necro condi too oppressive, mesmer and elle just fine

[ZDragon.3046]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:The point I was making is that even the application of a massive number of stacks of a single DoT condition is typically much less deadly in a PvP environment than a few stacks of all the types with other control conditions.

This is the sole reason why burn guard and Sword warrior are not played. Both can easily stack massive DoT very quickly, but the damage is generally awful due to the nature of cleanses.

Also, 3 poison/torment/bleed/burn can kill a number of builds. What matters there is duration. On 10s durations without runes on a TB build, this pushes well over 20k damage.

How ever no build or very rare that a build runs no clense or even resistance to deal with things like that. Its usually unlikely that any condi that last 10 seconds or more remains on a target with any kind of cleanse. Thus its often better to burst with high stacks of a single condition or 2 vs applying 3-4 low stacking condis. Some times 1 or 2 ticks of a high stacked burn or torment can tilt the odds in your favor enough to gg your foe.

But i do get what you mean Necro has more no damaging condition pressure than actual dps condition pressure. Which can make builds with low cleanse a bit RNG to if they will actually clear the condi's they need to clear rather than just the soft cc condi's. Generally though builds with low cleanse have high mobility, good evades, or resistance which in many times can be far better than a cleanse all condi clear. Avoiding damage is always going to be better than soaking some of it only to negate it some time later with a cleanse.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Cleansing isn't RNG; it's a LIFO queue based on application of conditions; applying some DoTs then corrupting will make the DoT's cleanse last.

So even if bulk cleanses are burned, to remove the soft CC and DoT conditions, this is typically needing a 5-condi removal which is usually two removals combined which is what most players will run. That's only one wave of an initial rotation on a 25-40s cooldown rotation for the cleanses.

Whereas a burn bomb guardian may immediately stack 15 burn and a blind and maybe some other condition, a 3-condi cleanse will negate the entire rotation and a second cleanse will negate the intermediary sustained conditions between rotations for the guardian.

Burst application of conditions is only viable if your opponent doesn't have cleanses. It otherwise just strengthens your opponent's cleanses by negating more of the damage. That's why necro is so good at condition application: It can repeatedly and easily mandate the opponent cleanses conditions because they'll be controlled too much to fight back to make effective trades, all the while repeatedly adding more damage.

This is why scourge is oppressive to a lot of builds/classes, especially power builds; many just simply don't have the ability to cleanse such a diverse breadth of conditions so frequently, and disabling effects like weakness - which apply roughly a 40% reduction in damage before even considering the reduction from the lost might - make trades really difficult, especially if needing to depend on being in melee to deal the damage to make necessary trades/apply pressure.

[ZDragon.3046]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:Cleansing isn't RNG; it's a LIFO queue based on application of conditions; applying some DoTs then corrupting will make the DoT's cleanse last.

During a fight conditions can be applied so rapidly you cant accurately know that you are going to remove 2 set conditions out of the possible what 6-8 that had been applied.Its almost the same as boon corrupting using boons to cover other boons. Boons generated so much you can 100% promise that you are going to get the ones you want in a realistic situation.Its still basic RNG in a sense. While you can likely get the ones you want removed its not a promise that you will.

So even if bulk cleanses are burned, to remove the soft CC and DoT conditions, this is typically needing a 5-condi removal which is usually two removals combined which is what most players will run. That's only one wave of an initial rotation on a 25-40s cooldown rotation for the cleanses.

I wouldnt say most not every profession has the option of removing more than 3 condi's at once. While a good chunk of them do there are a few that dont have that option.

Whereas a burn bomb guardian may immediately stack 15 burn and a blind and maybe some other condition, a 3-condi cleanse will negate the entire rotation and a second cleanse will negate the intermediary sustained conditions between rotations for the guardian.

This is only under the assumption of perfect timing and execution of the clense which is not likely.

Burst application of conditions is only viable if your opponent doesn't have cleanses. It otherwise just strengthens your opponent's cleanses by negating more of the damage.

Debatable not everyone has godly reaction time and you only need 1 or 2 seconds to win a fight when you are under 4k dps ticks from conditions considering the bulk of most professions have 15k hp or lower 2 seconds dropping them under 50% is more than enough.

This is why scourge is oppressive to a lot of builds/classes, especially power builds; many just simply don't have the ability to cleanse such a diverse breadth of conditions so frequently, and disabling effects like weakness - which apply roughly a 40% reduction in damage before even considering the reduction from the lost might - make trades really difficult, especially if needing to depend on being in melee to deal the damage to make necessary trades/apply pressure.

That said scourge does have its own set of weaknesses and its near perfectly fine at this point. Range bomb it and its gg.

[DeceiverX.8361]

If recognizing a burn guard and instantly cleansing 15 burning stacks before or on the first tick is "godly reaction time" there's no hope for real PvP success to be honest. That window is honestly longer than the scourge indicators which can be even more impactful based on the nature of corruption.

Every class in the game should run a minimum of a single 3-condi cleanse and at least another 1-2 condi cleanse or sustained cleansing. It's otherwise a garbage build that will not work into anyone playing conditions with half a brain, frankly.

"Just range it" is the same argument that was given by those playing DH before it got nerfed in damage, traps, and tether times. That's not sufficient because a number of classes have poor ranged options or certain weapon dependencies to function on much more basic levels, and you should really know that.

[ZDragon.3046]

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:

"Just range it" is the same argument that was given by those playing DH before it got nerfed in damage, traps, and tether times. That's not sufficient because a number of classes have poor ranged options or certain weapon dependencies to function on much more basic levels, and you should really know that.

Saying that for dragon hunter was not a good argument as they had a great option for range pressuring you back as well as other options to gap close if they wanted that were already apart of their dependency to function. (sword) That and having a built in tether pull in their kit made it even less of a good argument to make.

In scourges case it takes a while for scepter to really start tearing you up unlike true shot which was an instant burst of damage along with strong auto attacks. Scourge also lacks the mobility and sustain that dragon hunter had.They can actually legit "Just be ranged" buy a good number of professions more so than dragon hunter can but your statements are still well said.Even the In and out play style works on them if performed well at the right times. That said its still not easy once they get the condi pressure going.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

Trying to compare Ele condi to Necro condi is hilarious and SO bias. How many Conditions does Ele have? Lets compare. Excluding Sigils, Runesets and such. Ele has Bleeding and Burning. 2 damaging conditions. Very limited access. Unless you are Weaver you can only apply one at a time and even as Weaver having to blow utilities. Necro technically has access to every condition through its own skills and its corruptions and they do corrupt VERY easily.

Comparing to Mesmer? Thats fine,t hey have loads of Conditions as well but compaing to a class with the lowest tier health and armour AND having TWO damaging conditions? Hardly fair lol

I mean sure. You CAN get 20 stacks of Burning, If they blow all their cool downs using specific skills, building for as much Burning duration as possible but its also MUCH easier to cleanse as it would take using 3 Utilities and attacking and hitting. The problem would be - doing terrible direct damage, having no defense and HAVING to be in Fire attunement so no condi defense, no mobility or anything either. Will work on someone AFK, wont work on ANYONE that has condi removal.

[needbeer.1687]

every one of you are forgetting just how easy it is for even a halfway competant necro to kill a rev. lb rangers? easy to get. you know they will always either knock you back first or rapid fire first. and thats the key to getting them right there.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@needbeer.1687 said:every one of you are forgetting just how easy it is for even a halfway competant necro to kill a rev. lb rangers? easy to get. you know they will always either knock you back first or rapid fire first. and thats the key to getting them right there.

No ranger/Soulbeast/Druid should lose to an equally skilled Scourge. If a Scourge beats a Ranger, then it was likely the Ranger was new or bad. They are an EASY kill for me when im on my Soulbeast. Got great burst damage, sustain, ranged damage, CC, Stealth, Condi removal, Mobility. Everything that counters a scourge.

[babazhook.6805]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:The point I was making is that even the application of a massive number of stacks of a single DoT condition is typically much less deadly in a PvP environment than a few stacks of all the types with other control conditions.

This is the sole reason why burn guard and Sword warrior are not played. Both can easily stack massive DoT very quickly, but the damage is generally awful due to the nature of cleanses.

Also, 3 poison/torment/bleed/burn can kill a number of builds. What matters there is duration. On 10s durations without runes on a TB build, this pushes well over 20k damage.

Too add.

Duration is not as important as to WHAT the duration being added to. As example , if you have a base duration BLEED of 10 seconds , added durations to the bleed are not that significant even if it 100 percent. If you have a base duration of 2 seconds on BURN adding 100 percent is significant. If you in a Guardian Condition focused build your BURN can do a lot of damage but adding durations is much less cost effective then on something like a thief who might not have BURN but can use that duration add to fatten up weakness and immob durations which they have more access to. My own rule of thumb is that once one gets over 8 seconds duration on a damaging condition , investing further in durations is not cost effective (unless you have ample CC type conditions or things like weakness) and you are better off going for higher overall condition damage or a wider variety of conditions.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@MagicBoi.4160 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:The issue comes from breadth vs depth of conditions.

3 Torment + 3 Bleed + 3 Burn + 3 Poison + Weakness + 10 vuln + Chill + Blind is way worse to deal with than 20 Burning and a blind.

The latter can be fixed with a single cleanse or two spammable 1-condi cleanses. The former cannot, and is damning if soft CC is left up.

But you wont die from 3 burn, 3 bleed, 3 torment , 3 poison.

20 burn will do way more dmg in one tick than the 4 condis together

How are you getting 20 burns from an Ele to begin with? I've experimented on a lot of condi builds on Ele and there is no build out there that allows them to stack 20 burns

reliably

, especially if it's not a pure condi Ele/Weaver. You have to be super bad to get those.

I dont know. Ask deceiver.Well tbh. I got a condi guard in my last pvp match. He put 17 stacks burning in almost an instant on me

Its generally not hard to get to 12-15 ish on weaver if you know what you are doing and maybe even 17 if you are lucky but to say 20+ is a stretch. on your own.

I mean to get 20+ you would have to just stand there and eat whatever the ele is throwing at you which is probably what happened and now we have this thread lol

[Nimon.7840]

meh...... deadeye getting a rework, but necromancer might still be left behind.

well there is hope until tuesday

but i guess we wont even get a Crumb of a cookie

[MithranArkanere.8957]

Necromancer needs to have all those turned up powers split between 3 grandmaster traits. It's ok they can have all that condition damage, support and utility, but not ok they can bring as much as they can bring all at the same time. The base should be reduced, then each trait would bring it back a bit stronger to compensate they can't bring it all, but not all at the same time.

Mesmer needs a cap on phantasms like the one they have on clones. Not as much to reduce power than to reduce visual clutter. Phantasms can be then adjusted accordingly if they become too weak with a cap, but the spamming has to go.Mirage in particular is able to use skills that can't be used while evading during a mirage cloak. That has to go too. If a skill can't be used while evading, mirage cloak should prevent using it too. There's plenty of ambush skills and instant cast skills that can be used while evading so they won't run out of things to do during a mirage cloak. But mirage cloak should not be usable to prevent interruption of a skill that would cancel one's own actions or get queued until the end of the evade to start, that's distortion's job.

Elementalist is mostly fine except for the few builds that are too strong 1v1, able to tank for too long without having to fall back, while still dealing considerable damage. A damage-dealing elementalist should have to take cover behind allies more often to do damage, or not do that much damage if they can stand on their own for too long against a build specifically tailored against theirs, with lots of boon stripping and poison.

Other than that, everything with them is mostly fine.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Elementalist is mostly fine except for the few builds that are too strong 1v1, able to tank for too long without having to fall back, while still dealing considerable damage. A damage-dealing elementalist should have to take cover behind allies more often to do damage, or not do that much damage if they can stand on their own for too long against a build specifically tailored against theirs, with lots of boon stripping and poison.

Other than that, everything with them is mostly fine.

Its what happens when you give a class the lowest tier health AND Armour. If Ele build for offense, they die when looked at. The builds ele NEEDS to run is direct result of the sheer condition spam the game has become and the mindless power creep. A Zerk ele is a dead ele. What other class is as vulnerable when going Zerk as an ele? Ele has HAD to become a sustain class to survive. If you dont take all that toughness, Vit and condi removal you are a dead ele. Until the Condition spamming and Power creep is taken under proper control, Ele wont have many viable options that dont see them die in a few seconds. If their burst doesnt land/kill the target then they HAVE to run or they die. Boon removal and Corruptions STILL hurt many ele builds. Its all about knowing when and how to attack the ele. Very weak to range burst and CC

Ele counter Necro for the most part due to the fact that Necro are VERY heavily reliant on conditions, while Ele is EVERY heavily reliant on condition removal. Though it still takes more work for the Ele to control the conditions they are spammed with than it is for the necro spamming the conditions. The Ele still has to balance being in melee range doing damage and not being in melee range and not dealing damage (assuming Dagger or Sword) Scepter is another story but man, i hate that weapon. So boring. Its not as if Dagger or Sword ele have it a walk in the park when facing Scourge/Reaper or pretty much anyone else that is Condi heavy with insane AoE condition application, boon corruption and such.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

That happens when you do not have body block and enemies can move behind enemy lines too easily. Elementalists can't rely on taking cover behind allies with all the piercing projectiles and teleports making it too easy to reach them. Professions just can't afford to be squishy under those conditions. Rush back with a skill like burning reteat, you get away from allied effects and they can still reach you anyways. Launch them away, they just run back in little time. You can always move behind a ward like static field, but not all weapon sets have those, and not all teleports are hit by the ward when they go through it.

Maybe they should try changing one of the auras or least used skills to act as a teleport-repellent that makes enemies teleporting in bounce back to where they were to see if that could be a tool to balance closing-in being too easy.

[Nimon.7840]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Elementalist is mostly fine except for the few builds that are too strong 1v1, able to tank for too long without having to fall back, while still dealing considerable damage. A damage-dealing elementalist should have to take cover behind allies more often to do damage, or not do that much damage if they can stand on their own for too long against a build specifically tailored against theirs, with lots of boon stripping and poison.

Other than that, everything with them is mostly fine.

Its what happens when you give a class the lowest tier health AND Armour. If Ele build for offense, they die when looked at. The builds ele NEEDS to run is direct result of the sheer condition spam the game has become and the mindless power creep. A Zerk ele is a dead ele. What other class is as vulnerable when going Zerk as an ele? Ele has HAD to become a sustain class to survive. If you dont take all that toughness, Vit and condi removal you are a dead ele. Until the Condition spamming and Power creep is taken under proper control, Ele wont have many viable options that dont see them die in a few seconds. If their burst doesnt land/kill the target then they HAVE to run or they die. Boon removal and Corruptions STILL hurt many ele builds. Its all about knowing when and how to attack the ele. Very weak to range burst and CC

Ele counter Necro for the most part due to the fact that Necro are VERY heavily reliant on conditions, while Ele is EVERY heavily reliant on condition removal. Though it still takes more work for the Ele to control the conditions they are spammed with than it is for the necro spamming the conditions. The Ele still has to balance being in melee range doing damage and not being in melee range and not dealing damage (assuming Dagger or Sword) Scepter is another story but man, i hate that weapon. So boring. Its not as if Dagger or Sword ele have it a walk in the park when facing Scourge/Reaper or pretty much anyone else that is Condi heavy with insane AoE condition application, boon corruption and such.

But necro isn't allowed to survive or do dmg?Yesterday a thief ganked me in wvw while I was on my necro. Well. As always. There is no chance beating a good thief as a necromancer.I was watching a gvg while he killed me. I tried again. Lost again.I logged in my ele, although I almost never play ele, because I don't like the gameplay.So I equipped a sword/dagger went full cele and beat the kitten out of that thief. He couldn't kill me. Almost permanent protection and regeneration is easy to maintain.What necro obviously can't.

And I didn't even know exactly, what my skills are doing as s/d ele. I just watched someone play it for 15 minutes.

And it's even easy to survive and still do good dmg while being outnumbered. So don't tell me ele is bad when a complete ele pvp-scrub is able to survive and kill.While the necro main on necro cannot.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@"Nimon.7840" said:But necro isn't allowed to survive or do dmg?Yesterday a thief ganked me in wvw while I was on my necro. Well. As always. There is no chance beating a good thief as a necromancer.I was watching a gvg while he killed me. I tried again. Lost again.I logged in my ele, although I almost never play ele, because I don't like the gameplay.So I equipped a sword/dagger went full cele and beat the kitten out of that thief. He couldn't kill me. Almost permanent protection and regeneration is easy to maintain.What necro obviously can't.

And I didn't even know exactly, what my skills are doing as s/d ele. I just watched someone play it for 15 minutes.

And it's even easy to survive and still do good dmg while being outnumbered. So don't tell me ele is bad when a complete ele pvp-scrub is able to survive and kill.While the necro main on necro cannot.

Well. They can survive and they can deal lots of damage. The problem is. They dont have the mobility to be able to escape and 90% of their damage is based around mindless condition and AoE spamming. Any half decent thief can beat pretty much any class because of how poorly designed and balanced they are. Its not a necro only thing.

Well. You would be exaggerating to try and make your point to be right. Its not. Weaver (which you must be to use Sword) doesn't have Perma Protection. I would say The Thief (if this situation actually happened) knows how to counter Necro. Which most classes do - Bring mobility + Condition removal and you have the Scourge beaten (which most necros, and yourself i am guessing are...) Ele is a easy class to beat, if you know the class and specs well. This is because most Necros and Scourges are the same. you know what they will do, you know what they will likely be running. You know they are going to be Condi. Ele though, If your build isnt balanced right then you wont have a good time. you can still beat them but if your build is bad against ele, you will lose.

For example. If you were Scepter/Dagger you would have a MUCH harder time against the Thief than against a Necro. Saying that Ele is overpowered or anything because your Necro build is countered by a Thierf but he couldnt counter a Ele build doesnt mean that Necro is weak and ele is overpowered. It more than likely means that he is very used to fighting necros and scourges as they are EVERYWHERE in WvW so you get plenty of practice. Ele on the other hand, you can tell a good ele Vs a bad ele VERY quickly.

I am 100% saying that. It is SO silly to assume that because of ONE person in your "story" couldnt beat your ele doesnt mean that ele is strong. There is a reason why they are barely seen in WvW when roaming. Because for most, they are an easy kill. If they are zerk. They die when looked at. If a so called PvP scrub can win with an Ele, that surely means the Thief was dreadfully bad. Thief have all the skills and mechanics to win. If they are even semi decent. It just means that you encountered a Thief that is built to counter a Necro (they are EVERYWHERE) and not built to counter a class that is barely seen when roaming...