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Re-work Juggernaut into short Stability on swap


Chaith.8256

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@Chaith.8256 said:Title,

Juggernaut: Gain stability (3s) when you swap weapons in combat. (10s ICD)

So simple, so needed. I could think of many more flavorful ways to re-do it, but that wouldn't please everyone.

Thoughts

I like this idea. Maybe increase the stacks of stab granted to 2 or 3 since it will be on a 10s ICD, with a duration of 3 seconds. might can still be applied per 3 seconds, or it can also be applied at the beginning, lets say 5 stacks for those 10 seconds or something of the sort.Would be great for mass momentum as well since you're granted the stab initially, allowing to generate might immediately. Applied force would then need to be changed, make the might stack threshold 5 stacks instead to best synergize with juggernaut + mass momentum.

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Another thing that kind of plagues the flamethrower with juggernaut is it is kind of pushing the engineer into a close range position with no defensive boost. Scrapper has barrier and all, which is such a godsend, but he will still need better damage mitigation. maybe add a pulsing protection for 1 or 2 seconds as well, or simply increase toughness while in the kit to help it do its job in the range of its attacks.

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@Rezzet.3614 said:this change only seems to pop up in order to be used as a workaround fix for holo's stability nerf its the only way it would be beneficial if you can call it thatJuggernaut FT is the best core engi has right now .

stab on swap implies 1-2 stacks on a 10-20s cooldown its just not worthy of being a grandmaster much less a replacement for Juggernaut , core engi already had its dodge mines nerfed losing another grandmaster would suck .

but lets assume we do get stab on kit swap how exactly does it promote build diversity ?

the only use the trait would get is a quick double kit swap because our kits flat out succ the only kit that would benefit from stab would be tool kit its no diferent then swapping to FT proccing a stab pulse and then swapping out of FT , if anything this idea is more effective cuz FT constantly pulses stab .

This is exactly how I use FT. Camping FT isn't very effective, as people know, but going into FT, then out into another, more damaging stuff, with that little stab to get into range is really sweet. You can also perma-stab if you need, but is not the usual, unless you are in the mid of a really over cc field.

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@Ardid.7203 said:

@Rezzet.3614 said:this change only seems to pop up in order to be used as a workaround fix for holo's stability nerf its the only way it would be beneficial if you can call it thatJuggernaut FT is the best core engi has right now .

stab on swap implies 1-2 stacks on a 10-20s cooldown its just not worthy of being a grandmaster much less a replacement for Juggernaut , core engi already had its dodge mines nerfed losing another grandmaster would suck .

but lets assume we do get stab on kit swap how exactly does it promote build diversity ?

the only use the trait would get is a quick double kit swap because our kits flat out succ the only kit that would benefit from stab would be tool kit its no diferent then
swapping to FT proccing a stab pulse and then swapping out of FT
, if anything this idea is more effective cuz FT constantly pulses stab .

This is exactly how I use FT. Camping FT isn't very effective, as people know, but going into FT, then out into another, more damaging stuff, with that little stab to get into range is really sweet. You can also perma-stab if you need, but is not the usual, unless you are in the mid of a really over cc field.

Yeah, the only time it would be beneficial to camp FT is if the GM trait gave more damage mitigation so the FT can stay in range to do what it has to do. Currently, it can do decent damage, especially if you focus on keeping your crit chance super high, and if you can keep burning on the target to augment the damage for your flame jet auto, it can be real punishing to take damage from the FT. But, it can't stay in its range long enough without getting annihilated, especially against holosmith. It's funny because, FT wants you to be close range, but has no good damage mitigation so you can stay close range, so if you get into close range you get pooped on. I really think if they included pulsing protection for like 1-2 seconds every 3 seconds, or added an initial protection proc when entering the FT kit while Juggernaut is traited for like, say 5 seconds or so, with a cooldown of 8-10 seconds, it could help the FT engi build some interesting bruiser builds with the help of Mass Momentum + Adaptive Armor, or more a spikey close range build using Mass Momentum + Applied Force.

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@Iozeph.5617 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said:Yes it would be op, no class should have that much access to such a boon, ops suggestion much better

You've said yes it would be overpowered.

Care to elaborate how? One, even if juggernaut's changed to work with all kits

Let me stop you right there.....

In short there was a reason holo's stability spam got nerfed in the butt in pvp.1 your suggestion would be too strong as a passive and would create very strong passive carry in competitive modes. (Which is what anet is trying to reduce)It wouldn't be op in pve cause no one caresHaving perma stab on all your kits in pvp would be out right toxic and in the right hands would make engi down right busted.

Especially right now holos are VERRRRY stronk right now i suggest you stay with whats strong and keep killing all the mesmers for us who cant deal with them instead >.>cough up to 100% damage reduction in combat cough

Go forth and slaughter all the mesmers for us!

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@Chaith.8256 said:

gutting juggernaut

stupidest idea i ve seen suggested in my 4 years of playing .

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but yours is very shortsighted. A large net buff in usefulness & scenarios to take Firearms and it's seen as 'gutting', :anguished: .

I won't trash talk Juggernaut trait as is, some open world PvE people may find comfort in it. I only ask to consider why our only core-stability trait operates under an unrealistic requirement such as camping one kit as the dynamic Engineer profession.

I agree... which is why I stated that it should be opened up to other kits similar to how Streamlined kits works... see below my thoughts from that post:

I really wish Juggernaut applied to ANY kit. It would allow better synergy and more options for Applied Force. Currently, you have to dive into Firearms to get great consistent synergy with this trait or use Elixirs in your utility slots.

Gain Resistance (or Regen as some have suggested) and Might while wielding Med Kit (lol.)Gain Stability and Might while wielding FlamethrowerGain Protection and Might while wielding Elixir GunGain Fury and Might while wielding Bomb KitGain Retaliation and Might while we wielding Grenade KitGain Aegis and Might while wielding Mortar KitGain Quickness and Might while wielding Tool Kit

Applied Force suddenly has more synergy. This makes for some difficult choices to make which is what we should have at this tier.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Coolguy.8702" said:Yes it would be op, no class should have that much access to such a boon, ops suggestion much better

You've said yes it would be overpowered.

Care to elaborate how? One, even if juggernaut's changed to work with all kits

Let me stop you right there.....

In short there was a reason holo's stability spam got nerfed in the butt in pvp.1 your suggestion would be too strong as a passive and would create very strong passive carry in competitive modes. (Which is what anet is trying to reduce)It wouldn't be op in pve cause no one caresHaving perma stab on all your kits in pvp would be out right toxic and in the right hands would make engi down right busted.

Especially right now holos are VERRRRY stronk right now i suggest you stay with whats strong and keep killing all the mesmers for us who cant deal with them instead >.>
cough
up to 100% damage reduction in combat
cough

Go forth and slaughter all the mesmers for us!

"especially right now holos are verrrry stronk right now" Let me stop you right there, HOLO are OK they aren't "stronk" right now. They Lose easily to Any mesmer Spec, Warriors, Scoruges, Power Reaper and Possibly Guardian depending what spec. Holo Right Now in terms of "damage" is laughable and a joke intill they get a nice hotfix to help their dps. Theirs a GOOD reason why everyone playing a sustainable holo build now and not full dps.

HOLO a JOKE atm in terms of being "stronk" their just viable because of the defensive abilities they have.

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@zoopop.5630 said:

@"Coolguy.8702" said:Yes it would be op, no class should have that much access to such a boon, ops suggestion much better

You've said yes it would be overpowered.

Care to elaborate how? One, even if juggernaut's changed to work with all kits

Let me stop you right there.....

In short there was a reason holo's stability spam got nerfed in the butt in pvp.1 your suggestion would be too strong as a passive and would create very strong passive carry in competitive modes. (Which is what anet is trying to reduce)It wouldn't be op in pve cause no one caresHaving perma stab on all your kits in pvp would be out right toxic and in the right hands would make engi down right busted.

Especially right now holos are VERRRRY stronk right now i suggest you stay with whats strong and keep killing all the mesmers for us who cant deal with them instead >.>
cough
up to 100% damage reduction in combat
cough

Go forth and slaughter all the mesmers for us!

"especially right now holos are verrrry stronk right now" Let me stop you right there, HOLO are OK they aren't "stronk" right now. They Lose easily to Any mesmer Spec, Warriors, Scoruges, Power Reaper and Possibly Guardian depending what spec. Holo Right Now in terms of "damage" is laughable and a joke intill they get a nice hotfix to help their dps. Theirs a GOOD reason why everyone playing a sustainable holo build now and not full dps.

HOLO a JOKE atm in terms of being "stronk" their just viable because of the defensive abilities they have.

Everyone is losing to Mesmers atm. They are extremely OP with the latest patch. Engineer vs Scourge, not good unless ranged. As far as Warriors and Guardians, I don't see them as a problem. I think the patch opened up people's eyes. The "meta" build is not the end all be all.

In addition, this is a completely different topic from what the OP has proposed... let's keep it on track.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said:Yes it would be op, no class should have that much access to such a boon, ops suggestion much better

You've said yes it would be overpowered.

Care to elaborate how? One, even if juggernaut's changed to work with all kits

Let me stop you right there.....

In short there was a reason holo's stability spam got nerfed in the butt in pvp.1 your suggestion would be too strong as a passive and would create very strong passive carry in competitive modes. (Which is what anet is trying to reduce)It wouldn't be op in pve cause no one caresHaving perma stab on all your kits in pvp would be out right toxic and in the right hands would make engi down right busted.

Especially right now holos are VERRRRY stronk right now i suggest you stay with whats strong and keep killing all the mesmers for us who cant deal with them instead >.>
cough
up to 100% damage reduction in combat
cough

Go forth and slaughter all the mesmers for us!

I'm not sure why you're assuming it would be perma stability. If you read the original post, he said a single stack of stability for 3s with an ICD of 10s. That's pretty light as far as stability goes. Just means you couldn't be ragdolled easily by an individual when you swap to a kit or PF.

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"Coolguy.8702" said:Yes it would be op, no class should have that much access to such a boon, ops suggestion much better

You've said yes it would be overpowered.

Care to elaborate how? One, even if juggernaut's changed to work with all kits

Let me stop you right there.....

In short there was a reason holo's stability spam got nerfed in the butt in pvp.1 your suggestion would be too strong as a passive and would create very strong passive carry in competitive modes. (Which is what anet is trying to reduce)It wouldn't be op in pve cause no one caresHaving perma stab on all your kits in pvp would be out right toxic and in the right hands would make engi down right busted.

Especially right now holos are VERRRRY stronk right now i suggest you stay with whats strong and keep killing all the mesmers for us who cant deal with them instead >.>
cough
up to 100% damage reduction in combat
cough

Go forth and slaughter all the mesmers for us!

I'm not sure why you're assuming it would be perma stability. If you read the original post, he said a single stack of stability for 3s with an ICD of 10s. That's pretty light as far as stability goes. Just means you couldn't be ragdolled easily by an individual when you swap to a kit or PF.

To be fair the person i replied too had a just written different idea from the original post. I think you missed the gap between that. I replied the comment that said."Making it boon reliant further forces alchemy on the engineer. If you wanted to keep the idea of perma stab then you could extend it to all the kits and just have it be a huge kit buff so then if people want more consistent stab they have to build into kits"

So this is why I assumed it would be perma stability.I didnt relply vs the OP suggestion .

So yes it would be op to have perma stab on all kits.A single stack of 3 seconds on kit swap with a 10s icd would be easily fair.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Coolguy.8702" said:Yes it would be op, no class should have that much access to such a boon, ops suggestion much better

You've said yes it would be overpowered.

Care to elaborate how? One, even if juggernaut's changed to work with all kits

Let me stop you right there.....

In short there was a reason holo's stability spam got nerfed in the butt in pvp.1 your suggestion would be too strong as a passive and would create very strong passive carry in competitive modes. (Which is what anet is trying to reduce)It wouldn't be op in pve cause no one caresHaving perma stab on all your kits in pvp would be out right toxic and in the right hands would make engi down right busted.

Especially right now holos are VERRRRY stronk right now i suggest you stay with whats strong and keep killing all the mesmers for us who cant deal with them instead >.>
cough
up to 100% damage reduction in combat
cough

Go forth and slaughter all the mesmers for us!

I'm not sure why you're assuming it would be perma stability. If you read the original post, he said a single stack of stability for 3s with an ICD of 10s. That's pretty light as far as stability goes. Just means you couldn't be ragdolled easily by an individual when you swap to a kit or PF.

To be fair the person i replied too had a just written different idea from the original post. I think you missed the gap between that. I replied the comment that said.
"Making it boon reliant further forces alchemy on the engineer. If you wanted to keep the idea of perma stab then you could extend it to all the kits and just have it be a huge kit buff so then if people want more consistent stab they have to build into kits"

So this is why I assumed it would be perma stability.I didnt relply vs the OP suggestion .

So yes it would be op to have perma stab on all kits.A single stack of 3 seconds on kit swap with a 10s icd would be easily fair.

my b for the confusion, that was my comment and I agreed after that it would be too strong (check me on that cause I may have forgot to type it)

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@Iozeph.5617 said:But never mind kits. Heck I'll go one better(or worse) and say make Juggernaut work all the time regardless of kits or base weapons, and it still won't overpower us. That's how bad the rest of the profession is around it. Juggernaut alone isn't enough to save us.A single charge of stability of three seconds on weapon swap, the op's suggestion will be worse than what the rest of the profession currently has. A terrible trade off for the sake of bolstering one specline, Holosmith. Given latency issues for those without perfect connections, what more on a ten second internal cooldown, it's going to insure that this particular bit of stability is scarcely there when it's needed.

Two things I take issue with here.

First, no trait "alone" should individually "save" anyone. Placing that much emphasis on a single trait just creates a house of cards situation. Chaith's suggestion is a reasonable one because it would help inch things closer to making Firearms a more viable option in PvP/WvW. Right now, it gets virtually zero representation in competitive content. It was Inventions/Alchemy/Scrapper during Heart of Thorns, and now it's Inventions/Alchemy/Holosmith during Path of Fire. He's not selling it as a cure-all panacea to the profession's ills, but it's absolutely something that would help elevate the profession's build diversity and give core engineer some much needed love.

Second, I don't think Chaith sees changing Juggernaut as a "trade off for the sake of bolstering Holosmith." I'm not one to put words in his mouth, but I'm sure he'd agree with me that any changes made to make Holosmith more/less viable should be limited to changes within the tree itself. We saw way too many global buffs/nerfs to our class in Heart of Thorns on the basis of how Scrapper played; and instead of working within the Scrapper tree to handle Scrapper imbalances, ArenaNet instead chose to chip away at the periphery of our profession -- nerfing fully-functional and (supposedly) balanced traits that had been in the game and existed inoffensively since launch.

It's arguably that design philosophy that put us in the fragile position we're in now. They messed up too many foundational traits of our class that maintained its equilibrium.

@Iozeph.5617 said:Between the animation time of the swap, then the lag between whatever button you're hoping to press just after, that thee seconds won't do anything for you. Again- that's if you're not stripped or stomped out of it before you even execute the swap. The ten seconds means that after the swap you're naked, stability wise for another effective ten to twelve seconds. This on a profession with underwhelming burst capability by comparison to the other professions, even after the coming nerfs. This on a profession more reliant than ever on the one trick pony of rocket boots. Now, especially now that we're even more at the mercy of crowd control than ever, this means it's just going to be a matter of whether you take it in the face or take it in the back when trying to run away.

Not to sound super passive-aggressive here, but it sounds like you just don't know: you can, in fact, swap kits while you're completing other actions.

For years, engineers (that were good) popped Elixir S as they were channeling a resurrect or a stomp to secure its completion. A single stack of stability isn't exactly a "safe" stomp, but scrappers got by with a single stack of stability just fine when activating their f-gyro. I think you're greatly understating the value of such a change.

@Iozeph.5617 said:Engineers are just this bad. I love them but they're still the least played profession for good reason. If they're to have any hope of going forward then they need to quit being held back by proponents of the, 'buy a new computer, get a blazing fast connection, make the game your second job or be a trust fund baby dripping money out your buttocks, git gud, and play-only-this-build-which-happens-to-work-awesomely-for-me-but-possibly-not-for-you-cause-you're-bad,' school of mmo playing.

Engineer is the least-played profession because it's a techie class in a high fantasy game. That's it.

We've been a meta class in PvP for pretty much this game's entire existence, and engineer had fairly dominant representation in old-school fractals. Popularity is not in any way a signal of profession health; hunters are one of the most popular classes in World of Warcraft, but they're among the least represented professions in 2000+ arenas and offer middling to trash DPS in raids.

No, people just play hunters in WoW -- just like how they play elementalists and guardians in GW2 -- because it's a traditional and accessible class fantasy. Even despite how strong it is across all aspects of the game, you might be surprised to know that mesmer is also one of the least played classes in the game.

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Why weaken the least used class in GW2? It doesn't make any sense to me! So less people play it? Again, it makes no sense! Necros and almost every other class have an overabundance of OP set ups. I personally don't like the Holosmith gameplay. I prefer my Flamethrower Scrapper. In Wvw and Pve. As many others do. It's far from OP. I have put years and alot into my Engi. Just to be ruined by a few complaining. It's already been weakened lately due to the condi cleanse removed from Elixirs. Other profession players complaining.........I'm sorry if you got stomped by an Engi at one time. It was probably a really skilled player. And Not necessarily the build. Just Get over it and move on. And Go pick on the Scourge , Reaper or Mesmers. I'm sure they have killed you more often than a mere Engineer. So leave the Engi alone! Anet..... Just remove the class, if this is the way Engineer is headed. Weakening it out of existence. Sigh!

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@"Warrior Xsr.1672" said:Why weaken the least used class in GW2? It doesn't make any sense to me! So less people play it? Again, it makes no sense! Necros and almost every other class have an overabundance of OP set ups. I personally don't like the Holosmith gameplay. I prefer my Flamethrower Scrapper. In Wvw and Pve. As many others do. It's far from OP. I have put years and alot into my Engi. Just to be ruined by a few complaining. It's already been weakened lately due to the condi cleanse removed from Elixirs. Other profession players complaining.........I'm sorry if you got stomped by an Engi at one time. It was probably a really skilled player. And Not necessarily the build. Just Get over it and move on. And Go pick on the Scourge , Reaper or Mesmers. I'm sure they have killed you more often than a mere Engineer. So leave the Engi alone! Anet..... Just remove the class, if this is the way Engineer is headed. Weakening it out of existence. Sigh!

There has never once been a connection between Juggernaut trait and how engi has performed in PvP/WvW/Raids/Fractals. If you were actually concerned about the viability of Engi in competitive content you can just play a competitive build.

"Other profession Players complaining.........." You have no idea but you're barking up the wrong tree. It may blow your mind but players who play Engi in every game mode (me) are suggesting to change juggernaut in order to buff Engineers viability in PvP modes. You're actually everything you claim to disagree with.

I previously said I would not trash talk this trait and the players who are dependent on it. Despite this, Juggernaut builds are inherently the welfare engi - reducing the intended dynamic Engi gameplay to a single bar while collecting on Juggernaut & Mass momentum, all just for a subpar experience. This isn't a camping playstyle that needs to continue to drain the viability of Firearms in PvP modes.

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@Phineas Poe.3018 said:Two things I take issue with here.

First, no trait "alone" should individually "save" anyone. Placing that much emphasis on a single trait just creates a house of cards situation. Chaith's suggestion is a reasonable one because it would help inch things closer to making Firearms a more viable option in PvP/WvW. Right now, it gets virtually zero representation in competitive content. It was Inventions/Alchemy/Scrapper during Heart of Thorns, and now it's Inventions/Alchemy/Holosmith during Path of Fire. He's not selling it as a cure-all panacea to the profession's ills, but it's absolutely something that would help elevate the profession's build diversity and give core engineer some much needed love.

Second, I don't think Chaith sees changing Juggernaut as a "trade off for the sake of bolstering Holosmith." I'm not one to put words in his mouth, but I'm sure he'd agree with me that any changes made to make Holosmith more/less viable should be limited to changes within the tree itself. We saw way too many global buffs/nerfs to our class in Heart of Thorns on the basis of how Scrapper played; and instead of working within the Scrapper tree to handle Scrapper imbalances, ArenaNet instead chose to chip away at the periphery of our profession -- nerfing fully-functional and (supposedly) balanced traits that had been in the game and existed inoffensively since launch.

It's arguably that design philosophy that put us in the fragile position we're in now. They messed up too many foundational traits of our class that maintained its equilibrium.

That trait alone wouldn't save us. Just as with conditions and our old cleansing via elixirs, boon stripping/corruption, particularly in group competitive modes where you're liable to be facing more than one character capable of doing either or both in rapid succession, would still be a handful.

As to changes for Juggernaut all I'm reading is whats written as opposed to the changes incoming. I'm all for changes for the efficacy of holosmith being kept to the holosmith line, but as with the op suggestion - the same sort of change was proposed for backpack regenerator some time ago- a limited duration, on-swap or on-equip only ability for kits. Instead of asking for changes to holosmith to gain regen from something organic to the holosmith line a change was proposed for core. I made the exact argument you made for keeping changes to the holo spec line in your paragraph above and was told effectively to quit whingeing about my precious core profession being picked apart for the betterment of a single spec line. Well, here we are.

This is why I'd rather have have Juggernaut left alone or its scope widened. It's annoying enough what was done to elixirs we don't need another core trait made worse to shore up a nerf to an elite spec line.

@Phineas Poe.3018 said:Not to sound super passive-aggressive here, but it sounds like you just don't know: you can, in fact, swap kits while you're completing other actions.

For years, engineers (that were good) popped Elixir S as they were channeling a resurrect or a stomp to secure its completion. A single stack of stability isn't exactly a "safe" >stomp, but scrappers got by with a single stack of stability just fine when activating their f-gyro. I think you're greatly understating the value of such a change.

Yes, if you're "good," right? Some of us just play with what we have. We don't invest in gaming mice with ten plus programmable buttons. Don't analyse everything to the nth degree. Doesn't make the people who do bad people. Doesn't make the people who don't bad either. See again what I said about exceptions which prove the rule. The profession -any profession- shouldn't be balanced/nerfed around what a select few are capable of. And while yes it's perfectly doable to switch kits on the fly, something most engineers do on occasion, and while yes elixir S is usable in that fashion that degree of bar/ability swapping isn't my personal cup of tea. I don't particularly hump kits but I don;t enjoy having to stand aside in the middle of a battle to swap another ability I wouldn't regularly slot onto a bar before needing to do it again. Call that lazy, I'm not blessed with the best connection at all times either, and I'm certain I'm not alone in that.

Seconds, even fractions of a second matter and I'd rather have a passive running which I know isn't going to be turned off if I'm ambushed, as opposed to something which isn't going to fire off if there's input lag -whether thats due to the connection on my end, or to the sheer amount of players suddenly loading onto the screen at the time in a WvW battle map or an open world boss encountre. I'm not underestimating the value of such a change. I'm saying,again, get the change from somewhere else and leave the core passives alone.

@Phineas Poe.3018 said:Engineer is the least-played profession because it's a techie class in a high fantasy game. That's it.

We've been a meta class in PvP for pretty much this game's entire existence, and engineer had fairly dominant representation in old-school fractals. Popularity is not in any way a signal of profession health; hunters are one of the most popular classes in World of Warcraft, but they're among the least represented professions in 2000+ arenas and offer middling to trash DPS in raids.

No, people just play hunters in WoW -- just like how they play elementalists and guardians in GW2 -- because it's a traditional and accessible class fantasy. Even despite how strong it is across all aspects of the game, you might be surprised to know that mesmer is also one of the least played classes in the game.

More opinions on that so I guess I'll share mine. People play(ed) hunters in wow because they work. Just as they play the many stripes of Thief, and Weavers and Firebrands, and until recently even Holosmiths; because they work(ed). They played as advertised. Pumped out damage with a relatively easy to master rotation. Path of least resistance. That's why so many non-engineer players were lining up when Holo was leaked. It's why many are beginning to regret that decision now just as some did when Scrapper was gutted in a similar fashion in its time.

Mesmer's not surprising. It's a relatively easy to pick up profession, all GW2 professions are, but it's yet another one with a high skill ceiling, it's glass, and it's lightly armoured and fiddly in that half of its damage comes from a mechanic which is centered on the target and destructible. For the average player it's not worth spending the time when there are better performing professions for less time investment.

Engineer is similarly least played because new players(most players) continue to follow that path of least resistance. They come in, get their feet wet, perhaps even make it to eighty, and discover they'd unwittingly opted into a profession which in gw2's nebulous 'end game' calls for a high degree of tedium(juggling a plethora of abilities and synergies) to perform nearly as well as other professions which have it much easier by comparison.

By now nearly everyone has an Engineer, or has gotten their feet wet. The question is how many stick with them and how many continue to play them over something which, for their limited time and schedules, allows them a greater degree of success for less effort in a competitive game mode -and of late which will get them a coveted spot in a raid. The answer for the first is now no, because it's more tedious and not worth a repeat stress injury. The answer to the second is no because it just doesn't do any one of its jobs, let alone two as well as any other professions, of which some are capable of doing one exceptionally well and more than one much better. And even when an Engineer does come near enough, bias is such that unless you have a group of friends willing to humour the eccentricity of having an engineer along, the average group won't want the hassle. The average player doesn't want to come into a group setting and immediately defend their choice or have to prove their credentials/capabilities every damn time because: Engineer. Rangers should be familiar enough with that. It's the gaming equivalent of being guilty of driving while black.

That devs have made switching goal posts with this profession's balance something of an artform/meme and that on top of all the rest makes Engineer even less appealling due to a lack of communication and a certainty as to what we're wanted for, or even capable of doing for a group. We used to be jacks of all trades and that used to set us apart. Engineers have been superceded by just about every other profession in that regard. Nobody strictly needs us anymore. Players, particularly new players who know they'll be playing catch-up, want to be included. There's no stressing that enough.

Thematically, however, I still say Engineer's one of the most appealing professions, particularly for its steampunk nature which is something that has quite a following. Call it the snowflake profession if you want but it's that sort of thematic difference- in a game where everyone is wielding a sword or bow or some form of magic, which sets it apart and that's arguably appeal enough for many.

Engineering as a crafting profession was exceptionally popular in WoW before many of the gadgets were nerfed. It became a massive gold sink when the gyro copter and the motorcycle were added, but still didn't offer much beyond that. As with GW2, WoW is also a steampunk/high technology/magic setting, and there were plenty of Gnome, Dwarf, and later on Goblin players begging for engineering to be something other than just a crafting line seeing as how Gnomeregon, Dwarven tanks, the Horde's many airships, and the Ulduar ruins came from somewhere. In the end though, for GW2 at least, it comes down to how much the average player/steampunk enthusiast wants to continue being fed drek sandwiches by the devs as they 'suffer for fashion's sake.' Not many as it happens.

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@Iozeph.5617 said:Yes, if you're "good," right? Some of us just play with what we have. We don't invest in gaming mice with ten plus programmable buttons. Don't analyse everything to the nth degree. Doesn't make the people who do bad people. Doesn't make the people who don't bad either. See again what I said about exceptions which prove the rule. The profession -any profession- shouldn't be balanced/nerfed around what a select few are capable of. And while yes it's perfectly doable to switch kits on the fly, something most engineers do on occasion, and while yes elixir S is usable in that fashion that degree of bar/ability swapping isn't my personal cup of tea. I don't particularly hump kits but I don;t enjoy having to stand aside in the middle of a battle to swap another ability I wouldn't regularly slot onto a bar before needing to do it again. Call that lazy, I'm not blessed with the best connection at all times either, and I'm certain I'm not alone in that.

If you're not making use of all our profession's features -- including the ability to swap kits while completing other actions -- you may not be a "bad" player, but you are absolutely not a "good" player. Not doing so just inconveniences your team and diminishes your potential as a role contributor. I'm sorry if that offends you, but that's just how things are: if I had the choice to have someone who makes use of all of their profession's gimmicks or someone who doesn't, I'll always take the person who does ... whether that's in PvP, WvW, or PvE.

Why would I, for example, take a warrior who can't properly cancel their Whirlwind Attack? Why would I take a mesmer in dungeons who can't illusionary leap pull mobs properly? These aren't things only a "select few" are capable of. These are things that just defines good players from mediocre ones. And if you seriously refuse to pop Elixir S or an extra gyro for safe stomping purposes, I certainly wouldn't call you a "good" engineer -- but I'd absolutely call you lazy.

@Iozeph.5617 said:Seconds, even fractions of a second matter and I'd rather have a passive running which I know isn't going to be turned off if I'm ambushed, as opposed to something which isn't going to fire off if there's input lag -whether thats due to the connection on my end, or to the sheer amount of players suddenly loading onto the screen at the time in a WvW battle map or an open world boss encountre. I'm not underestimating the value of such a change. I'm saying,again, get the change from somewhere else and leave the core passives alone.

But again, the change is to also help core engineer and scrapper. Chaith never said anything about this being strictly a holosmith buff. In fact, he wrote: "It's not a Holosmith gimme, Core and Scrapper would greatly benefit from a cornerstone stability trait available. Esp. Core engi which actually uses firearms."

It's y'all who turned this into a holosmith discussion. He didn't even mention it until numerous posters made the association.

@Iozeph.5617 said:Thematically, however, I still say Engineer's one of the most appealing professions, particularly for its steampunk nature which is something that has quite a following. Call it the snowflake profession if you want but it's that sort of thematic difference- in a game where everyone is wielding a sword or bow or some form of magic, which sets it apart and that's arguably appeal enough for many.

For many, sure. But for most? No. Most people see this game is about dragons and magic and pick warrior, ranger, guardian, or elementalist. It's just how things are. You can talk all you want about what's meta or how hard engi is to play, but most engineers playing this game are represented less by Chaith and more by Warrior Xsr. They don't care about what's good or bad. They just do open world dynamic events and press 1 to win versus Tequatl a few times a week. The people who raid, PvP, or run high level fractals and care about profession/trait balance are a very tiny subset of the broader community, and you can see plenty of that on display in this thread with how many people saying they currently use Juggernaut.

Also LOL about your mentioning of gnomes and goblins in WoW. They're literally the least played races by a long-shot. If you combine the pandaren populations of both Alliance and Horde, they make up a more significant number than gnomes or goblins do.

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I love how some of you are telling me I'm "wrong" for liking my build and wanting to keep it. I use it in WvW and PvE. And want to continue to use it. Just as it is now! I like my Juggernaut and want to keep it as is. I really don't care why others don't want to see it continue or what their agenda is. Trash talk it all you want. I play my build. Not that one or two cheesy meta builds everyone else uses, or thinks I should use. I don't like Holosmith. Plain and simple. And shouldn't be force to run anything in this game I don't want to. I have spent 4+ years happily running this build, and will continue until the "complainers" ruin it for me. Whether an actual Engineer player or other profession complaining. Why an Engi would complain about a decent trait is beyond me. I'm not "concerned about the viability of Engi in competitive content" No matter how small that window actually is. I'm defending it! as it is now! .......To Leave it be!...........Now.... go pick on a profession that really needs addressing! ......... End of discussion for me!

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@"Warrior Xsr.1672" said:I love how some of you are telling me I'm "wrong" for liking my build and wanting to keep it. I use it in WvW and PvE. And want to continue to use it. Just as it is now! I like my Juggernaut and want to keep it as is. I really don't care why others don't want to see it continue or what their agenda is. Trash talk it all you want. I play my build. Not that one or two cheesy meta builds everyone else uses, or thinks I should use. I don't like Holosmith. Plain and simple. And shouldn't be force to run anything in this game I don't want to. I have spent 4+ years happily running this build, and will continue until the "complainers" ruin it for me. Whether an actual Engineer player or other profession complaining. Why an Engi would complain about a decent trait is beyond me. I'm not "concerned about the viability of Engi in competitive content" No matter how small that window actually is. I'm defending it! as it is now! .......To Leave it be!...........Now.... go pick on a profession that really needs addressing! ......... End of discussion for me!

You're not "wrong" for liking Juggernaut, but you're absolutely wrong if you're trying to argue that it's a strong trait choice in 2018 for PvP or WvW.

Core engineer has been remarkably outclassed in PvP since the introduction of elite specializations in 2015, and core engineer was pretty much never a good profession in WvW outside of roaming. The closest engineer ever got to being a meta profession is the scrapper with its Sneak Gyro tool belt reveal skill, but even that was exclusively useful in only the most organized settings like GvGs -- and you usually only brought one engineer.

Long story short, the core engineer trait lines outside of Alchemy and Inventions are absolutely not worth defending. Explosives has had its moments in the sun here and there, but Tools and Firearms have seen virtually zero representation in any meaningful competitive areas for close to three years now. That is simply unacceptable; it's something no other profession deals with!

I understand that you don't care about what's meta, but please understand -- at the very least -- that many of us do. Many of us only play Guild Wars 2 at this point strictly because of its PvP and WvW offerings. It's the one thing this game does better than any other MMORPG on the market, but I am absolutely sick and tired of running the same traits year over year over year.

I'd also like to point out that camping the flamethrower is not a good choice in World vs. World because Flame Jet's multi-hit design doesn't mesh very well with the mechanics of retaliation. If you shoot Flame Jet into a zerg, you'll just kill yourself.

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@Phineas Poe.3018 said:

@"Iozeph.5617" said:But again, the change is to also help core engineer and scrapper. Chaith never said anything about this being strictly a holosmith buff. In fact, he wrote: "It's not a Holosmith gimme, Core and Scrapper would greatly benefit from a cornerstone stability trait available. Esp. Core engi which actually uses firearms."

It's y'all who turned this into a holosmith discussion. He didn't even mention it until numerous posters made the association.

The other parts left out are opinions we'll just have to disagree about.

As for nothing being said about holosmith, it didn't have to as neither of the proposed changes- either for backpack regenerator or Juggernaut- were posted until after a change was made/announced by devs to the holosmith, first with its regen, and secondly with the issue of stability. Before that, nobody cared about either trait or the other spec lines enough to suggest they be changed in those fashions. Call it coincidence if you want but the timing was suspect then and it's suspect now. Not mentioning the elite spec by name doesn't change that. Mind, I'm not implying malice. Everybody has a personal preference for what class or spec lines they play.

That said, it would still have been better to at least be open about what's wanted and why it's wanted it instead of proffering the changes as boons to every Engineer setup in order to sell them easier to the community.

Just say, 'I play Holosmith. I've been enjoying it immensely. In my opinion it performed better(still does) than the other speclines for my game modes of choice until some recent changes. In order to maintain the performance level I've grown accustomed to I want to change some traits in other lines I see as currently useless or less useful to me, regardless of how the rest of you feel about them or what you personally enjoy. If you disagree with me you're wrong. If you continue to argue you're backward and actively trying to hold the profession back. Please shut up and go away.'

It's not going to win any points for tact but at least people will know where they stand with the poster.

Core and Scrapper have that sort of trait right now in juggernaut's current incarnation, just swap in and out of flamethrower. Having a pulsing stability for times when that's needed is just as valuable. If you want on-swap stability, or regeneration, then propose changes which don't overwrite other traits which others are currently happy with(even if their happiness doesn't necessarily agree with your own). Is that so difficult?

Rather than trying to get around a perceived problem in one line, one which apparently the devs believed was overperforming enough in that singular aspect to call for its nerfing, by then fiddling with another line to get what it once had back. Then, in turn dismissing people who disagree with that by saying they're 'resistant to change.'

Pot meet kettle.

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@"Iozeph.5617" said:Pot meet kettle.

From my point of view it's the two people ITT who love Juggernaut builds who are more directly crying: "Please shut up and go away." Pot meet kettle indeed, though perhaps can we shift the conversation away from which side are tactless meanies and back to GW2 traits? Based on posts from Warrior Xsr I'm not sure shining a light on that is in your best interest either.

There's been posts on backpack regenerator since they broke it in core spec patch, 3 years ago.

You're half correct in the timing of this post and Crystal Configuration: Eclipse nerf, now a cornerstone stability trait would be a potential option for the entire Engineer profession. However, quoting words into my mouth:

@"Iozeph.5617" said:Just say, 'I play Holosmith. I've been enjoying it immensely. In my opinion it performed better(still does) than the other speclines for my game modes of choice until some recent changes. In order to maintain the performance level I've grown accustomed to I want to change some traits in other lines I see as currently useless or less useful to me.'

'Just say X opinion' stuff, that's pretty weak, and doesn't represent my views. Here are my views on within Engi balance: Changing Juggernaut does not favor any one specialization.

Personally, Holosmith holds no emotional importance over Scrapper and Core. However, a tweak like this it could become a Holosmith trade off of inventions/alchemy/tools to slot the never-been-used Firearms spec for some reliable stability, maybe even open up never-been-used choices in the Holosmith master tier traits.

An offensive Scrapper using Firearms, Alchemy & Scrapper with Mass momentum, elixirs, mortar, that build I'm aware of is very much needing more stability to power mass momentum that doesn't hinge on flamethrower.

The build I made for core Engi now deemed "bursty boi" on metabattle, some stability over mModified Ammunition would be smart as well.

I am also of the opinion that core (especially) and Scrapper need more of an edge, and I have other suggestions for that for another thread.

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@"Iozeph.5617" said:Just say, 'I play Holosmith. I've been enjoying it immensely. In my opinion it performed better(still does) than the other speclines for my game modes of choice until some recent changes. In order to maintain the performance level I've grown accustomed to I want to change some traits in other lines I see as currently useless or less useful to me, regardless of how the rest of you feel about them or what you personally enjoy. If you disagree with me you're wrong. If you continue to argue you're backward and actively trying to hold the profession back. Please shut up and go away.'

It's not going to win any points for tact but at least people will know where they stand with the poster.

Iozeph, I actually can't stand holosmith. It's like a thirteen-year-old's image of what the engineer should be: all flash, no substance. You just mash your keyboard; there's almost zero rotation to any of it, and it's probably the most brain-dead PvP build we've had since 100nades was a thing. ArenaNet managed to make an elite specialization that's even more boring to play than scrapper.

I, like many players that have played this game since launch, just want to play core engineer. It's the design and concept I originally fell in love with; and while I liked the idea of elite specializations when they announced it, I don't like that each elite specialization just pushes us further and further away from that core design concept, and I don't like how they hung scrapper and its garbage AI around our neck the second Heart of Thorns came out. Engineers, a lot like rangers with druid, were forced to adapt to the times, reroll to a different profession, or simply quit the game.

I did a mix of options one and three. I gave the build a genuine shot, but after being disappointed by the quality of raids and the poor balance of seasons one and two, I eventually took the third option. I came back to the game for season five with the hype surrounding the return of a ranked leaderboard, but I immediately quit when people started gaming the decay system and made a mockery of the whole idea. I then came back to the game again in season eight when they brought back monthly automated tournaments, but I quit the game again when some select players chose to -- again -- torpedo any momentum this game ever had for some short-sighted title chasing by "buying" the monthly title.

Frankly, I find it ridiculous that you'd make this into me "enjoying holosmith immensely" or arguing that I've grown accustomed to anything. I have given zero reason for you to believe that about me. If I'm being honest here, the only thing I've grown accustomed to is the bitter taste this game continues to leave in my mouth as it veers further and further away from its original vision.

It's funny that CJ once sold this game with the mantra against "swinging your sword" mindlessly, and yet that's emblematic to the design of Guild Wars 2 elite specializations in 2018. Conditions are applied just to be washed away, and peoples' health bars just fluctuate between 90% and 10% values ad nauseum.

Guild Wars 2, admittedly, was never an e-sport -- but it's never been further away from becoming one, and holosmith is a good example why.

@"Iozeph.5617" said:Rather than trying to get around a perceived problem in one line, one which apparently the devs believed was overperforming enough in that singular aspect to call for its nerfing, by then fiddling with another line to get what it once had back. Then, in turn dismissing people who disagree with that by saying they're 'resistant to change.'

That's a weird use of quotes considering I never said anyone was "resistant to change." I didn't "dismiss" anyone either.

I said, "I understand that you don't care about what's meta, but please understand -- at the very least -- that many of us do." I respect your point of view, and I respect your desire to play the game as you want to; but I would expect that same level of respect and not have words put in my mouth.

As for the pot calling the kettle black: Iozeph, I tried for years to make the flamethrower a viable weapon choice. I authored a guide back in 2012 on how to effectively use it open world to solo nearly all the game's content back when most people still had no idea how to even fill their trait lines. I'd link you to it, but Guild Wars 2 Guru's forums are no longer in existence.

I loved the aesthetic, and I tried everything to make it work. It was a weapon that never really did much in terms of damage; but paired with the elixir gun, it could effectively "carry" content just in the same way greatsword "anchor" guardians did. It was fun, but it was short-sighted. And as people stopped wiping to dungeon content and the speed clearing meta settled in, we were forced to run grenade kits in dungeons and fractals.

I stopped running the FT/EG build, favoring instead to follow the suggestions of people like Guanglai, who put in the time to crunch numbers and optimize our role production, but I still would -- from time to time -- try to create a dialogue both here and on Guild Wars 2 Guru to come up with ways to make the FT a better kit. Some of those suggestions, like turning Flame Blast into a blast finisher, actually were received well by ArenaNet and were later implemented.

You are honestly talking to the one person that arguably put the most effort communicating with ArenaNet what was wrong with the kit, making recommendations to improve it. So don't effing tell me that "nobody cared about either trait or the other spec lines enough to suggest they be changed." I spent years trying to see the FT a meta-friendly kit; and if ArenaNet hadn't changed forums, all you would've had to do is scroll through my posting history to see that.

But much like GW2Guru, this game is old, and a lot of those old conversations have to be tossed into the digital dust bin at some point or another.

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So admittedly, this topic was sour on me as I've stubbornly run a FT camping build since HoT was released ... and I love it because of what it's capable of doing in high NPC, high CC environments.

Still, the OP is correct and I begrudgingly believe that a suggestion to make Juggernaut less dependent on a single kit is necessary, if not for any reason but the fact that it is not inline with a fundamental concept of the Engi class; swapping between kits for optimal play. Good Job Chaith

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Just bumped a thread from November where I designed changes to Juggernaut which were more in depth and specialized to help FT Engineer maintain strength even when using their mainhand weapon, and not camping FT.

It was as follows:

New Juggernaut: In combat only, interval extended to 5s, stab duration increased to 4s, might stacks increased from 1 to 2 to reflect larger interval. Effect extended to affect Pistol and Rifle mainhand as well as Flamethrower. Five second interval makes you have to be in the correct kit for a while until the boons are given. Interval reset to 0 from any interruption from wielding a weapon/kit that's affected by this trait. (Note: This 5 second wait time reset is designed to make this trait less effective for Elixir S, Photon Forge, or other non-flamethrower kits, preventing those users from gaining Stability until a full 5s interval has passed on re-entering.)

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this offered changes bring more harm than good to engineer overall

wich build exactly benefits from having 1 or multiple kits to swap constantly for stability ?

because if we're honest even if the trait worked in a way that each kit had a stab pulse with each own icd it still would be detrimental

yes engi would have more stability but their performance overall would plummet

the only build i see posibly benefitting is bomb auto spammers

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