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[Feedback][Discussion] 03/27/18 Patch


Acandis.3250

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I'll get us started with my comments on Scourge, as it is what I currently play the most.


Let me preface by saying that even before today, I did not think the patch would hurt Scourge much at all. I believed it would be nerfed a bit, but so would every other class, so it would still be a strong meta class.

That being said, as a current Necro main, here are my initial thoughts after playing a few games today.

  • _Increasing Desert Shroud kills build diversity, instead of promoting it._ Where I could previously look to play Spectral Mastery or Fear of Death, I am now almost always pigeonholed into taking Vital Persistence.
  • Bug-fixing obstructed shade abilities is a huge buff. I can now look to LoS enemies while still aggressing on them from safety. Before today, avoiding Scourge damage was simple: stay away or LoS; the latter is no longer a guaranteed solution.
  • The nerfs to other classes were much harsher than Scourge nerfs. In a way, this is an indirect relative buff to Scourge.

Overall, I think today's patch actually makes Scourge's current meta build stronger than it was yesterday. I'd like to re-iterate what I've said in other threads: the only viable way to properly nerf Scourge is to re-work Sand Savant. If you're interested in a more in-depth review look here.

I repeat: as a Necro main, I think Sand Savant needs to go. It is not a skillful trait.


I am not too familiar with other classes, so I invite others share their input here.

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I kind of see what you're saying and agree, but since I won't be able to play to see for myself how it actually turns out then I'm just speculating here.

Still, since mesmers and scourges needed nerfed relatively moreso than other professions but ended up being nerfed less than everything else, it ended up being a buff for both of them.

Since I've mostly just been playing fresh air ele, I'll just reference my reaction to the Nerf to my main. It was butchered to the point where bringing it into PvP could be detrimental to the team, so I probably won't be able to play my main this season. Meanwhile, almost nothing was done about the things that were actually a problem.

I am disappointed, but at least the function gyro was supposedly fixed, so I might just switch to scrapper to PvP since that's my second most favorite profession. :P

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We'll see in a few days but I'm certain SD meta thief at least was nerfed too hard to remain a top build for next season (or at least in its current form), I'm expecting thieves to change to condi builds or just be out of meta completely. I don't have faith in the parties involved to allow rifle to be meta even though it's not as bad as people think.

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I do agree that shades SHOULD be LOS dependant. That actually made for more skillful play and allowed people to actually have a chance against the class from range. AS for Sand Savant, I just faceroll the class to win, so I'm not as experienced with that, but I can say that they were pretty strong before, and the LOS "fix" alone is a hell of a buff.

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@"thatdarnkatz.7168" said:I do agree that shades SHOULD be LOS dependant. That actually made for more skillful play and allowed people to actually have a chance against the class from range. AS for Sand Savant, I just faceroll the class to win, so I'm not as experienced with that, but I can say that they were pretty strong before, and the LOS "fix" alone is a hell of a buff.

It's a buff, sure, but I think people are overreacting as to how much of one it was. Before it got fixed (and there was a specific patch it was broken in, so this is a legitimate bug fix), it was similar to dropping a lava font, running behind cover, and the lava font stopped dealing damage. This is clearly stupid and inconsistent behavior compared to every other AoE in the game.

You can still LoS a Scourge more than most other pulsing AoE's, since they do still have to maintain line of sight to the shade itself. They can't duck entirely behind a wall and still hit you. The main thing this did was let them put shades on top of walls in WvW and hit defenders.

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@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@"thatdarnkatz.7168" said:I do agree that shades SHOULD be LOS dependant. That actually made for more skillful play and allowed people to actually have a chance against the class from range. AS for Sand Savant, I just faceroll the class to win, so I'm not as experienced with that, but I can say that they were pretty strong before, and the LOS "fix" alone is a hell of a buff.

It's a buff, sure, but I think people are overreacting as to how much of one it was. Before it got fixed (and there was a specific patch it was broken in, so this is a legitimate bug fix), it was similar to dropping a lava font, running behind cover, and the lava font stopped dealing damage. This is clearly stupid and inconsistent behavior compared to every other AoE in the game.

You can still LoS a Scourge more than most other pulsing AoE's, since they do still have to maintain line of sight to the shade itself. They can't duck entirely behind a wall and still hit you. The main thing this did was let them put shades on top of walls in WvW and hit defenders.

Nope. This is a massive PvP buff. Anyone that plays scourge knows how huge it is being able to hit around your 300 shade radius(bigger than the average node) all the time as long as you have LoS to your shade. Prior to this change there were spots in every map and almost every node to LoS you, some better than others and this changes that. So no, this isn't just a minor wvw change.

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@NotoriousNaru.1705 said:

@"thatdarnkatz.7168" said:I do agree that shades SHOULD be LOS dependant. That actually made for more skillful play and allowed people to actually have a chance against the class from range. AS for Sand Savant, I just faceroll the class to win, so I'm not as experienced with that, but I can say that they were pretty strong before, and the LOS "fix" alone is a hell of a buff.

It's a buff, sure, but I think people are overreacting as to how much of one it was. Before it got fixed (and there was a specific patch it was broken in, so this is a legitimate bug fix), it was similar to dropping a lava font, running behind cover, and the lava font stopped dealing damage. This is clearly stupid and inconsistent behavior compared to every other AoE in the game.

You can still LoS a Scourge more than most other pulsing AoE's, since they do still have to maintain line of sight to the shade itself. They can't duck entirely behind a wall and still hit you. The main thing this did was let them put shades on top of walls in WvW and hit defenders.

Nope. This is a massive PvP buff. Anyone that plays scourge knows how huge it is being able to hit around your 300 shade radius(bigger than the average node) all the time as long as you have LoS to your shade. Prior to this change there were spots in every map and almost every node to LoS you, some better than others and this changes that. So no, this isn't just a minor wvw change.

I do play Scourge. I also know that said shade is usually placed on the center of the node. It's more difficult to LoS the Scourge now than it was before, but if they're hiding behind a pillar to avoid you, they probably can't hit you even after the change (because people do gravitate toward the center of the point if there's not a reason not to).

You can't place a shade to cover the point and then hide yourself behind a wall and have it do anything.

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@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@"thatdarnkatz.7168" said:I do agree that shades SHOULD be LOS dependant. That actually made for more skillful play and allowed people to actually have a chance against the class from range. AS for Sand Savant, I just faceroll the class to win, so I'm not as experienced with that, but I can say that they were pretty strong before, and the LOS "fix" alone is a hell of a buff.

It's a buff, sure, but I think people are overreacting as to how much of one it was. Before it got fixed (and there was a specific patch it was broken in, so this is a legitimate bug fix), it was similar to dropping a lava font, running behind cover, and the lava font stopped dealing damage. This is clearly stupid and inconsistent behavior compared to every other AoE in the game.

You can still LoS a Scourge more than most other pulsing AoE's, since they do still have to maintain line of sight to the shade itself. They can't duck entirely behind a wall and still hit you. The main thing this did was let them put shades on top of walls in WvW and hit defenders.

Nope. This is a massive PvP buff. Anyone that plays scourge knows how huge it is being able to hit around your 300 shade radius(bigger than the average node) all the time as long as you have LoS to your shade. Prior to this change there were spots in every map and almost every node to LoS you, some better than others and this changes that. So no, this isn't just a minor wvw change.

I do play Scourge. I also know that said shade is usually placed on the center of the node. It's more difficult to LoS the Scourge now than it was before, but if they're hiding behind a pillar to avoid you, they probably can't hit you even after the change (because people do gravitate toward the center of the point if there's not a reason not to).

You can't place a shade to cover the point and then hide yourself behind a wall and have it do anything.

Wrong again, sorry. I really don't think you know how shades work let alone their relation to terrain prior to this change and now. Like I said, its a big buff in almost every node in every map.

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@NotoriousNaru.1705 said:

@"thatdarnkatz.7168" said:I do agree that shades SHOULD be LOS dependant. That actually made for more skillful play and allowed people to actually have a chance against the class from range. AS for Sand Savant, I just faceroll the class to win, so I'm not as experienced with that, but I can say that they were pretty strong before, and the LOS "fix" alone is a hell of a buff.

It's a buff, sure, but I think people are overreacting as to how much of one it was. Before it got fixed (and there was a specific patch it was broken in, so this is a legitimate bug fix), it was similar to dropping a lava font, running behind cover, and the lava font stopped dealing damage. This is clearly stupid and inconsistent behavior compared to every other AoE in the game.

You can still LoS a Scourge more than most other pulsing AoE's, since they do still have to maintain line of sight to the shade itself. They can't duck entirely behind a wall and still hit you. The main thing this did was let them put shades on top of walls in WvW and hit defenders.

Nope. This is a massive PvP buff. Anyone that plays scourge knows how huge it is being able to hit around your 300 shade radius(bigger than the average node) all the time as long as you have LoS to your shade. Prior to this change there were spots in every map and almost every node to LoS you, some better than others and this changes that. So no, this isn't just a minor wvw change.

I do play Scourge. I also know that said shade is usually placed on the center of the node. It's more difficult to LoS the Scourge now than it was before, but if they're hiding behind a pillar to avoid you, they probably can't hit you even after the change (because people do gravitate toward the center of the point if there's not a reason not to).

You can't place a shade to cover the point and then hide yourself behind a wall and have it do anything.

Wrong again, sorry. I really don't think you know how shades work let alone their relation to terrain prior to this change and now. Like I said, its a big buff in almost every node in every map.

You say "wrong again" but don't bother saying what part is wrong. I acknowledge that LoSing a Scourge is harder now, but it's far from impossible. If the Scourge is hiding from you, it's pretty unlikely that the shade will be able to hit you. If you are hiding from the Scourge, then yes, it's vastly more difficult.

I'm working off of hard limits of the ability on my statements. If the Scourge is hiding from you, he does NOT have LoS to his shade, and therefore can't hit anyone with it.

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Engineer main here:


  • The changes to holo increased its existing weakness to CC spam/ranged attacks, but otherwise did very little to remove holo from the meta. Since everybody's damage was lowered across the board, the damage nerfs to holo barely registered on my radar.
  • Scrapper got several gamebreaking bugs fixed finally, but it's still horrendous to play, especially because scourges continue to be quite strong and there are still many more bugs to fix. IMO the whole elite spec needs some serious redesign. It's badly outdated, super buggy, and riddled with bad design, and I don't think numbers changes are going to fix that.
  • The "buffs" to core engineer were laughably bad.
  • The passive reductions to engineer also barely registered. Auto-elixir S prior to this update was on a cooldown of 75 seconds already, so shifting it over to 90 seconds really isn't a major issue. The other traits are still bad by comparison.

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@"thatdarnkatz.7168" said:I do agree that shades SHOULD be LOS dependant. That actually made for more skillful play and allowed people to actually have a chance against the class from range. AS for Sand Savant, I just faceroll the class to win, so I'm not as experienced with that, but I can say that they were pretty strong before, and the LOS "fix" alone is a hell of a buff.

It's a buff, sure, but I think people are overreacting as to how much of one it was. Before it got fixed (and there was a specific patch it was broken in, so this is a legitimate bug fix), it was similar to dropping a lava font, running behind cover, and the lava font stopped dealing damage. This is clearly stupid and inconsistent behavior compared to every other AoE in the game.

This is actually a huge buff for scourges in PvP. It means they are able to seriously damage people from complete safety. For example, the middle of battle of khylo. Plop a shade down in the center of the point, and now you can hide behind a wall, away from the annoying likes of rangers, thieves, and potentially enginers who could range you before. An LOS "bugfix" such as this is like giving scourges temporary invulns (potentially very long duration too) that they can attack through.

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@"Vagrant.7206" said:

This is actually a huge buff for scourges in PvP. It means they are able to seriously damage people from complete safety. For example, the middle of battle of khylo. Plop a shade down in the center of the point, and now you can hide behind a wall, away from the annoying likes of rangers, thieves, and potentially enginers who could range you before. An LOS "bugfix" such as this is like giving scourges temporary invulns (potentially very long duration too) that they can attack through.

In the exact situation you described, the Scourge would hit nobody with his shade because he doesn't have line of sight to it.

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@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@"Vagrant.7206" said:

This is actually a huge buff for scourges in PvP. It means they are able to seriously damage people from complete safety. For example, the middle of battle of khylo. Plop a shade down in the center of the point, and now you can hide behind a wall, away from the annoying likes of rangers, thieves, and potentially enginers who could range you before. An LOS "bugfix" such as this is like giving scourges temporary invulns (potentially very long duration too) that they can attack through.

In the exact situation you described, the Scourge would hit nobody with his shade because he doesn't have line of sight to it.

He easily could have line of sight to it. Remember, Sand Savant's range is massive, so just peeking around a corner at his shade would be enough.

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I love this patch! Yeah sure it is not perfect (Anet know that themselves, duh) but we got one of the best things this patch! Communication! Come one guys! Yeah professions need work, they, most probably, always will need it! But Ben actually LISTED all of the changed and even made some changes BEFORE the patch actually went live! This alone is sooo satisfying! Remember the past? When "random" changes were made with 0 communication? Yeah, that was far worse than bad balance patches. And now we have it (well, at least this patch)! Don't know about you guys, but I actually have faith in the future of the game's PvP now! My 2 cents.

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

This is actually a huge buff for scourges in PvP. It means they are able to seriously damage people from complete safety. For example, the middle of battle of khylo. Plop a shade down in the center of the point, and now you can hide behind a wall, away from the annoying likes of rangers, thieves, and potentially enginers who could range you before. An LOS "bugfix" such as this is like giving scourges temporary invulns (potentially very long duration too) that they can attack through.

In the exact situation you described, the Scourge would hit nobody with his shade because he doesn't have line of sight to it.

He easily could have line of sight to it. Remember, Sand Savant's range is massive, so just peeking around a corner at his shade would be enough.

Then he's not hiding behind a wall. Remember: the shade is in the middle of the point. If he can see the shade, half the point sees him at minimum.

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