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We need an alternative to Conquest (and here is a way to do it)


Zietlogik.6208
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Conquest is currently 5 players occasionally in the same place, but usually are in separate areas of the map being proficient at a specific role. Currently GW2 does not have a gamemode that rewards proper teamplay and team momentum, it relies on individuals to increase the likelihood of success in a team environment.

If the 1 person who is pushing far fails, or the 1 to hold home cannot, it does not change the dynamic of the team, it simply means 1 person goes to replace them in order to meet the "standing in circles" quota to gain points while someone respawns.

There is no incentive or benefit to having 5 players working together as a team, in fact it is discouraged, it rewards 1 person being good in 1 place, 1 person being good in another place, and a few other people moving around to fill in those 2 gaps as required, there is not much in terms of momentum, there is no real gain or loss other than map control, no push or pull, the gamemode will always feel stagnant and neutral at its core due to the only goal being "tick points to 500"

This is not black and white though, there is not much leniency between team cohesion in its objectives, there is only so much a team can cushion 1 person not pulling their weight due to the clock always being against you (points tick). People always use Mobas as an example, so my example would be 1 lane losing in a Moba, but still performing their role adequately in the team fight phase (tank, etc), since the overall gamemode objective is not about being proficient in a solo setting (aside from split pushing), it narrows into a team focused gamemode at its core.

Legacy of the Foefire is the closest thing we have to this. If the middle conquest node was the only node active, but gave no points, and the side nodes simply provided boons/buffs (similar to Forest) and capturing the middle node opened the gate to the enemy base, this would turn the gamemode into a more Team Deathmatch oriented mode with an emphasis of teamwork to kill the enemy lord, which would be the new objective in winning the match.

If one team gains mid control and starts to gain momentum and push into the enemy base, this would either prompt a full team fight to regain momentum, or the use of a "split pusher" to neutralize the mid cap to close the gate preventing respawns from entering or possibly splitting the enemy team on their push.

Whereas the side points could, over time, change or become stronger to aid in a team building the momentum to make the next push, or be taken to slow the enemy teams gain to even out the match and create counter push scenarios.

I am sure there are flaws, and potential exploits with something not fully fleshed out, but with the help of the community we could help create something that could be an interesting alternative to the current sPvP staple mode.

This mode would be the equivalent of Random Arenas / Team Arenas / ByoB days in GW1 compared to Conquest being the equivalent of GvG or HoH in terms of communication and entry level.

What would you add or subtract to make it more interesting?

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What's with all the complaining about conquest lately?LIke sure, having additional gamemodes would be nice, but conquest is far more competitive than TDM by miles.It adds far more layers of complexity to the mode than TDM ever could (in a makro-gameplay kinda sense).

Just some examples from the top of my head:

  • rotations matter
  • map awareness matters
  • Although snowballing is still a thing....TDM is WAAAAAY MORE one sided
  • it provides far more roles than TDM

That last point is especially important. Just look at the WvW meta. Its far more restricting than the sPvP one. Especially considering, that something like hammer rev and staff ele simply doesn't work in smallscale 5v5-settings....so thats even fewer viable builds. For all-out 5v5 combat you just need support/healers and DPS.Sure, one could always argue that this is just tied to conquest-centric balance....but giving each class a viable teamfight-build wouldn't really change anything since people will still opt for the best DPS / support options only anyway (even if the margin between S- and A-tier would only be 5%).

TDM isn't really fun in a 5v5 setting. On a larger scale however (10v10 or 15v15), it could be interesting but there is WvW for that after all, so it's a tough sell for a sPvP mode.

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@BikeIsGone.8675 said:What's with all the complaining about conquest lately?

Its nothing new really. There have been complaints about conquest since the game launched. The mode was designed for esports in mind....you can kind of tell. The thing is since the mode was designed around esports this also means it was designed with communication in mind. Something that is missing when grouping with randoms in ranked arena. My suggestion is they leave conquest for ATs and just give ranked arenas something else. Maybe a refined stronghold type maps would be a better alternative.

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The problem with Conquest Only is that it creates this "chasing the meta" feeling where you generally ALWAYS need certain roles (decapper, plus oner, bunker, etc) and other roles/professions/builds will just NEVER be "optimal" ... so I think conquest is fine for competitive play (which is what PvP was intended to be) ... but now that GW2 is about the furthest thing from anything actually competitive (solo-q and competitive don't go together) Anet is in a pickle.

If the random queue was filled with 5 or 6 different game modes (especially ones with 8v8 or 10v10, etc) then we'd see TONS more builds. Leave conquest to pre-made teams only who are actually trying to compete and win against other coordinated teams.

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There's usually not an incentive to have 5 players working as a team, but there's always a big benefit to having 4 players working together as a team. Just because you can't 5-man a point doesn't mean it's all up to individual players.. you made a huge leap there. "Currently GW2 does not have a gamemode that rewards proper teamplay and team momentum", uh no. Have a person on a side-node role and teamfight to your heart's content if that's what floats your boat.

You can also choose to play on 3 points which is quite common, either 3 on point or paired off. Conquest is actually pretty dynamic with splits, and how you play conquest optimally will change with what balance patch is current.

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@"Chaith.8256" said:There's usually not an incentive to have 5 players working as a team, but there's always a big benefit to having 4 players working together as a team. Just because you can't 5-man a point doesn't mean it's all up to individual players.. you made a huge leap there. "Currently GW2 does not have a gamemode that rewards proper teamplay and team momentum", uh no. Have a person on a side-node role and teamfight to your heart's content if that's what floats your boat.

You can also choose to play on 3 points which is quite common, either 3 on point or paired off. Conquest is actually pretty dynamic with splits, and how you play conquest optimally will change with what balance patch is current.

Conquest is very complex and dynamic. And that's the problem. Because we have solo-q with random teams, a small player base, and little to no comms. Add elite professions usually designed around flavor / pve and a team of devs that most probably aren't all that great at Conquest PvP... and you have a recipe for disaster.

I mean... in WoW's random battlegrounds when did you ever hear people talking about "meta" BS. Conquest should be 5-man teams only and should offer the best rewards. Solo-q/unranked SHOULD HAVE been a bunch of different maps and game modes that is more about variety and fun and letting people play all sorts of builds with their friends.

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@Zietlogik.6208 said:What would you add or subtract to make it more interesting?

competitive should be 3v3, because it's easier to achieve in terms of group.Ofc we will need new maps, but this will definitely bring more players into real competitive gameplay ( if we have 100 5v5 premades, with a 3v3 we could reach 1000, simply because you won't need 4 more team mates, but just 2 ).

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@"Zietlogik.6208" said:Conquest is currently 5 players occasionally in the same place, but usually are in separate areas of the map being proficient at a specific role. Currently GW2 does not have a gamemode that rewards proper teamplay and team momentum, it relies on individuals to increase the likelihood of success in a team environment.

If the 1 person who is pushing far fails, or the 1 to hold home cannot, it does not change the dynamic of the team, it simply means 1 person goes to replace them in order to meet the "standing in circles" quota to gain points while someone respawns.

There is no incentive or benefit to having 5 players working together as a team, in fact it is discouraged, it rewards 1 person being good in 1 place, 1 person being good in another place, and a few other people moving around to fill in those 2 gaps as required, there is not much in terms of momentum, there is no real gain or loss other than map control, no push or pull, the gamemode will always feel stagnant and neutral at its core due to the only goal being "tick points to 500"

This is not black and white though, there is not much leniency between team cohesion in its objectives, there is only so much a team can cushion 1 person not pulling their weight due to the clock always being against you (points tick). People always use Mobas as an example, so my example would be 1 lane losing in a Moba, but still performing their role adequately in the team fight phase (tank, etc), since the overall gamemode objective is not about being proficient in a solo setting (aside from split pushing), it narrows into a team focused gamemode at its core.

Legacy of the Foefire is the closest thing we have to this. If the middle conquest node was the only node active, but gave no points, and the side nodes simply provided boons/buffs (similar to Forest) and capturing the middle node opened the gate to the enemy base, this would turn the gamemode into a more Team Deathmatch oriented mode with an emphasis of teamwork to kill the enemy lord, which would be the new objective in winning the match.

If one team gains mid control and starts to gain momentum and push into the enemy base, this would either prompt a full team fight to regain momentum, or the use of a "split pusher" to neutralize the mid cap to close the gate preventing respawns from entering or possibly splitting the enemy team on their push.

Whereas the side points could, over time, change or become stronger to aid in a team building the momentum to make the next push, or be taken to slow the enemy teams gain to even out the match and create counter push scenarios.

I am sure there are flaws, and potential exploits with something not fully fleshed out, but with the help of the community we could help create something that could be an interesting alternative to the current sPvP staple mode.

What would you add or subtract to make it more interesting?

I kinda feel that you are talking ONLY ABOUT RANKED...and sorry try to tell teams regularly fighting in monthly at's there is no ,, gamemode that rewards proper teamplay and team momentum".

Try to watch any monthly at video from perspectives of players or try yourself to make team with ts/discord, practice and try to win some at's...you will discover different game.

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The mode works well, the issue is what's everyone talking about : it doesn't require much effort to win with scourges and firebrands in solo queue between 800-1600, while it takes a lot of skill and rotations to beat it with a crap setup, and this sums probably 2/3 of my games last season.

There are a lot of strategies involved when mirror matchs or " slow damage " matchs ( i.e 2 druids guard thief rev) and these matchs are really fun and tactical. But others are too quick, and it usually takes 1 mistake to get rolled.

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Yes, this is mainly directed at the split between your regular PvP games, and full communication games. It would be the same in GW1 GvG or HoH, you can enter sure, but you will not compete at any level near a team with full communications, the modes were designed for them.

But currently, there is no real reason other than ATs to be on comms with your team, the games just don't matter, we need a mode that is more fun to play, pull people in, and then try to reach their competitive side and they will try their hand at conquest, and no, Stronghold does not help this at all.

This mode would be the equivalent of Random Arenas / Team Arenas / ByoB days in GW1 compared to Conquest being the equivalent of GvG or HoH in terms of communication and entry level.

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Just emulate Team Fortress 2's 5-CP game mode. It provides:

  • A multi-round system with full resets between round wins/losses which allow teams to rethink approaches to opponent strategies
  • A guaranteed, full-team mid-fight scenario at the start each round
  • Time and a means to defend one's final point should a mid-fight go poorly
  • Map designs which favor mid-fight winners (cap times decrease and respawn areas move forward as one team pushes toward another team's last point) but which don't automatically start an easy-mode snowball effect in the direction of a losing team (losing teams can still prepare defenses and run flanks from their last)
  • Map designs and round-reset system allows for matches to swing back and forth

Conquest (especially within GW2) is a joke. I mean, even looking back on GW1, Alliance Battles (the system from which GW2 conquest is mostly derived) was never, ever considered high-tier PvP. Moreover, at least GW1 AB had a lot more going on for it: varied terrain with party speed boosts, 7 capture objectives, capture times which sped up if you stacked players onto a cap node, and more to do than just point babysitting (the map was big enough, with enough players and vulnerable objectives that intercepting fights broke out everywhere). GW2 conquest has no flow to it; it's just blood in a cadaver. While a lot of it is due to the combat mechanics of GW2, once the hard-counters meme all over the mid fight and one team loses, the game mode structure of GW2 conquest brings absolutely no dynamic to combat beyond "hold 2" or "2v1 with me at [node]." GW2 conquest just lazes around and let's the bad habits of anet's designers walk all over it.

If you want to may be fix conquest itself, maybe try:

  • Removing the hard gimmicks from the maps and simply putting in extra cap nodes
  • Lowering all win condition scores from 500 to 250 (then make all AT matches a best of 3)

The former would instantly provide infinitely more flow to any match by giving players more objectives to consistently play. The latter would cull snowball suffering (since it's already been repeatedly tested how the first team to reach 250 in GW2 conquest has about a >78% of winning). Going to only 250 would maybe increase in-match engagement, potentially increase player turnover rates from match to match, and also just boost rewards due to shorter matches.

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