5 months since ANet said they would like to buff Scourge shades ...

[Agrippa.1693]

It's been more than 5 months now that a Dev has promised us Necros (/Scourges) on these forums that it's their intention to improve the Scourges shades:

@"Karl McLain.5604" said:Now that the stacking bug has been fixed, we've got potential to bring the single-shade interaction to a more respectable level. Keep in mind that the specialization probably won't hit previous DPS potential (as it has heavy support built in), but we do intend for it to go up from where it's currently at.Since then we've pretty much only received the exact opposite of what we've been promised!My question, while we're getting more and more worthless (mainly) in endgame PvE (save for that one niche), is when this intention is actually going to be followed up upon? I think we deserve it!

[Justine.6351]

Why do you deserve it?

[Agrippa.1693]

Because I'm awesome!(a little bit more context would be nice :) )

[Dadnir.5038]

Due to how shades work, it will always be problematic in PvP/WvW and PvE damage are not something that anet really bother about, which mean that as long as shades will make other profession's player cry about how op it is, there will be no end to the "nerfs" and that on the best cases, these nerfs will not affect PvE more than it already do.

The issue lie in the shades mechanism. If manifest sand shades didn't proc from every F skill, creating huge condi bombs whenever a shade skill is used, there wouldn't have been that much complain from the beginning. Sure players would have complained about the coverage, but the spec is designed to cover large areas, it's a fundamental of the thematic of this spec. The real issue is the overlapping effects granted by the core traits that weren't designed to support such mechanism.

And what's sad is that if they ever fix this point, the dps of the spec will undoubtely go down. It's what happen when one try to balance a design issue by tweeking numbers.

To answer your concern, anet would very well add an extra torment stack per hit on desert shroud in PvE only and then forget about the matter to focus on PvP, trying to fix things clumsily without ever achieving a satisfactory result.

[Anchoku.8142]

Shades and barriers were introduced to create one more reason to delete Necro. Barriers work outside of normal boon mechanics and so lack their controls.

[ZDragon.3046]

Because anet fails to realize that by nerfing scourge shades it just means bring more scourges next time. And so the problem continues if not gets worse. If a team only needed 5 scourges to perform well in a small group in wvw or per say 1 in pvp and it gets nerfed the quickest way to attempt to make up for it is to simple double your efforts in other words bring 10 scourges wvw or 2 in pvp.

They quickly stopped that with mesmers along time ago with alacrity. In stead of making it so people simply didnt bring more mesmers they nerfed it in a way where simply adding more wouldnt undo the point behind the nerf. Unfortunately it was a problem to solve for pve balance not pvp balance. Scourge is a case of pvp balance issues which is harder to fix because you cant just cut the skills so harshly.

IF they did scourge would become all but pointless and they know thats a big no no at the moment.

[Obtena.7952]

So you confused 'potential to do something" with 'promised' .. that's interesting.

[Amerikajinn.4635]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:It's been more than 5 months now that a Dev has promised us Necros (/Scourges) on these forums that it's their intention to improve the Scourges shades:

@"Karl McLain.5604" said:Now that the stacking bug has been fixed, we've got potential to bring the single-shade interaction to a more respectable level. Keep in mind that the specialization probably won't hit previous DPS potential (as it has heavy support built in), but we do intend for it to go

up

from where it's currently at.Since then we've pretty much only

received

the

exact

opposite

of what we've been

promised

!My question, while we're getting

more

and

more

worthless

(mainly) in endgame PvE (save for that

one

niche

), is when this intention is

actually

going to be followed up upon? I think we

deserve

it

!

The problem with you linking the Discretize builds as a way to show that Scourge doesn't get what it deserves is a little multi-faceted here:

1. Discretize are as a whole dedicated to highly optimizing fractals. This generally means that the kinds of builds you'd be focusing on for this endeavor would be bursty power builds
2. As for builds on their site in general, it comes down to whether someone wants to take the time to write it up. The reason that Condi Reaper is there is because I wrote it, and also because Condi Reaper has a higher burst potential than Condi Scourge does. Regardless, if you wanted a Condi Scourge build on there you can take the initative and write one.
3. You linked benchmarks from Discretize and Snow Crows as some kind of slight against Scourge. Not only does a single target golem not take into account Necromancer's "Niche" as you call it (ie Epidemic), if you were to take a look at GW2Raidar's average performance for bosses like Deimos, Gorseval, Matthias or Samarog (all bosses where Epidemic bouncing is not at its strongest) and you'd see the gap in performance is fairly minimal in terms of single target damage.

Yes, there is potential for Scourge to be better as per the dev quote, but you're also being a bit on the melodramatic side in terms of how "worthless" Necromancer is. Anyone that actually thinks Scourge (or Reaper for that matter) is worthless does not know how to play the profession to an effective standard.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@ZDragon.3046 said:Because anet fails to realize that by nerfing scourge shades it just means bring more scourges next time. And so the problem continues if not gets worse. If a team only needed 5 scourges to perform well in a small group in wvw or per say 1 in pvp and it gets nerfed the quickest way to attempt to make up for it is to simple double your efforts in other words bring 10 scourges wvw or 2 in pvp.

They quickly stopped that with mesmers along time ago with alacrity. In stead of making it so people simply didnt bring more mesmers they nerfed it in a way where simply adding more wouldnt undo the point behind the nerf. Unfortunately it was a problem to solve for pve balance not pvp balance. Scourge is a case of pvp balance issues which is harder to fix because you cant just cut the skills so harshly.

IF they did scourge would become all but pointless and they know thats a big no no at the moment.

This is just blatantly false.

In the PvP formats, you stack as many of the OP classes as you can. So long as scourge is even remotely functional it will be stacked harder and harder in its current design because the design itself is absolutely busted in PvP/WvW.

The changes to alacrity made double-chrono go from optimal to a damage loss, so people actively went against it. Unless they actively punish stacking scourges or simply weaken what they do, nothing will change their presence and dominance in PvP/WvW.

[ZDragon.3046]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:Because anet fails to realize that by nerfing scourge shades it just means bring more scourges next time. And so the problem continues if not gets worse. If a team only needed 5 scourges to perform well in a small group in wvw or per say 1 in pvp and it gets nerfed the quickest way to attempt to make up for it is to simple double your efforts in other words bring 10 scourges wvw or 2 in pvp.

They quickly stopped that with mesmers along time ago with alacrity. In stead of making it so people simply didnt bring more mesmers they nerfed it in a way where simply adding more wouldnt undo the point behind the nerf. Unfortunately it was a problem to solve for pve balance not pvp balance. Scourge is a case of pvp balance issues which is harder to fix because you cant just cut the skills so harshly.

IF they did scourge would become all but pointless and they know thats a big no no at the moment.

This is just blatantly false.

its not false even though you agree with me in your next statement lol.

In the PvP formats, you stack as many of the OP classes as you can. So long as scourge is even remotely functional it will be stacked harder and harder in its current design because the design itself is absolutely busted in PvP/WvW.

Thats pretty much what i said you know that right. Minus the OP part.Scourge should have never been op to start with but leaving it busted for 3 weeks doing 2x-3x more dps than it should have been doing was kind of an issue.Anet will have to settle for having scourge deal stupid amounts of damage in groups while having high cds or drop the cds and lower their damage. Its just a matter of time before they have to pick one or the other because nerfing it to the point where its not usable/functional is not a real option for their 2nd xpac espec right now. Maybe when we get to the 3rd xpac they can get away with that but right now they cant. And if what you say is true why dont we see zergs of mirages (dont even dare say cause mirage is not broken).

[Agrippa.1693]

@"Amerikajinn.4635" said:Yes, there is potential for Scourge to be better as per the dev quote, but you're also being a bit on the melodramatic side in terms of how "worthless" Necromancer is. Anyone that actually thinks Scourge (or Reaper for that matter) is worthless does not know how to play the profession to an effective standard.True, I am a "bit on the melodramatic side" there: guilty! Maybe jumping to conclusions about people not knowing how to play the profession to an "effective standard" is also a "bit on the melodramatic side", don't you think?. To take it personally (which, I shouldn't, but, for argument sake): I know very well how to play the Necro/Scourge or Reaper for that matter! I just find (by practise) ... well, pretty much every other profession doing a better job in almost every PvE endgame situation, again save for those niche examples. ... And btw, the links you showed only painfully proves that in all these cases there are at least several, but mostly many other professions doing (a lot) better in DPS alone (definitely Boss DPS) (obviously you have to look at the 99th percentile to get the players that reaches that "effective standard" you so eloquently put). Take your Samarog example for instance: Cleave DPS is (only) at a 4th place for the Necro (Scourge) and on the far more important Boss DPS ranking list we're as good as number 8 out of all the 9 professions, with only the Ranger (Soulbeast (with its Stance Share)) putting out less Boss DPS than the Necro (Scourge). Also, ignoring some of the professions bringing multiple specializations to the table outperforming the Scourge (setting the Scourge effectively back to the 16th place), cause the (power) Reaper is as we all know (and as you can see in the example)much worse than the condi Scourge (in the DPS area).And let's just not start about support or real 'worth' towards the team! Hence, my overreacting about the "worthless" state we're in.

@"Obtena.7952" said:So you confused 'potential to do something" with 'promised' .. that's interesting.I was actually referring to the: "intend for it to go up from where it's currently at"And yea, an intention is hardly worth anything, I agree. But still, you can't deny that since then the Devs have done the exact opposite! So, I was wondering if we could still call them in on that promised (read: written) intention.

[Obtena.7952]

I've yet to see many times where the nerf doesn't come before the buff ... so I'm not surprised of how this has gone down. 5 months ... that's actually not a very long time for changes to be made.

[Aark.6359]

And within those 5 months a mesmer rework came up. A class that was desired in endgame content. So much that if you ever joined a group using a non-meta build you wouldn't get kicked instantly before you could speak up. It is so depressing. I'd like to know what basis Anet uses to decide what classes gets a rework and what doesn't.

Also, since scourge was suppose to be a heavy support spec and not a dps spec, devs could make it so that the traits work differently when the scourge trait line is equipped. Like what they disgustingly did with the Path of Corruption trait. In which I wish they revert but given Anet's history, they won't.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:Because anet fails to realize that by nerfing scourge shades it just means bring more scourges next time. And so the problem continues if not gets worse. If a team only needed 5 scourges to perform well in a small group in wvw or per say 1 in pvp and it gets nerfed the quickest way to attempt to make up for it is to simple double your efforts in other words bring 10 scourges wvw or 2 in pvp.

They quickly stopped that with mesmers along time ago with alacrity. In stead of making it so people simply didnt bring more mesmers they nerfed it in a way where simply adding more wouldnt undo the point behind the nerf. Unfortunately it was a problem to solve for pve balance not pvp balance. Scourge is a case of pvp balance issues which is harder to fix because you cant just cut the skills so harshly.

IF they did scourge would become all but pointless and they know thats a big no no at the moment.

This is just blatantly false.

its not false even though you agree with me in your next statement lol.

In the PvP formats, you stack as many of the OP classes as you can. So long as scourge is even remotely functional it will be stacked harder and harder in its current design because the design itself is absolutely busted in PvP/WvW.

Thats pretty much what i said you know that right. Minus the OP part.Scourge should have never been op to start with but leaving it busted for 3 weeks doing 2x-3x more dps than it should have been doing was kind of an issue.Anet will have to settle for having scourge deal stupid amounts of damage in groups while having high cds or drop the cds and lower their damage. Its just a matter of time before they have to pick one or the other because nerfing it to the point where its not usable/functional is not a real option for their 2nd xpac espec right now. Maybe when we get to the 3rd xpac they can get away with that but right now they cant. And if what you say is true why dont we see zergs of mirages (dont even dare say cause mirage is not broken).

I completely misread your initial post, somehow thinking you were stating that the issue would be resolved by running fewer scourges akin to the Chrono issue. My apologies.