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RAIDS LACK CLASS DIVERSITY- Possible Solutions.


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@Gravenz.6258 said:@Talindra.4958It's true that it's a start since the mirror comp died.However diversity is only a DPS privilege so far and it's extremely annoying when you see the bridled potential of other classes to fill tanking or healer roles...

It's partly the meta drive.. happen in all mmoIn the early days believe it or not.. we killed our first VG and gorse with hammer war as tank lol.. I was heal ele. Now barrier is quite good to replace one healer.. although many groups still run two druids due to solid group dps these days

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@LadyKitty.6120 said:

@"Adamsdjr.1350" said:ANY endgame content is going to require you to min/max to get the best chance at beating hard content. This is true in raids, high end fractrals, and organized wvw. Some things are just going to work better for how the game is now, those circumstances or classes will change over time and something else will become better. If you don't want to play what is "best", then find a group of people that don't mind you playing condi engi in a raid environment, or soulbeast in an organized zerg, or LB warrior in fractals.

this really is an old fashioned form of thinking that derived from raiding 10-15 years ago. As the average age of the player base has risen so has tastes. Mmorpg are not just about min/maxing, its about casual pleasure and competitiveness. WVW,SPVP,Open world PVP, fractals/Dungeons none of these need the absolute optimal builds, and the design intention is actually build diversity. Raiding in its current format bucks this trend, but it has changed in all the other AAA mmorpg, GW2 is just a bit behind the times - possible because of the experience of the Anet raid devs, and the type of player it attracts.

This.

The other top played MMOs, WoW and FF, do not have class diversity issues nearly as problematic as GW2. In GW2, most of the vanilla specs are unusable for DPS (or really anything....there goes 1/3rd of your roster). Several elite specs are trash. An entire class is a joke (Necro). There is only 1 or 2 (pushing it there) viable healer or tank specs. DPS variation is pushing over 30%, that is far from just "min maxing". There are 3 mandatory classes/specs in a group of 10....

This isn't a community issue. WoW and FF have even more elitists communities (as they have much harder and numerous PVE content.) It's a game design (numbers and hand full of required OP buffs) issue.

When you see other games with many more specs being not just viable, but competitive, I just think GW2s balance team is small or something. I can't fathom what else is the issue.

Not really true.SC's highest average on small hitbox are power weaver and condimirage with 35k. A build 30% below that would be 24,5k. Even if we go by the other way and say strongest build is 30% stronger than this build, the weakest class/stat combo would need to hit 26,9k benchmark. And as of now, only power soulbeast is around that. Most powerful builds for other class/stat combos reach around 29k territory, making them 18% weaker than weeber or weeber is 20,2% stronger than 2nd worst class/stat combo (power reaper). And within 10% from combos' strongest version, there's dozens of alternative weapon combo/spec versions. But you'll never see them 'cause they're not potentially best. And ofc the real difference between them isn't measured and published by anyone since people who can pull off 99% of any build's potential are only benching best alternatives.

Save for Kitty, but she can't do it again before august BP, not to mention that she's not skilled enough for pulling off optimal rotations properly as her raid skill level playing any class is better than 80-90% of players but worse than top 10% (except for DH as top 5th%). And she's horrible at weeber and conditeef. So all Kitty can do is show how builds would work at generally expectable pug skill level. But guess there's still need for her stuffs since some people keep exaggerating the difference between meta and alternatives
grinds teeth
. But videos of tests will be on request, not autoloaded, not before August.

When it comes to healing and chronos, chronos are the indebatable boonbot, especially chaos chronos. If chronos provide boons, it only leaves might for other healers, which opens a few possibilities.
  1. 1 good mightbot druid and a pure healer of choice.
  2. 2 bad druids
  3. 2 FBs/rene/heralds/ healengis/scourges/good ele healers

Druid's main benefit is providing might for 10 when it provides might and with good druid and 2 chaos chronos, boons are covered and 2nd healer can be anything, preferably something defensive for better failsafe against mechanics.Unfortunately, incomprehensibly average druid performs at 35-40% of good druid's potential. According to what Kitty's been seeing on Gw2 Raidar, they provide max 8-9 mights per squad member, or 16-18 for 5 if comparing 2 druids to 2 other healers. And as it happens, rene would output more or same easier. FB can easily provide that on anything that isn't VG, Matt or Xera. Healengi can do it, too. And for scourge, mightbotting is child's play. Chaos chronos can provide the rest, as well as peoples' self might-gen. Only benefits druids have are some extra utilities for a couple bosses (some other classes have those utilities too) and spirits.

Let's see.
  1. Healengi has PD available to replace spotter.
  2. FB ensures maximum quickness uptimes and shares dozens of blocks to defend against mechanics.
  3. Healrene can bring AP to replace spotter, as well as ensure full alacrity.
  4. Healscourge provides Vampiric Presense to compensate a bit for spotter. And with healscourges, there's no time spent on ressing as they pull downed people out of danger zone and essentially aoe auto-res them with a couple key presses. Not that it'd be easy to get downed with those barriers. And dat sweet epicleave ^^

Yes yes, the 20% damage gaps are still a bit huge, but pulling out more of the potential of lowly-potent class can still easily outperform average-played meta (especially average DHs. Sorry about hate but Kitty just can't comprehend average DH and druid numbers she sees on gw2 raidar as those players would do way better as power renes or deadeyes or condisoulbeasts or kitless holos).

Sorry about long wall of text. Boring PCless night is boring.

..................... ...Do you really think... Healer Engi can be a viable AND not only viable build, but a build that can REPLACE another Healing options.................

ALRIGHT EVERYONE, IF YOU SAW A HEALER ENGI PUGGING (WICH IS LIKE SEEING A DODO AROUND), WOULD YOU ALLOW HIM TO JOIN THE SQUAD?, EVEN IF THAT MEANT HAVING 300 HPS AS HEALER OR A 4K HEALER THAT CAN ONLY BURST ONCE EACH 20 SECS....

......I have tried to play the build, and let me tell you, that my guild leader kicked me for tryharding with such illusionary heal...

If condi engi is gone, what in your right mind makes you think someone will play this bulls**t water field reliant build!?!?

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@TexZero.7910 said:

@Ivantreil.3092 said:that Chrono's and Druid's established presence in raids since HoT has to f*cking go!?!?

If you have a reasonable way of accomplishing this that doesn't include destroying those elite specs identity im more than willing to listen to it...

Honestly, if you are putting it that way, the only thing that comes trough my mind is a powercreep of support builds among the rest of the classes, i couldn't care less if it ends up creating a more forgiving environment, chrono and druid already had their support glory, let someone else take an attempt to the charge of the boon/tank/heal role.

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If truely a player is stuck with druid or chrono since 2015, one, it just proves how ridiculous this "meta" is, two, they have a serious problem (?).This said I'm pretty sure players wont quit, on the contrary it would bring something new, people would not be cornered to those two specs anymore. Thus bringing more interest into healing and tanking for other players thus more flexibility in parties.

Personaly I love playing support/healing roles in most games but I was atrociously bored of playing druid after 4 months, because while I see my collegues being able to change and adapt to each fights by switching character I was stuck with this curse because other healers are completely unreliable on their own, in a game that boasted of its classes' divers game-play as its main selling point ...

And despite the obstinacy of some to keep the chrono-druidstravangaza going by arguing that there's no other way, it's false, because it's already starting to change, slowly but surely. However to fix the issue once and for all they'd need to focus on 5 to 10man content, which doesn't seem to be a priority ~

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@Ivantreil.3092 said:

@"Adamsdjr.1350" said:ANY endgame content is going to require you to min/max to get the best chance at beating hard content. This is true in raids, high end fractrals, and organized wvw. Some things are just going to work better for how the game is now, those circumstances or classes will change over time and something else will become better. If you don't want to play what is "best", then find a group of people that don't mind you playing condi engi in a raid environment, or soulbeast in an organized zerg, or LB warrior in fractals.

this really is an old fashioned form of thinking that derived from raiding 10-15 years ago. As the average age of the player base has risen so has tastes. Mmorpg are not just about min/maxing, its about casual pleasure and competitiveness. WVW,SPVP,Open world PVP, fractals/Dungeons none of these need the absolute optimal builds, and the design intention is actually build diversity. Raiding in its current format bucks this trend, but it has changed in all the other AAA mmorpg, GW2 is just a bit behind the times - possible because of the experience of the Anet raid devs, and the type of player it attracts.

This.

The other top played MMOs, WoW and FF, do not have class diversity issues nearly as problematic as GW2. In GW2, most of the vanilla specs are unusable for DPS (or really anything....there goes 1/3rd of your roster). Several elite specs are trash. An entire class is a joke (Necro). There is only 1 or 2 (pushing it there) viable healer or tank specs. DPS variation is pushing over 30%, that is far from just "min maxing". There are 3 mandatory classes/specs in a group of 10....

This isn't a community issue. WoW and FF have even more elitists communities (as they have much harder and numerous PVE content.) It's a game design (numbers and hand full of required OP buffs) issue.

When you see other games with many more specs being not just viable, but competitive, I just think GW2s balance team is small or something. I can't fathom what else is the issue.

Not really true.SC's highest average on small hitbox are power weaver and condimirage with 35k. A build 30% below that would be 24,5k. Even if we go by the other way and say strongest build is 30% stronger than this build, the weakest class/stat combo would need to hit 26,9k benchmark. And as of now, only power soulbeast is around that. Most powerful builds for other class/stat combos reach around 29k territory, making them 18% weaker than weeber or weeber is 20,2% stronger than 2nd worst class/stat combo (power reaper). And within 10% from combos' strongest version, there's dozens of alternative weapon combo/spec versions. But you'll never see them 'cause they're not potentially best. And ofc the real difference between them isn't measured and published by anyone since people who can pull off 99% of any build's potential are only benching best alternatives.

Save for Kitty, but she can't do it again before august BP, not to mention that she's not skilled enough for pulling off optimal rotations properly as her raid skill level playing any class is better than 80-90% of players but worse than top 10% (except for DH as top 5th%). And she's horrible at weeber and conditeef. So all Kitty can do is show how builds would work at generally expectable pug skill level. But guess there's still need for her stuffs since some people keep exaggerating the difference between meta and alternatives
grinds teeth
. But videos of tests will be on request, not autoloaded, not before August.

When it comes to healing and chronos, chronos are the indebatable boonbot, especially chaos chronos. If chronos provide boons, it only leaves might for other healers, which opens a few possibilities.
  1. 1 good mightbot druid and a pure healer of choice.
  2. 2 bad druids
  3. 2 FBs/rene/heralds/ healengis/scourges/good ele healers

Druid's main benefit is providing might for 10 when it provides might and with good druid and 2 chaos chronos, boons are covered and 2nd healer can be anything, preferably something defensive for better failsafe against mechanics.Unfortunately, incomprehensibly average druid performs at 35-40% of good druid's potential. According to what Kitty's been seeing on Gw2 Raidar, they provide max 8-9 mights per squad member, or 16-18 for 5 if comparing 2 druids to 2 other healers. And as it happens, rene would output more or same easier. FB can easily provide that on anything that isn't VG, Matt or Xera. Healengi can do it, too. And for scourge, mightbotting is child's play. Chaos chronos can provide the rest, as well as peoples' self might-gen. Only benefits druids have are some extra utilities for a couple bosses (some other classes have those utilities too) and spirits.

Let's see.
  1. Healengi has PD available to replace spotter.
  2. FB ensures maximum quickness uptimes and shares dozens of blocks to defend against mechanics.
  3. Healrene can bring AP to replace spotter, as well as ensure full alacrity.
  4. Healscourge provides Vampiric Presense to compensate a bit for spotter. And with healscourges, there's no time spent on ressing as they pull downed people out of danger zone and essentially aoe auto-res them with a couple key presses. Not that it'd be easy to get downed with those barriers. And dat sweet epicleave ^^

Yes yes, the 20% damage gaps are still a bit huge, but pulling out more of the potential of lowly-potent class can still easily outperform average-played meta (especially average DHs. Sorry about hate but Kitty just can't comprehend average DH and druid numbers she sees on gw2 raidar as those players would do way better as power renes or deadeyes or condisoulbeasts or kitless holos).

Sorry about long wall of text. Boring PCless night is boring.

..................... ...Do you really think... Healer Engi can be a viable AND not only viable build, but a build that can REPLACE another Healing options.................

ALRIGHT EVERYONE, IF YOU SAW A HEALER ENGI PUGGING (WICH IS LIKE SEEING A DODO AROUND), WOULD YOU ALLOW HIM TO JOIN THE SQUAD?, EVEN IF THAT MEANT HAVING 300 HPS AS HEALER OR A 4K HEALER THAT CAN ONLY BURST ONCE EACH 20 SECS....

......I have tried to play the build, and let me tell you, that my guild leader kicked me for tryharding with such illusionary heal...

If condi engi is gone, what in your right mind makes you think someone will play this bulls**t water field reliant build!?!?

Sounds like you just didn't know how to play heal-engi. Kitty spent a good time figuring out the best possible build for it and no, it doesn't blast water fields.The optimal boonbot-healengi spams mortar 5, elixir gun 45, shield 45 and camps med kit 1 otherwise (it's a really under-rated heal despite it's power). Try-harders can also try blasting fire fields from flame turret toolbelt with elixir gun 4, mortar toolbelt and shield 4. This build keeps about about 16-18 might for the sub (in other words about 80-90 total, equal to what many pug druids bring), full fury, good protection and brings PD.PD version: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqelsThaqYVVwdLQ7FLGGUYA+b+F3fI2A46j/OB-jBiXQBh6EAgQle66BAQP9ANUJ4RU/BA7PIHlBkCwvZWA-eOptimal healing version: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqelsThaqYVVwdLQ7FLGGUYA+b+F3fI2wYOexKA-jBiXQBh6EAorHAACV6Bg9HaoSwjo+jcUGQP9AkCwvZWA-e

This build works best when couple with a good druid with healers in separate subs for optimal boon distribution.

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@Obtena.7952 said:That's correct, it isn't but that's not resulting in a lack of diversity. We don't lack diversity ... Almost any comp can complete the content. We lack a wide range of optimal comps ... and it's arguable that it's necessary in the first place.

@Samnang.1879 said:dont fix things that aren't broke

@Ayrilana.1396 said:It’s a community issue as people are confusing viable with optimal. It’s nothing new as they’ve been doing that since the game launched. I remember certain classes and builds being excluded from dungeon runs simply because they were not meta.

This is simply an issue that players have created and imposed on themselves.

I always ask myself, what if ANet would release a ground breaking balance patch tomorrow which would completely shift the Raid/T4 Fractals META much like it is today, but completely towards the other side of the classes, if all these people that I've quoted above, would reply with: ah I don't care, it was about time; or if they would be the very first to complain how OP Revenants, Thieves and Necros are now, and that they need to be nerfed very soon???Cause I see why they say these things, and to be fairly honest, I don't want to have homogeneity either, it's the actual opposite of diversity, but I do want diversity in classes/builds over time! Taking raids for instance: making Eles, Mesmers, Warriors and Rangers from tomorrow onwards viable at best; Making Revenants, Thieves, Necros and in a lesser extend: Guardians and Engineers optimal for all raids! And don't worry, they don't have to reign for the years to come (it wouldn't even be that unfair, as do these other classes pretty much since the beginning of the raids), but at least have them to be kings for the upcoming months/half year! And then we'll see who's next. Cause, these very long sitting mandatory classes in optimality, is just getting ridiculous. It's already to a point that ppl advice new players to main only certain classes right now, so they won't find themselves into nasty spots (including community rejections) later if they plan to dive into the PvE endgame. It should never be like that!

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I wouldn't care ... because the ultimate reality is that there is SOMETHING that is optimal in this game... that means their are lots of things that aren't. When people QQ this or than isn't the best, they just aren't understanding the game they are playing. The meta has shifted a few times but make no mistake, it's definitely not PLANNED as to what it shifts to.

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@Gravenz.6258 said:

This said I'm pretty sure players wont quit, on the contrary it would bring something new, people would not be cornered to those two specs anymore. Thus bringing more interest into healing and tanking for other players thus more flexibility in parties.

The day when they added might to druid. PS war became bs, more than half my friends who raid had quit the game... ???

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@Talindra.4958 said:

This said I'm pretty sure players wont quit, on the contrary it would bring something new, people would not be cornered to those two specs anymore. Thus bringing more interest into healing and tanking for other players thus more flexibility in parties.

The day when they added might to druid. PS war became bs, more than half my friends who raid had quit the game... ???

That's too bad, because nothing happened that made them irrelevant, EVEN this. If you play to the meta, you better be willing to swap whenever the game changes. That's why GW2 is awesome ... because you don't have to worship the meta. Too bad your friends drank the kool-aid.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

This said I'm pretty sure players wont quit, on the contrary it would bring something new, people would not be cornered to those two specs anymore. Thus bringing more interest into healing and tanking for other players thus more flexibility in parties.

The day when they added might to druid. PS war became bs, more than half my friends who raid had quit the game... ???

That's too bad, because nothing happened that made them irrelevant, EVEN this. If you play to the meta, you better be willing to swap whenever the game changes. That's why GW2 is awesome ... because you don't have to worship the meta. Too bad your friends drank the kool-aid.

Essentially yes.. those who stay usually adjust to changes. But arena net must be careful how they deal with changes. It's a trend similar from gw1 skill balance can do good and bad at the same time and needs careful adjustment

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@Talindra.4958 said:

This said I'm pretty sure players wont quit, on the contrary it would bring something new, people would not be cornered to those two specs anymore. Thus bringing more interest into healing and tanking for other players thus more flexibility in parties.

The day when they added might to druid. PS war became bs, more than half my friends who raid had quit the game... ???

That's too bad, because nothing happened that made them irrelevant, EVEN this. If you play to the meta, you better be willing to swap whenever the game changes. That's why GW2 is awesome ... because you don't have to worship the meta. Too bad your friends drank the kool-aid.

Essentially yes.. those who stay usually adjust to changes. But arena net must be careful how they deal with changes. It's a trend similar from gw1 skill balance can do good and bad at the same time and needs careful adjustment

Since Anet doesn't care about meta, there isn't any reason for them to tread lightly around people so sensitive to it in the first place. The game isn't designed to cater around people that have meta-think so ingrained in their thinking; retaining players on the fringe of the accepting the game design is a zero sum game. If meta players want the most from the game, they better have a wide range of characters and gear to adjust when it does change. Sounds like your friends did not accept that eventuality.

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It isn't exactly about meta. It's about changing how ppl used to play with their game and characters. Having to adjust, having to deal with it after change. Probably OK for some who doesn't matter what changes..but it does matter for some. Anet needs to consider all that. A bit if changes via expansion is good but not modifying or tampering with skill all the time esp when it's already stable.. for the health of game population. what happen when you give a candy then take it away after. Not many ppl appreciate changes..So it needs to carefully done.

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@Talindra.4958Sounds both unfortunate and ... a weird kind of reaction in a MMO where you barely have to reroll to change position.

To my side of the exprerience, in my guild, it was breath of fresh air to finally have more flexibility. One of our PS was glad to switch to any other damage dealer, and we ran mono-druid on most bosses that allow it, because a good druid with a decent group can pretty much deal with everything on his own (that's just how ridiculously overpowered Druid is).Today since we're pretty much at ease with the 4 first wings, I'm able to make actual tests in Druid+SecondHealer compositions, Scourge and Renegade are excellent healers so far, with their own unique perks. I'm gonna have to wait for next weak to try out FireBrand and Engineer, but so far with the results I got, it is pretty much obvious that if you run a second healer in your raid for comfort, any second healer would be more interesting than a druid ~

That's how the game have changed so far, even if they keep denying it in most PUG. The only thing that didn't change is Chrono and it's usually a strawpoll between our mesmer players to know who's gonna tank. Seeing them this annoyed makes me glad that I've never created a mesmer ahah.But even there we're working on a possible FBtank(quickness)/RenegadeHeal(alacrity/might) subgroup composition but nothing tested yet ~

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@Talindra.4958 said:It isn't exactly about meta. It's about changing how ppl used to play with their game and characters. Having to adjust, having to deal with it after change. Probably OK for some who doesn't matter what changes..but it does matter for some. Anet needs to consider all that. A bit if changes via expansion is good but not modifying or tampering with skill all the time esp when it's already stable.. for the health of game population. what happen when you give a candy then take it away after. Not many ppl appreciate changes..So it needs to carefully done.

Again ... I don't get what needs to be considered. Anet makes changes to the game. heck, EVERY game dev studios do it. If game changes for some sensitive players mean they leave the game, they shouldn't AT ALL be playing MMO's in the first place. Stability has nothing to do with it. Devs change games for lots of reasons. Stability doesn't imply it's good as is. Besides, even a bad state of the game reaches equilibrium ... that's not what I would think, a game dev is after

Frankly, what you describe just sounds like people who were completely unwilling to accept a change that they wrongly associated with their characters being somehow less desirable; like they didn't get their fair 'slice' of the pie. Most of the time when people quit because of such weak reasons, there is something much more fundamental going on that they just don't want to accept. I mean ... I think we can all say as reasonable gamers that Druid getting might is not a reason for someone to quit the game if they aren't playing druid. That's silly. There isn't anything to consider there at all, other than the fickle nature of misunderstanding players.

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