Let's introduce Weapon Modification: the Engineer weaponswap

[Warlyx.6732]

boosting or changing weapon its an amazing idea , tech exist to improve weapons too

[Obtena.7952]

@Warlyx.6732 said:boosting or changing weapon its an amazing idea , tech exist to improve weapons too

I'm not saying it won't be amazing ... I'm saying it's not inline with the core concept of the class. If Anet wanted the class concept to include weapon swapping, they would have put it in. I can see weapon 'transforms' being a espec, but not something that is more fundamental.

[Atmaweapon.7345]

You're going to have to define Engineer's core concept, as well as Engi's problems, better. Engineer was sold to me as "All of these instant swap kits make up for lack of weapon swap", "Utility skills give you your profession mechanic", and "Mid-range fighter" but in practice, the most effective kits are rather one-dimensional (all the explosives kits) and throttle build diversity, while Mid-range never really existed. It's been this way for years and I think it's time to expand on it.

Weapon mod was just an idea I came up with that satisfied (to me) Engineer's original promise of versatility through kits while keeping the overall output similar. I see being stuck with 1 weapon as a balancing act with kits that just never panned out well. Again, I point to how Scrapper Hammer started out completely overloaded and Photon Forge acts as a weapon swap/kit because they had to make up for how limited Engineer is with one weapon. Please explain how being limited to one weapon is an compelling part of the Engineer.

[Obtena.7952]

If the kits are not effective, the answer isn't weapon swaps or transforms . Do you think Anet's plan for such an idea would be to make them so effective you could avoid kits, considering that not having weapon swaps and access to kits are intended as the part of the original core engi concept in the first place? Think about that. It's not hard to see the answer to that is no ... I will remind you that Anet reworked phantasms on Mesmers only 2 months ago BECAUSE they undermined the class concept. Now you are asking for a change that would exactly allow that to happen on core Engi ... not a chance in hell. Anet providing people with strong elements to avoid a feature of the class doesn't make sense and we have evidence that already shows they won't do it, regardless of how underwhelming the element feels to people. That's where elite specs come in, and that's what elite specs are for.

You aren't really looking at the class in it's entirety. Regarding the engi as a class with only one weapon is a self-serving argument; the reality is that Engi has one weapon and up to 5 kits you can equip to get many different kinds of skills. THAT'S the concept. If that's not compelling to you, you simply aren't playing the right class. There is no argument for completely re thinking an aspect of the class because it doesn't feel compelling to a subgroup of players.

You're idea is suitable for an elite spec; I would embrace it as such.

[Warlyx.6732]

engineer resume : "u can be a broken swiss army knive wooohoo "

the concept is being able to equip tons of kits (From med , to granades , ect ) that sounds like cool until u play it.

u guys can talk about Anet plans , or what Anet was thinking when core engineer was created , things have changed a LOT , and there have been tons of improvements and QOL changes for the classes , but i still feel like eng is missing something...dunno if weaponswap or WeaponEnhancement will fix it (but looking at how holosmith plays , adding new and powerfull skills to use ) it only made sense.

still Eng needs some love. Scrapper included because it could have been an amazing elite spec , but ugh isnt as fun as reaper , dragonhunter , tempest ...on par with herald maybe. but at least heralds have some support and kinda fun gameplay with consuming aura boons for skills. Gyro system sucks and still buggy to this day.

[coglin.1496]

@"Warlyx.6732" said:engineer resume : "u can be a broken swiss army knive wooohoo "

the concept is being able to equip tons of kits (From med , to granades , ect ) that sounds like cool until u play it.

u guys can talk about Anet plans , or what Anet was thinking when core engineer was created , things have changed a LOT , and there have been tons of improvements and QOL changes for the classes , but i still feel like eng is missing something...dunno if weaponswap or WeaponEnhancement will fix it (but looking at how holosmith plays , adding new and powerfull skills to use ) it only made sense.

still Eng needs some love. Scrapper included because it could have been an amazing elite spec , but ugh isnt as fun as reaper , dragonhunter , tempest ...on par with herald maybe. but at least heralds have some support and kinda fun gameplay with consuming aura boons for skills. Gyro system sucks and still buggy to this day.

Yeah, but what are your very specific issues and complaint, and how do you propose to solve them? General, unspecific complaining addresses no issues and offers no solution.

[Obtena.7952]

@"Warlyx.6732" said:engineer resume : "u can be a broken swiss army knive wooohoo "

the concept is being able to equip tons of kits (From med , to granades , ect ) that sounds like cool until u play it.

u guys can talk about Anet plans , or what Anet was thinking when core engineer was created , things have changed a LOT , and there have been tons of improvements and QOL changes for the classes , but i still feel like eng is missing something...dunno if weaponswap or WeaponEnhancement will fix it (but looking at how holosmith plays , adding new and powerfull skills to use ) it only made sense.

still Eng needs some love. Scrapper included because it could have been an amazing elite spec , but ugh isnt as fun as reaper , dragonhunter , tempest ...on par with herald maybe. but at least heralds have some support and kinda fun gameplay with consuming aura boons for skills. Gyro system sucks and still buggy to this day.

Actually, things haven't changed so much they need to rethink core class skills. In fact, if anything, Anet works hard to preserve the core concepts of the classes ... again, refer to Mesmer phantasm rework as a more recent example of that. Appealing to 'lots of things have changed' is a reason to look at additional especs ... which is Anet's method to deal with the 'lots of things have changed' stuff you are talking about.

Again, we can sit around and talk about how awesome weapon swaps/transforms would be, You can think of LOTS of things that are great ideas, but don't pretend that they fix any of the current issues Engi's have.

[Forestnator.6298]

Better fix broken existing things instead of adding new mechanics.

[Atmaweapon.7345]

The shatter rework was made because the original intended playstyle for Mesmer was deciding when you needed to shatter to produce an instant effect vs. letting Phantasms do their thing for long term effects. Because there was literally no way to beat out letting phantasms doing their own thing in terms of dps, the original design fell flat so they went in the complete opposite direction and decided to just encourage Shatter spamming. Turrets were also sold as an integral part of Engineer's zone control and that fell flat on its face with its spiritual successor in the Scourge coming with all the same problems that they essentially gutted turrets for.

Also you need to specify what's currently broken about Engineer. I feel like the weapons themselves are broken because they were pretty much designed for PvP scenarios and want to rectify that first because they affect every single Engineer build. Weapon mod preserves most of the PvP applications of certain weapons while giving them "PvE" modes that don't do things like knock you back or inflict confusion. When the weapons themselves are fixed, we can then move on to the kits themselves and ask "What does this bring besides a better auto attack?" and work from there. I really don't expect having a decent auto on Rifle or Pistol would keep the maximized dps builds from swapping to Fragmentation grenades every 6 seconds, but how is not requiring kits for decent filler attacks a bad thing that takes away from the Engineer experience?

[Obtena.7952]

@Atmaweapon.7345 said:The shatter rework was made because the original intended playstyle for Mesmer was deciding when you needed to shatter to produce an instant effect vs. letting Phantasms do their thing for long term effects. Because there was literally no way to beat out letting phantasms doing their own thing in terms of dps, the original design fell flat so they went in the complete opposite direction and decided to just encourage Shatter spamming.

Exactly ... and you're proposing the same thing by allowing a weapon swap ... because you want to give yourself 'no way to beat out letting kits do their thing'.

Anet isn't going to implement an idea on profession that provides a scenario ... when in the past, they nerf that idea on a different profession because of that same scenario.

If kits are underwhelming, the solution isn't weapon swaps. You say the end result that you are pigeonholed into 1 weapon that you need to supplement with kits ... um, yes ... YES!!! and that's the intended end result!!!! It's part of the INTENDED concept of the class !!!

[Atmaweapon.7345]

There's a pretty big difference between literally doing nothing but auto-attacking after phantasms come out and choosing to use a different utility in place of a kit. I don't find anything wrong with kits outside of the Explosive kits being rather one-dimensional, it's just that I don't find that having to swap to a kit before pressing 1 over and over again to be particularly engaging or important to profession identity. The only "broken" thing about kits is that they've been powercreeped out of existence.

Also, the way I structured weapon mod suggestions was to increase build diversity, including kits. For example, as a Rifle Engi, you absolutely need Bomb and Grenade kit because Rifle autos are garbage. With weapon mod, maybe you go short range mode + Grenades and longrange mode + Bombs since the cast time penalty on weapon mod lowers your dps too much or maybe you just double down on range/melee with the other weapon mode as a fallback. Maybe you cover your flamethrower kit with Debilitating condition pistol or Pistol can actually do damage instead of having to juggle 3 kits to avoid the dreaded auto-attack. I want kits to complement the weapon and playstyle, not compensate for the weapon.

You also have to boil down what a Kit is. It's essentially a weaponswap with no cooldown and less powerful abilities than a proper weapon. All kits are in fact, optional, whereas a Mesmer will always have Shatters sitting on their profession mechanic bar. If the entire design is for Engineers to be useless without kits, then they should have made kits the profession mechanic, but they aren't. Instead Engineers can opt into and out of kits as they very well please which is good because what would be the point of any other utility skill?

Finally, no other profession in the game has their elite specs running away from their so-called "core concept." Why is it OK for Engineer Elites to introduce things to actively reduce their reliance on kits while other elites either play with their core concept or complement them? Adding an weapon swap to a new elite outright basically admits the design failure of kits as a core concept.

[Obtena.7952]

Sure there is a big difference, BUT ... it's still the same logic. You're asking for a feature to allow you to ignore how the class was intended to work ... JUST like how mesmers camped phantasms was not the intention of how that class worked either. That will never be a reasonable proposal. I can see it being relevant for an espec, because especs change the flavour of the class, which weapon 'transforms/swaps' would do.

[Nero.7369]

Interesting concept, I like it :) wouldnt expect it to be baseline, even if I would hope so... but maybe as an elite spec

Currently inplay Holo with sword/shield and without kits, the only real damage output comes from homoform there... More offensive possibilities on weapon sets would be cool :+1:

I would be already happy with some improvements on existing weapons, kit and specially buffs on some toolbelt skills. Just check out skills like flamethrower 5... Aoe blind on 40sec CD :angry:

[Leoburn.6427]

@JETWING.2759 said:

@EdwinLi.1284 said:

@JETWING.2759 said:Just give better ranged damage potential with kits, including photonforge.

You make it sound like Engineer are only smart enough to make Kits useful

I'd think kit swap (no cooldown) is better than weapon swap (10s cooldown).Think that the Scrapper will need wait 10s to get access to his hammer again, and when something get close, he will need swap to some kit until the weapon swap get ready.May be that they not even consider big changes like purposed by op.

The problem with Kits is that both Elite Specs make reduced-to-no use of them at all:-Kits get 0 heat bonus (like every non-sword weapon for as far as I can tell no reason what-so-ever) and you lose the Elite Toolbelt for Photon Forge, making them less-than-ideal for the Holosmith.-Around 70% of the Scrapper's survivability comes from Gyros, as well as a lot of utility. Sure you can then take ranged weapons and kits instead to deal with the squishiness, but then why are you a Scrapper?And with both of these comes the additional issue that all Engineers are balanced around Kits being a weapon swap, so not taking Kits locks you to a single weapon; this locks any Hammer or Sword user not using Kits into being constitutively melee, and any base Engineer (like a Turret/Elixir build) into pure ranged.... it's just bad mechanics.And anyone wanting to say 'oh, but Elementalists..' there is NOTHING in their kit that makes them choose between their core mechanic and build diversity.Engineer is in a terrible place, and ANet really need to look at it, fast. (I don't care if they take a while to do something, code is code, but they need to say something, lay out a plan)

[Leoburn.6427]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Atmaweapon.7345 said:The shatter rework was made because the original intended playstyle for Mesmer was deciding when you needed to shatter to produce an instant effect vs. letting Phantasms do their thing for long term effects. Because there was literally no way to beat out letting phantasms doing their own thing in terms of dps, the original design fell flat so they went in the complete opposite direction and decided to just encourage Shatter spamming.

Exactly ... and you're proposing the same thing by allowing a weapon swap ... because you want to give yourself 'no way to beat out letting kits do their thing'.

Anet isn't going to implement an idea on profession that provides a scenario ... when in the past, they nerf that idea on a different profession because of that same scenario.

If kits are underwhelming, the solution isn't weapon swaps. You say the end result that you are pigeonholed into 1 weapon that you need to supplement with kits ... um, yes ... YES!!! and that's the intended end result!!!! It's part of the INTENDED concept of the class !!!

If ANet wanted Kits to be absolutely core to any useful build, they should have given them instead of weapons; as it currently stands it's like Elementalists needing to choose between certain Utility Skills or their Attunement mechanic....

[Chaith.8256]

Yes, it's easy to point out that Engineer is not on even footing in base design because they have less utility slots in order to have two weapons, but this isn't definitive proof that Engineer needs a rebuild or is fundamentally broken. It just needs a balance update.

With strong enough toolbelt skills, Engineer/Scrapper makes up for that one mandatory kit. With strong enough anything- you can easily compensate for a Utility Slot's value. Don't get so hung up on the Engineer's lack of base weapon swap, it's ok to be different.The low performance fix could be anything

[Ardid.7203]

Ultra low cost rebuild: unlink toolbelt skills from their base skills. Let us decide what goes into the toolbelt.

[Atmaweapon.7345]

Performance is one part, but Engineer is decent enough with Holosmith. It's the fun fantasy I'm looking for. When I started at launch, I genuinely had fun just spamming Grenades and stuff, but it always irked me that Rifle and Pistol felt like shackles. It's like the current problem with limited Revenant utilities, except in reverse since Core Engi only has two weapons.

Engineer doesn't have the fantasy of a Shotgun or even a proper Rifle, instead getting a mix of abilities meant almost entirely for the early design of mid-range PvP combat, something that pretty much dominates Engineer traitline efficacy too. To me, it feels like the "Scrapper" theme is redundant because jury-rigging a mess of functions that works alright just seems to be the theme of Engineer in general due to how awkward it feels to play. Fantasy is important.

Weapon mod is just my idea to bring high-tech structure and realize ideas that simply cannot exist on Engineer or even exist in the game at all due to the niche that Engineer is supposed to be taking up. What other profession can utilize shotguns when Engineer has Shotgun-lite? Why does the steampunk techie class not have any idea at all on how to use a Rifle properly? Despite the variety of ammo, why are all Pistol attacks boring to use? I want to open up the design space for effective weapons, not undertuned scraps that are left this way on purpose since the designers want everyone to utilize weapon swaps.

[Julius Seizure.4985]

There are only two classes that can receive this level of revamp and this amount of new skills and animations. I think it is a great idea, but Engineer is not Mesmer or Elementalist...

(Sorry, just a little salty about the way the developers have allocated resources to classes over the years.)