weapons make sense. If only the traits would make sense. Hybrid builds usually need one strong condition which can be condition capped with runes and sigils but engineer has bleeding and burning. And the burning duration trait directly competes with modified ammunition, a potential 26% damage modifier.Thermal Vision is also questionable in the place it currently is. It directly competes with Pinpoint which is also a really strong condi damage trait. Thermal Vision also offers Expertise which is really annoying to gear for on a situational trait.

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Where's the math? I'll keep it short for ya', since I asked, but that was a "poorly made assumption"?

You know there is a dps Golem where you can see how bad condi engi is. There are also damage meters which directly show the Performance in a real scenario. But since it requires a stationary target and has a complex rotation it performs even worse in a raid.

What's really funny to me is that initially I felt the same way about a pistol thief as the op did about engineer. "It's not working out well" I told myself, and swapped to daggers, then went Daredevil when I hit 80. I got curious about Deadeye, so I rolled a new thief to give it a shot. I made myself use pistols to get used to the idea of being ranged, and while I like the short bow, it wasn't going to give me the "feeling" I was looking for. 80 levels later, and was I ever mistaken about how well it can function.

On the topic at hand, I'm not seeing a lack of a "proper" auto attack. If I let it, it would continuously fire it's pistol, that's what it's auto attack is, and it's the same for all the classes, just a basic attack with the equipped weapon. So I guess my next question is "What is meant by 'proper' auto attack"? As far as damage output goes, I can get plenty of output with a couple of turrets down. That's how we managed to five man a centaur zerg, that and I kept a healing turret and the air drop down as soon as I could drop 'em. The last time I checked, effective meant able to complete content, in an MMO vernacular. So we were able to complete the centaur zerg, but according to what I'm reading here, we shouldn't have been able to, there's no way that my engi should have been able to keep up, according to the premise of the thread.

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@"robertthebard.8150" said:On the topic at hand, I'm not seeing a lack of a "proper" auto attack. If I let it, it would continuously fire it's pistol, that's what it's auto attack is, and it's the same for all the classes, just a basic attack with the equipped weapon. So I guess my next question is "What is meant by 'proper' auto attack"? As far as damage output goes, I can get plenty of output with a couple of turrets down. That's how we managed to five man a centaur zerg, that and I kept a healing turret and the air drop down as soon as I could drop 'em. The last time I checked, effective meant able to complete content, in an MMO vernacular. So we were able to complete the centaur zerg, but according to what I'm reading here, we shouldn't have been able to, there's no way that my engi should have been able to keep up, according to the premise of the thread.

You can pretty much solo most of the open world Events. Try to play that build in t4 fractals, challenge modes, raids or ranked. Turrets don't scale with engineer stats so the only half decent dps turret is flame turret because the condi scales with the Engineer. And even that gets outshined by kits.I'm pretty sure your engi is on healing druid damage Level. Also you don't have to guess or feel how much damage skills do. You can measure it and pistol aa is just super bad. Thats why condi engi uses grenade aa in pve which is slightly less bad but still not good. Well you can't really use them in pvp.

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Oh my god. I cannot believe how dumb people are here. For all of you who suggest to just ignore meta, to just play for fun, you are the reason why this game is shittier and shittier every god damn year. You are the people who will buy lootbox mounts. You are the people spending hundreds of euros on god damn cosmetics. Of course I can still play pistol pistol engi. However not in the content that I enjoy. You know. End game. You people have probably never been to higher fractal tier than 1 and have never done raid in your life. Welcome to MMORPGs.

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