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Proposition for a new, base legend/utility skills


ScottBroChill.3254

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I know a lot of us on the forum love to complain above revenant's state in balance and we've all offered up great ideas. Something I was thinking about is how in pvp, and most other areas of the game, glint/shiro power builds are the only ones close to being on par with the meta or average performance. Sure, Kalla serves its purpose as just a pure numbers increase for raids, but its functionality isn't the best. And I was thinking, why is that? Why does the class only feel complete when you can take glint? Why does renegade perform poorly in pvp, regardless of the facts that kalla has somewhat stationary and slow skills?

From my perspective, it's because Glint is the ultimate complimentary legend. It fits with all build designs and brings essential skills to the build like instant cast stunbreak, a super heal, essential boons, and decent traits.

The only other legend that is somewhat complimentary is Shiro, and that is because of the speed boost, the stunbreak evade, and the gap closer.

I know the idea of the class is to take two different playstyles, but I believe it is essential for the class to have a focused legend that you are built around, and a complimentary legend. Hell, the new "condi" elite spec doesn't mesh or compliment our core condi legend, Mallyx. It makes the rev too stationary, doesn't provide defenses, and doesn't enhance offensive capabilities too much. Everything is constantly working against one another and instead of being able to perform two roles at an average level, you perform two roles at an abysmal level. In order for your build to have escapes or get out of jail free cards, you're basically stuck with taking either Glint or Shiro. Even the defensive skills of Dwarf is situational and doesn't provide much survivability for a melee build.

I guess my suggestion is to make a core, complimentary legend, or "not legend" for them. Give them a utility bar option that is mist magic oriented that provides a condi cleanse, a decent stunbreaker that can provide distance, and other just basic essential skills that can make up for the lack of variety that come with legends like Centaur, Demon, Dwarf, and Renegade. Other wise you're stuck with Glint+ builds or Shiro+ builds and you can't really change that because of the essential "oh crap" skills provided by these two legends so you don't get melted every five seconds.

Let me know if I'm completely wrong, but for a class that is supposed to encourage different playstyles, it really seems to discourage trying anything new.

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From an outsider's perspective who does not play Revenant, I agree. I cannot claim the expertise of play experience, but I can come in from an external point of view for whatever it is worth.

The Legends all have great themes and characteristic playstyles in their own way. I think the problem, as you say, is that not all Legends have the necessary responsiveness and versatility needed to grant them usability and play time in PvP settings.

Assassin and Herald are great for this. Despite any inherent clunkiness in their skill execution, I feel as though Demon and Centaur can shine due to sheer utility under the right circumstances.

I see three general options available:

(1) Keep everything as is and try to balance as best as they can, increasing the effectiveness of each Legend. This is okay, but if there is a problem it is likely the lack of diversity you identify or the potential loss in Legend identity and feel.

(2) Create a unique core Legend that provides generalized, versatile utility as you suggest to always allow Revenants a way to cover their bases. Sure, build or profession weaknesses are acceptable on some level, but taking this generalized Legend would be at the cost of something with more niche effectiveness. This is an okay solution too, though you may just end up with cases of Shiro+Elite or general Legend+Elite. Is that better? Also, mobility is so critical to how PvP and Revenant plays, could a general Legend beat out Shiro without just taking over some of its own thematics?

(3) Allow Revenants access to three Legends. I'm not sure this is the best solution, but hear me out.

Part of the appeal of the Legends are their niche utility and characteristic playstyle. No one Legend is without some kind of usefulness, but the niche utility a Legend can provide may not be universally versatile enough to take up the precious real estate on two Legendary slots, at least not without ramping them up. Then you get into the territory of over performing skills and subsequent nerfs.

Providing access to a third Legend allows each to maintain their niche, their identity, without over-costing the Revenant play space and effectiveness for their use. I think it would increase the versatility of Revenant builds and help strengthen their core identity and appeal as a utility caster, Legend channeler.

There would need to still be balance regarding any clunkiness in mechanics and individual skills. Such an addition shouldn't be justification for due process of balance. That said, I think it would help better hallmark the identity of Revenant as a profession rather than just trying to play catch-up to all the others. Players say Revenant feels unfinished, lacking in some major crippling way, and I think this might be a way to resolve that.

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(3) Allow Revenants access to three Legends. I'm not sure this is the best solution, but hear me out.

Part of the appeal of the Legends are their niche utility and characteristic playstyle. No one Legend is without some kind of usefulness, but the niche utility a Legend can provide may not be universally versatile enough to take up the precious real estate on two Legendary slots, at least not without ramping them up. Then you get into the territory of over performing skills and subsequent nerfs.

I actually am sort of fond of this proposition. It might clash with elementalists identity a bit, but it could solve problems and I think cooldowns of legend swapping and energy management would keep it from being overpowered. Even this idea could be combined into having a generalized legend. Basically an f2 or f3 that allows you to un-attune to legends.

But I won't shift focus from what you're suggesting too much by incorporating my ideas. In fact, I think my idea of having an option to not channel a legend might make for a good elite spec.

But, back on topic. Another solution that incorporates your 1) solution, is to overhaul a skill or two on Demon, Centaur, and Dwarf that compliments the revs quick, bursty, and slippery aspects. I believe mobility should be a larger focus for revs strengths than it currently is, for all its playstyles. And it doesn't have to be in the form of thieves or mesmers mobility in being able to travel great distances fast or have extreme i-frames, but more of a combat oriented repositioning. add some sidesteps, some backward leaps, or something to create distance. I mean this sort of goes with what I was saying before about the importance of glint and shiro, in additon they are the only legends with disengage tools which is something the rev depends on because it doesn't have a lot of the sustain tools that warr or guardian have.

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I agree with what you are saying, Scott, and would love if they did it. I do think Shiro is also the second best "complimentary" legend (less so with the removal of quickness) due to the mobility in its kit, but it would be nice to have alternatives from a neutral legend that are not necessarily made with a more assassin-like playstyle in mind.

Also, from a purely thematic standpoint, I would appreciate a "neutral" legend. I spend most of my Rev life in Ventari, and it feels a bit weird to be channeling legends that conflict directly with the theme and purpose behind Ventari. Glint is of course an option, but I dunno...I am not the biggest fan of how it approaches boons. I probably place a higher importance on thematics and concept than most, but it is a huge component in how I can really enjoy a class on a deeper level.

Alternatively from your and Allarius' ideas, others have suggested being able to choose one skill to "mix and match" with in the options, per legend. For example, in Ventari I could sacrifice Protective Solace for Riposting Shadows, or a Shiro rev could choose Purifying Essence instead of Impossible Odds for some condi clear. This would be a nice potential option, but could be a little clunky and difficult to implement, and may be hard to balance as well. There is also the idea of them creating a fourth utility skill for each legend, which could help fill in gaps and allow for more choice as far as builds go.

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@Yannir.4132 said:I actually think revenant should have a general set of utilities, a heal and an elite skill that are not tied to a legend. Instead you could slot them anywhere.

Agree. I think that would be good for a variety of reasons. First - it would bring a lot of flexibilty (for which Rev thirst so much...). Second - it seems as a relatively easy solution/implementation for devs to make.

Someone on this very forum once complained about legend being stucked with specific type of utilities - like calla with those turrets/summons. And ofc we can adress it to every legend. Giving us some general utilities would break this stiff pattern and allow for more flexibility and creativity. That could also solve the problem of smaller utility number compared to other professions.

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@Bart.5296 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:I actually think revenant should have a general set of utilities, a heal and an elite skill that are not tied to a legend. Instead you could slot them anywhere.

Agree. I think that would be good for a variety of reasons. First - it would bring a lot of flexibilty (for which Rev thirst so much...). Second - it seems as a relatively easy solution/implementation for devs to make.

Someone on this very forum once complained about legend being stucked with specific type of utilities - like calla with those turrets/summons. And ofc we can adress it to every legend. Giving us some general utilities would break this stiff pattern and allow for more flexibility and creativity. That could also solve the problem of smaller utility number that other professions.

And who knows, maybe it would even fix Kalla by accident.

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I'm down for general swappable utilities, the suggestion for a general non-legend channel was more so to stick with the theme of not being able to swap out individual utilities while giving us a general purpose bar option. But it looks like more people are into the swappable which I'm alright with lol

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i get what you want but also consider the theme of the class

we have 10 utilities to use while other class have 5sure other class can build their 5 utilities to any scenario but lets face it what all of them bring in usualbunker class takes usually 1-2 stun break, 1-2 condi cleanse skills. 1 elite and 1 heal skill which more support then dmgdmg class takes usually 1 condi cleanse, block dmg/evade dmg skill, 1 break stun skill and 1 elite which do heavy dmg or cc

revenant hasshiro - heal skill , 1 evade/break stun, teleport and dmg increase, super speed and dmg increase, huge ccherald - heal skill , break stun, boon aoe dmg, boon dmg increase, boon ccso we have in average 15 sec heal skill, 2 stun break, evade, teleport, aoe dmg, dmg increase and 2 cc while having boons - what else do you need guys.... common

but now the other legendif i want to modify your build to less boon but more sustain on a point - jalisjalis bring heal skill which cleanse 5 condition, stability which is great for a team and weakness, cc, dmg reduction and stun break which cost too much and reduce dmg

if i want to go healer i will take ventari which has heal skill, block projectile, huge heal skill, 3 condi cleanse, cc and cleanse skill - on paper seems nice

if i want to go condition build with mallyx i have good heal skill, stun break, remove boon and aoe skill with ok elite skill

so almost in any case i have 2 stun break, 1-2 cc, weak condi handling.

why shiro/herald is popular?its able to combine for dmg build the best output even with no condi cleanse abilities which is pure dmg.but when you drop bit the dmg you see the flaw of other legends

if i take shiro and jalis - i cannot sustain condition dmg at all while stability get corrupt or remove i have only 20% dmg reduction and a 40 nrg elite which stun break so i have to save it and restore nrg.if i take ventari and jalis for bunker again i cannot sustain condition and even direct dmg i can have trouble as i dont have much evade/block skillsif i take mallyx again cannot sustain conditions as resistance got removed/corrupted easily and my skills dont do much dmg to pressure versus moving target

on paper revenant should be op with 10 utilities and 10 weapon skills but in reality weaker cause of the utilities themselves

the solution is to fix them first before adding new ones.

jalisvengful hammer are nice - increase dmg reduction to 50% both condi and direct - increase nrg from 5 to 15 so for 5 sec its like the elite 40 nrg.RotGD - reduce nrg to 30 to be par as stun break. proc aoe barrier each second of 1.1k (+0.75*healing power). 5 seconds. cd 10 secondsthis way you can handle more conditions and direct dmg and time your stun break or barrier to help you sustain more.

mallyxeasy fix to mallyx should be that resistance is stacks each second so its harder to corrupt it from you. so healing skill give you 1 stack of resistance of 1 sec for each condition on you. up to 5.although warrior will be the counter of than with direct dmg and resistance but its a good thing

ventaripurifying essence - cleanse 5 conditionsstill great healing but no block or evade abilities at all but as a healer he should move with the party and they should babysit him.

now combination:bunker - jalis/ventari - now can cleanse more, sustain more and easy to buff or nerfed the nrg/barrier to the metacondition - mallyx/shiro - more evade or mallyx/herald for heal skill and boons or mallyx/renegade or mallyx/jallis for more sustainsustain dmg - shiro/jalis bit less dmg and boons but more sustain on point with better dmg reduction

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