Bring PvP passive nerfs to WvW

[KrHome.1920]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.In every zerg fight the front line core warriors and spellbreakers are the last ones still standing. Even the minstrel firebrands die faster.

Endure pain 2s on 30s cooldown and defy pain 2s on 90s cooldown globally! Then warriors may consider some other gear than full berserker and we won't see 8k non crit eviscerates or 4k sigil of hydromancy procs from a target that is invulnerable (resistance + EP/DP) to every type of damage and cc for 5 to 10 seconds and then has still plenty of ressources to disengage.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

Sooo...You are targeting the lowest common denominator for only some classes? This makes them brainless to play, I run zerk with no passives and hunt people in zergs, sure I die, but that is part of the risk and getting good at game play. Let people learn to use skills and not face roll just because something is off CD, let them learn to time dodging, let them learn positioning and player movements so they don't get trapped in a zerg bomb. Make people LEARN the game mode and not cater to people who just want to come in to k-train.

You give some classes these passives, but not others as well, which means when someone who is even slightly skillful takes one of theses into small scale they are very hard to counter because of some passive trigger, no matter how well to time or set it up. You end up needing more than one player to burn though those passives. I will admit to playing these classes and builds and laughing quite hard at some people trying to kill me, but over all the lack of risk etc gets boring.

[Arcaedus.7290]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

I'd ask that you consider the other kinds of fights that happen in wvw. I'll make a case for why the passive nerfs in pvp SHOULD be brought to wvw. Here are the main points:

• The nerfs wouldn't actually hurt larger-scale fights as much: People don't rely on passives for sustain in larger scale fights. They rely on good positioning. Besides, the passive nerfs wouldn't mean complete elimination of the passive, just a nerf to the cd. Being that more time is spent running around/siege/killing pcs than actually fighting, a higher cd on the passives is even more appropriate here than in pvp.
• Passives allow too much dominance in small-scale fights: These fights are very representative of pvp balance. Any nerfs made in pvp (that are also made in wvw) fully affect these kinds of fights.
• In roaming scenarios, the passives are much more oppressive since mobility is incredibly important. This allows something like a warrior to kite when passives are on cooldown, prolonging the fight and proc-ing the passives multiple times before the fight is over.
• Anet HAS been shown before to specifically make nerfs to roamers: Examples being some of the nerfs to D/P daredevil, acro staff daredevil. These were primarily roaming builds not used in large-scale fights.

If you can make nerfs to roamers here, then the roamers running full offensive gear and relying on instant-casts, passives, and get out of jail free cards for sustain deserve nerfs as well.

[Kaiser.9873]

@reddie.5861 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

to many aoe or just simply to much scourges? because its simply still OP as kitten?u dont need to nerf things directly on dmg. u could change skills also.

like remove condi from scourge?or remove fact that they can cleanse debuffs or corrupt boons or w/e?

see u can leave kitten as it by changing skills a little pushing the class into another direction without having to do much.

I can't seem to remember the last time a Scourge hit me with a 7K lava font, or a 12K CoR. Hmmmm perhaps it was that 8K phase smash, or that 12K meteor shower. No, hmm.

[Justine.6351]

@Kaiser.9873 said:

@reddie.5861 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

to many aoe or just simply to much scourges? because its simply still OP as kitten?u dont need to nerf things directly on dmg. u could change skills also.

like remove condi from scourge?or remove fact that they can cleanse debuffs or corrupt boons or w/e?

see u can leave kitten as it by changing skills a little pushing the class into another direction without having to do much.

I can't seem to remember the last time a Scourge hit me with a 7K lava font, or a 12K CoR. Hmmmm perhaps it was that 8K phase smash, or that 12K meteor shower. No, hmm.

Get some armor rating and damage reduction.I play glass hammer rev and that's the kind of numbers I take.

[KrHome.1920]

@Justine.6351 said:

@Kaiser.9873 said:

@reddie.5861 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

to many aoe or just simply to much scourges? because its simply still OP as kitten?u dont need to nerf things directly on dmg. u could change skills also.

like remove condi from scourge?or remove fact that they can cleanse debuffs or corrupt boons or w/e?

see u can leave kitten as it by changing skills a little pushing the class into another direction without having to do much.

I can't seem to remember the last time a Scourge hit me with a 7K lava font, or a 12K CoR. Hmmmm perhaps it was that 8K phase smash, or that 12K meteor shower. No, hmm.

Get some armor rating and damage reduction.I play glass hammer rev and that's the kind of numbers I take.You run a scourge that deals 12k CoRs and 12k meteor showers? That's awesome!

[Turk.5460]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

Less AoE's being flung around would be nice. :expressionless:

[Kaiser.9873]

@Justine.6351 said:

@Kaiser.9873 said:

@reddie.5861 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

to many aoe or just simply to much scourges? because its simply still OP as kitten?u dont need to nerf things directly on dmg. u could change skills also.

like remove condi from scourge?or remove fact that they can cleanse debuffs or corrupt boons or w/e?

see u can leave kitten as it by changing skills a little pushing the class into another direction without having to do much.

I can't seem to remember the last time a Scourge hit me with a 7K lava font, or a 12K CoR. Hmmmm perhaps it was that 8K phase smash, or that 12K meteor shower. No, hmm.

Get some armor rating and damage reduction.I play glass hammer rev and that's the kind of numbers I take.

Wonder if that's why I get hit so hard. Never thought playing zerker/marauder Hammer rev might hurt so bad.

[Euryon.9248]

Summary of thread: I want to one-shot warriors from stealth but I can't because of their passive Endure Pain, please remove, kthxbai.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@Euryon.9248 said:Summary of thread: I want to one-shot warriors from stealth but I can't because of their passive Endure Pain, please remove, kthxbai.

Most are not actually one shots and require setup. DE has sound and visual tells, never been hit by one outside of being in an out numbered fight and being hit in the back. I have no passives and deal with these classes, it's really not hard.

Side note, I myself have not spent any significant time on a stealthing class in years.

Others I play with (many of who main warrior or SB) all agree it's in a very strong place, all of them also hate auto procs and agree with their removal. Add it to another skill or something, allow them to have two still if you like, just keep instant cast auto procing skills out of the game, this goes for DH traps, Stoneform etc etc.

[Tiny Doom.4380]

It's always been my understanding that GW2 was intended as an inclusive MMO for casual players. Passive skills seem to be entirely in keeping with that ethos. High skill requirements do not.

[mcarswell.3768]

aoe spam is the single biggest problem with gw2 imo. fix that, and the game might become skill oriented again (or finally)...

[hunkamania.7561]

just get rid of passives they are super lazy. Change all those traits. all those auto stunbreaks make me sick.

[LetoII.3782]

I'll advocate for ALL passives like some of them mobile "games" I see, where you just watch and give your toon money when it needs stuff. I mean, learning is hard and practice takes too long. Let's lower the bar a bit further and have true equality!

[Blocki.4931]

@Prysin.8542 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun.

There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think you may have the ability to fix that too.

Like how? Make it so the game is entirely single-target spells in pvp/wvw? Wouldn't fix anything but make the game feel extremely weird, with big spells hitting one target then doing exactly nothing despite still hitting somebody else as an AoE. The only issue comes from concentrating spells on one spot and that would not even be fixed with that. Death zones would still exist, they'd just be a lot spikier and perhaps just instantly kill a few people instead of spreading out.

Not gonna disagree that some spells could perhaps cleave only on 3 targets instead of the standard 5 though. Exceptions to the rule can always exist, like Elementalist Fire Staff 5 etc without throwing over the balance

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 If the reason you do not want to touch Passive Defenses in WvW is do to the over abundance and strength of AoEs and Ranged AoEs maybe you should look at nerfing/reducing the AoEs and Ranged AoEs.

[Ghost.5637]

Just change invulnerabilities to % damage reduction(endure pain/signet of stone) or % evade chance (engi elixir S/ thief instant reflexes). I'd say keep guardian elite skill as is since it's unique and you cannot attack while invuln.

As for AoEs I don't really have any constructive advice other than to tone it down or make aiming them more meaningful

[Over.2137]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

tone down AoEs?

[ScionKai.4907]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

For Warrior, you could improve those traits by making them more active... Last Stand's Vigor on stances is good, maybe more duration or some other proc from the active skill. You could shorten CD's or something with this trait as well.

For Defy Pain you could change the functionality of Endure Pain by adding some other feature to having it on your skill bar. Something with the duration or CD, or adding an additional boon to the skill when activated.

There are ways to make those two traits very useful and require them to be used actively. Simply increasing the CD in WvW would make them useless compared to some of the other Grand Master traits out there... But you could play give and take. Change the way the traits work, eliminate the autoproc, but give them something to still make Last Stand worthy of being a Grandmaster and Defy Pain giving Warriors a chance in large combat with tons of area denial.

The other option is look at the things outside of warrior which make those two traits so popular, and balance those when you nerf Warrior's traits. That is a house of cards approach though and could be a nightmare, so the first suggestion may be a better way to go.

I'll take some nerfs to Warrior but please for the love of everything figure out how to fix Scourge and Mirage as well... It really feels like the people who designed these classes had no understanding of just what they were creating for PvP and WvW when they put them together, like at all.

[Colly.4073]

What has pvp got to do with wvw?

/thread

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

@Colly.4073 said:What has pvp got to do with wvw?

/thread

Found the guy that needs passives

[anduriell.6280]

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

IMHO there is nothing wrong with a lot of AoEs as long as those are visually easy to spot, to have a delay to apply the effect (no instant damage/effect, if it needs to pulse to apply the effect that would give the target a chance to evade) and those are no pulsing mobile PbAoE damaging skills.

Big AoEs should have a channel to cast (like meteor shower) or apply the full effect.

Ranged AoEs should have the downside of being "slow" as a downside to affect multiple targets from a safe distance, otherwise they are just an upgrade over single target skills.

[Prysin.8542]

@Blocki.4931 said:

@Prysin.8542 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun.

There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think you may have the ability to fix that too.

Like how? Make it so the game is entirely single-target spells in pvp/wvw? Wouldn't fix anything but make the game feel extremely weird, with big spells hitting one target then doing exactly nothing despite still hitting somebody else as an AoE. The only issue comes from concentrating spells on one spot and that would not even be fixed with that. Death zones would still exist, they'd just be a lot spikier and perhaps just instantly kill a few people instead of spreading out.

Not gonna disagree that some spells could perhaps cleave only on 3 targets instead of the standard 5 though. Exceptions to the rule can always exist, like Elementalist Fire Staff 5 etc without throwing over the balance

So many ways to do reduce AOE spam.Increase cooldownIncrease cast timereduce sizereduce targets hitreduce damage

For siege you could simply reduce hit cap from 50 to 30,and BOOM, you have made AOE siege spam less lethal

[apharma.3741]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.

I echo what many other players are saying, maybe the problem is that AoE damage is getting too common and that should be a target for toning down.

I have no problem with a powerful effect so long as it is balanced by having a long cast or cool down or some other significant down side, the problem is cool downs have been getting shorter and shorter across the board, it’s time they went up, that includes defensive cool downs too as well as some of the excessive support on firebrands and their tomes.

Also any chance on addressing ranged damage doing so much damage? A ranger can hit you for 4500 damage at over 1500 range, don’t you think this is a bit high for an auto attack at a range many would find it hard to escape? Likewise hammer bolt and puncture shot (to a lesser extent) also do far too much damage for an auto attack at range.

Edit: not entirely on topic but I would much prefer WvW and PvP balance to be the same, it makes your job easier as you only have 1 skill split and it makes it easier for your players as they get more consistency in the behaviour of skills and traits. Generally if something is too strong in PvP it’s usually too strong in WvW too and vice versa or a change for one mode is usually not going to adversely affect its performance in the other mode.

[Vaga.5174]

Passives in WvW's current state are almost a necessary evil (for some classes) to survive long enough to do anything.

Damage reduction/application need to be addressed first. Once this has been addressed Passives should be addressed. The reason passive nerfs worked so well in PvP is because it is small scale fighting.

WvW is potentially >xx more damage applicators, which makes surviving that much more difficult.

It really depends on what type of WvW'er you are. If you are a player that wants small scale fights, you are more likely to want to remove passives. If you are a roamer, you are going to want to keep them as you will just get rolled over by people in WvW's current form. If you are in Zergs, well, you would probably agree that damage and damage applicators need to be addressed before changing the passives.