Why are guns used in Tyria?

[cyhadam.3082]

If guns exist in Tyria, why does it make sense to use swords or shields? Are the guns and pistols not as powerful as I think? Thanks.

[Oglaf.1074]

@"cyhadam.3082" said:If guns exist in Tyria, why does it make sense to use swords or shields? Are the guns and pistols not as powerful as I think? Thanks.

Same reason why it takes multiple stabs of a Sword to kill someone rather than just one gut-stab: realism has to take the backseat in favour of gameplay.

Really, the interesting question about firearms in Tyria is why they seemingly skipped Crossbows. They are a natural mid-point in the "evolution" between Bows and Firearms and their absence is really, really odd!

[cyhadam.3082]

Ok but still guns vs swords, guns would win. There was no need for anet to add guns for gameplay.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@cyhadam.3082 said:If guns exist in Tyria, why does it make sense to use swords or shields? Are the guns and pistols not as powerful as I think? Thanks.Same reason people still carried traditional weaponry when guns were first introduced in the real world. Early guns kind of sucked, a lot.

[cyhadam.3082]

Ok this is what I was thinking makes sense.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Might as well be asking "In a world with magic, why does anyone bother with swords and bandages?"

There is no simple answer beyond "flavor of the gameplay" really. But if you want a lore explanation there's a wide variety of possibilities: accessibility and manuefacturing (a sword will always be easier to buy or make than a gun), reliability (in our history, early guns were really slow to reload, with a single shot and not that great accuracy), and the nature of foes being fought (a piercing gunshot does less damage to a crystalline monster than being able to chop off limbs) are all pretty likely candidates.

Then there's also the fact that you might as well ask that very question of why we still have swords and knives in our modern military. Even going into history, officers having swords were common practice in the American Revolution and American Civil War. Even in modern times, guns are not reliable enough to rely solely on them for combative purposes. You may not bring a knife to a gun fight if you had a gun handy, but if that gun is no longer handy you'll want that knife over bare fists.

[Cuddy.6247]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Might as well be asking "In a world with magic, why does anyone bother with swords and bandages?"

There is no simple answer beyond "flavor of the gameplay" really. But if you want a lore explanation there's a wide variety of possibilities: accessibility and manuefacturing (a sword will always be easier to buy or make than a gun), reliability (in our history, early guns were really slow to reload, with a single shot and not that great accuracy), and the nature of foes being fought (a piercing gunshot does less damage to a crystalline monster than being able to chop off limbs) are all pretty likely candidates.

Then there's also the fact that you might as well ask that very question of why we still have swords and knives in our modern military. Even going into history, officers having swords were common practice in the American Revolution and American Civil War. Even in modern times, guns are not reliable enough to rely solely on them for combative purposes. You may not bring a knife to a gun fight if you had a gun handy, but if that gun is no longer handy you'll want that knife over bare fists.

Knives are given to modern personnel because knives are an extremely useful tool. Nobody's issuing a knife for combat purposes.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Cuddy.6247 said:Nobody's issuing a knife for combat purposes.

While the primary purpose of issuing knives is for other things, that doesn't mean knives cannot be used for combat purposes should the need arise, however. Which was more the point I was getting across.

[Toolbox.9375]

Y'ever used Pistols or Rifles in-game? Darn straight they're not powerful. :[

[ugrakarma.9416]

Probably slow reload time. in our "real world", theres a mid-term in use of guns+melee fights in something like XV-XVIII era because reload of guns was slow.

But guns arent underused, The Pact always seems very prone to try the use of massive firepower.The Claw of Jourmag boss had flametrowers, grenades etc. Theres Tequalt with some sorte of Hylek Artillery + Asura "energy" cannons..and theres the failed attempt of air bombing of Mordremoth.

[Ayakaru.6583]

The first generation of guns in real life were weak, clunky, and difficult to operate.Hence they were sometimes used for no more purpose than intimidation, or scaring cavalry.I think the metallic guns in gw2 are post that generation, but not swift or deadly enough yet.The asuran weapons would fire concentrated magic/energy,but most people probably have some thin veil of magic as a barrier or something

[Dewsitine.3645]

I think as other have said the gun tech is not that high at least in the using actual ammo and not using magic as the medium to fire projectiles of magic or material made bullets. All the models have a single barrel with a flintlock style which might mean that they might be at the beginning of the period where gun makers start making weird looking guns, the multi barrel like duck gun or was it call the bill gun, to allow people fire more rounds that will hopefully lead into cased ammunition with magazines and clips following suit.

Also, it seems like society as a whole still has to make the transition as hopefully guns become more advance and provide a better firepower with a fraction of time investment required to master weapons. So it could be that traditions still hold up swords and bows in a better light with norns probably being the last group to finally make either 3/4 or full switch from swords and bows to guns after they eclipse them.

Maybe in GW3, if we will ever get one or not, will have more advance weapons with a primary focus of it on guns while swords and bows play secondary role.

[Narcemus.1348]

I think one point not brought up is Magic. There are tons of skills that block or reflect projectiles. This makes being able to get in close range necessary to make an impact in battle.

[Fluffball.8307]

@Narcemus.1348 said:I think one point not brought up is Magic. There are tons of skills that block or reflect projectiles. This makes being able to get in close range necessary to make an impact in battle.

Probably even more relevant is that all the players uses magic in combat anyway. The actual weapon is less important than the magic you use to enhance your combat. Charr as a race, on the other hand, use guns because they don't use magic at all.

[EdwinLi.1284]

There are many reason why Swords, axes and etc are still used despite the development of guns but the major factor is the influence of Magic and how power it still is compared to Guns.

Magic has a great influence over the advancement of Technology in Tyria since Magic can already perform task that advancement in Science and Technology would take time to discover. For combat use, Guns are limited by their design when it comes to their power and if they are not designed to shoot something that can ignore magic protection or prevent their projectile from being reflected back at the user then Bullets do not have much use since they will not be able to penetrate a Magic shield. Not to mention the impact of the bullet is based on the gun's design as well.

However, something like a sword has its power based on the user's strength (and magical potenial) and design thus it is not bound to only its own design to determine the strength of every hit. A Gun can incorporate magic as the ammo, as shown by mesmers, so the power of the projctile can be based on the user themselves but there is currently not much knowledge how to incoporate Magic into guns currently except for the limited amount of knowledge by Mesers with their Pistols.

Then there is the issue of ammunition which is limited on Guns unless they can incorporate Magic as a ammunition. A Gun is only useful for how much ammo the user has on them and once they run out of ammo then they are left with only the gun itself only. However, with a sword the user can always have something sharp to always aim for the fatal blow.

Asura technology has advanced to incorporate magical energy as ammo into their Guns but we seen that their effectiveness if best for range combat and if enemies were to have a strong protection from projectiles or the impact of the Guns then the only options left will be to use a weapon that can cause a stronger impact than the Gun itself which in most case is a person using their own strength to create a strong melee impact with a sword or etc.

We also learn through the side events in the world that not all people have magical potential which force them to rely on talents that are not magic based, such as Warrior and Engineer., to cover their weakness for lacking magical potential. If anything the advancement of Gun technology is mostly to provide a alternative to the magic in combat for people that lack magical potential.

[Fluffball.8307]

@EdwinLi.1284 said:but there is currently not much knowledge how to incoporate Magic into guns currently except for the limited amount of knowledge by Mesers with their Pistols.

Thieves, engineers, and warriors all use magic when fighting with firearms and guns as was stated by the devs, and most (all?) Pact guns incorporate magic. Even the pact firearm models are magic in appearance for whatever that's worth. Obviously the guns that took down Zhaitan were magic.

The only reason charr as a general race concept don't use magic with their firearms and guns is because they are specifically rejecting it, but all the other races and PCs use magic.

[EdwinLi.1284]

@Fluffball.8307 said:

Thieves, engineers, and warriors all use magic when fighting with firearms and guns as was stated by the devs, and most (all?) Pact guns incorporate magic. Even the pact firearm models are magic in appearance for whatever that's worth. Obviously the guns that took down Zhaitan were magic.

The only reason charr as a general race concept don't use magic with their firearms and guns is because they are specifically rejecting it, but all the other races and PCs use magic.

Yes but the knowledge to properly use Magic into Guns was limited until GW2 Zhaitan Arc started.

Engineer's do not use magic in their Guns but they modified their guns to handle multiple ammo types and use specialized ammo designed to perform these things we see them do. Every Gun attack from Engineer is actually a specialized ammo.

Thieves do not use magic in their guns as well as their shadow abilites when used with a a pistol equipped comes from their sword/daggers while their pistol used normal bullets and a specialized smoke bullet. Rifle use normal bullets as well.

Warriors also do not use Magic for their guns but use normal bullets and the ability to shoot a magical fire bullet for Berserker is a more recent ability learned during HoT Storyline due to the development of Elite Specs after the Zhaitan Campaign in Tyria. Elite Specs from HoT are actually recently created abilities in Tyria after Zhaitan's defeat lore wise due to demand for improving combat ability against Zhaitan and surviving the Jungle during Mordremoth Campaign.

We are currently in the turning point in Tyria's advancement with Technology and Science since the creation of the Pact in Zhaitan Arc has motivated and increased the demand for advancing thing such as Gun Technology. Before the Pact was formed Magic was still the major factor preventing advancement in things such as Gun technology and incorportating Magic into Guns but once the Pact was formed more technology allowing Magic to be incorporated into Guns became developed.

If we compare Tyria to how it is before during the Zhaitan Arc and then compare it now, we can actually see a major difference in Technology and Science inolving things such as Guns. During Zhaitan Arc a lot of Magic incorporated Guns were new technology developed for the purpose of fighting Elder Dragon Minions. Now Magic incorporated weapons (such as Magic guns) are more common thanks to Magic Guns becoming standard weapons after the success of the Zhaitan Campaign.

[Fluffball.8307]

@EdwinLi.1284 said:post

The devs have said all of the player abilities are enhanced with magic, which is pretty apparent to me when you look at the skills. You can't do poisonous 5-way spread shots with a .38 special (which is way more technologically advanced than a musket.) Warriors don't have unblockable semi-automatic carbines, they have magic.

[Crinn.7864]

@cyhadam.3082 said:If guns exist in Tyria, why does it make sense to use swords or shields? Are the guns and pistols not as powerful as I think? Thanks.

Because guns aren't actually that good? Guns did not replace bows because guns are better, guns replaced bows because it requires significantly less training to use a gun at a acceptable level than it does to use a bow. To use a Longbow at a proficient level requires a couple years of training to master, while teaching someone to use a gun takes but a few days training. Guns allowed nations to change their militarys from extremely small but elite groups whos numbers where generally counted in the hundreds, to large armies of conscripts who numbered in the thousands.

As for guns vs swords, the reason soldiers where not equipped with swords was because it's cheaper to equip all your musketeers with bayonets than it is to equip them with swords. Also using a sword well requires lots of training and sparring, while bayonets require almost no training.

[Rognik.2579]

@EdwinLi.1284 You also forgot that mesmers can use a pistol offhand, and one of their abilities is literally called "magic bullet". I think we've been able to channel magic into firearms from the start, and it's more artillery that was tricky until recently. Even then, the turrets are pretty magical.

[derd.6413]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@cyhadam.3082 said:If guns exist in Tyria, why does it make sense to use swords or shields? Are the guns and pistols not as powerful as I think? Thanks.

Because guns aren't actually that good? Guns did not replace bows because guns are better, guns replaced bows because it requires significantly less training to use a gun at a acceptable level than it does to use a bow. To use a Longbow at a proficient level requires a couple years of training to master, while teaching someone to use a gun takes but a few days training. Guns allowed nations to change their militarys from extremely small but elite groups whos numbers where generally counted in the hundreds, to large armies of conscripts who numbered in the thousands.

i think that since all attacks are 'magically enhanced' it's not unreasonable to assume that guns are more difficult to apply magic on making guns and bows equally difficult to use and equally effective because magic. (hence why bows and guns could co-exist in tyria)

[draxynnic.3719]

One thing that I haven't seen brought up is that armour technology appears to be significantly greater in Tyria than in the historical Renaissance and early modern era. Guns defeated armour historically because a point was reached where, although steel armour could still be made that worked, it was so heavy that it was no longer worth it. When Tyria has access to the likes of darksteel, mithril, orichalcum, and Deldrimor steel, it's possible that it's still quite practical to make armour that can hold up against bullets... even magically enhanced ones. But the same exotic materials can be used for making swords and hammers.

@Crinn.7864 said:

@cyhadam.3082 said:If guns exist in Tyria, why does it make sense to use swords or shields? Are the guns and pistols not as powerful as I think? Thanks.

Because guns aren't actually that good? Guns did not replace bows because guns are better, guns replaced bows because it requires significantly less training to use a gun at a acceptable level than it does to use a bow. To use a Longbow at a proficient level requires a couple years of training to master, while teaching someone to use a gun takes but a few days training. Guns allowed nations to change their militarys from extremely small but elite groups whos numbers where generally counted in the hundreds, to large armies of conscripts who numbered in the thousands.

As for guns vs swords, the reason soldiers where not equipped with swords was because it's cheaper to equip all your musketeers with bayonets than it is to equip them with swords. Also using a sword well requires lots of training and sparring, while bayonets require almost no training.

Bayonets were also used because it allowed musketeers to also act as ersatz pikemen, and in most battlefield situations, a unit of spearmen is more tactically useful than a unit of swordsmen - swords are generally better for single combat situations, or at least in situations where you don't need to worry about enemy cavalry. Socket bayonets also made it so that soldiers could still shoot while remaining ready for a possible melee engagement.

[Oglaf.1074]

@"EdwinLi.1284" said:Warriors also do not use Magic for their guns but use normal bullets and the ability to shoot a magical fire bullet for Berserker is a more recent ability learned during HoT Storyline due to the development of Elite Specs after the Zhaitan Campaign in Tyria. Elite Specs from HoT are actually recently created abilities in Tyria after Zhaitan's defeat lore wise due to demand for improving combat ability against Zhaitan and surviving the Jungle during Mordremoth Campaign.

The Berserker-y stuff isn't really magic, but rather be implied to be the trope of channeling "Anger" into your weapons common to the class archetype.

[Telwyn.1630]

How long in till automated machine guns are invented storywise it would change the way of warfare from an adventure to survival i mean the charr have tanks already and they now have airships now, if machine guns are invented it would all to well change how they fight and make melee combat rare and for mostly the specialist melee fighters . I mean lets picture a male human in his early to mid 20s from our world somehow ends up in tyria and has a m16 machine gun as his main weapon and is fully armed is part of the U.S military even on another planet and has zero contact with earth and cannot get back to earth, He has no idea how he even got to Tyria or if he can get back to earth and depending on what he dose in Tyria weather hiding and or fighting the various enemies well he be a target to anyone who can get there hands on his weapons as they are unfamiliar with a machine gun but the idea to mass produce it and use it would be to big a chance to pass up.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

For the same reason you still use a sword in pirate games like Assassin's Creed Black Flag and Risen Dark Waters.

In GW2 we may not have ammo clips (pistols and rifles should have ammo clips with unlimited ammo, though, so they have to reload every X shots and get an opening like with the third attacks in melee autoattack chains). And guns are rather quick.

But that's just mechanics. In the lore guns are slower. So by the time you recharge your flintlock, a warrior has jumped on your face with a sword.

Add magic to the mix, and there's no point on using just guns when a mesmer can Feedback all the bullets you shoot back to your brains. Better to have an alternate weapon set without them.