Core Mesmer is better at attacking while avoiding damage.

[Levetty.1279]

Traited signits grant invulnerability, remove a condition and don’t replace your auto attacks with weak ambush attacks.Blurred Frenzy hits like a truck in PvE, not too bad in PvP, and has evade built in.Still get your two normal dodges for when you want to move.

[Durzlla.6295]

Whelp, everything you stated isn't mutually exclusive to Mesmer, so your statement is incorrect.

[Levetty.1279]

@Durzlla.6295 said:Whelp, everything you stated isn't mutually exclusive to Mesmer, so your statement is incorrect.

You've had two times to read my thread before responding now and both times you decided not to, sad.

[Durzlla.6295]

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:Whelp, everything you stated isn't mutually exclusive to Mesmer, so your statement is incorrect.

You've had two times to read my thread before responding now and both times you decided not to, sad.

Oh I've read it twice now, and no matter what you say you'd still be wrong as long as mirage is capable of doing everything core Mesmer can for attacking and evading and gets ANY way else to attack and evade that Mesmer doesn't, you'd still be wrong.

You didnt state "core Mesmer is more mobile than Mirage" which it is, you said it's better at attacking and evading which is kust flat out wrong until Mesmer can dodge in addition to distortion during every skill activation you'll still be wrong.

[Levetty.1279]

@Durzlla.6295 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:Whelp, everything you stated isn't mutually exclusive to Mesmer, so your statement is incorrect.

You've had two times to read my thread before responding now and both times you decided not to, sad.

Oh I've read it twice now, and no matter what you say you'd still be wrong as long as mirage is capable of doing everything core Mesmer can for attacking and evading and gets ANY way else to attack and evade that Mesmer doesn't, you'd still be wrong.

You didnt state "core Mesmer is more mobile than Mirage" which it is, you said it's better at attacking and evading which is kust flat out wrong until Mesmer can dodge in addition to distortion during every skill activation you'll still be wrong.

Mirage takes away your dodges.The tools Core Mesmer has to attack while avoiding damage are better then the ones Mirage adds even before you consider how weak ambush attacks are.Even ignoring the fact that core Mesmer has better tools, Mirage adds no new ways to play.

TLDR Mirage adds no new ways to play Mesmer and Mesmer is better at the playstyle Mirage is designed around.

[Durzlla.6295]

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:Whelp, everything you stated isn't mutually exclusive to Mesmer, so your statement is incorrect.

You've had two times to read my thread before responding now and both times you decided not to, sad.

Oh I've read it twice now, and no matter what you say you'd still be wrong as long as mirage is capable of doing everything core Mesmer can for attacking and evading and gets ANY way else to attack and evade that Mesmer doesn't, you'd still be wrong.

You didnt state "core Mesmer is more mobile than Mirage" which it is, you said it's better at attacking and evading which is kust flat out wrong until Mesmer can dodge in addition to distortion during every skill activation you'll still be wrong.

Mirage takes away your dodges.The tools Core Mesmer has to attack while avoiding damage are better then the ones Mirage adds even before you consider how weak ambush attacks are.Even ignoring the fact that core Mesmer has better tools, Mirage adds no new ways to play.

TLDR Mirage adds no new ways to play Mesmer and Mesmer is better at the playstyle Mirage is designed around.

Mirage does not remove your dodges it removes the mobility from dodges in exchange for it not interrupting any action you're doing, so it would be better at attacking and evading which you're claiming otherwise.

I'm not arguing about the playstyles of Mirage, I'm not arguing about the damage potential or whether ambushes, or deceptions or mirrors are good or whether Mesmer can utilize being able to utilize the evade frames during attacks well enough to warrant the mobility trade off. I am only here to argue that your claim of Mesmer is better at evading and attacking than Mirage is false.

No matter how awful Mirage is, no matter how clunky and broken and useless the spec may be, it will still be able to attack while evading better than Mesmer regardless of whether the tradeoff is worth it.

[Refia Montes.3205]

It's not way better though. It's minimal at best. :/ Would have been better if Mirage Cloak lasted 1 sec instead of 3/4 sec to compensate for Mirage's lack of endurance generation. 3/4 sec doesn't feel impactful enough.

[Durzlla.6295]

@Refia Montes.3205 said:It's not way better though. It's minimal at best. :/ Would have been better if Mirage Cloak lasted 1 sec instead of 3/4 sec to compensate for Mirage's lack of endurance generation. 3/4 sec doesn't feel impactful enough.

As much as I enjoy the general playstyle of Mirage I fully agree it's lacking somewhere, I personally think the evade either needs to be a little longer than normal dodge roll, or we need to still be able to move a short distance (even if it's shorter and is a blink), and the window for ambushes definitely needs to be longer, like 1.5s at least.

[Locce.8405]

At this point it is a bit early to discuss numbers since numbers can be tweaked easily enough (and probably already have compared to the demo build). The general mechanics of the Mirage I do like, but that is a matter of taste.What is just wrong is saying something like the mirage has no dodge. The mirage dodge is an upgrade to the normal dodge unless you forgot how to move. You even get superspeed to make up for the increased speed of the dodge roll, although I would say it is a bit expensive to lose a minor trait for that superspeed when it should be implemented in the mirage dodge to begin with.

[Levetty.1279]

@Durzlla.6295 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:Whelp, everything you stated isn't mutually exclusive to Mesmer, so your statement is incorrect.

You've had two times to read my thread before responding now and both times you decided not to, sad.

Oh I've read it twice now, and no matter what you say you'd still be wrong as long as mirage is capable of doing everything core Mesmer can for attacking and evading and gets ANY way else to attack and evade that Mesmer doesn't, you'd still be wrong.

You didnt state "core Mesmer is more mobile than Mirage" which it is, you said it's better at attacking and evading which is kust flat out wrong until Mesmer can dodge in addition to distortion during every skill activation you'll still be wrong.

Mirage takes away your dodges.The tools Core Mesmer has to attack while avoiding damage are better then the ones Mirage adds even before you consider how weak ambush attacks are.Even ignoring the fact that core Mesmer has better tools, Mirage adds no new ways to play.

TLDR Mirage adds no new ways to play Mesmer and Mesmer is better at the playstyle Mirage is designed around.

Mirage does not remove your dodges it removes the mobility from dodges in exchange for it not interrupting any action you're doing, so it would be better at attacking and evading which you're claiming otherwise.

I'm not arguing about the playstyles of Mirage, I'm not arguing about the damage potential or whether ambushes, or deceptions or mirrors are good or whether Mesmer can utilize being able to utilize the evade frames during attacks well enough to warrant the mobility trade off. I am only here to argue that your claim of Mesmer is better at evading and attacking than Mirage is false.

No matter how awful Mirage is, no matter how clunky and broken and useless the spec may be, it will still be able to attack while evading better than Mesmer regardless of whether the tradeoff is worth it.

If you are not talking about those things then please leave the thread or get on topic.

The tools Core Mesmer has to attack while avoiding damage are better then Mirage Cloak. The only tools Mirage adds takes away your normal dodge, one of the foundations of the combat design of the game.

[Durzlla.6295]

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:Whelp, everything you stated isn't mutually exclusive to Mesmer, so your statement is incorrect.

You've had two times to read my thread before responding now and both times you decided not to, sad.

Oh I've read it twice now, and no matter what you say you'd still be wrong as long as mirage is capable of doing everything core Mesmer can for attacking and evading and gets ANY way else to attack and evade that Mesmer doesn't, you'd still be wrong.

You didnt state "core Mesmer is more mobile than Mirage" which it is, you said it's better at attacking and evading which is kust flat out wrong until Mesmer can dodge in addition to distortion during every skill activation you'll still be wrong.

Mirage takes away your dodges.The tools Core Mesmer has to attack while avoiding damage are better then the ones Mirage adds even before you consider how weak ambush attacks are.Even ignoring the fact that core Mesmer has better tools, Mirage adds no new ways to play.

TLDR Mirage adds no new ways to play Mesmer and Mesmer is better at the playstyle Mirage is designed around.

Mirage does not remove your dodges it removes the mobility from dodges in exchange for it not interrupting any action you're doing, so it would be better at attacking and evading which you're claiming otherwise.

I'm not arguing about the playstyles of Mirage, I'm not arguing about the damage potential or whether ambushes, or deceptions or mirrors are good or whether Mesmer can utilize being able to utilize the evade frames during attacks well enough to warrant the mobility trade off. I am only here to argue that your claim of Mesmer is better at evading and attacking than Mirage is false.

No matter how awful Mirage is, no matter how clunky and broken and useless the spec may be, it will still be able to attack while evading better than Mesmer regardless of whether the tradeoff is worth it.

If you are not talking about those things then please leave the thread or get on topic.

The tools Core Mesmer has to attack while avoiding damage are better then Mirage Cloak. The only tools Mirage adds takes away your normal dodge, one of the foundations of the combat design of the game.

Then you may want to change the title of the thread as well as the opening post, because all you're talking about in both OP and title is their ability to evade while attacking.

Don't get upset at me for being on topic just because I don't share your opinion on the state of Mirage.

[Levetty.1279]

@Durzlla.6295 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:Whelp, everything you stated isn't mutually exclusive to Mesmer, so your statement is incorrect.

You've had two times to read my thread before responding now and both times you decided not to, sad.

Oh I've read it twice now, and no matter what you say you'd still be wrong as long as mirage is capable of doing everything core Mesmer can for attacking and evading and gets ANY way else to attack and evade that Mesmer doesn't, you'd still be wrong.

You didnt state "core Mesmer is more mobile than Mirage" which it is, you said it's better at attacking and evading which is kust flat out wrong until Mesmer can dodge in addition to distortion during every skill activation you'll still be wrong.

Mirage takes away your dodges.The tools Core Mesmer has to attack while avoiding damage are better then the ones Mirage adds even before you consider how weak ambush attacks are.Even ignoring the fact that core Mesmer has better tools, Mirage adds no new ways to play.

TLDR Mirage adds no new ways to play Mesmer and Mesmer is better at the playstyle Mirage is designed around.

Mirage does not remove your dodges it removes the mobility from dodges in exchange for it not interrupting any action you're doing, so it would be better at attacking and evading which you're claiming otherwise.

I'm not arguing about the playstyles of Mirage, I'm not arguing about the damage potential or whether ambushes, or deceptions or mirrors are good or whether Mesmer can utilize being able to utilize the evade frames during attacks well enough to warrant the mobility trade off. I am only here to argue that your claim of Mesmer is better at evading and attacking than Mirage is false.

No matter how awful Mirage is, no matter how clunky and broken and useless the spec may be, it will still be able to attack while evading better than Mesmer regardless of whether the tradeoff is worth it.

If you are not talking about those things then please leave the thread or get on topic.

The tools Core Mesmer has to attack while avoiding damage are better then Mirage Cloak. The only tools Mirage adds takes away your normal dodge, one of the foundations of the combat design of the game.

Then you may want to change the title of the thread as well as the opening post, because all you're talking about in both OP and title is their ability to evade while attacking.

Don't get upset at me for being on topic just because I don't share your opinion on the state of Mirage.

And once again because you can't refute the points you ignore them. Please don't mess up this thread like you did the last one.

[MailMail.6534]

@Levetty.1279 said:Traited signits grant invulnerability, remove a condition and don’t replace your auto attacks with weak ambush attacks.Blurred Frenzy hits like a truck in PvE, not too bad in PvP, and has evade built in.Still get your two normal dodges for when you want to move.

Did you know you could get traited signets while using Mirage? Did you know you can use Blurred Frenzy on Mirage? Did you also know that you get superspeed with Mirage Cloak, minimizing the difference in movement lost from being unable to dodge? Did you even play Mirage in the betas? Your thread title isn't supported by what you actually stated. #clickbait

[zealex.9410]

Pretty much everything u said ( well except the dodge movement which can be abjusted) is accessible to mirage as well.

[Esplen.3940]

Yeah Levetty, you haven't added any constructive discussion here. You took a toxic thread you made from the old site, remade it, and brought the toxicity back with it. You didn't even add any new discussion points.

In terms of movement...

What Mirage loses:

Movement on dodge (if not moving forward)

What Mirage gains:

Axe3 is a movement ability.Illusionary Ambush is a movement ability.Mirage Advance is a movement ability.Jaunt is movement ability.Sword ambush is a movement ability.

In terms of evasion...

What Mirage loses:

Movement on dodge (if not moving forward)

What Mirage gains:

Axe3 can dodge abilities through movement and detargeting (PvP modes).Illusionary Ambush can dodge abilies through movement and detargeting (PvP modes).Mirage Advance can dodge abilities through movement and AoE blind.Jaunt can dodge abilities through movement.Sword ambush can dodge abilities through movement.

In terms of attacking while evading

What Mirage loses:

Literally nothing.

What Mirage gains:

Evasion while attacking/channeling (dodging does not interrupt your attacks).Axe3, see above.IAmbush, see above.Mirage Advance, see above.Jaunt, see above.Sword ambush, see above.

Literally everything Mesmer has to attack while avoiding damage, Mirage has and more.

That doesn't mean that Mirage is in any way good, but throwing baseless blanket statements does not address anything.

[Carighan.6758]

Yeah, individually things work out IMO. Mirage is plenty mobile. It's the lack of fitting mechanics between all the individual components of the spec (Ambush, Mirror, Cloak, Axe, Deception, reliance on clones) which break things.

[Levetty.1279]

I have stated how the tools provided by core Mesmer are better then the tools provided by Mirage. I have stated how the tools Mirage gives us is detrimental to the class. I have stated how Mirage adds no new playstyles to the class.

The only counter arguments people can come up with is to ignore what I wrote, insult me and then accuse me of being toxic.

You all get stuck on with 'muh mirage can use core Mesmer skills' and completely ignore that the only things Mirage adds takes away from our dodges and all the good things are already there in core Mesmer, once again no new ways to play which non of you can deny. Do you say Druid is a good DPS spec because it can use Axe/Torch plus grace of the land? Would you say Scarpper is a good DPS spec because it can still use kits? Mirage isn't a good elite spec just because it can use the better tools of core Mesmer.

[Esplen.3940]

@Levetty.1279 said:I have stated how the tools provided by core Mesmer are better then the tools provided by Mirage. I have stated how the tools Mirage gives us is detrimental to the class. I have stated how Mirage adds no new playstyles to the class.

The only counter arguments people can come up with is to ignore what I wrote, insult me and then accuse me of being toxic.

You all get stuck on with 'muh mirage can use core Mesmer skills' and completely ignore that the only things Mirage adds takes away from our dodges and all the good things are already there in core Mesmer, once again no new ways to play which non of you can deny. Do you say Druid is a good DPS spec because it can use Axe/Torch plus grace of the land? Would you say Scarpper is a good DPS spec because it can still use kits? Mirage isn't a good elite spec just because it can use the better tools of core Mesmer.

Mmm, let's look at the facts (evidenced by scrolling up and reading).

Note: All exhibits are stated in chronological order. This allows for an easy, digestible reading of what has happened in this thread by Levetty.It also helps that the entire thread has been Levetty quoting Durzlla, so it creates a nice discussion without jumping around.

Exhibit 1

@Levetty.1279 said:Traited signits grant invulnerability, remove a condition and don’t replace your auto attacks with weak ambush attacks.Blurred Frenzy hits like a truck in PvE, not too bad in PvP, and has evade built in.Still get your two normal dodges for when you want to move.

Levetty states that Core Mesmer has access to methods of evading damage while being able to output damage.These are entirely accurate, but not exclusive to non-Mirage Mesmers. What this means is that any Mesmer has access to these. A Mirage can run traited signets. A Mirage can use Blurred Frenzy. A Mirage still has 2 dodges (which provides movement, albeit in a slightly different manner).

Exhibit 2

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:Whelp, everything you stated isn't mutually exclusive to Mesmer, so your statement is incorrect.

You've had two times to read my thread before responding now and both times you decided not to, sad.

Nothing is added to the discussion. Durzlla points out a vital flaw in Levetty's POV.Levetty decides to switch the burden of proof by stating that there is some proof previously said in this thread and another.

Exhibit 3

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:Oh I've read it twice now, and no matter what you say you'd still be wrong as long as mirage is capable of doing everything core Mesmer can for attacking and evading and gets ANY way else to attack and evade that Mesmer doesn't, you'd still be wrong.

You didnt state "core Mesmer is more mobile than Mirage" which it is, you said it's better at attacking and evading which is kust flat out wrong until Mesmer can dodge in addition to distortion during every skill activation you'll still be wrong.

Mirage takes away your dodges.The tools Core Mesmer has to attack while avoiding damage are better then the ones Mirage adds even before you consider how weak ambush attacks are.Even ignoring the fact that core Mesmer has better tools, Mirage adds no new ways to play.

TLDR Mirage adds no new ways to play Mesmer and Mesmer is better at the playstyle Mirage is designed around.

Durzlla stands firm on being technically correct.Levetty states that Mirage takes away dodges. This is false. Mirage changes dodges, but does not take them away.Levetty states Core Mesmer can attack while avoiding damage better than Mirage. We've already proved that this is false.Levetty compares that to how weak ambushes are. (???????)Levetty states Mirage adds no new ways to play. (??????)Levetty switches the argument.Suddenly, "Mirage adds no new ways to play Mesmer" is the point of the thread.

Note: The two points with ???? are irrelevant to the initial discussion, but relevant to the sudden topic change.

Exhibit 4

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:Mirage does not remove your dodges it removes the mobility from dodges in exchange for it not interrupting any action you're doing, so it would be better at attacking and evading which you're claiming otherwise.

I'm not arguing about the playstyles of Mirage, I'm not arguing about the damage potential or whether ambushes, or deceptions or mirrors are good or whether Mesmer can utilize being able to utilize the evade frames during attacks well enough to warrant the mobility trade off. I am only here to argue that your claim of Mesmer is better at evading and attacking than Mirage is false.

No matter how awful Mirage is, no matter how clunky and broken and useless the spec may be, it will still be able to attack while evading better than Mesmer regardless of whether the tradeoff is worth it.

If you are not talking about those things then please leave the thread or get on topic.

The tools Core Mesmer has to attack while avoiding damage are better then Mirage Cloak. The only tools Mirage adds takes away your normal dodge, one of the foundations of the combat design of the game.

Durzlla tries to bring Levetty back on topic. Good Durzlla.Levetty ignores the attempt at transitioning back to the point of the thread, while still insisting that Mirage loses the capability of dodging.

Exhibit 5

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:Then you may want to change the title of the thread as well as the opening post, because all you're talking about in both OP and title is their ability to evade while attacking.

Don't get upset at me for being on topic just because I don't share your opinion on the state of Mirage.

And once again because you can't refute the points you ignore them. Please don't mess up this thread like you did the last one.

Durzlla points out that Levetty is complaining about something else and masquerading it.Levetty can't refute the points and ignores them by stating that Durzlla can't refute the points and ignores them.

Exhibit 6

@Levetty.1279 said:You all get stuck on with 'muh mirage can use core Mesmer skills' and completely ignore that the only things Mirage adds takes away from our dodges and all the good things are already there in core Mesmer, once again no new ways to play which non of you can deny. Do you say Druid is a good DPS spec because it can use Axe/Torch plus grace of the land? Would you say Scarpper is a good DPS spec because it can still use kits? Mirage isn't a good elite spec just because it can use the better tools of core Mesmer.

Levetty still does not comprehend that a Mirage can dodge.Levetty does make a good point on Mirage balance that all the good things are already in core Mesmer, but that has nothing to do with the topic of attacking while avoiding damage.Levetty tries to use false analogies to make a point.What Levetty does not understand is that Levetty has not made a single point in this thread (ABOUT THE TOPIC, SEE TITLE OF THREAD) that has not been refuted.

Tl;dr: The discussion is not about Mirage being useful, balanced, or good.

The title of the thread is: Core Mesmer is better at attacking while avoiding damage.As stated by many players in this thread, it is objectively untrue.

[Noah.9654]

Tl;dr: The discussion is not about Mirage being useful, balanced, or good.

The title of the thread is: Core Mesmer is better at attacking while avoiding damage.As stated by many players in this thread, it is objectively untrue.

This. This thread is pointless because the OP is objectively false. Mirage is just as good, if not better at evading while doing damage than Core Mesmer. Whether or not Mirage is good at DPS, mobility, or whatever else Levetty is complaining about is subject to another thread.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

Guys you have too much time or how should I start working as a discussion partner of Neue Frankfurter Schule in Constructivism.