Bring PvP passive nerfs to WvW

[X T D.6458]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

What annoys me a lot is the double invulnerability that you can run on Engineers and Warriors, the trait part needs to be nerfed in functionality to reduce damage instead of giving immunity. This current combo makes it incredibly annoying to fight these two classes and leaves little counter play, aside from just waiting it out. This encourages players, especially on warriors to go full idiot mode.

You need to add more counters to stealth, this garbage mechanic continues to be broken and I will never understand why you guys let it stay like this. It should be for either offense or defense, it should not allow you to do both. Lack of counter play and poor balance ruins any fun in fighting classes with access to stealth, it is just frustrating and downright irritating.

The CC spam is out of control, last night we were attacking a t3 keep, we were attacking the outer wall and I am getting knocked around all over the place by siege that is placed inside the inner area. Just constantly being thrown around.

[Jora.5471]

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

So nerf the AOE's like everyone with a skilled mindset has been asking for. All AOE's should be balanced such as the engineer mortar kit is a balanced AOE or how warrior has balanced AOE (hint: warrior has none other than bubble) IMO AOE shouldn't even exist as a thing outside of being centered around the character itself like how warrior greatsword burst is. Necromancer (scourge) is the biggest offender here. Reaper is actually the balanced spec. I've always thought marks were imbalanced too TBH. They should flash before actually triggering like the scourges garbage does currently, since a staff rework isn't practical. As for scourge, it should be overhauled entirely.

Nerf AOE spam. AOE's are fine if they aren't spam - Eg. Meteor Shower. But the spam has to go.

Then reconsider nerfing the passive garbage again.

As long as it doesn't reach PvE.

[X T D.6458]

@runeblade.7514 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

So nerf the AOE's like everyone with a skilled mindset has been asking for. All AOE's should be balanced such as the engineer mortar kit is a balanced AOE or how warrior has balanced AOE (hint: warrior has none other than bubble) IMO AOE shouldn't even exist as a thing outside of being centered around the character itself like how warrior greatsword burst is. Necromancer (scourge) is the biggest offender here. Reaper is actually the balanced spec. I've always thought marks were imbalanced too TBH. They should flash before actually triggering like the scourges garbage does currently, since a staff rework isn't practical. As for scourge, it should be overhauled entirely.

Nerf AOE spam. AOE's are fine if they aren't spam - Eg. Meteor Shower. But the spam has to go.

Then reconsider nerfing the passive garbage again.

As long as it doesn't reach PvE.

Yes please think of the hundred people attacking a single target, what would become of them? They might actually have to GASP pay attention!

[Jora.5471]

@X T D.6458 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

So nerf the AOE's like everyone with a skilled mindset has been asking for. All AOE's should be balanced such as the engineer mortar kit is a balanced AOE or how warrior has balanced AOE (hint: warrior has none other than bubble) IMO AOE shouldn't even exist as a thing outside of being centered around the character itself like how warrior greatsword burst is. Necromancer (scourge) is the biggest offender here. Reaper is actually the balanced spec. I've always thought marks were imbalanced too TBH. They should flash before actually triggering like the scourges garbage does currently, since a staff rework isn't practical. As for scourge, it should be overhauled entirely.

Nerf AOE spam. AOE's are fine if they aren't spam - Eg. Meteor Shower. But the spam has to go.

Then reconsider nerfing the passive garbage again.

As long as it doesn't reach PvE.

Yes please think of the hundred people attacking a single target, what would become of them? They might actually have to

GASP

pay attention!

Or the solo player doing heart events, or the Fractal players doing fractals, or the raiders doing raiding.

[X T D.6458]

@runeblade.7514 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

So nerf the AOE's like everyone with a skilled mindset has been asking for. All AOE's should be balanced such as the engineer mortar kit is a balanced AOE or how warrior has balanced AOE (hint: warrior has none other than bubble) IMO AOE shouldn't even exist as a thing outside of being centered around the character itself like how warrior greatsword burst is. Necromancer (scourge) is the biggest offender here. Reaper is actually the balanced spec. I've always thought marks were imbalanced too TBH. They should flash before actually triggering like the scourges garbage does currently, since a staff rework isn't practical. As for scourge, it should be overhauled entirely.

Nerf AOE spam. AOE's are fine if they aren't spam - Eg. Meteor Shower. But the spam has to go.

Then reconsider nerfing the passive garbage again.

As long as it doesn't reach PvE.

Yes please think of the hundred people attacking a single target, what would become of them? They might actually have to

GASP

pay attention!

Or the solo player doing heart events, or the Fractal players doing fractals, or the raiders doing raiding.

Yea God forbid they have to play better! That's just madness.

[Sylosi.6503]

@Ruufio.1496 said:So nerf the AOE's like everyone with a skilled mindset has been asking for.

Skilled mindset in GW2, in WvW, thx for the laugh.

[Jora.5471]

@X T D.6458 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

So nerf the AOE's like everyone with a skilled mindset has been asking for. All AOE's should be balanced such as the engineer mortar kit is a balanced AOE or how warrior has balanced AOE (hint: warrior has none other than bubble) IMO AOE shouldn't even exist as a thing outside of being centered around the character itself like how warrior greatsword burst is. Necromancer (scourge) is the biggest offender here. Reaper is actually the balanced spec. I've always thought marks were imbalanced too TBH. They should flash before actually triggering like the scourges garbage does currently, since a staff rework isn't practical. As for scourge, it should be overhauled entirely.

Nerf AOE spam. AOE's are fine if they aren't spam - Eg. Meteor Shower. But the spam has to go.

Then reconsider nerfing the passive garbage again.

As long as it doesn't reach PvE.

Yes please think of the hundred people attacking a single target, what would become of them? They might actually have to

GASP

pay attention!

Or the solo player doing heart events, or the Fractal players doing fractals, or the raiders doing raiding.

Yea God forbid they have to play better! That's just madness.

Yes, they should totally pull one mob at a time so they don't wipe and not play in zones with mob spam everywhere because all classes got nerfed that are meant for WvW.

[X T D.6458]

@runeblade.7514 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

So nerf the AOE's like everyone with a skilled mindset has been asking for. All AOE's should be balanced such as the engineer mortar kit is a balanced AOE or how warrior has balanced AOE (hint: warrior has none other than bubble) IMO AOE shouldn't even exist as a thing outside of being centered around the character itself like how warrior greatsword burst is. Necromancer (scourge) is the biggest offender here. Reaper is actually the balanced spec. I've always thought marks were imbalanced too TBH. They should flash before actually triggering like the scourges garbage does currently, since a staff rework isn't practical. As for scourge, it should be overhauled entirely.

Nerf AOE spam. AOE's are fine if they aren't spam - Eg. Meteor Shower. But the spam has to go.

Then reconsider nerfing the passive garbage again.

As long as it doesn't reach PvE.

Yes please think of the hundred people attacking a single target, what would become of them? They might actually have to

GASP

pay attention!

Or the solo player doing heart events, or the Fractal players doing fractals, or the raiders doing raiding.

Yea God forbid they have to play better! That's just madness.

Yes, they should totally pull one mob at a time so they don't wipe and not play in zones with mob spam everywhere because all classes got nerfed that are meant for WvW.

I totally sympathize with your struggles against the menace known as scripted AI. Maybe you should discuss it in another section with other people who share your concerns.

[Jora.5471]

@X T D.6458 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

So nerf the AOE's like everyone with a skilled mindset has been asking for. All AOE's should be balanced such as the engineer mortar kit is a balanced AOE or how warrior has balanced AOE (hint: warrior has none other than bubble) IMO AOE shouldn't even exist as a thing outside of being centered around the character itself like how warrior greatsword burst is. Necromancer (scourge) is the biggest offender here. Reaper is actually the balanced spec. I've always thought marks were imbalanced too TBH. They should flash before actually triggering like the scourges garbage does currently, since a staff rework isn't practical. As for scourge, it should be overhauled entirely.

Nerf AOE spam. AOE's are fine if they aren't spam - Eg. Meteor Shower. But the spam has to go.

Then reconsider nerfing the passive garbage again.

As long as it doesn't reach PvE.

Yes please think of the hundred people attacking a single target, what would become of them? They might actually have to

GASP

pay attention!

Or the solo player doing heart events, or the Fractal players doing fractals, or the raiders doing raiding.

Yea God forbid they have to play better! That's just madness.

Yes, they should totally pull one mob at a time so they don't wipe and not play in zones with mob spam everywhere because all classes got nerfed that are meant for WvW.

I totally sympathize with your struggles against the menace known as scripted AI. Maybe you should discuss it in another section with other people who share your concerns.

If ANet nerf AoE spam and passives while also bringing those changes to PvE, then ANet would have to rebalance the entire PvE mode from top to bottom. Before ANet gave underwater weapons the ability to attack up to 3 enemies from autoattack, Underwater combat was boring and annoying and annoyingly difficult for the wrong reasons. There is just way too much mob spam in PvE. ANet would have to go through each open world zones to remove mobs and then nerf Dynamic events. Fractal/raid team would have to go back and look at each instances and rebalance it.

No matter how much you sarcastically dismiss PvE, nerfing AoE spam is not realistic because of PvE. ;) If ANet has to do that much work just to see it is a little bit more fun for WvW, its not worth it. Instead, create a time machine so you can go back in time to suggest nerfing AoE spam right when Guild Wars 2 was starting to be a concept.

[Celsith.2753]

@runeblade.7514 said:

Or the solo player doing heart events

......

[Swamurabi.7890]

You shouldn't limit your examination to just passives. Boons and Conditions should be looked at to lower lag.

[aandiarie.7195]

Can you turn down graphics a bit on bubbles? Some people from Australia and Asian countries get very bad lag when a lot of bubbles are deployed. I do too, but for them their screen seems to freeze a bit.

[intox.6347]

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:Adopting the cloud formation will reduce the effectiveness of AOEs.

This is more a need to change tactics rather than nerf AOE.

Don't bunch up behind a commander.Spread out.Adopt the cloud formation.

Exactly this.I see people living 2014 WvW ... melleetrain stacked in one point.... lol thats exactly what makes scourge effective... bunch of stacked booned targets on one spot :D Once they start moving... and start clouding... scourge is not that effective. At better groups (WvW guilds) ... you see cloud formation... and its pretty effective. But this ppl run through 20 red circles with their zerk mirage and then "scourge aoe op .... "

And passives in wvw.... in roaming they can be nerfed.... but in group they are better be here... so u cant choose one. So better left them like now.

[Felipe.1807]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

That its true, but how about just nerfing damage? Damage is way over the top right now, its ridiculous, while in big scale fights you have Scourges being walking AoE fields of death on small scale fights you have mesmers being able to kill you in less then second(It is not exageration)...considering how Mesmers and Scourges are the main source of complaims of both WvW and sPvP players, you guys have considered disabling this 2 specs from being played on competitive game modes till you guys figure out what to do with then?

[Lord Of The Tree.5249]

Instead of worrying about balance ANET should deal with the hackers. That is the bigger problem in wvw. Next would be an overhaul of the pip system. Right now around Tues or Weds of the week WvW is usually dead.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Eval.2371 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

I don't mean to put words into your mouth, but that very well illuminates part of the problem with wvw. There are to many long range skills that are in aoe format that are safe(Low risk, high impact skills). To combat that we have passive defenses that carry us into the fray. I agree that nerfing one and not the other would make large group fights less fun. Maybe it is time to look at both?

Also PS, Thank you for being so active and open to discussion lately.

Everything about this post. Surely you must recognize that this problem is multifaceted and that doing nothing is still very damaging to the state of the game.

Nerf it all! Nerf it alllllllll! >:o

[Orpheal.8263]

The overall balancing of PvP/WvW (the game in general) would be helped by ALOT, if:

1) The Condition and Boon System would get finally overworked with the goal to reduce the Effect Spam on both sides and reduce Boons and Conditions from like 12-14 down to only 8 on both sides!!! Then from that point on rebalance the Skills, Ergo, Boon Removal/Steal, Condi Removal, Corrupts ect. based on this new situation that the complete effect spam of this game has been brought back to a SANE LEVEL

2) The Health System would get finally rebalanced with Vitality increasing stronger the Max Health, than the outdated permanent 2012er system that still is in use with it that isn#t at all balanced around the power creep as of now that we have since HoT and the terrible Condition Patch you launched short before launching HoT in 2015.

3) The overall Attribute System would get reworked with by lettign ttributes have at least 2 Effects, cause this would help you alot to rebalance the Combat System and its attributes to become more equally important and impactful for players in regard of offensive and defensive Attributes, cause since release day this game has a way too strong focus on just offensive gameplay, its at the moment like a 70/30 relationship focused on offense that has synergies, that defensive stats don't have, which is the reason, why Berserker was and still is so effective in this game, due to its Attributes synergyizign with each other perfectly for optimized DPS, which you can keep up way too long in this game by now due to way too much passives, and invuls that allow you to have perfect dps when needed without having the risk to die at all ...Take an example look at Sword Art Online Fatal Bullet, despite being no real MMORPG, its Attribute System feels much more meaninful, than ours as part of Character Progression, because offensive and defensive attributes feel in this game equally rewardign and worthful/impactful for you as a player - why is that so? Because every Attribute there has like 4 Effects possitively on your character, making the increase in a stat feel for you more useful, than if an Attribute does only affect one single thing and the game is totally biased towards offense only ...

4) The Upgrade System would get more oftenly rebalanced. The game has way too many useless/too weak feeling Sigils, Gemstones and Runes.Here needs to happen something direly way more consistently than now for 6 years , instead of your permanent number changes only on Skills and Traits, it would help this game massively if you would start finally to put the focus also more oftenly on adjusting these damn Upgrades AS WELL TOO, because they belong to class and combat balance TOO, so stop ignoring them mostly always.

5) The reduced build diversity in PvP would get removed and players would get allowed to used more diversive builds just like in PvE/WvW, where we can use our PvE Equipment that enables us to use for each equipmentslot individually our stat s, instead of gettign hard pressed into pregiven Stat Builds like in PvP

But the most important point from those 5 ist the 1st one.. this needs to happen ASAP, otherwise will this unbalanced game never get forward anymore into a positive direction, and become instead only worser and worser.

What is important in regard of reducing the Effect Spam is also as part of the overhaul from Conditions, Boon and Hard CC Spam, that you need to add into this game finalyl some kind of Resistance System. Resitance should have never become a Boon at all, it should have become as part of giving Attributes more than 1 Effect an Attribute Effect as a new Attribute, which should increase the Immunity Time a Player should receive from a removed Condition, so that you can#t suffer from removed conditions instantly again - THIS would massively help agaisnt al this Condition Spam the game suffers on for so long and would have been a true solutiion, instead of this unthought out band aid fix that your resistance boon was just only for the game, which solves nothign and is as a 100>0 boon effect too overpowered as well, forcing you at the same time to add massively more boon removal/corrups and steals to add so that players get counters agaisnt Resistance to get their conditions through to you.. its a downways devils spiral that you added there to your own game, which needs to get fixed!!

[Deniara Devious.3948]

NO. First Arenanet should analyze the distribution of professions and builds in WvWvW. I am sure you have access to statistics and then make conclusions.

Currently here in EU tier 1 scourges and firebrands usually make at least half of the WvWvW zerg population. Hammer revenant, weaver and spellbreaker also belong to zerg meta. Mirage, Darevil/Deadeye and Druid/beastmaster make most of the roamers, but their numbers are smaller than the zerg population. But your experience might vary from mine.

I feel it is more important to tone down the most overused and overpowered builds in both WvWvW and spvp (although I care less for latter). In most cases the problem the correct cure is not to nerf the core to the ground, because that will limit the number of viable builds, but tone down the elite specs. For example Arenanet has been in wrong tracks nerfing the core engineer repeatedly for 3+ years in a row, even though engineer is probably the least played profession in WvWvW. Some skills like grenade kit, most gadgets, turrets (besides healing turret), most elixirs have been made irrelevant, meaning less and less build versatility.

Mesmer clearly does way too much damage considering it has at same time access to good mobility and escapes. Firebrand can pump out crazy amount of support (boons) and does decent damage at same time. Scourge is probably the biggest offender in zergs. 5 conditions in less than a second with very large AoEs. Tzees....

[Odinens.5920]

@intox.6347 said:

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:Adopting the cloud formation will reduce the effectiveness of AOEs.

This is more a need to change tactics rather than nerf AOE.

Don't bunch up behind a commander.Spread out.Adopt the cloud formation.

Exactly this.I see people living 2014 WvW ... melleetrain stacked in one point.... lol thats exactly what makes scourge effective... bunch of stacked booned targets on one spot :D Once they start moving... and start clouding... scourge is not that effective. At better groups (WvW guilds) ... you see cloud formation... and its pretty effective. But this ppl run through 20 red circles with their zerk mirage and then "scourge aoe op .... "

And passives in wvw.... in roaming they can be nerfed.... but in group they are better be here... so u cant choose one. So better left them like now.

Til you realize 60% of that zerg you're spreading out to avoid is scourges that have double shades (1 ranged and 1 on them at the same time) and it doesn't matter that you're spreading out. You're getting mowed over regardless....

[Shirlias.8104]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

What about instead of reducing defenses just lowering their cd ( and duration ) in order to give players the duty to use them in a proper way?

Given the warrior for an instance, what about removing the passive endure pain and instead giving them a 2x charge on endure pain?

[LetoII.3782]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

[samo.1054]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

You said it yourself Ben. There is too much RANGED aoe in this game. Aoe would be fine in short range, but the amount of aoe that can be thrown around at 1200 and 900 range nowadays is quite ridiculous.

Funny enough, most of high range aoe skills that are prevelent in wvw are actually only used in wvw and they cause lots of problems there, because it's so easy to stack a ranged aoe. When 50 people stack ranged aoe on the same place even the weakest ranged aoe becomes very very potent and there is your problem.

On topic - I agree passives nerf should not be used in wvw while wvw is in current state of deadliness...

[Reverence.6915]

@runeblade.7514 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

So nerf the AOE's like everyone with a skilled mindset has been asking for. All AOE's should be balanced such as the engineer mortar kit is a balanced AOE or how warrior has balanced AOE (hint: warrior has none other than bubble) IMO AOE shouldn't even exist as a thing outside of being centered around the character itself like how warrior greatsword burst is. Necromancer (scourge) is the biggest offender here. Reaper is actually the balanced spec. I've always thought marks were imbalanced too TBH. They should flash before actually triggering like the scourges garbage does currently, since a staff rework isn't practical. As for scourge, it should be overhauled entirely.

Nerf AOE spam. AOE's are fine if they aren't spam - Eg. Meteor Shower. But the spam has to go.

Then reconsider nerfing the passive garbage again.

As long as it doesn't reach PvE.

Yes please think of the hundred people attacking a single target, what would become of them? They might actually have to

GASP

pay attention!

Or the solo player doing heart events, or the Fractal players doing fractals, or the raiders doing raiding.

Yea God forbid they have to play better! That's just madness.

Yes, they should totally pull one mob at a time so they don't wipe and not play in zones with mob spam everywhere because all classes got nerfed that are meant for WvW.

I totally sympathize with your struggles against the menace known as scripted AI. Maybe you should discuss it in another section with other people who share your concerns.

If ANet nerf AoE spam and passives while also bringing those changes to PvE, then ANet would have to rebalance the entire PvE mode from top to bottom. Before ANet gave underwater weapons the ability to attack up to 3 enemies from autoattack, Underwater combat was boring and annoying and annoyingly difficult for the wrong reasons. There is just way too much mob spam in PvE. ANet would have to go through each open world zones to remove mobs and then nerf Dynamic events. Fractal/raid team would have to go back and look at each instances and rebalance it.

No matter how much you sarcastically dismiss PvE, nerfing AoE spam is not realistic because of PvE. ;) If ANet has to do that much work just to see it is a little bit more fun for WvW, its not worth it. Instead, create a time machine so you can go back in time to suggest nerfing AoE spam right when Guild Wars 2 was starting to be a concept.

LOL is this a joke? People already do all the content you just mentioned without any gear in "challenge modes" or for a laugh. If you have a bit of trouble just cause some AoE got toned down, "git gud pls"

[Prysin.8542]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think you may have the ability to fix that too.

[reddie.5861]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

to many aoe or just simply to much scourges? because its simply still OP as fuck?u dont need to nerf things directly on dmg. u could change skills also.

like remove condi from scourge?or remove fact that they can cleanse debuffs or corrupt boons or w/e?

see u can leave shit as it by changing skills a little pushing the class into another direction without having to do much.