WvW also needs nerfs to passive traits

[Dawdler.8521]

@nativity.3057 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@nativity.3057 said:The only invuln class that is overtuned is Mirage, but everybody knows that. All we can do is wait for a future balance patch.Yet druids can outsustain them, spellbreakers roflstomp them and thieves outdamage them. Maybe its a "learn to play" thing?

Joke all you want, but it's truth that the class is currently overtuned. Overtuned doesn't mean "omg i can't kill this class, too easy too strong Anet pls nerf", but means that the class does a bit of everything while still being a Mesmer. There's a reason why it's still the best PvP class.

Next time, instead of pinpointing on the last sentence, try to actively contribute to the conversation.What am going to actively contribute to that? In your post you never offered any reason for the mirage being the only "invouln class" that's overtuned to begin with. You just say it at the end. And for the discussion, that's just laughable because the mirage may just be the class with overtuned

active

skills.

A class such as the warrior definetly fit the description far better, because it is truly the only "invouln class" that's overtuned. It's always been overtuned not due to the actual invouln skills - but due to it's hp regen. Even a bad warrior is carried by the hp regen. A bad mesmer dies in an instant. Because they have little to no passive traits to protect them against enemy skill. Worst case scenario I could maybe possibly agree with isnt even a mirage - boon chrono is far, far worse at playing the invoulnerability game when they set their mind to it.

[nativity.3057]

@schloumou.3982 said:

@nativity.3057 said:The only players that can complain about passive invulns are roaming guards, revs, and necros (power of course).

I main Engi and I hate the passive S proc. It interrupts my skills (heal, stealth, etc), locks me out of cleans when condi bombed, is predictable in general and it makes outnumbered fights a lot harder and unfun if you play against it. Problem is, the other trait options are so utter garbage that its better to live with that than having basically nothing at all. Warri is in a simular spot even though EP is way stronger. We need strong active options that reward people who dont want to rely on passive procs. Until then Id gladly take the nerfs to those unfun traits in WvW.

Having a passive invuln is better than not having one at all, especially in a game mode like WvW.Damage in general has been a problem with the expansions. The latest balance patch helped with some of the most problematic offenders, but condition damage hasn't been balanced since HoT released. Invulns don't help against condition damage, so nerfing passive traits won't do much when you get condi bombed.WvW and PvP are two entirely different modes. Damage in WvW is much higher than in PvP. The cooldown increase makes sense when applying it to a sPvP setting, but WvW is not PvP. Should blobs just be able to run over anyone? I wouldn't want a nerf that would promote blobbing even further.These passive traits that people complain about have been in the game since launch, yet somehow it became a hot topic after the second expansion.

Again, there are counters to invulnerables. Condition damage is one. Endure Pain and Signet of Stone doesn't stop CC.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@nativity.3057 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@nativity.3057 said:The only invuln class that is overtuned is Mirage, but everybody knows that. All we can do is wait for a future balance patch.Yet druids can outsustain them, spellbreakers roflstomp them and thieves outdamage them. Maybe its a "learn to play" thing?

Joke all you want, but it's truth that the class is currently overtuned. Overtuned doesn't mean "omg i can't kill this class, too easy too strong Anet pls nerf", but means that the class does a bit of everything while still being a Mesmer. There's a reason why it's still the best PvP class.

Next time, instead of pinpointing on the last sentence, try to actively contribute to the conversation.What am going to actively contribute to that? In your post you never offered any reason for the mirage being the only "invouln class" that's overtuned to begin with. You just say it at the end. And for the discussion, that's just laughable because the mirage may just be the class with overtuned

active

skills.

A class such as the warrior definetly fit the description far better, because it is truly the only "invouln class" that's overtuned. It's always been overtuned not due to the actual invouln skills - but due to it's hp regen. Even a bad warrior is carried by the hp regen. A bad mesmer dies in an instant. Because they have little to no passive traits to protect them against enemy skill. Worst case scenario I could maybe possibly agree with isnt even a mirage - boon chrono is far, far worse at playing the invoulnerability game when they set their mind to it.

I mean, you did contradict yourself saying "passive invuln isn't the real issue for warriors, but Adrenal Health is".I don't disagree with that statement at all. While Adrenal Health has been nerfed in PvP, WvW warriors can still abuse this trait, especially core Warriors. Bad Warriors aren't carried by Endure Pain/Defy Pain, but by Adrenal Health. I wouldn't mind if this trait only activated if a burst skill lands.

I never specified that Mirages have passive invulns, but that the entire spec is overtuned. Even so, a bad mesmer has more options of surviving than any other class.

[Zero.3871]

@nativity.3057 said:

@schloumou.3982 said:

@nativity.3057 said:The only players that can complain about passive invulns are roaming guards, revs, and necros (power of course).

I main Engi and I hate the passive S proc. It interrupts my skills (heal, stealth, etc), locks me out of cleans when condi bombed, is predictable in general and it makes outnumbered fights a lot harder and unfun if you play against it. Problem is, the other trait options are so utter garbage that its better to live with that than having basically nothing at all. Warri is in a simular spot even though EP is way stronger. We need strong active options that reward people who dont want to rely on passive procs. Until then Id gladly take the nerfs to those unfun traits in WvW.

Having a passive invuln is better than not having one at all, especially in a game mode like WvW.Damage in general has been a problem with the expansions. The latest balance patch helped with some of the most problematic offenders, but condition damage hasn't been balanced since HoT released. Invulns don't help against condition damage, so nerfing passive traits won't do much when you get condi bombed.WvW and PvP are two entirely different modes. Damage in WvW is much higher than in PvP. The cooldown increase makes sense when applying it to a sPvP setting, but WvW is not PvP. Should blobs just be able to run over anyone? I wouldn't want a nerf that would promote blobbing even further.These passive traits that people complain about have been in the game since launch, yet somehow it became a hot topic after the second expansion.

Again, there are counters to invulnerables. Condition damage is one. Endure Pain and Signet of Stone doesn't stop CC.

1.) condis get nerfed hardly, thats the reason only 1 spec is still running it (scourge), every other is playing on powerbuilds.2.) if you Play power build you cannot change your equip in 1 sec if you see a warrior. so you have to fight endure pain with a power build. and for power there is no Counter against e.g. endure pain.3.) yes, invuls where in the game since release, but spellbreaker got full Counter and Mirage got Mirage cloak. both skills/traits increased the uptime for invuls/blocks etc. even more campared to the already great uptime for these classes before hot. this classes have nearly 50% uptime for that mechanics( e.g. 30 secs of blocking/invul/dodging per Minute). thats simply tooooo much for mechanics that completely negate all incoming dmg. and classes that dont have that invuls are totally out of game...

Balance should bring classes clother to each other, but currently there are to high differences in sustain between classes. its okay to be tanky, but full berzi warriors are able to stand every dmg for 20 sec while hitting you with 10k+. equal for mesmers... while this classes have great mobility.

anet should prove classes for the Kind of sustain, and the Overall uptimes. so finally classes shouldnt have Access to all forms of sustain (mobility, dodges, invis, blocks, invuls) like mesmer. and shouldnt be able to be 50% of time unattackable WHILE hitting you that hard like warrior. while other classes (necro) have NOTHING of it.

finally most People say you Need passives on low cooldowns to Counter e.g. mesmer Spikes(that are completely overperforming). but like most People in this Forum already said: good balancing is NOT countering 1 broken mechanic with another one.nerf the Spikes, nerf the passives and bring classes that dont have that great Access to those skills back to the game.

[nativity.3057]

@Zero.3871 said:

@nativity.3057 said:

@schloumou.3982 said:

@nativity.3057 said:The only players that can complain about passive invulns are roaming guards, revs, and necros (power of course).

I main Engi and I hate the passive S proc. It interrupts my skills (heal, stealth, etc), locks me out of cleans when condi bombed, is predictable in general and it makes outnumbered fights a lot harder and unfun if you play against it. Problem is, the other trait options are so utter garbage that its better to live with that than having basically nothing at all. Warri is in a simular spot even though EP is way stronger. We need strong active options that reward people who dont want to rely on passive procs. Until then Id gladly take the nerfs to those unfun traits in WvW.

Having a passive invuln is better than not having one at all, especially in a game mode like WvW.Damage in general has been a problem with the expansions. The latest balance patch helped with some of the most problematic offenders, but condition damage hasn't been balanced since HoT released. Invulns don't help against condition damage, so nerfing passive traits won't do much when you get condi bombed.WvW and PvP are two entirely different modes. Damage in WvW is much higher than in PvP. The cooldown increase makes sense when applying it to a sPvP setting, but WvW is not PvP. Should blobs just be able to run over anyone? I wouldn't want a nerf that would promote blobbing even further.These passive traits that people complain about have been in the game since launch, yet somehow it became a hot topic after the second expansion.

Again, there are counters to invulnerables. Condition damage is one. Endure Pain and Signet of Stone doesn't stop CC.

1.) condis get nerfed hardly, thats the reason only 1 spec is still running it (scourge), every other is playing on powerbuilds.2.) if you Play power build you cannot change your equip in 1 sec if you see a warrior. so you have to fight endure pain with a power build. and for power there is no Counter against e.g. endure pain.3.) yes, invuls where in the game since release, but spellbreaker got full Counter and Mirage got Mirage cloak. both skills/traits increased the uptime for invuls/blocks etc. even more campared to the already great uptime for these classes before hot. this classes have nearly 50% uptime for that mechanics( e.g. 30 secs of blocking/invul/dodging per Minute). thats simply tooooo much for mechanics that completely negate all incoming dmg. and classes that dont have that invuls are totally out of game...

Balance should bring classes clother to each other, but currently there are to high differences in sustain between classes. its okay to be tanky, but full berzi warriors are able to stand every dmg for 20 sec while hitting you with 10k+. equal for mesmers... while this classes have great mobility.

anet should prove classes for the Kind of sustain, and the Overall uptimes. so finally classes shouldnt have Access to all forms of sustain (mobility, dodges, invis, blocks, invuls) like mesmer. and shouldnt be able to be 50% of time unattackable WHILE hitting you that hard like warrior. while other classes (necro) have NOTHING of it.

finally most People say you Need passives on low cooldowns to Counter e.g. mesmer Spikes(that are completely overperforming). but like most People in this Forum already said: good balancing is NOT countering 1 broken mechanic with another one.nerf the Spikes, nerf the passives and bring classes that dont have that great Access to those skills back to the game.

1) hardly or hard? The condi mechanic HoT brought hasn't been balanced, especially with PoF. I hear constant complaints about how condition cleanses/corruptions work, and I agree with these complaints. Condi Scourge is great in zerging, but I was talking more about roaming builds. Sure, power builds end fights faster, but fighting condi Mesmers, condi Thieves, and condi Rangers is just as unfun, if not more.

2) Most power builds have some CC mechanic/utility in them. Mesmer GS5, interrupt mantra, Thieves running interrupt trait or Basilisk, Ranger LB4, Druid daze, Soulbeast merge, Smokescale, etc.

3) TBH, core Warrior is much stronger than SB, and good players know not to proc it. Some newbie is proccing it next to you? Only thing you can control there is the distance between you and that player ;)

As a roaming guard main who swapped to warrior because of how much better it is, I would love it if other specs were in line with the current roaming meta (especially since fights won't be stale). But I have more faith in Anet not over-nerfing than I have in them bringing other classes up from the ditches they were left in.

[schloumou.3982]

@nativity.3057 said:

@schloumou.3982 said:

@nativity.3057 said:The only players that can complain about passive invulns are roaming guards, revs, and necros (power of course).

I main Engi and I hate the passive S proc. It interrupts my skills (heal, stealth, etc), locks me out of cleans when condi bombed, is predictable in general and it makes outnumbered fights a lot harder and unfun if you play against it. Problem is, the other trait options are so utter garbage that its better to live with that than having basically nothing at all. Warri is in a simular spot even though EP is way stronger. We need strong active options that reward people who dont want to rely on passive procs. Until then Id gladly take the nerfs to those unfun traits in WvW.

Having a passive invuln is better than not having one at all, especially in a game mode like WvW.

What are you even talking about? Just slot one in your utility bar.

Damage in general has been a problem with the expansions. The latest balance patch helped with some of the most problematic offenders, but condition damage hasn't been balanced since HoT released.

There has just been a condi damage overhault. (Not a super well though trough one, but an attempt was made and power is dominant in smallscale atm.) But I agree. Damage (Power and Condi) is overtuned and Id like to see the reduction transfered from sPvP aswell.

Invulns don't help against condition damage, so nerfing passive traits won't do much when you get condi bombed.

There are other passive traits than invulns. As a warrior you should know because you have the strongest passive anti CC mechanic traited. Also I was talking about not beeing forced into passives to allow players to actively manage conditions.

WvW and PvP are two entirely different modes. Damage in WvW is much higher than in PvP. The cooldown increase makes sense when applying it to a sPvP setting, but WvW is not PvP. Should blobs just be able to run over anyone?

You can easily dive a zerg without passive traits. (Dodge against the movement direction of the zerg -> block -> dodge -> invuln, for example. If you dont have block mix in blink after invuln or something.) If the zerg however hates you and chases you around the map passive traits wont safe you either, only mobility/invis can.

These passive traits that people complain about have been in the game since launch, yet somehow it became a hot topic after the second expansion.

No idea how something beeing there for a long time is an pro or contra argument for anything.

Again, there are counters to invulnerables.

Again the discussion is about passives in general.

Endure Pain and Signet of Stone doesn't stop CC.

But Last Stand does.

[nativity.3057]

@schloumou.3982 said:

@nativity.3057 said:

@schloumou.3982 said:

@nativity.3057 said:The only players that can complain about passive invulns are roaming guards, revs, and necros (power of course).

I main Engi and I hate the passive S proc. It interrupts my skills (heal, stealth, etc), locks me out of cleans when condi bombed, is predictable in general and it makes outnumbered fights a lot harder and unfun if you play against it. Problem is, the other trait options are so utter garbage that its better to live with that than having basically nothing at all. Warri is in a simular spot even though EP is way stronger. We need strong active options that reward people who dont want to rely on passive procs. Until then Id gladly take the nerfs to those unfun traits in WvW.

Having a passive invuln is better than not having one at all, especially in a game mode like WvW.

What are you even talking about? Just slot one in your utility bar.

What are you even talking about? I was talking about passive invulns

Damage in general has been a problem with the expansions. The latest balance patch helped with some of the most problematic offenders, but condition damage hasn't been balanced since HoT released.

There has just been a condi damage overhault. (Not a super well though trough one, but an attempt was made and power is dominant in smallscale atm.)

Invulns don't help against condition damage, so nerfing passive traits won't do much when you get condi bombed.

There are other passive traits than invulns. As a warrior you should know because you have the strongest passive anti CC mechanic traited. Also I was talking about not beeing forced into passives to allow players to actively manage conditions.

Elixer S cures conditions according to Engineer traitsWhich condition is cleansed is a gamble given how conditions are currently cleansed

WvW and PvP are two entirely different modes. Damage in WvW is much higher than in PvP. The cooldown increase makes sense when applying it to a sPvP setting, but WvW is not PvP. Should blobs just be able to run over anyone?

You can easily dive a zerg without passive traits. (Dodge against the movement direction of the zerg -> block -> dodge -> invuln, for example. If you dont have block mix in blink after invuln or something.) If the zerg however hates you and chases you around the map passive traits wont safe you either, only mobility/invis can.

Instead of dying in 10 secs with passive traits, you'll die in 5.I don't see why a solo roamer would dive into an enemy zerg unless you're me trolling with Rampage

These passive traits that people complain about have been in the game since launch, yet somehow it became a hot topic after the second expansion.

No idea how something beeing there for a long time is an pro or contra argument for anything.

Passive traits weren't an issue before, makes me wonder why it's an issue now. Before, players would reconcile with the fact that Warriors have no range poke so having Endure Pain made sense. Now it's an issue because someone can't instaburst a Warrior from range?

Again, there are counters to invulnerables.

Again the discussion is about passives in general.

Again, invulnerables are counterable, passive or active.

Endure Pain and Signet of Stone doesn't stop CC.

But Last Stand does.

Last Stand procs every 40 seconds. Most roaming Warrior builds don't use the Balanced Stance active utility because of conditions. More often than not, the only stability roaming Warriors have is the passive Last Stand. That means every 35 seconds out of 40 seconds the Warrior is susceptible to CC. 30 seconds out of 40 if the Warrior is running Shield. That's more than enough time for two CC rotations.