cap on number of phantasms is not the solution

[musu.9205]

i saw this idea on forum more and more recently, id like to point out why this idea is bad and a step back .

1. it's complicated to do , we need to add ui for that , rebalance phantasms damage again (anet certainly has to increase the damage of each phantasm and we don't need any more burst damage on mesmer . ) , rework few slow phantasms (iwarden ) , rebalance whole phantasm -> clone thing again (does replaced phantasm turn into clone ?). all for what , a single problem.
2. it will once again punish mesmer for using their skills in a bad way .how it will be fun when we have to watch iwarden to finish its attack before we can cast forth phantasm .
3. it will once again conflict with our class mechanics and many skills . it will pretty much make signet heal useless if its not bad already in pvp . and turn chrono f5 to double elite only again .
4. anet clearly design new phantasm with slower attack for better counterplay /reaction . do you guys really want to revert that and go for a more burst design ? coz that's what anet has to do if they put a cap on number of phantasm .

now solution , note anet only needs to do 1-2 of them , not all

1. reduce resummoned phantasms damage in pvp , plain and simple solution .they have to put this function in pve version too but can be easily compensated with damage increase on other mesmer skills .2 .im amazed no one mentioned this , increase daze duration on resummoned phantasm in pvp , 3s is more than enough .3.heavily reduce resummoned phantasm hp in pvp .4.reduce signet heal cd to 15-20s , but make it work like mimic with 2 charges .everytime u use that heal , you gain 2 charges which will recharge the next phantasm skill you use . this will hurt pve build burst potential but make more interesting gameplay , it also helps its heal capability and it's much easier to balance than one button that resets all .

[Refia Montes.3205]

I'm even boggled thinking that Chronophantasma is even thought to be problematic to begin with. It's not and everyone is still playing Power/Condi Mirage.

[musu.9205]

@Refia Montes.3205 said:I'm even boggled thinking that Chronophantasma is even thought to be problematic to begin with. It's not and everyone is still playing Power/Condi Mirage.

yep , but i can see there is a problem which may hold back further balance for certain skill like signet heal . right now its crap but the if its not the gimmick with cp and cs will make it too strong .

[HisRoyalDudeness.8637]

@musu.9205 said:

1. reduce resummoned phantasms damage in pvp , plain and simple solution .they have to put this function in pve version too but can be easily compensated with damage increase on other mesmer skills .4.reduce signet heal cd to 15-20s , but make it work like mimic with 2 charges .everytime u use that heal , you gain 2 charges which will recharge the next phantasm skill you use . this will hurt pve build burst potential but make more interesting gameplay , it also helps its heal capability and it's much easier to balance than one button that resets all .

!

[RabbitUp.8294]

Leave pve alone, nerf pvp phantasms directly if they prove problematic.

Can we stop having pvp messing with the rest of the game?

[Levetty.1279]

@Refia Montes.3205 said:I'm even boggled thinking that Chronophantasma is even thought to be problematic to begin with. It's not and everyone is still playing Power/Condi Mirage.

It makes more sense when you realize they just want Mesmer useless in all modes.

[Simonoly.4352]

It certainly is not the solution and I don't really think it's the phantasms in general that are causing the issue rather lots of different things in combination that much of the playerbase are yet to get their heads around. The phantasm change was BIG and influenced many many things and I don't think people have adjusted to it yet. If you peruse the PvP forum (if you dare) people are complaining about almost every part of the Mesmer's toolbox. Some of the people are describing scenarios that couldn't even exist and clearly have no idea on a conceptual level what is even happening as they fight a Mesmer.

It's also worth noting that some of the phantasms are rather...anaemic (looking at you iWarden you big weirdo) and certainly need their functionality improved if anything.

[apharma.3741]

The solution is really much more simple than anyone thinks:

Remove phantasms.Let mesmers do an attack and leave a clone.

[OriOri.8724]

@apharma.3741 said:The solution is really much more simple than anyone thinks:

Remove phantasms.Let mesmers do an attack and leave a clone.

I like phantasms a lot as a mechanic, I don't think they need to be scrapped. But I do think Anet needs to fully commit to the idea of 1 phantasm skill -> 1 phantasm = 1 phantasm attack

[apharma.3741]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@apharma.3741 said:The solution is really much more simple than anyone thinks:

Remove phantasms.Let mesmers do an attack and leave a clone.

I like phantasms a lot as a mechanic, I don't think they need to be scrapped. But I do think Anet needs to fully commit to the idea of 1 phantasm skill -> 1 phantasm = 1 phantasm attack

That could work but people will still complain if you summon 2 phantasms while having 2 or 3 clones up even if we assume signet of ether active and chronophantasma are changed. If they aren’t you can still have a lot of phantasms kicking around especially with continuum split.

[OriOri.8724]

Yea, I do want to see signet of ether changed, mostly because I have always found it a rather boring and uninspired signet.

[Refia Montes.3205]

@OriOri.8724 said:Yea, I do want to see signet of ether changed, mostly because I have always found it a rather boring and uninspired signet.Maybe for you but I like Signets that have a good duality effect.

[Lunalight.8120]

@"apharma.3741" said:The solution is really much more simple than anyone thinks:

Remove phantasms.Let mesmers do an attack and leave a clone.

"ohmygosh did anet just give mesmers even more mobility srsly remove op nerf pls."

[SunTzu.4513]

I hope ANet will balance PvE and PvP in seperate ways. I like my DPS Chrono in all kind of PvE content don't want to be forced back to play boonbot. I don't want it to get nerf hammered and crippled in case of pvp. This already happened to my necro.

[Carighan.6758]

@SunTzu.4513 said:I hope ANet will balance PvE and PvP in seperate ways. I like my DPS Chrono in all kind of PvE content don't want to be forced back to play boonbot. I don't want it to get nerf hammered and crippled in case of pvp. This already happened to my necro.

They won't. Look at how slow balance patches come out at all. They're woefully understaffed as far as class-design/-balance work goes, so we're not getting any more than what is already there. It's >5 years, and bigger reworks would have at least been foreshadowed by now.

Frankly at this point, they might as well give people a WildStar account, rework that for PvP, then scrap PvP and WvW entirely from GW2. They won't have the manpower to support 3 entirely different sets of balance.

[flog.3485]

At this point, it would just better to decrease the health of phantasm to the level of clones (for a SPvP only change imo).

Now that phantasms are a real threat because they make more damages than before and you will still gain benefit of them (due to the fact that they turn into clones no matter what), there is no point in keeping the health factor as relevant when it comes to differentiate phantasms and clones.

[musu.9205]

@flog.3485 said:At this point, it would just better to decrease the health of phantasm to the level of clones (for a SPvP only change imo).

Now that phantasms are a real threat because they make more damages than before and you will still gain benefit of them (due to the fact that they turn into clones no matter what), there is no point in keeping the health factor as relevant when it comes to differentiate phantasms and clones.

maybe not clone level but hp decrease could helptho another problem is , do we want to force mesmer more and more into 1v1 role , since after that change , mesmer will be even weaker for teamfight . there is fine line between gimmick and weakness .

[flog.3485]

@musu.9205 said:

@flog.3485 said:At this point, it would just better to decrease the health of phantasm to the level of clones (for a SPvP only change imo).

Now that phantasms are a real threat because they make more damages than before and you will still gain benefit of them (due to the fact that they turn into clones no matter what), there is no point in keeping the health factor as relevant when it comes to differentiate phantasms and clones.

maybe not clone level but hp decrease could helptho another problem is , do we want to force mesmer more and more into 1v1 role , since after that change , mesmer will be even weaker for teamfight . there is fine line between gimmick and weakness .

Yes that is exactly what mesmers are. Strong duelists on side points with some good team play potential with portals (since it is a core ability).

I mean I do think clone and phantasms should have the same health now. I don’t think it is healthy PvP wise to be able to summon phantasm without much thought because, in design, you know that they will be able to tank more damages than clones and survive long enough in teamfights to deliver their big damages.

It should become skillful to summon your strong phantasms after that your opponent is disabled in any way, shape or form. I mean how hard is it to summon a high damage phantasm after performing a gravity well ? After an f3 ? After a MoD ? After a mirage thrust ?

And even if a very low skilled player can’t do anything I mentionned above, it doesn’t stop this player from using the inspiration line with the trait protected phantasm.

[apharma.3741]

@flog.3485 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@flog.3485 said:At this point, it would just better to decrease the health of phantasm to the level of clones (for a SPvP only change imo).

Now that phantasms are a real threat because they make more damages than before and you will still gain benefit of them (due to the fact that they turn into clones no matter what), there is no point in keeping the health factor as relevant when it comes to differentiate phantasms and clones.

maybe not clone level but hp decrease could helptho another problem is , do we want to force mesmer more and more into 1v1 role , since after that change , mesmer will be even weaker for teamfight . there is fine line between gimmick and weakness .

Yes that is exactly what mesmers are. Strong duelists on side points with some good team play potential with portals (since it is a core ability).

I mean I do think clone and phantasms should have the same health now. I don’t think it is healthy PvP wise to be able to summon phantasm without much thought because, in design, you know that they will be able to tank more damages than clones and survive long enough in teamfights to deliver their big damages.

It should become skillful to summon your strong phantasms after that your opponent is disabled in any way, shape or form. I mean how hard is it to summon a high damage phantasm after performing a gravity well ? After an f3 ? After a MoD ? After a mirage thrust ?

And even if a very low skilled player can’t do anything I mentionned above, it doesn’t stop this player from using the inspiration line with the trait protected phantasm.

There’s a little issue with that though, clone health is hilariously low where I’ve seen warriors kill the clone for ileap accidentally because he used whirlwind to catch me or just ran around mashing auto on the axe. I’ve seen ranged attackers like DH massacre entire armies of clones just with the auto.

This would then mean every single phantasm attack can not only be blinded, LoS or invuln’d to prevent the summon and attack but can also be prevented from attacking by sneezing on it.

Every single class in the game doesn’t have to worry twice about if their attacks will work, you’re either in range or not, blinded or not, they’re either invuln or not. Why should mesmer have twice as many ways to counter their damage as every other class when comparatively speaking the phantasm attacks are on par (obviously not including excessive summoning via chronophantasma, CS and SotE stuff) with most other weapon skills on other classes?

Edit: also don’t forget most summon times are 1s so add very easy to interrupt onto all that.

[mortrialus.3062]

I don't know how Imagined Burden+Signet of the Ether+Chronophantasma combo made it through the gate in that form. The extra phantasm on Imagined Burden should be removed immediately. There's also no reason for the Staff Phantasm to have two phantasms. Just roll the damage and vulnerability onto one phantasm.

Even if Imagined Burden+Signet of the Ether+Chronophantasma wasn't a solid build combo (and it is) it's an absurd level of visual noise and is extremely unhealthy in PvP on that fact alone. It doesn't matter if Power, Demo, or Condi Mirage is a more powerful. Spamming an opponent with 9-10 AI targets monsterously unhealthy for the game. At least with the zoo meta of years past, minionmancer necromancers weren't also blinking and stealthing around.

[Refia Montes.3205]

@mortrialus.3062 said:I don't know how Imagined Burden+Signet of the Ether+Chronophantasma combo made it through the gate in that form. The extra phantasm on Imagined Burden should be removed immediately. There's also no reason for the Staff Phantasm to have two phantasms. Just roll the damage and vulnerability onto one phantasm.

Even if Imagined Burden+Signet of the Ether+Chronophantasma wasn't a solid build combo (and it is) it's an absurd level of visual noise and is extremely unhealthy in PvP on that fact alone. It doesn't matter if Power, Demo, or Condi Mirage is a more powerful. Spamming an opponent with 9-10 AI targets monsterously unhealthy for the game. At least with the zoo meta of years past, minionmancer necromancers weren't also blinking and stealthing around.

Izerker spam doesn't work in high mmr games though. It's a one trick pony one shot combo that's good as Rifle deadeye.

[flog.3485]

@apharma.3741 said:

@flog.3485 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@flog.3485 said:At this point, it would just better to decrease the health of phantasm to the level of clones (for a SPvP only change imo).

Now that phantasms are a real threat because they make more damages than before and you will still gain benefit of them (due to the fact that they turn into clones no matter what), there is no point in keeping the health factor as relevant when it comes to differentiate phantasms and clones.

maybe not clone level but hp decrease could helptho another problem is , do we want to force mesmer more and more into 1v1 role , since after that change , mesmer will be even weaker for teamfight . there is fine line between gimmick and weakness .

Yes that is exactly what mesmers are. Strong duelists on side points with some good team play potential with portals (since it is a core ability).

I mean I do think clone and phantasms should have the same health now. I don’t think it is healthy PvP wise to be able to summon phantasm without much thought because, in design, you know that they will be able to tank more damages than clones and survive long enough in teamfights to deliver their big damages.

It should become skillful to summon your strong phantasms after that your opponent is disabled in any way, shape or form. I mean how hard is it to summon a high damage phantasm after performing a gravity well ? After an f3 ? After a MoD ? After a mirage thrust ?

And even if a very low skilled player can’t do anything I mentionned above, it doesn’t stop this player from using the inspiration line with the trait protected phantasm.

There’s a little issue with that though, clone health is hilariously low where I’ve seen warriors kill the clone for ileap accidentally because he used whirlwind to catch me or just ran around mashing auto on the axe. I’ve seen ranged attackers like DH massacre entire armies of clones just with the auto.

This would then mean every single phantasm attack can not only be blinded, LoS or invuln’d to prevent the summon and attack but can also be prevented from attacking by sneezing on it.

Every single class in the game doesn’t have to worry twice about if their attacks will work, you’re either in range or not, blinded or not, they’re either invuln or not. Why should mesmer have twice as many ways to counter their damage as every other class when comparatively speaking the phantasm attacks are on par (obviously not including excessive summoning via chronophantasma, CS and SotE stuff) with most other weapon skills on other classes?

Edit: also don’t forget most summon times are 1s so add very easy to interrupt onto all that.

Yes, you bring up some good points.

I am mostly afraid that because the damage is high, they will tone it down too much to the point in which it becomes ineffective. I mean how high is high to players ? Phantasms still need to hit strong since it is the mesmers’ main source of damages.

Also I would like to offer some solution to the problem you mentioned. Close to the launch of HoT, the devs made an update in which illusions would no longer randomly die to big aoes in open world unless they are specifically targeted. Why not this apply this function in SPvP to phantasms at least ?

So maybe the solution would be to significantly decrease the health (maybe not to the level of clones) and offer the counter play to not kill phantasms by accident.

[apharma.3741]

@flog.3485 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@flog.3485 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@flog.3485 said:At this point, it would just better to decrease the health of phantasm to the level of clones (for a SPvP only change imo).

Now that phantasms are a real threat because they make more damages than before and you will still gain benefit of them (due to the fact that they turn into clones no matter what), there is no point in keeping the health factor as relevant when it comes to differentiate phantasms and clones.

maybe not clone level but hp decrease could helptho another problem is , do we want to force mesmer more and more into 1v1 role , since after that change , mesmer will be even weaker for teamfight . there is fine line between gimmick and weakness .

Yes that is exactly what mesmers are. Strong duelists on side points with some good team play potential with portals (since it is a core ability).

I mean I do think clone and phantasms should have the same health now. I don’t think it is healthy PvP wise to be able to summon phantasm without much thought because, in design, you know that they will be able to tank more damages than clones and survive long enough in teamfights to deliver their big damages.

It should become skillful to summon your strong phantasms after that your opponent is disabled in any way, shape or form. I mean how hard is it to summon a high damage phantasm after performing a gravity well ? After an f3 ? After a MoD ? After a mirage thrust ?

And even if a very low skilled player can’t do anything I mentionned above, it doesn’t stop this player from using the inspiration line with the trait protected phantasm.

There’s a little issue with that though, clone health is hilariously low where I’ve seen warriors kill the clone for ileap accidentally because he used whirlwind to catch me or just ran around mashing auto on the axe. I’ve seen ranged attackers like DH massacre entire armies of clones just with the auto.

This would then mean every single phantasm attack can not only be blinded, LoS or invuln’d to prevent the summon and attack but can also be prevented from attacking by sneezing on it.

Every single class in the game doesn’t have to worry twice about if their attacks will work, you’re either in range or not, blinded or not, they’re either invuln or not. Why should mesmer have twice as many ways to counter their damage as every other class when comparatively speaking the phantasm attacks are on par (obviously not including excessive summoning via chronophantasma, CS and SotE stuff) with most other weapon skills on other classes?

Edit: also don’t forget most summon times are 1s so add very easy to interrupt onto all that.

Yes, you bring up some good points.

I am mostly afraid that because the damage is high, they will tone it down too much to the point in which it becomes ineffective. I mean how high is high to players ? Phantasms still need to hit strong since it is the mesmers’ main source of damages.

Also I would like to offer some solution to the problem you mentioned. Close to the launch of HoT, the devs made an update in which illusions would no longer randomly die to big aoes in open world unless they are specifically targeted. Why not this apply this function in SPvP to phantasms at least ?

So maybe the solution would be to significantly decrease the health (maybe not to the level of clones) and offer the counter play to not kill phantasms by accident.

Or better yet remove the entire notion of phantasm from the game, yes it would dumb down mesmer to essentially clone generating and clone spending skills but it would solve most problems. You can then unify the clones and phantasm utilities into a single utility and naming it so it’s distinct from weapon clone skills like illusion skills, make a major trait around them (cleanse a condition, cool down reduction, throw a dance party) to complete the utility set. Disenchanter and defender would need to be reworked, probably removing boons and giving barrier based on clones active or something.

Sadly it’s clear ANet wanted to hold onto the notion of phantasms though, so really the best thing to ask for is reworking the traits and skills that allow phantasm spam. I don’t know what would require more work though as you’d have to completely change CS due to the nature of it allowing you to summon 2 sets of phantasms then potentially another one after CS ends with another once weapon swap is available. No matter which way you cut it people will complain about the number of AI entities a mesmer can produce.

[Zenith.7301]

People will complain about whatever class they lose to in 1v1 the most, so that will never change.

You are asking for nerfs to the class that will only make it so they move on to complain about thieves instead (and SD thief is already absurd).

Balancing around PvP is ridiculous. There will always be imbalance because there is skill disparity between players so a fight will never be fair. In PvE enemies are static so performance can be balanced for.

[OriOri.8724]

@mortrialus.3062 said:I don't know how Imagined Burden+Signet of the Ether+Chronophantasma combo made it through the gate in that form. The extra phantasm on Imagined Burden should be removed immediately. There's also no reason for the Staff Phantasm to have two phantasms. Just roll the damage and vulnerability onto one phantasm.

Even if Imagined Burden+Signet of the Ether+Chronophantasma wasn't a solid build combo (and it is) it's an absurd level of visual noise and is extremely unhealthy in PvP on that fact alone. It doesn't matter if Power, Demo, or Condi Mirage is a more powerful. Spamming an opponent with 9-10 AI targets monsterously unhealthy for the game. At least with the zoo meta of years past, minionmancer necromancers weren't also blinking and stealthing around.

It made it into the game the same way that EM made it into the game. And honestly, there's not really a huge problem with imagined burden spawning a second phantasm, especially since it does lower the damage from each one. What should be changed is that each phantasm skill should be capped at 1 clone spawned, regardless of how many phantasms are spawned, and SotE active should be changed.